Who were the Cathars?

[@arsec42]

Fun etymological sidenote: the modern dutch word for heretic "ketter" is directly related to "cathar"

[@mnrbrt]

Was about to comment the same! :')

[@ethanweisgard6570]

Same in Danish: “kætter”

[@canonjean-mignon4985]

It’s not related, it’s the same word.

[@LetsTalkReligion]

Did not know this! Thanks!

[@1210CM]

This etymological origin of "cathar" is disputed, and in my mind makes no sense at all. Why would anyone refer to heretics as "the pure" (Cathari/Katharóí)? It is more likely that the Dutch word "ketter" derives from the Middle High German "Ketzer", which means heretic, and in turn probably derives from the German word "Katze" (cat), attributing to the heretics some of the mischievous characteristics of a cat.

[@guybrushthreepwood9071]

In my language the word for 'Cathar' became the word for 'heretic' as a whole. We also have the somewhat cruel saying that 'someone smokes like a cathar' if he/she is a chain-smoker.

[@edim108]

Dutch?

[@alst4817]

What language? The probable etymology of bigot is from les Albigeois; Albigot; bigot i.e. the word for Cathar became synonymous with heretic

[@justsomeguytrynasleep4590]

rooken is dodelijk

[@eyeswideshut1989]

@@edim108 I'm curious to know as well... Also, for whatever reason I find Low German is never factored into much of this but rarely it is. This has significance of which I just don't know- other than that it was spoken by my Austrian family who were targeted during WW2 for extermination (no, we are not "jewish").

[@mariescarth1756]

Load of bs Catholics wanna control and narcissistically condemn people

[@damouno]

Its amazing. Western history focus primarily on crusades vs. Arab Muslims with a nod to sacking of Constantinople. The Crusade against the Cathars..is never ever Mentioned. Like it never happened..slate was wiped clean. Very Brutal !

[@marcmarco5373]

May be for English language countries, but I guarantee that this Crusade against the Cathars is a well- known topics in France. Dozens of books, movies , TV series, etc. It's a well trodden subject believe me ;-)

[@damouno]

@@marcmarco5373 i am very glad then, friend. At least France is keeping the memory alive. Truly this was a most Brutal extermination campaign, conparable with Nazis genocide pogroms of mid-20th century.

[@marcmarco5373]

@@damouno Well compared to a lot of things that happened in the course of history, the Albigesan crusade was quite a minor episode. We tend to look at history with own set of values, but those were not the values of the people who lived in other times. Most Christians at the time would have seen nothing wrong with the extermination of heretics, just as the mongols (to take an example in another time and place) would have seen nothing wrong with the tactics of terror used by Gengis Khan..

[@jeremiahduran7238]

@@marcmarco5373 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, the Catholic Church has bared a lot of bad fruit.

[@marcmarco5373]

@@jeremiahduran7238 At the time; the Church was the Christian Church. Period. In that context, Catholic/Protestant is an anachronism.. And BTW, last time I checked, the Protestant Churches were no slouches at oppressing and mass killing heretics when they saw the need....

[@BoredBookAddict]

You know when you mentioned how diverse the Medieval age was. It would be interesting to see the ways the different Religious orders of the Church practice their faith. Like what makes the spirituality of a Franciscan different from a Dominican. I think it would be an interesting topic. Edit: Beware of viewing the replies. There is a certain "pastor". As what he calls himself. Making Biblical statements and refusing to listen to other faiths. I just wanted to say, that this guy, below, does not represent the entire faith of Christianity. And it saddens me, as a Christian, that there are people who are like this.

[@DJNO4444]

Usually the Franciscans see service to others as a major main way of devotion, while Dominicans see the attainment of knowledge as a main way of devotion

[@skaetur1]

Spoiler: The differences are arbitrary.

[@bojanstare8667]

It is big different between both of them and Chatars. Chatars didn`t whorship christianity. They have followed Zoroaster dualism, the same as Bogomils in Balkan. Even Bogomils from Balkan have teached Chatars.

[@DJNO4444]

@@bojanstare8667 no one was talking about Cathars mate

[@bojanstare8667]

@@DJNO4444 Sorry, some problems with computer. Should be some lines bellow. By the way, video was about Cathars. :-)

[@deyuo3434]

YESS!! Finally there will be a video on Cathars from one of the big religious study channels! I know there is many little pieces of information scattered around but I look forward to hearing it described from someone who has a very good way of expressing information, maybe I will learn something new!

[@tobiaslarsen1014]

Iv'e also been waiting for a video about the Cathars for a long time! I'm looking forward to hear what he has to say about the movement. I find it extraordinarily interesting.

[@thomasmacginnes100]

mebe !

[@joshportie]

Not really religious studies so much as catholic propaganda.

[@jacquelineleitch7050]

Amazing history and the twist at the end!

[@iRedEarth]

"The cathars as we understand them may never have existed" - Ad break One of the few times I've seen an ad break come at a proper cliffhanger, and not clumsily cut in mid sentence, or even mid word. Drama!

[@ruthanneseven]

😹

[@chicososa1017]

I was on the edge of my seat 😂😂😂

[@mariescarth1756]

They believe in reincarnation

[@mariescarth1756]

Their cathar religion more real

[@JoePesciVSBillyBatts]

Growing up in Beziers, this video hit home ! Cathars really are one of the biggest misteries in history. Glad you've covered this topic too !

[@peterfoster8004]

Folk singer, Wizz Jones sings 'The Massacre of Beziers' and perfectly encapsulates the story. kzbin.info/www/bejne/apC2pGema7WemaM

[@adamferencszi797]

Do you still live in beziers ? Is it easy to get around Languedoc by train or bus to visit Cathar sites ?

