Let's Talk...Phallocentricity in Warhammer with Dr Dan

BEFORE YOU GET INTO IT!…. We thought this would be a fun topic to discuss and understand our KZbin friends may well have more in depth knowledge of the Warhammer universe than us. With this in mind no need to get offended if we’ve missed something out or got something wrong in your eyes! Please be kind. It’s meant to be a fun, frivolous discussion that’s all!
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All this time I've avoided any aggro from that crowd, you know the ones... This might be the video to transform my channel into a flaming dumpster fire of angry comments, but I do pray to the Emperor that it doesn't.
Enjoy a very mild discussion with one of my fave academics and Warhammer fans, Dr Dan.
This subject was way out of my comfort zone, but feels good to chat about it and I even got to wax lyrical about Ridley Scott and his mother fixation a little!
What else should we discuss?
Thanks as always to ‪@LUI‬‪@LuisHumanoide‬ for his excellent music, I am the Woodstock to his Snoopy and I hope we get to do the Snoopy dance for a very long time, support and sub to him here: • The Great Port of the ...
My Patreon can be found here! / miramanga

[@michaelgrey1351]

"OK, now I'd like to talk about Shadowswords." *Dr Dan reaches off screen for a bottle of whiskey, opens it, drinks directly from the bottle and wipes his lips with the back of his hand* "Right...."

[@agjm-agjm]

Mira’s content running the gamut from cerebral and high-brow to silly, fun and a little bit puerile, often being all of the above, is actually very much on brand IMHO.

[@miramanga]

Emperor bless you 😂

[@euansmith3699]

"cerebral and high-brow to silly, fun and a little bit puerile" That's a great description of all of 40k 😄😄😄

[@studentjohn]

I think I'd ask Dr Dan: The Emperor is the sort-of ultimate representative of the fantasy that Astartes represent (if we choose to view them that way). He's the big father figure, and he ends up, after messing up as a parent big time, eternally frozen to the spot, cut out of any active role in the world, but never dies. Could you read that as a fantasy of never having to deal with the death of a parent, or having to confront them over their failures, but still leaving home and having your own strength and identity more or less just handed to you?

[@JimCarr]

This was brilliant! As a long time fan of 40K, the phallocentricity (that's a new word for me! :D ) of the setting has always been one of the unspoken truths - rarely recognized or given much attention. Thank you for bringing it up - the idea that 40K is so grim dark because its sooo male dominated is fascinating! Great video, please ignore any idiots spouting hate and continue with this subject! Can't wait to see more of Dr Dan, especially if he is going to talk about one of my favourite factions, the Eldar!

[@Yandarval]

How apt. The light going off when talking about the 'nids. Thats the Shadow in the Warp at work :D

[@PanPaladin]

Loved this discussion! I'm excited for more content like this. I think 40k suffers especially from the issue of people not understanding that it's a parody. The same people who watch Robocop and come out of it thinking cops are cool are the people who come to 40k and think that the Emperor is really smart and Space Marines are just cool dudes with big guns, and that any bad stuff is an unfortunate consequence of the universe rather than a satirical comment on their idols. 40k, the Imperium especially, satirizes real fascist aesthetics and propaganda in order to show the audience how silly it is when you think about it at all. But those same aesthetics and propaganda have and continue to actually work on people in our real world because, well, they *are* cool. And that appeal does manage to blind people to the actual evil being wrought (when in our real world) and the parodic joke being told (when in 40k). The Emperor presents himself as a shining golden god, a man of unparalleled might and genius. But in reality he's no more insightful or clever than anyone else. His arguments against religion sound like they came from Reddit, his entire plan for a galaxy wide crusade is undone by one complication, and he was so bad at communicating his desires that his legacy ends up being the opposite of what he wanted! From the moment he experimented on his first kidnapped orphan to the moment he was stuck on the golden throne, to 10,000 years later of all of humanity living under a totalitarian, fascist theocracy so unimaginably brutal as to be comedic, all that the Emperor and his lackeys have ever managed to do is fail. Because all fascism does is fail. It sells its followers this myth of invincibility, of efficiency and golden ages, and it can't ever deliver. And the Imperium is meant to show that at such a ludicrous scale that it makes you laugh. People die of starvation waiting in line to file paperwork, entire planets are forgotten about because of rounding errors in hand tabulated ledgers, and skill and integrity are next to worthless because the entire society is centered around blind loyalty and fanatical devotion as the only two traits worth having. That being said, unfortunately Games Workshop has decided in recent years that this commentary is too edgy and was limiting sales numbers, so there has been a noticeable downtick in books and short stories about how horrible and dumb the Imperium is, and more about phwoar crickey marines blasting nasty aliens with their cool guns. Which in turns means the chuds who unironically want to live in the Imperium feel empowered to be very loud about it on the internet, and that in turns makes the hobby feel very hostile and push many potential hobbyists and players away, which is a damn, damn shame. Fortunately creators like yourself, like Arbitor Ian, like Snipe and Wib, and many others are doing an excellent job of showing how enjoyable 40k can be as a setting and as a game, and helping to show people not to their sci-fi stories and plastic army men so seriously as to forget that it's meant to be fun, and funny.

