Short pin layouts vs long pins | Do they flare more or less?

[@StephRenee812]

You seem like a great person Jr. I appreciate everything.. I have learned so much from you. I'm getting there thanks to people like you giving us your time, sharing and helping people learn.. Crazy that people don't have anything better to do then to bash and be ignorant, like keep moving along, block the channels then they you don't have to see the content from those channels.. If people had to walk in another person's shoes for a day, they wouldn't be typing and saying the things tbey do.Might not bother you, but it bothers me, rant over... Thanks again for everything Jr I appreciate you!

[@Tenpindoctors]

@@StephRenee812 I really appreciate that. No the comments don’t bother me like they used to. Now they make me giggle.

[@nordattack]

What you demonstrated makes perfect sense JR. As a Full Roller with zero tilt I have learned this lesson. In the case of a Full Roller, a layout that places the pin 2 1/4" Past the bowler's PAP produces and clean, smooth and continuous reaction. The Standard 45 degree layout for Full Rollers will force the ball the read the lane almost instantly and roll forward with poor ball motion.

[@kennethportis3572]

Thanks for posting this video. I too have low tilt and had been running into problems trying to use longer pins. Recently I had revert back to lower ones and seeing much better success. Glad it wasn't just all in my head.

[@dustinmabie4909]

Short pins on asym balls retain tilt longer and are a GREAT option, especially for low tilt bowlers. Long pin-pap on asym balls roll forward sooner. Take me back to Mo's teachings from over a decade ago. 😁 Thank you for the content.

[@jasontom7278]

Very good video. Easy to see the difference in the hook window of the different layouts.

[@hawserdog2]

Great video on the pin layout... Was wondering if you could make a similar video for 2 hanger layout for pin placement... My son is a 2 hander and having a few of his balls hitting the finger holes. We could even make a day of it to come visit you.. Let me know.. Thanks Jr

[@johnathangreaves3214]

Awesome video JR, I am a bowler with very low tilt myself and this will change a lot of what I drill and how I see the how and why I'm leaving certain hits. I recently had a short pin Pure Envy drilled and I was scared it was going to not flare as much and I've found the same thing you have with being able to get so much more right(left handed) than I even had before with other strong balls and still having lots of flare, and now I get why. I've always struggled throwing reactive balls in general and all with taller and longer pins, and now this is going to change how I drill those types of balls moving forward. Thanks!

[@drifterwill801]

Thanks for the information…very informative and interesting. Can you explain why tape is used on the fingers instead of inside the finger holes. Thanks

[@terryroberts6777]

I have the same problem as you. I started using short pin balls and has helped me alot. I always had balls 5 inch roll to forward and puke. Rev dominant slower speed. I use 100 x 1 1/4 x 60 on asyms and rolls great, 90 x 2 1/4 x 45 is alittle stronger . These layouts let me stay right longer and on houseshots I can get right on top of the oil line and play the hold. The layouts look great. Thanks for the informative video. Hope your onto something that works for you.

[@KornHuskerJason]

Makes sense. Thanks for the experiment. I have so many of these types of experiments that I want to try but can’t afford to drill that many balls 😂

[@rb8999]

Thanks for posting this. As someone with low tilt, i recently went through this too and have settled on a few layouts that seems to work well for me now after reading a lot of info from Mo. I've drilled more balls pin down the last year than the previous 5+ years. 3 3/4 x 5 x 3 VLS which essentially translates to 60 x 3 3/4 x 60 dual angle. It's been great on any balls that flare a lot, especially bigger asymms like One Reverb and even symms like the Ricochet

[@larrywhite4667]

Thanks Jr for this video. I have been looking for some short pin video to help with my layout. I am a low tilt bowler and I throw the ball very slow. I use the same 4.5 pin layout as you and get good ball motion on the fresh oil but it does not last long. The ball over reacts and croses over. If I I move left and throw too far out it will die and not come back from the outside. This was a very good video that I have been looking for. Thank you.

[@Just-Suave]

Dang good video dude! Great info for low tilt players. Significantly more energy going through the pins and no hook stop during the hook phase (you can tell the higher pin holds for a split second longer, burning up energy)! Thanks for this J.R. Will help many bowlers game tremendously!