[@JoePesciVSBillyBatts]

@@adamferencszi797 I don't, and I don't think it is well connected as a lot of sites are pretty remote. Car rental probably is the most viable option

[@francescgarciachillida]

Cathars are in Catalonia. The first time the territory is referred to as Catalonia (Cathalunia originally in latin) is right when the Catars were expelled from southern france. So where would they go? Exactly, right accross the pyrenees where they could take refuge and start a new society in the reconquered muslim land. The Count of catalonia also cointidentially converted to catholicism after the conflict, reaching an agreement with the pope to stop the crusade and let the cathars live as catholic converts in catalonia. The south of france was mostly repopulated with northern franks, even tho some cathars managed to survive and stay but they were few and the biggest amount od them were in catalonia.

[@makingthematrix]

@@adamferencszi797 : Hello, fellow commenter from the past. I came here just to say that I've been to Beziers and many other places in southerm France recently. Trains are a bit expensive but they are a perfect way to travel, and the whole region is just beautiful. To the east, you can go to Nimes and Avignon, to the west you can visit Narbonne, Carcasonne, and Toulouse, and in Toulouse change trains to go to Albi and Rodez. Castres is a bit off-track but it's worth to see as well. And if you have a bit of time, you can go through Narbonne to Perpignan and to Spain, to Barcelona.

[@brezovprut4431]

Catharism seems like it was highly influenced by both social revolt and religious movements like gnosticism, arianism and islamic mysticism (sufism). In fact Sufism helped Ottomans a lot to easly approach "heretic" Christians, like e.g. Bosnian church followers which shared common practices.

[@philly442]

do you know more about Bosnia? I know that the Serbian rules talked to Pope Innocent iii accusing Bosnians of using a form of Bogomils by the Bulgars. But would like to hear the Bosnian perspective if you are.

[@brezovprut4431]

@@philly442 What topics/sources you are interested in? About Bosnian heretical church? Medieval period of Bosnia in general? Conversion to Islam or?

[@kenclarkeis]

Now that was a plot twist worth waiting for. Great video. Loving the collaborations. Learning so much from your videos. It’s fundamentally changing my view of religion and of the world. Great work.

[@jonsey3645]

Thank you for an excellent channel. I am learning so much from you and others like Dr. Justin Sledge over on Esoterica. How fortunate we are to live in a time where this level of esteemed educators are giving this caliber of information away virtually free. Again thank you for your tireless efforts.

[@naillijseer]

I just drove through part of France near Carcassonne which had notices about Cathars everywhere and I had no idea what was going on so thanks for this.

[@pointzerotwo]

Great talk. They never taught any of this when I attended "Notre Dame Catholic School."

[@chiara1194]

Ummm..:I went to Notre Dame too! Where were you during the four semesters’ worth of theology and Church History classes? Probably getting drunk at the ‘Backer I suppose.

[@jbaquinones]

This is such an amazing episode. Thank you.

[@joseiglesias4729]

As always an excelent work Filip. Since you mentioned the bogomils, it would be great some videos about the various heterodox and sectarian groups in eastern orthodoxy, specially Russia. Greetings from Argentina

[@thatisme3thatisme38]

there was no documented sectarianism in Russia.

[@kylejacobson9587]

​@@thatisme3thatisme38 Lol, you serious?

[@stariyczedun]

@@thatisme3thatisme38 just from the top of my mind - 15th century "ересь жидовствующих", 17th century and still running - old believers, 18th century+ - духоборы, молокане, субботники, хлысты, скопцы (sect which was really into genital mutilation)

[@RhapsodyOfJoy]

Thank you so much for this wonderful presentation! Yours and Dr. Sledge's channels are some true gems! Subscribed to both!

[@VictorbrineSC]

I'm from Montpellier, and thus was born in the so called "Pays des Cathares" (currently living in what is pretty much the Heart of the land of the Cathars), the Languedoc, so in a way the Cathars hold some place in my heart. Even if there are concrete proof, I'll go against any ideas that the Cathars never existed, even if that would make me a narrow minded prick. They are the heart of our culture, of this region. It's the core of Occitania, and its history and destiny is something that many can relate to. The "Langue d'Oc" and other Occitan dialects are also in danger, yet again disappearing to the way more popular French (or "Langue d'Oil") language. Not saying that the French are ultimate evil people (I mean, I am French), however it would be heartbreaking to see the last whispers of Catharism and Occitan culture as a whole disappear. It's a beautiful region, with a beautiful culture, and awesome people, truly a treasure of France. Viva Occitania! Vive l'Occitanie! Et vive les Cathares!

[@sagebay2803]

Txs for sharing. I was in the Languedoc region as a tourist....loved, loved it! Mesmerizing!

[@johnadams5245]

I've always wanted to go to the caves that the cathars meditated Have you been?

[@vertexed5540]

Vive l'Occitanie!

[@LeePutnam1]

They did not belive in procreation which is the highest form of sacriface. Their culture was short lived. Rent the movie Idiotocracy in order to understand why they are gone. Ha ha ha

[@volvo507]

Hearing about the Cathars makes me think of Jorge Louis Borges’ short story ‘Tlön, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius’, a description of a fictional Heretical state that believed mirrors and procreation were evil as the propagated the material world.

[@johnjosmith42]

Thank you for this, I’m going to re read that now tomorrow. I adore Borges 👏

[@postmodernmining]

Hermeticism

[@parm2900]

​@@johnjosmith42 A heretic is not the one who burns at the stake, but the one who lights the bonfire. William Shakespeare

[@onion6foot]

Well done. Your manner of speaking is appreciated.

[@EdwardNoguera]

Interesting to hear that there may never have been a unified Cathar heresy. If any of you are looking for fiction that incorporates this religious minority, I recommend Kate Mosse's Labyrinth that alternates between the present and the Crusade. Great video as always!

[@saint-naive]

One of my favorite medieval European topics, thanks for covering it so wonderfully! Always looking forward to your productions.

[@0lAllan]

The Cathars' views were eerily similar to Zoroastrians. I'm not say there's a direct correlation (I don't enough to claim that) but it's strikingly similar.

[@spamachuchan8824]

That is how I feel about every religious view; I'm always doing a "thumb tacks and string" presentation in my head finding similarities in religions. Which is why I don't feel I fit into any religious groups.