[@Yurt_enthusiast7]

That GW chooses to push a safer narrative nowadays based on profit margins instead of the earlier anti establishment one is a good representation of capitalism leading to fascim

[@keepcalmandre-roll5480]

Also love to know Dr Dan’s thoughts on the emperor in 40K being just a corpse used to enforce the “imperial truth” and that he’s been dead since the end of the Heresy.

[@haircutdeluxe]

Doesn’t reality have a phallocentric bias though? The stick is the first extension of our reach. The club kept us safe. The beam supported our house.

[@xen3534]

If you want to see phalluses everywhere, you can. If you want to see vaginas everywhere, also very easy. It a very reductive and bias view that tells more about those professing it than about the subject of study ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

[@earnestwanderer2471]

I think you’ve glossed over the fact that the Primarchs weren’t raised by the Emperor in any sense. They were snatched away as “infants” and generally “raised” in the most horrific settings imaginable. The Emperor only recovered his clone/children after they had been traumatized by their “upbringing” and perhaps irreparably damaged.

[@miramanga]

But didn’t he send them away?

[@euansmith3699]

Well, he claims his children were carried off by Chaos in the night. 🤔 @@miramanga

[@miramanga]

WHAT?!! That makes me so sad!!@@euansmith3699

[@euansmith3699]

@@miramanga It might be the Emperor's version of "Dingos ate my babies". I'm sure, every Birthday the Emperor gets 18 "Galaxy's Worst Dad" mugs as presents.

[@earnestwanderer2471]

Not sure there’s a hard and fast answer, but in one of the Heresy novels it suggests that time-traveling Word Bearers stole them with the help of the Chaos gods. Why send them to inhabited planets and not just teleport them into the center of the Sun? That’s easy, because Chaos wanted them to be traumatized and flawed so that some of them would be open to rebellion. Chaos wants chaos. They don’t want to win because then the chaotic war is over, they want the Chaos to continue eternally.

[@Sweaty_Ken]

That's what I like about Warhammer, the phallocentricity, it allows me to forget for a brief moment, the times my mother pointed at my junk when I was a child and laughed.

[@SoteksChunkyProphet-dg7io]

Ooof, that sucks man.

[@Im-the-greatest]

"big muscley men hitting eachother with bigger heavier swords" Yes

[@alexianthedragon]

Fascinating topic, I'd love to hear more on the social issues in Warhammer 40k from similar guests.

[@euansmith3699]

I've expected that GW would use the Cicatrix Maledictum to spit the setting in two separate threads. With the Imperium Nihilus being home to the Grim-dark; leaning in to the "there are no good guys" satire; while the Imperium Sanctus becomes the home to the more heroic, family friendly lore. It is great seeing a discussion video where the guest is given space to express themselves without being interrupted by the host. Nice work, Mira, and Dr Dan is good at staying on his point.

[@KoppoKen]

I'd love a discussion/exploration of class and perception of class in 40k, from Orks morphing into a pastiche of football hooigans and then morphing into something more general to a pervasive feeling of "those at the top" being generally useless snobby gits to the tau being hoodwinked be biology and the necrons having a feudal system baked into thier code I think it would be a fun dive.

[@meynypilgyno]

Enjoyed that: fun to come at things from an unexpected tangent

[@mutatorbeam8368]

I love Dr Dan’s point about space marines being a pre-pubescent boy’s idea of what a real man is. The pre-pubescent boy that’s still in me can relate! Dr Dan would be a great addition to the 40K KZbin commentariat, and looks very suave to boot.

[@warhomominis]

Great content as always Mira! I love your take on the hobby and the setting, reminding our desensitised brains just how utterly horrible it is! 😀 Would love to have a chat to Dr Dan, and hear his thoughts on gender identity and sexuality in hobby lore.

[@Marshal976]

Thankyou for the interesting video. I would like to hear more from Dr Dan on 40k in the future.

[@keepcalmandre-roll5480]

Loved this, really interesting subject. Mira I really hope you’ve seen the Primaris desolation squad aka the overcompensator marines 😅 Hope you do some more videos on the academia of Warhammer, fascinating stuff :)

[@kayosiiii]

I think this is the favorite of title tracks so far. I recently found myself buying into necromunda just to have female heads for my conversion work, which I think says something about GWs other settings. To me 40K lore looks a lot like scholars in the catholic church in the high middle ages, looking back at imperial Rome using incomplete and imperfect sources. I respectably dissagree with Dr Dan with regards to female space marines, I think there are several ways you could add them to the setting and maintain the satire. Firstly you have two forgotten primarchs, secondly just have somebody discover that they can mitigate one of the existing gene curses by implanting everything into a subject without a Y chromosome (or if you want to be pendantic, without the normal form of the gene in the Y chromosone that kicks off the male development path). It would also demonstrate that being a woman doesn't necessarily help if you are buying into the same patriarchal structure.