[@devynwilliams6036]

lower tilt player here, but my goodness this was super helpful and amazing to see. Thank you.

[@erikroy1425]

love the video!!!! JR have you ever seen a bowler with really high tilt lets say a 3.5 by 1 inch PAP have issues with bigger covers with all pins?

[@markdoerr5529]

Great great info JR love your vids hope you have great success on tour.

[@BrandonMiller-g2s]

I'm having the same issue to where im rolling over the thumb hole.. If I could send you my spec's you think you could tell me what changes I need to make to get off the thumb? Im opposite of you though.. I have a crazy high tilt for a thumb in bowler.

[@MATHEOSARMEFTIS-n3c]

Best video ever am also a low tilt player and my short pin layouts roll very good.

[@wintonmoy5560]

Robert smith had a video showing the flare going over his thumb too on a symmetrical core. With an asymmetrical the flare goes right up to the mass bias and didn’t go over the thumb. Curious if a drill angle that places a mass bias next to thumb hole would also alleviate the flare over the thumb hole.

[@brianlevandowski3167]

I did 70 x 1.75 x 35 on the One encore so a beast of a asymmetrical core at .27 intermediate. I tried a Rico layout on a Asymmetrical like storm Dark code. But i seen Robert Smith had that same issue eith clipping the thumbs with the back flares, I forgot if it was on symmetrical only since the core doesnt stop. Asymmetric the flare ran out just neofre the thumb hole. He dabbled with short pins also. Where is your Homemade pro sec? From an older Mo monday video he labeled it as a "no mans land" for pin to pap distances lower than 3-3/8 to 2.5 i think it was. But it clearly works for you, then his son Mikey always talked about the layouts being 90 x 45 or 80 x 40 or 70 x 35 or 60 x 30, like half the first number with surface.

[@JAW_73]

Have you tried changing your lateral pitches to lower your track and increase your tilt?

[@byronfranek2706]

I think you are onto something with the shorter pins on strong asymms and moving the bowties down for flare safety. Not sure I think you've absolutely nailed those layouts, but they are definitely trending toward more predictable and flare safe ball motion. The LEVEL probably smells like hundred dollar bills. Here's a possibly illuminating ball dynamics experiment: Step1: mark a 4" PAP on an undrilled high-diff dull symmetrical ball with a yellow pencil and place it on the ball spinner with the pin facing straight up, exactly centered. Turn on the spinner, and use a sharpie to draw a line on the surface at the PAP. This will result in a perfect circle around the pin at 4". This is a representation of the intersecting undrilled RG contour. Step2: Drill the ball and roll it on the lane; mark the PAP for every oil ring and all of the dry flares with a sharpie. You are mapping the effects of decorrelation due to asymmetry on the formerly circular/symmetrical RG contour marked on the surface of the ball. The decorrelation between this marked RG contour relative to the undrilled circular contour is more or less the whole enchilada for core dynamics. The larger the decorrelation from circular, the greater will be the spacing between the track flares on the spherical surface of the ball. The point of maximum decorrelation/asymmetry (and resulting track flare spacing) is the pin-to-spin line and will be located between the pin and post-drilling PSA (thumbhole). > The core does not migrate toward the axis of rotation or change attitude appreciably as the ball rolls down the lane, and we know this because of the aforementioned exercises: the PAP essentially migrates around the PIN. But the PAP does not actually migrate: it is the surface of the ball that migrates through the PAP, due to core precession. The ball is literally spinning on two axes simultaneously: the bowler's spin axis, and the X-axis marked by the PIN. > Asymms with high intermediate diff have sloped flare profiles with strong PSA position. Track flare increases with PIN-PAP distance, from 3-6", with 6" being maximum flare. Long pins on asymms are ideal for high rotation and tilt. Symms and mild asymms have Bell-shaped flare profiles, with track flare maximum at 3.375" and diminishing at shorter and longer distances. intermediate pins and high ratios are ideal for low tilt and rotation bowlers, with ball selection being paramount for flare safety with high flaring pin positions. > IMO, minimum usable VAL angle places the pin at no more than 90 degrees to the center of the thumbhole. Beyond 90 degrees you are essentially raising the RG of the X-axis and reducing RG differential in exactly the same way that pin-down layouts do. So when laying out a quick pin-up ball, check the angle from the pin to center of thumb, and reduce the VAL angle if necessary. > Pins from 2.5 - 4" are earlier and more continuous, and pins 4.5 - 6" are more angular and tend to lope through the front and roll forward on the back end as you have demonstrated. The PSA position on asymms is probably more relevant than minor differences in PIN-PAP distance. Certainly, early ball motion is achieved with the drilling angle, and there is a bit of a caveat with layout systems: the absolute values of the layout angles are measurements, not governing variables. They work in tandem and affect each other. ie: a 60 degree drilling angle functions differently in pin-up and pin-down layouts, due to significant differences in the shape and orientation of the axis migration path. The aforementioned Enchilada. > Note: the behavior of a ball on the Determinator (PSA migrating toward the post axis) is not at all the same behavior exhibited when rolled on a lane, in which the bowler's spin axis is bound to the intersecting RG contour.