[@cemyildiz7842]

@@spamachuchan8824 Paulicianism is the connection between Cathars and Zoroastrians.

[@paulstewart6293]

I know a Zorastrian. A young perse. A very intelligent beautiful person. Golima.

[@TheLkoler]

Is there a connection between the Templars and the introduction of Catharism into Europe? I believe Graham Hancock says this is in his book Talisman.

[@harisnuman3538]

@@TheLkoler possible

[@giomar89]

I was waiting for this video so much, thanks a lot!

[@pnkcnlng228]

I always wanted to know more about the Cathars as my little village in Lombardy was probably inhabited by Cathars and maybe named after them (but it is actually a celtic village)

[@andreebesseau6995]

The cathars were only living in certain part of France(languedoc).they were anihilated by Simon de montfort an anglo/french lord in what's called the albigecian crusade.very sad......very similar to what they did to the jewish population in Spain...

[@pnkcnlng228]

@@andreebesseau6995 Yeah

[@konyvnyelv.]

@@pnkcnlng228 come si chiama il paese?

[@mikeoxsmal8022]

Cathar is irish for city /stone Fort so a similar word could have named the village so I could be a false equivalent or maybe it was named after them

[@pnkcnlng228]

@@mikeoxsmal8022 The best hypotesis is that it was called after the contraction of "Ca dul Drach" that in Lombard means the house of the dragon

[@megret1808]

My family history book has my ancestors originating in the Languedoc. It said they left town in a hurry after Catholic friends warned them of danger on St. Bartholomew’s Day now known as the St. Bartholomew’s Day Massacre

[@magicknight13]

I had never known about this, thank you so much for shining a light on history!

[@dzenoo8gerrard]

Great presentation as always, but quite dissapointed that you were talking about Bogumils without mentioning medieval Kingdom of Bosnia, the only entity in Europe where some form of dualism was accepted as an official state religion. Consequently, many Cathars running away from the Crusaders found their shelter in Bosnia.

[@Eddn102]

That's because it's not a settled matter whether the krstjanin of the Bosnian church actually considered themselves to be bogomils.

[@MrNektarios1973]

Great video, it would be very interesting if you made a video about the militarized Anabaptists and the occupation of the city of Munster. I believe that militaristic Anabaptism is an aspect of religious European history that is unknown to many people today.

[@dead2802]

You r right on! So many sects, people, religions, never heard of. Know some about the Cathars. Especially thru the history of Simon de Monfort the elder. But so many others mentioned, not at all. Opens up an entire new history of learning for me as I love European history frm the dark ages thru the renaissance. 😊

[@PierroCh5]

Yes !! As a French person from the south it means so much to me that you, of all my favourite Religion/History youtubers, talk about the Cathares (as we call them nowadays) ! Such a fascinating Christian movement, that had to suffer the terrible oppression of the Catholic Church... The Cathares are very reminiscent of another, smaller, Christian movement that also appeared in what is now mostly France, called the Vaudois.

[@MohamedRamadan-qi4hl]

Have you listened to the video nothing about them was Christian

[@googleaccount4471]

They were vile gnositc heretics nothing Christian about them

[@PierroCh5]

All three of the comments I've received so far are examples of the things I dislike about this forsaken website :) Chill, folks !

[@mosquitobight]

@@googleaccount4471 chill out your holiness, the crusades have been over for centuries

[@googleaccount4471]

@@mosquitobight Only to the blind.

[@lewisbrooks4]

I am puzzled as to why there is no mention of Simon de Montfort and his campaigns against the Cathars in Carcassonne Did it happen or not? Were those persons Cathars as we are told or Medieval disinformation? I would like to see this addressed in some future article.

[@alexbadila1]

"...who is definitely not a fan." This great understatement made me chuckle.

[@adamblaylockmtg]

Love seeing Malcolm Barber getting cited anywhere. I have read too many of his books at this point.

[@AWikkedMoon]

The Cathar were the 120 seed of Seth, that are NOW here in this age. The 120 are the Ones who will awaken all. The inquisition went to kill them. They said to the Cathar, after they made a great bon fire. "You will become catholic or we will throw you into the fire". The Cathar just walked into the fire. They had no pain. This scared the hell out of the inquisition, lol. "The Gnostic Truth, The 120 seed of Seth". kzbin.info/www/bejne/nHS6gaOjpNKsrJI&ab_channel=AWikkedMoon

[@heshamahmed1820]

Thanks a bunch for such a great video, as usual. Greetings from Egypt

[@Liphted]

Great video! I can't wait too see the one on Esoterica!

[@LetsTalkReligion]

It's a good one!

[@brucetownsend691]

This was an interesting topic for me as I was raised a Seventh Day Adventist. That church claims to be the current embodiment of the true remnant church which has been continually persecuted and suppressed but the Catholic Church. (This is not a idea peculiar to the SDA church but is taken from earlier extreme Protestant thinking.). In support of this idea, the SDA present a history in which they are the successors of the Cathars, the Waldensians, the Hussites and just about any other dissident Christian group suppressed by the Catholic Church. It is apparent from what you have presented about the Cathars’ beliefs and practices that they have little in common with Seventh Day Adventists other than antipathy to to the Catholic Church and a preference for vegetarianism. (Edited to fix a typo)

[@questor5189]

Agreed. According to my research, references to the Albigensians in the SDA publications "The Great Controversy between Christ and Satan" by Ellen G.White, and "God has always had a people" by Kenneth McFarland are, at best, misguided. There is strong evidence that the Cathars of Languedoc believed in the doctrine of Docetism, that Christ did not come in the flesh. This stands in opposition to the Epistles of John the Beloved, who identified this early Gnostic teaching and defined it as the "spirit of antichrist". While this may have been a false accusation made against the Cathars by the Church of Rome to give them further reason to have them eliminated, the weight of evidence points to a Cathar adoption of Marcionite and Manichaean doctrine. With peculiarity, one of my sources indicates that the Cathars possessed a copy of the Gospel of St. John, and if so, how could they have read it's first chapter and still clung to such a grievous error?