[@Smittumi]

Love an artsy dive into the lore. Edit: Wow, what a great talk! Fascinating stuff, thanks for this, Mira. Deffo more Dr Dan!

[@markfellows8590]

Well, that was thought provoking, and very enjoyable, thankyou Mira.

[@SgtBotBot]

Yay for the next episode on Eldar! Would recommend watching 'Craftworld Eldars' interview with Gav Thorpe as a primer

[@terraneaux]

If Mira or Dan have a background in mythology or willingness to do research, it'd be really cool to go over the real-world mythology that inspired a lot of the figures in 40k.

[@tyrant1517]

Enjoyed Listening to Dr Bran 😂

[@Greywolf1066]

Mira is renaissance !

[@miramanga]

Yay and also what?!!

[@Greywolf1066]

@@miramanga music, broadcasting et cetera, quintessential polymath.

[@miramanga]

@@Greywolf1066 gee!!! Thank you

[@TYPHON13KTA]

Very interesting talk. But keep in mind there are Plenty of important females in 40k. The sisters of silence, sisters of battle, guards women, in The begging of the HH remembrancers were mainly female. There is even same sex couples. I can’t remember the last book I read that didn’t have very important female roles. Spears of the emperor was told through a female. In Legion a HH book by Dan Abnett (a very fun read btw) there is a guard regiment that’s controlled by small groups of teenage girl psykers! The deeper you explore the lore you will see more representation in the grimdark than you might expect😊 it’s really fun to get to see someone so new learning about the horrifying parody that is 40k

[@miramanga]

Just finished Legion was great!

[@toasthammer]

Really interesting watch! One of the reasons I really enjoy the Adeptus Mechanicus (my favorite faction) is their complete uncaring attitude towards gender, race, etc. There are lots of examples of well written, badass, clever woman characters in their books and lore and even conceptually feels (at least to me) a lot more acceptance with trans identity, anti-heteronormative politics, and gender fluidity with their transhuman nature. All whilst being the grimmest darkest horrors the galaxy has ever seen 😂

[@KarlKingz]

That's so true, ironically they are the epitome of inclusive humanity, because they have discarded all differences.

[@PanPaladin]

"Techpriest, what is your gender?" "I am a servant of the Omnissiah!" "No, I mean are you a boy or a girl?" "I am shining steel and impeccable cogitation!" "No, I mean what's in your pants?" "A Neutron Laser!"

[@The_Crimson_Fucker]

Everything you've said here is your complete self-projection into the setting. 40K more or less completely ignores the subject _as a matter of general policy_ , GW has generally refused to touch the subject of sex in 40K since...like...the '80s and shown no willingness to change their position on that. With that, the only entities in all of Warhammer cannon that have ever come close to any kind of gender-ambiguity have been _literal soul raping daemons_ . "are you a boy or a girl" I...genuinely don't think anyone in the history of the Imperium has ever walked up to a Magos and asked them what they identify as...if for no other reason because the most likely response to that would be to have a picture-book on chromosomes delivered to your next of kin. You know...on account of the fact that evidently nobody in your entire genetic lineage could be reasonably expected to be literate.

[@HistoritorJimaldus]

@@The_Crimson_FuckerAdMech has canon nonbinary characters

[@euansmith3699]

Nonbinary? Like Hexidecimal? 🤔😄👍 @@HistoritorJimaldus

[@sodinc]

Very reasonable analysis, I think. Glad to hear that there are people that apply scientific methods to our hobby 😊

[@studentjohn]

I do think that the Grimdark is, very openly, a satire, and an examination of the failings of that sort of 'hyper-male fixes everything by hitting clear-cut bad guys' ideal. And... yes, if you take away that aspect you're destroying it's power to be satire and criticise that ideal.

[@TheDuke07]

Great topic!

[@michaelgrey1351]

Hi everybody! Hi Dr Dan!

[@kaatheserpent1199]

great video as always

[@terraneaux]

I do actually agree that the Imperium is incredibly phallocentric. Do not agree about the other factions though, besides orks, I suppose.

[@Thedagda801]

Brilliant interview Mira

[@satinthrone]

*cheers the fellow Space Elf fan*

[@Yandarval]

Mira. Pleas could you turn down the music a little. As it competes with your singing and almost drowns it out.

[@miramanga]

Ok

[@earnestwanderer2471]

Second this, didn’t really even register that you were singing.

[@davydatwood3158]

Was it mentioned what Dr. Dan is a doctor of? If so I missed it, but it kind of impacts the way I might ask a question. There's not a vast amount of utility in asking him about, say, Tyranid biology if his area of study is sociology.

[@earnestwanderer2471]

So tempting to get drawn into the female Space Marine argument, but I’ll pass on that quagmire.