[@davetocco9360]

JR did you ever take a symmetrical core ball and put the pin right on the CG . Sort of a up the boards shot ???

[@kevinanderson9093]

Would appreciate it. If you would use these same balls on a typical house pattern. Thanks for the info!

[@michaeldevore2205]

Would stronger symmetrical balls be similar or longer pins/ Or since you technically make them asymmetrical by putting holes in them, does it matter?

[@joshadams8139]

Fantastic video learned something new and as a player with very similar style as yourself i think i am going to put some shorter pins on some new stuff. Question with that do you think you will have less options when it comes to layouts the shorter and shorter you go?

[@juggernaut0629]

I have the SAME problem being a low tilt guy as well JR. High friction patterns have me farther left than most bowlers. High Rev rate as well. I have found 90 X 45 to be a good set of numbers with 2.25 - 3.5” pins real nice. I am currently testing higher VAL values. It’s usually my go to in symmetric balls. I also went with 70 x 5 x 60 in the Swag Archive pearl and Storm VEBO. Love them both. I didn’t realize how similar our game is! And yes! Don’t be afraid to move in deep with these short pin layouts. I do it all the time in these parts. Grab yourself a Hustle and throw a 90 X 3.5 x 45 on it and lmk what you think. Or do a video!

[@michaelmorgan5546]

You should check out some of Mo Panel's videos, he covers the dynamics that you are talking about. I remember him covering this topic, he used a device the would spin the ball so that it would always spin to the same spot about the thumb area. I am getting the Motiv Onyx and was looking at 60X5X40 and my tilt is around 7, so what I am getting is maybe I can keep the the same angles and move the pin to more of a 3 to 3.5?

[@chriscastro6606]

So with that being said I have low axis and are close to thumb also low revs so me going left sucks for reaction what would say use a smaller pin like you say??

[@tannersimmons6469]

story of my life! my PAP is 5 1/4 x 1 1/4 up. i struggle with tracking over my thumb, and when i do bigger VAL angles i track even higher and the ball won’t flare off of it. i have always opted for 4 1/2- 5 1/4 inch pins and small VAL angles. are you saying that going shorter pin to PAP would allow it to still flare even with the pin being lower?

[@mitchellpayne1576]

Can you do a scorpion low flair versus level comparison or do they even compare

[@bigboots6114]

mo pinal gives a good explanation about layouts A B C zones of pin to PAP because he states there is a twitch zone between 2.5 inch to 3.5 inch which means the ball could get squirrely when lanes oil changes

[@Jordan_Rush]

I suffer from hitting the thumb hole on Asym balls. ( 4-5/8 over. 7/8 up ) I have an exotic gem that was plugged three times trying different layouts. Now it looks like garbage going down the lanes. Probably because it looks like Swiss cheese haha!! Any suggestions on layout if I try another asym big ball?

[@dentureman42]

This might just put you over the hump! You are going to have a great season.