[@theprinceofdarkness4679]

I read a book by a Baptist author who made similar claims for the Cathars Waldensians and several other medieval fringe groups where he appropriated all the groups as the remnant of the "true church" thereby lending credence to the spiritual heritage bequeathed to the Baptist Churches somehow descending through the Anabaptists A short time later I read a book on church history that demonstrated some inconsistencies in that notion Anyways this video helped me understand it even better

[@thomasmacginnes100]

every (sect) is the troo path or ✨(it) would not (be) !

[@bromomento3950]

Ah random revelation of “true Christianity” did of course happen in 19th century America. That totally makes sense.

[@brucetownsend691]

@@bromomento3950 That obvious objection is why new religions frequently pretend to be old. If you just say that god suddenly revealed something novel to you, others will probably dismiss it. So you need to dress it up a the recovery of ancient texts or teachings that have been lost.

[@kafros13]

Great video! Watching Esoterica's one right now. Must admit, I first heard of the Cathars by playing Broken Sword 5, so it is great to hear the actual story!

[@michalmonstrov137]

5:27 text reads something like "Heretic teaching heresy". Gotta love those medieval inscriptions

[@TawsifEC]

I enjoy your content. I learned about the Cathar Church in a Medieval Heresies course during my undergrad. They posed as competition and opposition to the Catholic Church in a significant way. But as you mentioned, the notion that the Cathar "Church" was potentially more of a fictitious institution embodying various fears and interests of the Western Church is worth serious consideration.

[@marstonbicks2517]

I think there is something much deeper in regards to cathars as well as gnosticism in the western religious cannon. I like watching these videos but don't have too much knowledge outside of my reformations class from college but the works of the author phillip k dick, especially valis, almost makes my little tinfoil hat brain in regards to the catholic church go ding ding ding.

[@ModernEphemera]

More like the interest of the French crown, who happily did all the work of the crusade and benefitted greatly, despite being hardly mentioned in this video

[@nowhereman6019]

I'm imagining a world where the Cathar's survived and eventually encountered the Vedic religions and Buddhism and had complex discussions on their relatively similar beliefs, such as what happened with Dara Shikoh.

[@nilesbutler8638]

Also think of the althist consequences for the religious schism wars later on. Languedoc was - before the crushade - a heavily populated economical heavyweight region in europe, proudly independent against the parisean french throne. In the 100-years war as well as the reformatory conflicts that region would probably have made some alliances to shift the power balance considerably. Also modern vegetarianism would have it somewhat easier I guess.

[@chronikhiles]

The Vedic religion started to decline with the spread of Buddhism and Jainism though, it would have more likely encountered Vaishnavism and Shaivism.

[@Bundpataka]

They’re not that similar

[@CountArtha]

The Cathars are just one example of the most common heresy: Gnosticism. It will probably never be totally wiped out; not before Jesus returns.

[@ferretyluv]

Well their beliefs are very similar to Manichaeism, as mentioned in the video.

[@dntodo6749]

Filip, So many of the illustrations are fascinating that I'd like to quote them in another context. I realise it may take too much work, but if you could possibly label some, or all of the medieval images, I should be very grateful.

[@toxicstatesofamerica1277]

They actually referred to Rome as "the seat of Satan."

[@evlynealeshire5850]

Pretty much is. 😮

[@ludonymous526]

Well. The Church was very corrupt back then. Good thing for the Reformation.

[@ludonymous526]

Yeah. The Church was very crooked back then.

[@pixelatedmess9269]

​@@evlynealeshire585012:14

[@pixelatedmess9269]

​@@evlynealeshire585013:17

[@jeangove01]

You seem to skip the political aspect of the Albigensian Crusade, that is, that the northern kingdom and nobility wanted an excuse to exercise authority over the south. The south of what we think of as France was, and to some extent still is, actually Occitan, ethnically, linguistically and culturally different from the French north.

[@Wkumar07]

What attracts me the most to religious history is the vast array of diverse thought and opinions we find within the world faiths. In today's world many think that the religions we have today are static and never changing. This isn't true and even a cursory view of history will show that what we believe in today is drastically different from what was once believed.

[@deli_doo]

There si a book from John Fine about Bosnian Church which was "heretical" and pope often sent crusades on bosnian heretics. Head of church was considered as a pope for the heretics in Europe

[@valentinus7776]

A Cathar prayer: Holy Father, Thou just God of all good souls, Thou who art never deceived, who dost never lie or doubt, grant us to know what Thou knowest, to love what thou dost love; for we are not of this world, and this world is not of us, and we fear lest we meet death in this realm of an alien god.

[@janeslater8004]

Thank you 🙏

[@ludonymous526]

Well. It comes quite close.

[@margaretstreet6500]

René Weisz, The Yellow Cross. Fascinating study of the end of the Cathars by an Oxford scholar. More about how people lived their beliefs.

[@kyussrock29]

Awesome . Really looking forward to this

[@elainedaprano9130]

"Ysabel" is "a novel by Guy Gavriel Kay about the Albigensian Crusade massacre at Montfort. Excellent read, as his work always is.

[@latieplolo]

I love Kay's appreciation of history, especially less popular historical periods. The melancholy beauty of Al Rassan is amazing. But the way he handles sex in his stories is so adolescent it really makes me cringe

[@onion6foot]

Wow. ​@@latieplolo

[@lukesullivan9344]

Thank you for making this video. We in the West are often not taught about the crimes of our past. We focus on others faults, not our own.

[@zoonpolitikon14]

I think I am a distant descendant of these people, very fascinating information in this video thanks

[@JJBushfan]

There was an English psychiatrist called Arthur Guirdham who came to a belief in reincarnation through the experiences of one of his patients. He claimed that he began to remember his own previous lives, including one as a Cathar during the Albigensian Crusade. The biggest of his works - which includes several earlier incarnations but concentrates on the Cathar one - is called The Lake and the Castle. It's out of print now, but if anybody should come across a second hand copy, it's well worth a read even if you don't believe a word of what Guirdham claims. It's a most entertaining book. Most of what he says about the Cathars, but not quite all, accords closely with what our splendid guide has been saying in the video.