[@earnestwanderer2471]

Oh, and unicorns are phallic symbols.

[@jackdigan6024]

Super interesting video

[@stoneosborne9247]

ICBMs are also happy that war has evolved beyond clubs. Same with the nuclear warheads they carry. Thank God we don't use clubs in war anymore, though.

[@OldManRogers]

He looks like Aragorn which is why he loves elves 🙂

[@Panta8472]

this was really interesting! i am a little late but Dr Dan's remarks about the disfunction of spacemarines and being gendered as male etc made me think of Lord of the Flies. I wonder if that would be a good comparison/something to think about wrt space marines. as a specifically gendered story (upper class british boarding school boys) i imagine there are some parallels?

[@anno-fw7xn]

a intertsting topic! afther the lore we have right know we know spacmarine are male sex, but ther no reason that ther is no feamale genderd spacemarine chapter, it would make a lot of sanse in the setting. as we all know gender is just social konstructre.

[@graemebeaton8019]

Such an interesting video! Lots of great points which make a lot of sense to me! Please make more of these kind of vids. My take away from this is that 40k is such a horrible place because the emperor was a terrible dad. That’s just brilliant. Not really a huge fan anymore of the universe as it is so macho and filled with characters that act like spoilt teenagers. Love your content anyway!

[@SuperCosmicSpaceMagnet]

The issue I have with Dan's argument is that Space Marines are portrayed as heroic by GW. The narrative of "Space Marines being ultra macho and the Emperor's big plan ultimately failing because of his complete failure to be a good parent or person" is a great read on the setting, and it's what I want to be case too. It is undermined by GW's own presentation though: If you look at basically any Space Marine artwork it's always a superhero (possibly even with outright angelic features) battling against something utterly monstrous. Likewise for the Emperor - I haven't seen any Big E artwork since Blanche that depicted the Emperor as anything less than a messianic figure. Deeper reading can give the nuance that supports Dan's opinion, but if you aren't diving into the Black Library catalogue then the tone of Space Marines is absolutely that they're the heroes of the setting. Hell, even the hyperfixation on primarchs of late is pretty much turning the setting into WWE. Brother Hogan bashing Macho Marine Randy Savage over the head with the power chair. I really am glad that Black Library content is becoming egalitarian. I'm super excited to read Deathworlder, and female Cadians as part of the basic box kit is such a huge step in the right direction. I just want to see more of that change coming into the codexes/boxes/promotional material.

[@CallumFinlayson]

I'm late as usual, for some reason I thought this was tonight rather than last night -- it feels like Dr Dan could have gone on for hours longer about this A few things that jump to mind that either weren't mentioned or were only lightly touched on -- the significance of the differences in depiction between the different 40k media (tabletop, novels, RPGs, computer games, animation) especially how some of the novels are written; the different branches of the Adepta Sororitas playing into different stereotypes/archetypes, particularly the Famulous who are basically 50% Bene Gesserit, but also the whole sexy-nazi-nun-dominatrix vibe; GW struggle to know what to do with Slaanesh, she ought to be one of the most varied & interesting chaos gods, but most depictions of her & her followers just seem to be either "let's be edgy & shock people" or "hur-hur-boobies", and completely ignoring the most important things -- like the crab claws. Thinking about D&D it's worth remembering that back in the mid-late-80s WFRP had neither the chainmail bikini stereotypes, nor the same overt phallocentricity; and at the same time as 40k was launching D&D was going from 1e to 2e, which saw a push for it being "safer" in some senses, and more family friendly in various ways (cue the "angry mothers from heck"), so a slight shift away from the chainmail bikinis of 1e D&D (and pre-1e, let's not forget some of the young ladies depicted had forgotten to don even the most diaphanous bralet, there were actual nipples -- the horror!) to saying women can be heroes too, just that their boobs (while still big) shouldn't be quite so on display (plunge-cut robes for sorceresses, mini skirts, long flowing hair, and high heels all remained ubiquitous while dungeon-crawling) Lastly, there's one of the most iconic images from the earliest days of 40k, Stephen Tappin's Sister Sin -- the eponymous SoB in boob-plate power armour (complete with spiked nipple!) killing a space marine with her big phallic bolter, drawn so that she's obviously powerful & dominant whereas he's small and feeble, she wins because she's more masculine than he is despite also being overtly feminine at the same time, if we could see her feet in the picture I'd bet she'd even be wearing high heels!

[@Mortys_Toilet_Attendant]

If a Daemon is making you into a living harp by ripping the tendons out of your back it probably doesn’t matter what gender you identify with. Welcome to the grimdark!

[@christopherkraken7625]

Blimey!

[@colinmiddleton8127]

Interesting video, thank you. I find it somewhat ironic that this phallocentric nightmare has come about because of a woman! I've been listening to some interviews with GW founders wherebthey talked about the nature of the Imperium being a satirical response to Thatcher's Britain. I'm also happy to speak with Dr Dan if he wishes.