[@isomhawes311]

I vary between being a matched bowler to slightly rev dominant. For several years, I've mostly thrown symmetrical balls with layouts somewhere in the range of 3.5 to 5 inch pin to pap. For many years, my best games were not on the fresh but after lanes had some wear. My ball reaction would become less violent, more tame/controlled. I always thought this was due to carry down but more recently understand that it's due to my ball slowing down sooner as the lane oil is being depleted, blending the pattern. Recently I started drilling short pin layouts (2 to 3 inches) and discovered they give me the look on fresh that historically I'd have to wait later in the block to see. What I notice with short pins for me is that the ball slows down sooner and rolls forward quicker. It allows me to more easily play shallower angles since the ball has bled off some energy before it hits the back ends. After a while though, the ball won't corner and I have to pick up something with longer pin to PAP to restore shape and carry. In summary, my thoughts are (and this is for symmetric pieces) is that short pin to PAP slows down quicker and rolls forward quicker whereas longer pin to PAPs (4.5 or longer) skid much longer and then roll forward. But to answer your question, I think in both cases the symmetrical balls flare less whether it's short pin or long pin... it's just a matter if you want it to roll forward sooner (short pin) or later (long pin).

[@mrscoob3450]

I have 2 big assym solids and a symmetric hybrid drilled like that crusher. They are my favorite and most forgiving balls to roll.

[@jefferydaniels6717]

New cover formulas (hk22) maybe allowing for performance you couldn't get before? I know I've done short pins on 3 balls and only the DV8 Night Prowler ever worked for me. Blue 3-D was to skippy and I can't remember the other, but it was BAD. Thinking about this again myself as THS in my area are just getting more and more cliffed for me. You've seen me through, I shouldn't have to stand in the left gutter like a 2h bowler >:(

[@FredSoDak]

thank you. thank you. thank you.

[@ronaldvanengen1887]

Jr what if you left your layouts the same But loft the ball instead!! Your shorting the lane up and if that Core fires over your ball is closer to the pocket when that happens ❤🎉😊 Or move up on the approach but your timing has to quicken as well 🎉

[@park-n-sonsarchery9570]

JR great informative video , I have been struggling with low axis tilt myself , I have pretty egressive Rheumatoid arthritis at times and it’s difficult for me to change hand position at times , my PSO Joe Tommisoni here in Iron Mountain has been very patient with me , I don’t have the revs you do but I do clip the thumb hole , would this layout possibly be a work around for a lower rev low tilt player? Just your thoughts? Thanks

[@ScottyThompson-lt7wl]

Cool video talk tech bowling Jr Raymond

[@danielweisman6764]

This is an awesome video. Ty for info. Has a 2 handed house hack with 0 / negative tilt , I haven’t been able to find a way to Stop clipping my MF. I think I’ll try a short pin also! Any generic dual angles to try?

[@JeffDillion]

I’m hoping this helps you in the future, good luck, love your content.

[@bigrayrips4725]

Are you using the term low tilt interchangeably with low track? My wife is a low track bowler. And have noticed with her balls. That when we put these big flaring layouts it gives to much inconsistency. She's a slower thrower and lower revs. Pin above her bridge seems like a good sweet spot. Would putting the pin under her fingers be a benefit with helping to get more length out of the ball?

[@rb8999]

No, low tilt generally has high track close to the thumb. Low track is generally higher tilt with the hand around the side of the ball more

[@darinstrenzel3309]

does that mean people with high tilt should go 60x5x30 since you are saying low tilt is advantageous to drill 60x2.5x70

[@HypaFlexx441]

Is your VAL Angle 70 or is that your Core Angle?

[@deadpolymers3416]

He did 60x2-3/8x70. Drill angle x pin to pap x VAL angle

[@EasyBowlingStats]

The answer is yes, when they burn up and you use the shorter pins, they will recover just fine. My tilt is 7 degrees last time I checked, I deal with the same issues. I switched to shorter pins on my last 3 balls I drilled a couple months ago, and lately, I don't even want to throw anything else. By the way, the easybowlingstats big update will be done in a couple days. We are in the testing phase right now. Some very cool, revolutionary features are in this update. Stay tuned to JR for more info once this update is done.

[@RalphVincentLJao]

Do you drill short pins on both symmetric and asym balls? I thought short pin layouts works best on asyms?