[@spineshivers]

There's a great song about Cathars from Iron Maiden. It's called Montsegur. You should check it out.

[@M-i-k-a-e-l]

Great one.

[@nakedbeekeeper9610]

Kathaarian Life Code is another great one by Darkthrone.

[@questor5189]

Thank you Sir for this excellent documentary. Not to be overlooked is what happened to the last remaining bastion of the Cathars at the Castle Montsegur. The Middle Ages were a period of great religious intolerance, and may have been prophecied in the twelfth chapter of The Revelation of St. John.

[@livestreamsrecordingsuk4529]

We had prayers for the Cathars who lost their lives at Monsignor recently across Europe and the world I took part they are not forgotten the holy grail link makes them a special faith & religion let's not forget the Bogomils also similer faith and they had contact with each other I believe .

[@questor5189]

@@livestreamsrecordingsuk4529 Wonderful and thank you. With peculiarity, The Cathars are referred to as Albigensians in the 1888 publication of "The Great Controversy between Christ and Satan" by Ellen G. White. In "People of the Piedmont" (1582?) they are referred to as the "Pure Ones". My only concern is the accusations of Docetism made against them by their detractors.

[@livestreamsrecordingsuk4529]

@@questor5189 Thanks for the information I have come across the holy man Marcel Manning he seems to have alot of knowledge on the Cathars he has met other religious Faith's in India and traveled I believe to tibet also .

[@tolrem]

An interesting book on the subject is "Montaillou,The Promised Land of Error" by Emmanuel Le Roy Ladurie.He builds a picture of that village in 1300 which had a sizeable Cathar adherence,gleaned from records of the Inquisition.Interestingly the mayor of the town in 1300 has the same surname as the mayor in very recent times.Very interesting insight into Medieval village life quite apart from the religious aspect.

[@susanna3295]

I second that recommendation! I read "Montaillou" just a couple of weeks ago, mainly for the insight into a Medieval village, and it was a very interesting portrait of the people in the village! Good book, a bit dense on and off, but definetly worth a read if anyone is interested in Medieval history or Christian religion history.

[@TheWuschi]

Very good feature, thank you! - But since I am a neurotically narrow-minded boomer, I am forced to inform you, that the word is PENITENCE, not PENTIENCE. (Two times in that video - but who counts?) "Penitence. The word is Penitence." (please, hear it in Homer Simpson voice and never unhear it again...)

[@davidterry3288]

These are not the cat species from Star Wars you were looking for.

[@guntherfeist9760]

The Cathars were right: the material world is a piece of shit. Unluckily, there is no other one.

[@MiguelBaptista1981]

How all-knowing and all-encompassing of you to figure that out for the rest of us.

[@yoshijb9428]

Because you would know if there is anything else?

[@ludonymous526]

Well. The world is flawed, but there are wonders in it too.

[@hib32]

At least the Cathars knew better than to be pessimistic atheists.

[@ludonymous526]

​@@hib32 Well. You said it, man. Atheists are pure, unadultered nihilists.

[@OmegaWolf747]

But if the Cathars weren't real, then who were the people being rounded up and murdered?

[@M-i-k-a-e-l]

Those unvaccinated by the church of rome.

[@shadowforger2035]

We are real. And we survived. I live West Virginia. We are called the Families of the Eastern Star. We founded Alexandria Virginia and a little Country called the United States of America. Sheltered by the Kale, Romanchal and Scotts we fled to the Forest of Cumberland.

[@shadowforger2035]

@@M-i-k-a-e-l 😂😂😆

[@juttaweise]

@@M-i-k-a-e-l me thinking the same ;o))

[@ludonymous526]

​@shadowforger2035 Well. Still, very few must have survived.

[@jdewit8148]

The Cathars got as close to the source as can be in this realm.

[@ludonymous526]

Or TRIED too. Their doctrine was something that distorted said source in a lot of ways. But I leave that to be open to debate.

[@fruitblossomblue1133]

Wow. Their message apparently still terrify the establishment today if the scientific community now even denies their very existence, killing them all over again, in a way. I only found out about them this week as I was looking up some ideas I came up with on my own about life, God, reality and so on. I used to be Catholic and I officially excommunicated myself 2 years ago. My only regret is that I didn't leave that cult earlier.

[@themischeifguide]

Another great video Cap'n!

[@chadwhitman1811]

The extermination of the Cathars was so complete that while the crusade to exterminate them is a real a historical event , the movement itself was so thoroughly eradicated as to doubt whether it ever had any real substance. Which I take to mean the idea or essence existed but the substance or material structure of an organization may not have. In any case they were even more throughly repressed than even the Christians of Japan who were persecuted to extinction in the seventeenth century and survived only as a highly secretive underground movement.

[@ludonymous526]

Blame the man, not the religion.

[@StrawHat6]

I'd posit that dualism, even when not directly inspired by a separate belief, is still connected. You could infer that humans have always resented their "awareness" of how weak the body is, and just how hard the act of "living" can actually be. This almost always leads to a schism in what we wish to reach for, and what our physical forms can actually grasp. It's only natural to search for blame in that scenario. I'd go so far as to argue that religion can easily be poisoned by a tendency to view this life ONLY as a test or a prison to the degree that such a view becomes self-fulfilled.

[@M-i-k-a-e-l]

Well said. And the other way around: too lopsided belief that this is a direct heavenly abode given to us as a lollipop from God may seduce us into hedonism and miss the goal of the return of the prodigal son. But sure, sometimes one need to totally wreck oneself in earthly stuff before willingness for truth enters...

[@Jelly_Juice2006]

I have been to Carcassonne, which is a medieval city that was seiged by the crusaders during the Cathar Crusade

[@andreebesseau6995]

So did I.i still fell them.carcassone was defended by women.