[@6dragondaddy913]

But we all know Thatcher's avatar in 40k is Ghazkull Mag Uruk Thraka...

[@novaprospects]

There's a lot of assertions here that Dr Dan bases his views on that appear to based off that twist the reality of the 40k lore to shoehorn ideas of phallocentricity... 1) Almost immediately to say "Space Marines don't actually need women in any capacity" is untrue. Most obviously if there is zero child birth, there is no mankind, and the Astartes' days are numbered. This goes without mentioning the heaps of incredibly powerful women that operate in every type of role outside of being an actual Space Marine within the Imperium. 2) To say all the Chaos Gods "all seem to be male somehow" is laughable. Please explain to me how Tzeentch looks male. Slaanesh is literally also referred to as "she who thirsts" by Dr Dan's favourite faction the Aeldari, and appears in most of the fanart and representations as female. Arguably Slaanesh is the only Chaos God that in fanart you could easily assign a gender to, that being female. The Chaos Gods all are grotesque abominations and to assign gender seems to be disingenuous to what they actually represent. 3) The Orks "Boyz" is said to be a translation for the word they use to refer to one another. They are literally a fungus. Again, to try and assert a gender role to these beasts seems disingenuous. When you think of a fair description of the Orks, something along the lines of "aggressive, brutal, bloodthirsty, savage, warlike, ignoble, technologically inept, reproducing asexually", the Greenskins represent those characteristics in all that they are, and fit the setting perfectly. 4) Every other faction is either asexual (Astartes, Orks, Necrons, Tyranids, Machnincus), or gender mixed (Aeldari, Drukari, Tau, Leagues of Votann, Imperial Guard) in exception of arguably one, the Sisters of Battle. The SoB are still human, whereas the Astartes are not. In many ways the SoB are more of a powerhouse than the Astartes with their close ties to the Ecclesiarchy. Does this call into prominence a discussion about gynocentricity in 40k? 5) With regards to technology being used such as drones, yes, that does exist in Warhammer (look at the Tau). Comparatively, they are lightyears ahead in many ways with their advancements in science and culture. This is what enables them to even have the slimmest fighting chance of survival within the galaxy considering they are an atom sized faction comparatively.... If you skip over the incredibly important part of the 40k lore as to why new technology is not employed and conisdered heresy within the Imperium, you could make that argument regarding why "might shouldn't always be right".... With this in mind, I believe it's prudent to look at 40k as a whole when making assertions. Without going on too much, while I found the dialogue interesting, it does appear to be trying to shoehorn a narrative or argument that in many cases doesn't exist. To put the Astartes under a microscope and then use the view to define the entirety of 40k as phallocentric again, seems disingenuous. Perhaps the better question is, is why is there more content produced by GW that is along the lines of the Astartes and big shiny toys of destruction? And it's simply because, that's what a majoirty of the audience wants, as that is what sells. To try and change that would be financial suicide for GW. Not to mention I think more and more people these days are more vocal about all things being influenced by the "holier than tho" miniority of academics who like to have their tenticles to sweep far and wide into all things written, spoken, sung, drawn or filmed. In a universe that encompasses all that is war, yes, everything is big, over the top, and constantly on the prowl for more carnage, but that is literally the point of 40k. It's absurd and unrealistic. It's also part of the charm for many, myself included. If these qualities means some will define 40k as male-orientated or phallocentric than they can make those assertions. Personally I try to avoid going down the rabbit hole. Today I'll make the exception I suppose!

[@miramanga]

But did you like the theme song?

[@novaprospects]

@@miramanga 'twas marvellous!

[@miramanga]

@@novaprospects phew!

[@Kolyarut]

Obviously I'm not Dan, but a couple of counterpoints on his behalf; 1) No counterpoint here, this is true. 2) This seems a bit disingenuous - Khorne and Nurgle have never been referred to as anything but male. Tzeentch has had alternate titles thrown out there, but is near-universally referred to as male. Even Slaanesh is only referred to as female by the Eldar, and is typically described as androgynous (or by the obsolete/stigmatising term "hermaprodite"). They may not be physical entities but there has never been a serious attempt made to depict them as anything but male or nothing. 3) This one really doesn't fly. They're a group of male presenting creatures with male voices, he/him pronouns, they're known as "boyz" and "nobz". They're a case in point for a species with no sex but a very obvious single gender identity - with the single exception of the Blood Bowl cheerleaders, and Blood Bowl is its own thing. 4) A typical termagant or hormagaunt doesn't have a defined sex or the level of self-awareness to have a gender identity, but Dan specifically pointed out the dominatrices and norn queens, to which we could also add the tervigon and every ranged bio-weapon, whose function exists solely to birth live young on the battlefield. So, no gender for these, but a definite sex. Your "gynocentricity" comment about SoB is not made in good faith - you know they're a single faction in a game with... thirty two, going by a quick count on the GW site. 5) Nothing further to add here. The last point I'll make is a reply to your "that's what a majority of the audience wants" - how would you know? Who asked? GW notoriously don't do market research, and what sells has so much to do with gameplay balance, inertia, what's promoted, what's even sold in their stores (would you like to buy an Intercessor squad we have here on the shelf, or a finecast Drukhari unit that we would offer to order in for you but is actually out of production), and other factors. It's been remarked by multiple sources that the success of the SoB revamp absolutely blew them away, despite the fact people had been asking for it for years. Hopefully none of that came across as too hostile, but I thought there was enough factual inaccuracy here that it was worth a reply. Definitely don't want to escalate into an argument in Mira's comments, though, so I'll leave it there, and offer you the final word if you do want to reply.