[@EasyBowlingStats]

@@RalphVincentLJao It does seem to work best on asyms. You lose a bit of continuation on the syms, but sometimes that's a good thing. Longer pins on syms I've only had issues with when the lanes burn up, with low axis tilt, everything hooks too much on the back end, too sharp. Shorter pins on syms seem to allow you to move right a little bit. But where I bowl, they can get very dry, pretty extreme, so I need at least a couple short pin syms.

[@RalphVincentLJao]

@@EasyBowlingStats i haven't tried using short pins, but contemplating to try it out. I have very low tilt (high track) and i leave a lot of corner pins.

[@deadpolymers3416]

I’m always trying to explain this to people, who don’t understand layouts, but also demand specific layouts. They know just enough to make bad layout choices... the kinds of choices that give them thumping holes, or reactions that are too long and too late, resulting in corner pin city.

[@rickdavis8410]

I think this information would make more sense to me if you were to use the same ball for each of the layouts.

[@badbadbowling101]

It’s crazy but I just found mine!

[@KennyGrinols]

I feel so vindicated and I'm sorry I'm such a petty person, but I do feel like you owe me an apology. Anyways for the sake of science and education: Just a few things we need to touch on. 1: You have to be mindful that flare and core imbalance are not the same thing. And we have to be very direct that the answer changes based on whether the core is Symmetric or Asymmetric. 2: 3½ is usually max core instability for symmetric balls. 3⅜ is technically true, but we have to remember that the low RG of the ball shifts about ⅛ AWAY from the fingers (when drilled) which is TOWARDS the PAP 90% of the time. The post-drilled Low RG is the measurement that matters, not predrilled. 3: In symmetric cored balls, Max instability and max flare are synonymous. 4: In Asymmetric cored balls, max instability and max flare are NOT synonymous. In Asym balls, flare will increase well beyond the 3.5" pin to pap distance, often even up to 5", but this is not static, as the intermediate diff and drill angle plays a role. 5: This means that for Asymmetric cored balls, we can't assume that 2⅜ is the same flare as 4⅜ just becuase both are 1" away from max core imbalance. That is only true for symmetric balls. 6: Symmetric balls lose tilt at nearly double the rate of Asymmetric balls. 7: Contrary to popular belief, and what you displayed with the core, cores don't actually seek on to lay on their sides. They actually hunt to roll end over end. (That's why people use the phrase "stood up" and roll forward) We know this because the PSA, is (most often) 90 degrees away from the Pin. And because we know PSA stands for Preferred Spin Axis, we know what axis the ball prefers to spin around. This can be proven and tested on any determinator, or, you can simply place a piece of tape on your ball, either on your Pin, or the PSA and watch it roll down the lane. It will tell you the exact orientation and migration of that location on the ball. Mo has multiple seminars showing this exercise with multiple different layouts. However, people may get confused, as the short pin layout does put the pin on the side of the ball like you displayed, but thats why it retains tilt, because it intentionally exploits the opposite end if the cores balance point, and most balls have a spin time of 7-9 seconds with constant speed and friction on a determinator, but on a lane with oil, the ball is only rolling for about 2.5-3.5 seconds, while it's slowing down, and limited friction... But I digress. In closing I want to say, I commend you for being a student of the game, and being willing to actively learn, despite your previous beliefs that were seemingly cemented. I understand that 90% of your commentors are morons and as a content creator you have to deal with constant negativity, and trolls, and know it alls like me, so that when someone like myself tried to tell you theae things years ago, its easy to just dismiss me or assume I'm just another troll who doesn't know what I'm talking about. I'm not sure who you recently got with to help open your eyes, but I genuinely hope it helps out your game. The vast majority of what you learned today, has been publicly preached by Mo Pinel for 3 decades now. That was the whole intent behind the dual angle system, the abilty to manipulate anfle ratios, pin to paps, low and high RG contours, to match every bowler with layouts directly designed for their specific tilt and rotation in combination with their rev/speed ratios. Hopefully you can help other people open their eyes too.

[@JAW_73]

Does the ball really try to spin on the PSA on the lane? I don't think it does. It will on a determinator because more energy is being added to the ball. On a lane the energy is always depleting and getting less.