[@ggEmolicious]

Cathars: Do you really need all that gold and marble to teach faith? Pope: HERESY!

[@Testimony_Of_JTF]

Not the main problem with them

[@TheMolacho1]

That's what Moctezuma said!😂

[@Onlyafool172]

You understand they were violent, and sometimes suicidal right? They tought anything in the world is bad hence having kids was bad, God was secretely the demiurge, and Jesus comes from The real God, basically marcionalism, it was incredibly gnostic, they probably had blood sacrifices to free someone from this Planet, its obvious they gonna hate the church who thinks the creator is Good, this also implies we took Jesus and turned him into our simbol, the gnostics of this type are incredibly dangerous, they differ from buddists because buddist believes in reincarnation, which means that they atleast dont promote suicide, because of karma, they problem said that since they knew this truth they are saved because they acquired this knowlage, which means they did not cared for kindness or good works, because it was all a way to realize world bad, hence death, imagine a society in which suicide is incentived, and now imagine as a catholic, people would litterraly kill themselves which means that from a catholic they saw catharcism as basically a guaranteed way to hell, because suicide is total rejection of life, and perseverence which is a catholic philosofical concept, that is very scary, people totally thinked they were possessed

[@carlramirez6339]

With Catharism preaching about earthly uncleanliness and re-incarnation, it almost seems like Catharism is "Christianity with Zoroastrian and Buddhist Characteristics".

[@M-i-k-a-e-l]

I think you are right, perhaps a landing amongst the essenes on your way to the cathars is necessary 🤓

[@spaik12354]

Cat 🐈 HARE... Kriŝna !

[@therealzilch]

Another wonderfully informative video.

[@oscarballard7911]

I'd suggest the Cathars were a result of the earliest Crusaders and Pilgrims from the Holy Land, returning with greatly different understandings and perceptions of Yeshua, His teaching and origins in Gnosticism?

[@richardlilley6274]

Thank you for sharing your knowledge and investigations

[@johnsonhunglo1993]

The Catholic Church (Church of Rome) hated competition!!!

[@anshumandcjoshi6424]

Was a Cathar nun called "Cathar-sis"?

[@LetsTalkReligion]

Well done

[@ludonymous526]

A good one.

[@AlessioAndres]

you do realise that you're talking to yourself instead of engaging with the audience, right?✍️😂

[@ludonymous526]

@@AlessioAndres Well. Either way, I found it funny.

[@KbB-kz9qp]

As to whether or not “Cathers” actually existed, I would tend more to trust Medieval accounts rather the than the conclusions of today’s religious scholars “of the last few decades”. Go figure 🤔

[@christianorthodoxy4769]

They did.. and they were Heretical' group's but today because of the indifferent" attitude and infiltrated heirarchy' with-in the Western Catholic' Church' Rome! especially they have apologize for stamping them-out. They have been apologizing for stopping the Spread of many different heresies' to please the World) but many Protestant' Reformned groups especially the Baptist" Will attempt to attach Their so-called' history Origin/Origins to many of these little Heretical' Sects' groups/movements etc. In order to appear Old' or Ancient.. it's a Grabbing at Straw's in a desperation to See" See' we always have existed! Lol' and every-one of those Sectarian' groups were in Schisms or Heresy' very Revealing* and how convenient... Nice try.' But doesn't Work to their benefit.

[@ExiledHere]

@@christianorthodoxy4769 Are you suggesting that stamping out dissenters is a good thing? And are you suggesting that age gives legitimacy to church doctrine? or am I totally misreading you?

[@christianorthodoxy4769]

@@ExiledHere It depends of what you think of the penalty' is for leading people astray' / Damnation 🔥 and what the Old' Testament and New Testament and the early Centuries of the Church did to clamp down on individuals and heretical' groups Sects' that were Un-Orthodox' (heterodox) said and did about these things. I've read it. Are your standards Almighty' God's or do you think your Way is better..? And by the way many of those Heretics' were actually given a chance bro recant/Repent' take back and Correct' their heresies' not Once" but in some cases more than 3-Times.' and even Still' they Refused" to Repent From spreading thier heresies' and in so doing condemning themselves and damning other's by leading other's to Damnation' 🔥 but then again your standards are Much higher than that Right? And are more how should I say modern and Weak' ?? Maybe. Now this is the way it was and the Church' is lead by The Holy' Spirit. Ànd so if you think your Right" as many do. Then it's YOU'RE Opinion. Sometimes fire is needed it consumes and Also Purifies' as well you would probably be the type of person would let gangrene Spread, or Cancer grow, Etc. I can tell you didn't like the response (Comment/post) but I'd rather offend (You) than Compromise The Faith' PERIOD.

[@christianorthodoxy4769]

@@ExiledHere I invite you to my channels playlist'

[@christianorthodoxy4769]

@@ExiledHere So that you May enjoy the Reformned/ Deformed' Protestant' Revolt' / "Rebelion" and it's many a.) few thousand" Heretical' Sects' group's movements Organization's Splinters/fragmentation and degradation" and so-called' non-denomination/ Non-denominational evil'jelly•call'd c_hurt`ches I've been studying the history of The many different Protestant' group's and guess what They are all" found_ded by a Man" in some cases even Women, or both it's all Man-made Sectarian'ism Par-Excellence" with no Connection to.. anything (although they all" Claim it. Christianity The Church' is Over 1,980+ Year's old, Basically 2,000 year's old. Not 500 or 450 years old or even 900 years old.'

[@scandalouslando204]

Never heard of the cathers in France til youtube, the best library of all history.

[@Tactical_DZ]

Very interesting, thank you for the history and beliefs of these people. 🍻

[@spiritualanarchist8162]

These days all kind of new age nonsense is been projected upon Cathars. They sometimes portrait them as nature loving non dualist. 🙄

[@Historian212]

Dan Brown’s inexplicably popular book (aside from anything else, one of the worst-written pieces of nonsense I ever encountered), and his source by Baigent and Leigh, haven’t helped matters, alas.