[@novaprospects]

@Kolyarut no you don't come across hostile to me, I hope my original comment is taken in the same light. Thank you for the interesting points. I do have some questions in the following response, but in a similar vain, please don't feel you have to respond! It's more to illuminate my thought process :) 1)... 2) Interesting! I haven't devoured as much of the official GW lore on the Chaos Gods as I would have liked but as I say, my understanding is that they are simply entities that each represent of a range the more negative human emotions and characteristics. With that in mind, personally it seems to me their is little point in attempting to assign a specific gender to them - it is irrelevant. 3) I'd be curious to know how you would represent the Greenskins? They need to be big, they need to be feral, they need to be gruff - otherwise by their own nature they would snuffed out by a colleague who is bigger and 'arder. "Nobz" is a shortened name for "nobility," no? As in higher up the food chain? 4a) I agree with what you regarding the Tyranids, but similar to the Greenskins that is simply their narrative derived makeup. That's what makes them what they are. They rapidly reproduce to evolve to secure the next meal and to counter threats to the hivemind. Isn't that cool? Again, what would be the change here? Is the idea they should be renamed? 4b) Not sure where you've gotten 32 factions from? Unless you're counting the individual Astartes legions? In which case that figure is also counting the 6 orders of the SoB? So just shy of 1/5th of that total figure? The comment was made a bit of tongue-in-cheek yes, but to me if people want female Astartes but we already have an all-female faction in power armour with superhuman abilities and shoot bolters and have a whole range of unique lore, abilities, equipment, variety of vehicles and play a keystone role in the 40k I'm not sure how the SoB aren't ticking the box? And how do I know that's what the audience wants? I'm just going off the fact the scene has been set in 40k and while it continues to progress, the company has reportedly brought in £151 million in profit in 2021 alone. If the writing is not on the wall with regards to GW having cooked up something with 40k that their audience enjoys with that figure alone I'm not sure what else there is to go off. I wholeheartedly agree that GW are slow to pick up what people are putting down - almost every faction they decide to update has been met with huge success! I think the Drukari went a decade or so without a proper update? I don't think a long-awaited SoB update is testament to anything other than GW dragging their heels. Sure, there's room for more but that's what makes 40k so great. I'm really excited to hear what the future holds. I hope to see it grow and adapt organically, and I hope everyone can find their place in the in the grim darkness of the far future.

[@Kolyarut]

The thing you have to remember about the Eldar is that they're not real. ...I should explain! War is unbearable to the Aeldari. Their emotions run so intensely, they literally cannot experience the nightmare of battle without being overcome and overwhelmed. They simply can't process the emotions involved, so they don't. They adopt war masks - they dissociate from themselves and create a battle persona that will fight for them, which can (usually) be discarded at the end of combat. The Aspect Warriors adopt shared aspects, in reverence to their Phoenix Lords who founded their traditions years ago, and those aspects don't have to match their assigned gender (it's left vague as to whether they literally physically transition, but their indistinguishable-from-magic technology can swap out eye and skin colours like they were makeup, it's fully plausible they're capable of further physical changes too), but regardless, the war mask isn't a real Eldar - it's something they roleplay as until either they move on, or until their war personality becomes so entrenched they forget how to return to their own selves.

[@Lochtain]

As a trans woman, this is a very interesting conversation. The duality/conflict between "this world is fucked up because it lacks a balance of gendered energy/is toxicly masculine" and "I want to make this world a space I am comfortable playing in as a trans woman, where I can see characters who reflect me" is very tricky, but fun!

[@Ms.Whiskertoria]

As a Transwoman who's 40k fan, I just wanted to make sure you know that while the lore says we can't have "Female Space Marines" that doesn't stop us from having Women as Space Marines they just have to be Transwomen.

[@Lochtain]

@@Ms.Whiskertoria oh, for sure, we can do what ever we want with the lore of our own projects. I've done several smaller projects with FemMarines, but the larger discussion is still interesting.

[@filteredjc4653]

Women prefer tyranids to space marines. So to paraphrase Dr Lecter, 'what is the significance of the tyranid?'