[@JAW_73]

I thought asymmetrical balls lose tilt faster than symmetrical, and that is the reason they are better for high tilt spinners... And why you need to use smaller pin to pap drillings for people with low tilt.

[@KennyGrinols]

@JAW_73 hmmm your username looks awfully familiar from a lot of discussions we had on BowlingChat. Unless I'm misremembering Mo's teaching, I thought he always told us Asyms retain tilt longer. I'd have to go double check, maybe my memory is failing. You still in Sacramento area?

[@Joshuaperalta8]

How do you do a 0 inch pin?

[@leftyMOTIVguy]

I'm in the same boat. I have low tilt and rotation. What is marginally helping me out is that I'm a lefty.

[@pebbleschan6085]

Why doesn’t someone make transparent reactive resins so we can see the cores in action?

[@matthewsmith2051]

They kinda do for development of new balls they have a clear ball they put a core in for testing to see it’s motion

[@dustinmabie4909]

Put a 1" piece of tape on the pin.

[@mikecraig109]

@@dustinmabie4909 excellent info. When that core turns over or goes forward, that tape gets to an almost tilted position on the ball.

[@Joshuaperalta8]

Wouldn't the short pin layout die quickly?

[@BNeault]

I thought you said that layouts don’t matter. You did say that. As a league bowler of several leagues and some tournaments I have found that 2 in short pins do make a difference.

[@Tenpindoctors]

@@BNeault you didn’t watch the video I see. Don’t be a fool

[@mikecraig109]

@@Tenpindoctors I like to irritate a couple of local shops who drink the layouts matter kool-aid here locally by saying that layouts don't matter, talent does. Case in point, a lady who bowls league here locally brings in (3) three ball rollers to league each week.........and then proceeds to send it down the lane as a backup ball with a 140 average all the while wearing her pro shop shirt with the phrase "Lays out Matter" on the back. ??!!. Someone quit taking her money for the latest/greatest and help her become a better bowler first before sending her out with 9 bowling balls to bowl league on house.

[@asdf3544998]

👍👍👍

[@fliboimoney]

It's not FAIR to say to the league bowler, that they won't notice a difference. LAYOUTS have always mattered.. PSO got lazy and started pushing a false narrative, because it's too much work to get to involved with each bowler......I Drill.... I layout balls.....I KNOW.... And Now your trying to explain what elite bowlers know

[@daviddeiss7907]

Soo, layouts do matter?

[@Tenpindoctors]

@@daviddeiss7907 not for most people

[@StacyWillis-d8r]

In the beginning of the video you say how layouts don’t matter unless you’re a pro on the tour and league bowlers won’t be able to see a difference. Most people watching this video are not pros on tour. I do think league bowlers see a difference. There are many league bowlers that are as good or better than some bowlers on tour in my opinion. That being said it’s good information.

[@Tenpindoctors]

@@StacyWillis-d8r 100% completely disagree

[@EviLNox8]

I have no idea what's going on. I'm just going to hand pro shop money, smile and say "make ball good for me"

[@BassRacerx]

this is reasurring. Too much FOMO just to pick a ball and then you have to hope you have the better layout too?? I just let the Proshop take the wheel and it is what it is!

[@rickdavis8410]

You should block this channel so you won’t have to be flummoxed by too much information.

[@fliboimoney]

😂😂 SO layouts matter....

[@brandoncrittenden3939]

Short pins just react earlier. Just lay it out weaker

[@alanbialeck948]

At most, are 10% of the reaction to a bowling ball. It doesn't matter if you're good bad or indifferent. How many pros bowl with a 2 and 1/2 in pin. You are the perfect example of somebody who changes your layout because of ridiculous reasoning. I've watched many of your reviews and you have a beautiful stroke. Work on your head that's where the problem is. Since I've been watching you in the last say year and a half you've changed your layouts three different times. Every time it's a miracle with the new layout and then you change it again. 50% of bowling is in your head. 10% is in your layout 20% is in the core at 70% is in the cover. You should concentrate more on yourself and stop spreading the misery to everybody else. This is inaccurate and as I said before you've changed your layout three times and every time it's been the answer until it's not the answer. Stop it

[@Tenpindoctors]

@@alanbialeck948 you couldn’t be any more wrong