[@spiritualanarchist8162]

@@Historian212 And it's useless to try and discuss things with these people. Be it ancient aliens, Atlantis, or Cathars . I tried for a while , but is no use. When i try to counter their arguments they start by telling me 'i should read a few books, because i obviously don't know what i'm talking about. And when i tell them i'm a historian, they tell me i'm either part of the brain-washed or the brainwashing academia. So whatever i'm saying, i'm always wrong ...Unless i agree with them ofcourse 😅

[@100Denario]

@@spiritualanarchist8162, I feel for ya

[@M-i-k-a-e-l]

@@spiritualanarchist8162 Maybe we all mix knowledge with bullshit off and on? A lightandlove newage freak may have a few percent right that complements your, let's say, 90 percent..Isn't that a gift then? Moreover, essential aspects of mystical knowledge will never be revealed by academia. The cathar history is shrouded in fog when it comes to the inner teachings, paraphysical abilities, esoteric heritage etc. So, my thought is, keep humble and be open to unusual transmissions of truths in the matter. All the best.

[@spiritualanarchist8162]

@@M-i-k-a-e-l That's not really my point. It's about projecting one's own's ideas upon a historical sect. We may not know a lot about them, but we do know they were duelists and viewed creation as a product of an evil ,or atleast ,flawed demi god. So when i read books, and see videos with people claiming Cathars were non dual nature lovers i find it annoying . What is wrong with just accepting that we don't know much about them ? Why this need to project one's own concepts upon everything 'mysterious' in the past ?

[@festerburg87]

Thanks for all your videos. The Waldensians would make for a good video as well.

[@rolandscales9380]

A very different set of beliefs, observing the creeds of mainstream Christianity.

[@A.Dajlida]

When talking about Cathars, they would often mention only the Albigenses of Languedoc (as if no Cathars existed in other regions). However, the same faith (Patarens, Bogomils) had existed almost all over Europe - from Bulgaria and Rus' to Flandria and France, and all of them acknowledged that they are one church originating from one source, they deemed themselves to be the true Apostolic Church. In 1461, shortly before abolishing the Bogomil church in Bosnia (the last in Europe), the notorious inquisitor Torquemada interrogated its seniors, and they said (inter alia), that all popes before Sylvester had professed their (i.e. Bogomil) faith, and only Sylvester was the first traitor (Jean Duvernoy, La religion des cathares).

[@andremiguel1143]

My direct ancestor fought in the Albigensian Crusade at the request of Philip II Augustus who made him knight.

[@PeaceLoveHonor]

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing that.

[@DouwedeJong]

Great video. Thanks for making it. I learned a lot.

[@JennetPreston]

The great historian of medieval religion, Caroline Bynum, once suggested that the Cathars were indirectly responsible for the success of the Franciscans. When St. Francis showed up preaching pantheism, which was technically heretical, the pope was so desperate for charismatic preaching to counter the allure of the Cathars that he gave the new order his blessing. A generation earlier or later, said Bynum, and Francis might have been burned at the stake instead.

[@polemeros]

Francis never preached pantheism. Total BS.

[@JennetPreston]

@@polemeros Between a brilliant historian and someone who confuses calling BS with an actual argument, I think I'll go with the historian, but thanks!

[@Samuel-lf4ul]

​@@JennetPreston Historians are often wrong. I think that his own Franciscan Order’ lack of pantheism is strong evidence to the contrary. That said, I wouldn’t put off panentheism in St. Francis, as other orthodox Christians leaned that way (such as Meister Eckhart afterwards and St. Maximus beforehand).

[@Samuel-lf4ul]

More likely, Pope Innocent was looking for people that embodied ‘Apostolic Poverty’, but he wasn’t strapped for orthodox friars. The Humiliati come to mind before even Francis or the Dominic.

[@polemeros]

@@Samuel-lf4ul Yes. There is zero textual evidence that Francis ever identified the Cosmos as God, which is what pantheism is, even at his most lyrical, in the Canticle of the Sun. God for him was always the Creator of the world, never the world itself.

[@johnburns2258]

Wasn't there also a political dimension to these crusades? The King of France being the Pope's main agent in their prosecution. The Languedoc was part of the French King's domain. However it spoke its own dialect(s) of French and administration was done in these. Paris was remote, and I think the Languedoc has a sense of independence. The French King wanted to this region to heel. A crusade was a good excuse to assert dominance.

[@cathryncampbell8555]

What fascinates me is that *if the Cathars existed,* they were wedged geographically between Aquitaine & Provence. Those two southern areas in France were associated with the medieval Courts of Love, Chivalry, courtly worship of woman as a Platonic ideal leading one to God, etc. Two more dissimilar philosophies can scarcely be imagined!

[@thierryf67]

why "if" ? they existed, and in the south of France, people yet "remember" from generations, what did the France king's armies down there...

[@LinuxUser00]

Troubadours and Cathars made great temporary--tunic-of-flesh culture, though.

[@vicmorrison8128]

Very well done. Thanks!

[@ShamriCayia]

The Cathar were a species of feline, bipedal humanoids native to Cathar, a planet of savannas and rough uplands. They were known for their loyalty, passion, and temper. Quick and powerful, they were considered great warriors and dedicated, efficient predators. - Wookiepedia

[@luisaymerich9675]

Tabaxi? 😄

[@richardalex4516]

Chow for the Mandalorians

[@gavinflorence9416]

Wow, this was fascinating thanks so much! I am eager to learn more about them!

[@SmartVideosJarkaWatched]

I always heard that Catholic Baptism was more like 'a sacred vow-ceremony for the parents & the parents' friends (godparents), pledging that they raise the child to be a good Christian.'

[@luisaymerich9675]

That is the function of the godparents. In Latin America it is known as compadrazgo. The compadres tended to have a very close relationship.