[@edarnold2851]

Mira rules

[@tinfoilhat4417]

This feels like a subject you could spend hours digging into, please get Dr Dan back on! It often feels like a chicken or egg situation, is the subject matter natuarally toxic or is it just that sometimes you run into an absolute chud that doesn't get that space marines are assholes and the emperor is a mega facist and that turns folk off. Like all nerd hobbies seem to attract assholes that give everyone a bad name unfortunately. Personally I like the edginess of 40k and would rather it stayed that way but then I'm a Chaos player who loves playing the heel lol. I'm fully aware of how shitty the chaos space marines are but that is part of the fun. It baffles me that people want to see themselves in Warhammer characters honestly, that doesn't feel like the point to me but to each their own.

[@euansmith3699]

I'm sure it isn't just a problem in nerd hobbies. I'm sure that jock spaces are plagued by gatekeepers and toxic types; but, as a nerd, I'll never know for sure 🤔😄

[@tinfoilhat4417]

@@euansmith3699 Yeah this is definetely a thing in other spaces, football fans with less than savoury opinions have always been around lol. It just feels like "Warhammer fan that doesn't see any issue with dressing like a commisar in public" goes alongside the "MTG player who doesn't shower or own deodorant" stereotype. I don't really want associated with these kinds of people but they're around and I don't know what we can do about them. Like I feel if someone is so far gone they don't want women playing the toy soldier game then it's a bigger issue than we are qualified to deal with 😅 Luckily they seem to be in the minority and most people I've met in the hobby are pretty well adjusted adults

[@KarlKingz]

What a cool vid, it would be good to see more academic dives into 40k. It would be cool if the Imperium more accurately reflected humanity as a whole. All genders, colours, relationship preferences etc. That would make it more realistic and immersive imo

[@miramanga]

Glad you enjoyed Karl ❤️🙏

[@KarlKingz]

Cheers Mira, it's really cool you had this convo. I want to see WH grow and everyone likes to see themselves, their experiences reflected in the art that inspires them. There are tons of strong important female characters in the lore, especially in humanity outside of the Astartes. The Imperial Guard are a great example. It's only the poster boy Astartes who are made almost exclusively by guys, for guys, and our image of the most badass dudes who don't need women etc. Which causes a lot of real world women's eyes to glaze over because it's not relatable, and rightly so lolz. So why not also have a female faction and lore created by women for women while also working on keeping the wider universe more blended and inclusive? Why not have 40k romance novels even? It would only grow the IP which is a win win. That seems like the fairest thing to me.

[@oga-booga]

But the point of the imperium is that's its kinda shit?

[@Jimbo818]

Zyscrotes innit.

[@thesmilyguyguy9799]

:{ D

[@alexandrebelinge8996]

Sisters of silence ... Right ! Wish GW would rectify the narrative a bit... Baby steps edit: is there even 1 regular woman writer for Black Library, you can't change the narrative if you don't have any diversity on your team. It's not terrible but it could be better.

[@miramanga]

There are a good few and @ArbitorIan and I have an interview with Anna Stephens coming very soon!

[@Ms.Whiskertoria]

As a Transwoman who's 40k fan, I just wanted to make sure you know that while the lore says we can't have "Female Space Marines" that doesn't stop us from having Women & Nonbinary Space Marines they just have to be AMAB Transpeople, until such time as we can have AFAB people included which I really think should have happened already.

[@earnestwanderer2471]

Sorry, one more inane comment. I’m not sure that many people today understand how completely androcentric (ooh, big word, Ducky) the whole gaming world was... say back in the 70’s-80’s. There were simply NO females involved. So the target audience was pretty much exclusively male, the designers and developers were all male, so the products were created by males, to appeal to males... Which, no doubt, explains the configuration of Adepta Sororitas upper body armour (dare I say “breastplates”?).

[@user-jq1mg2mz7o]

funnily enough I think even the breast armour has a retroactive explanation now (though I dont think ever explicitly confirmed): the whole "men under arms" loophole would make the ecclesiarchy very concerned about displaying the "woman-ness" of the sororitas, and the ecclesiarchy being what it is they probably took the most obvious, crude, and well, phallocentric way. typical creepy old priests 😂!

[@thetraitorguardsmen.5321]

I'm a gen x Born in 1976. I like to keep things as black and white as possible where it comes to the world round us for me and my kid's. Probably to do with my dislexia. Maybe touching a little bit on the autistic spectrum. Or maybe it's cause I'm a january capricorn. Anyway there was none of this madness when i was a kid. Playing rouge trader in the 80s and 90s. Didn't even cross my mind. my worries was are the Russian's going to bomb us with nuclear weapons. Or Hiv. Anyway as long as no one is banging on my door. Or trying to ram what i see as nonsense down mine and my kid's necks. I'm not bothered what other people think or do. But my kids know the difference between a man and a woman. And that there is many great people. Heroes who are men and women. In the fiction and nonfiction of History of this universe and others. And they all don't have to wear boob armour. Boudicca and Joan of Arc didn't. Now i will go back under my rock with my 40k hobby and 90s way of thinking.

[@HistoritorJimaldus]

Science identified the need to differentiate sex and gender in the 50s when CAIS was discovered - not that that was the subject of the video at all 😂

[@1thgriff]

The primary themes of 40k are based around medieval sytems of governance, knights and traditional knightly values. There is also a strong duality of good vs evil in the theme similar to the stories and romanticization of the european medieval period and the crusade. This gives context for what the story is and what it is not. This was not discussed at all. Yes space marines are men because medieval knights were men. Primarchs are men because the great military leaders in european history were men. Because of this, the stories of the space marines and all of the main space marine characters are exemplars of different male emotions and virtues. Some bad, some good. This is the core of what the lore and game is. The game is primary a malecentric game as a result. War, duty, honor, brotherhood, bravery, loyalty, respect, traditions, oaths and pledges just trigger something primal in a man's lizard brain.To change the lore to fit your worldview would kill the core of the game. If it's not for you, move along.

[@miramanga]

If my channel is not for you - you're respectfully welcome to do the same

[@user-jq1mg2mz7o]

you gotta be high on something if you think 40k is about knightliness in space and not conscious grimderpiness

[@HistoritorJimaldus]

@@user-jq1mg2mz7othe romanticised future of the 41st Millennium!! 😂😂

[@darkfuture3291]

This was great! Such a change from the usual KZbin bs blokes talking about toys. Thank you:)

[@Majorfuckinghero]

I'm all for having women space marines, if it means more inclusivity in the sense that more women and girls will join us in the hobby. The problem being--which I think is glossed over when considering this--is the fact that a female space marine would in no way, shape or form represent a woman, when she has gone through all the enhancement surgery to be on par with her brothers in arms. She would be 8 feet tall, have every organ removed that would "normally" suggest she is a woman. Pumped full of steroids and drugs to enhance her muscles far beyond any normal human capacity, and most likely sound like a man in the end. So the only thing that would distinguish her as female would be her name. Space Marines do almost not represent men either in the end, which is often highlighted in many of the novels. They are far removed from humanity, and often feel superior to those whom they are supposed to protect. There's a concept called "transhuman dread" in 40k, which is something most normal humans feel when they see a Space Marine for the first time, as they are so far beyond any normal human. I just have a hard time imagining anyone feeling "represented" by space marines, if they are also to stay true to the lore with all the enhancement drugs and surgery. If you want to feel more represented, you might want to look into something like the Imperial Guard, which are for the most part just ordinary normal humans. Personally, I really have a hard time understanding this concept of "representation" and why it is so important. This idea that I can't put myself in someone else shoes, because they don't necessarily look like me, I quite frankly almost find offensive, and a detrement to humanity as a whole. That's just my 2 cents at least.

[@HistoritorJimaldus]

I agree with most of what you’ve said here - but re representation, it’s not about being unable to put yourself in another’s shoes if they’re not like you - it’s just nice to see a character that is like you, in a setting you love, as it shows the writers acknowledge the existence of people like you

[@Majorfuckinghero]

@@HistoritorJimaldus But why is that important? If I play an alien race in the tabletop, my personal representation will never ever be acknowledged, and I genuinely don't care about that. Space Marines do not represent normal humans in any capacity. If I really want to feel represented, I am the common man of the Imperium, whose life is worth absolutely nothing. But hey, I'm all for more and better written female characters regardless if that's really what is gonna bring more women to our hobby. I just don't think 'representation' is all that important in any medium personally.

[@HistoritorJimaldus]

@@Majorfuckinghero sure, it’s not important to you - it’s not important to me either, because I’m a white straight cis guy and have had plenty of representation all my life

[@Majorfuckinghero]

@@HistoritorJimaldus That's a weird thing to say. I don't look at a person and go "oh, he represents me because he's male, straight and white." in any media I consume. If anything, it's only the personality of the person I ever feel connected with. I also think this is one of the main reasons for Salamander's having gotten so popular over the last decade. As they are the most human of all the space marine Legions, despite looking the most different.

[@male272]

Let's talk...Uterocentricity in products intended for female markets. I'd love to direct you to an old British series called 'Not The Nine O'Clock News' wherein a young Rowan Atkinson plays the part of a Post Modern social analyst who is deconstructing architecture as only and simply an expression of 'Big Wee Wee' or 'Giant Titty'...the point being that there is a threshold in which 'intelletualizing the Iconography' is simply a meaningless and petty attempt to succor the expense of a useless University degree. People enjoy things, and they enjoy what they enjoy. Shrink your brain, and Ego a bit, and try and find things you can enjoy...life is very short.

[@user-rw2gf3zg1t]

Warhammer 40k has to be gate kept and become more obscure.

[@totalCoolerUsername]

How is this channel this small? Trust me Lady, you will gonna go through YT-roof 🫶