[@SmartVideosJarkaWatched]

@@luisaymerich9675 Indeed; so you could say that the baptism 'deputizes' (anoints? ... crowns?) the godparents as "the godparents."

[@luisaymerich9675]

@@SmartVideosJarkaWatched Pretty much so, baptism is a sacrament that initiates a person into membership in the church and removes sin from the baptized. Godparents act as cosponsors for the baptized.

[@SmartVideosJarkaWatched]

@@luisaymerich9675 I know, I'm Roman Catholic (my Patron is St. Jude). And I'm addressing the "complaint" that we baptize people 'before they're even aware of ... anything.' It's because baptism's not "their joining the church" so much as it is "their parents'/godparents' promise to raise them in the religion." (so you'll hear lots of people say they were "raised Catholic," no matter what community they join later in life).

[@luisaymerich9675]

@@SmartVideosJarkaWatched I hear you. I too heard about churches that require members to be old enough to make a profession of faith and then get baptized. They say children cannot get baptized because they cannot make that declaration. What they fail to understand is that baptism as a sign of the new covenant replaces circumcision that was the sign of the old covenant with Abraham. In Jewish tradition the child was circumcised on the eighth day, too young to decide to become part of the covenant. The parents make that decision and raise the child to be a Jew. That is what we remember at the Presentation, the fourth joyous mystery of the rosary that we pray as Catholics. In the time of the early church the discussion about baptism was not whether children were to be baptized but when. Some believed that that one should observe the eight days of the Jewish custom while others wanted to dispense with the custom and do it as soon as possible. It was never about waiting for the child to be old enough to understand the meaning of baptism.

[@livestreamsrecordingsuk4529]

Just adding this important information As early as 1167 the heads of the Cathar sect converged here - in that year, a council was held at Saint-Félix-Lauragais, attended by Cathar leaders from northern France and Italy, as well as the Bogomil Bishop of Constantinople.

[@wonderpeter5231]

Pope Innocent the third. The irony is beyond normal levels.

[@evlynealeshire5850]

You mean “ not so innocent”? Yeah, I am an ex-Catholic. Their are good people that are Catholics. However, much of the history (and other factors) of that religion are reprehensible.

[@ludonymous526]

​@@evlynealeshire5850Yeah. I'm a Catholic, but their acts no doubt leave one giant stain.

[@xtiannoregisteredsurname5124]

Would the Vatican archives have primary source materials on this? Is that kind of thing (if it existed) be available to researchers? Even if we discount Catholic bias, primary sources dating from the actual times would shed some light on the twist-in-the-plot, rather than relying on later sources. Fascinating stuff!

[@jonjon3378]

Thank you for sharing on the Cathars. Your videos are informative and much appreciated. I would highly appreciate more videos on the gnostics and neo-platonists!

[@DavidLee-fe7yf]

Read once of a well respected doctor who claimed to be a reincarnated Cathar who underwent torture in a particular relevent period of time he could not have known anything about, and so in his eyes they definitely did exist.

[@GraceGrimoire]

I find your work really interesting. I was raised a Jehovah’s Witness, do you think you would ever do a video on them? I’ve since left but not many people know about them and their history and ideology is interesting.

[@M-i-k-a-e-l]

Good, then you are possible to marry for a simple christian mystic 🤓 Let me know if semi offgrid forest life in Sweden happens to become your highest earthy longing...🍂🍃🕊 Blessings Mika

[@Bucephalus84]

I find myself leaning to their cores beliefs. Just way too much control exercised by the church. Gives me cult vibes.

[@welmaragustin6891]

where do you leave?

[@alfredino724]

i’m interested in them also

[@ludonymous526]

Jehovah's Witnesses are a flat-out cult. Pure and simple.

[@voraciousreader3341]

I really enjoyed this. You’ve got a great grasp of this religion, but I do have to correct the pronunciation of one important word: “PEN - i - Tence” (not “PEN - Ti - ence”). I remember reading about the Cathars and especially the Gnostics a long time ago, so it’s nice to have such a well done reminder!

[@imaginaryuniverse632]

It's ironic murderers are among the most judgemental of people. 🙄

[@SKNAZIR-sx1th]

Thanks for your new video . good explain.

[@markadams7046]

I see at least 2 thumbs down and the video hasn't even played yet. Some people really need to know what they are criticizing before they criticize it.

[@AmandaCan]

17:05 I wanted to comment on the point you make here. It’s possible also that the Cathars did not believe that sin in the material world mattered and therefore do not have to atone for it. They likely had a very different view on sin than their opponents.

[@migracion1425]

Better say Southern Gaul, instead of Southern France. They were Occitans from Occitania. I also recomend listening to Claudi Marti, specially "Montsegur".

[@danicagrahek-ogden4444]

"Montaillou - Cathars and Catholics in a French village 1294-1324" - interesting book if you are interested in every day life of Cathars.

[@Historian212]

The precedent for the kind of indiscriminate violence by Medieval crusaders described as being inflicted in Cathar areas was set during the First Crusade, when crusaders on the journey across Europe to Jerusalem attacked and killed Jews in the Rhineland and elsewhere, and then marauded through Constantinople killing Muslims, Jews, and even Eastern Orthodox Christians.

[@blugaledoh2669]

You are conflating the people crusader with the legitimate crusaders. Everything you say is false or misinterpretation.

[@42NewGuy]

I’m glad you discussed the uncertainty concerning the existence of a unified cathar faith. Ever since I read A Most Holy War in a Crusades class in college, I feel like the Cathar Church doesn’t really pass the “sniff test” for me. I think the more compelling argument is: many small and large communities in Europe were fairly heterodox in their faith and practice of Catholic Christianity, and the simplest explanation of the cause of the Albigensian Crusade was that the people of Languedoc maybe just stood out a little to far in their odd little variation of Catholicism. I’m also fond of the argument that the whole crusade was motivated by the very early French nation-building project, and the attempt to bring the more outlandish Capetian domains to heel. *Also, I know this comment is-like-2 years late😂*