Liminality: the Root of Leftist Values

In The Ritual Process the anthropologist who put Liminality on the map Victor Turner gave a list of contrasts between Liminality and Structure. There is an uncanny resemblance between these values and the values of Leftism. That is what we are going to explore in this episode which in the final episode in our exploration of Victor Turner's work in this field.
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🧾 Turner's list:
- Communitas/structure
- Unselfishness/selfishness
- Simplicity/complexity
- Homogeneity/heterogeneity
- Equality/inequality
- Absence of status/status
- Absence of rank/distinctions of rank
- Suspension of kinship rights and obligations/kinship rights and obligations
- Absence of property/property
- No distinctions of wealth/distinctions of wealth
- Humility/just pride of position
- Anonymity/systems of nomenclature
- Total obedience/obedience only to superior rank
- Sexual continence/sexuality
- Nakedness or uniform clothing/distinctions of clothing
- Minimization of sex distinctions/maximization of sex distinctions
- Disregard for personal appearance/care for personal appearance
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📚 Further Reading:
- Szakolczai Á (2003) _The Genesis of Modernity_. Routledge studies in social and political thought 36. London ; New York: Routledge.
- Turner VW (1995) _The Ritual Process: Structure and Anti-Structure_. The Lewis Henry Morgan lectures 1966. New York: Aldine de Gruyter.
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🎼 Media Used:
1. Long Note Three - Kevin MacLeod
2. Dreams Become Real - Kevin MacLeod
3. Evening Fall Harp - Kevin MacLeod
4. Despair and Triumph - Kevin MacLeod
5. Permafrost - Scott Buckley
6. There’s Probably No Time - Chris Zabriskie
7. Ether Real - Density & Time - The Grey Room
Subscribe to Kevin MacLeod [ / kmmusic ]( / kmmusic )
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Subscribe to The Grey Room / @thegreyroom
Scott Buckley - www.scottbuckley.com.au
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⌛ Timestamps:
0:00 Introduction
01:31 Liminality
03:39 Leftism
05:09 The Liminal Left - Economic/Political
07:10 Authority and Liminality
10:07 The Cultural Left and Liminality
13:39 Conclusion

[@patrickclerkin56]

The sentence about nihilism not being the bottom of the well but another spoke in the wheel of time is a beautiful one.

[@goosewithagibus]

"Life was such a wheel that no man could stand upon it for long. And, like always, came round to the same place again."

[@matthijsbog7276]

Keep up the grind! Love your content. Getting to watching every video published

[@dylanbuckle114]

Why is Liminal such a popular word at the moment?

[@PanSzawu]

Because its perfect for our times

[@bhante1345]

There's a sub culture obsessed with the back rooms.

[@OneLine122]

I was looking at old texts when the Europeans met with First Nations. Those two things communas and structure is pretty good at showing the difference between the two cultures. There is some issues on the sex part. I don't think the communas were continent, quite the contrary, but they were not as obsessed with it because it was not their goal to grow the tribe to take over the world. So for Europeans, it was a duty and an economic need to have children. Not so with the natives, but it does not mean continence either. One thing I found interesting is the way of thinking which was reported as really different. Europeans thought linearly, start to conclusion. The natives thought circularly, wanting to see all sides, just like their political system seemed based on consensus and not something like majority rule or authority rule. It's why the left always comes back to structure, since they are never really commutas, only it's a wish they have, values they derive from negating the structure, but in doing so, they are still thinking linearly. The more I look at this, the more I see it's a thought structure that people can't get over with. If people got rid of those values and the black and white thinking that comes with it, they might progress to something like communas. In real communas, people were just living on the Earth, not trying to have values to impose on others. It does not mean it was free for all, there are other ways to deal with problems, but values is quite impersonal and something you need when you don't know people you live with.

[@amanofnoreputation2164]

The problem is this state doesn't really feel liminal. It just feels like we're stuck in a structure that is determined to strangle and end the human race. Even as things get worse, the structure doesn't improve. Rather than giving way to a transitional space where possibilities open up, our options only seem to grow more restricted. I understand that this hypothesis is intended to explain nihilism of all things, but it's still difficult to shake the impression that structure isn't dying and, more importantly, *letting things go.* The deaht fo Jesus was intended as a symbol of letting go: the old ways fo Judaism demanded that every infraction of God's covenant be punished. But, at the same time, the covenant had become a trap with the Pharisees exploting Gods laws to tyrannize the people. So, as a kind of compromise, Jesus' death was, socio-politically and historically, meant to accomplish two things 1. Jesus would die in the place of any and all people suffering their iniquity. None who come to Jesus are turned away. none are "cut off," as the Torah sayes. So criminals, harlots, and the disenfranchised are welcomed back into the fold. 2. Void the laws themselves and establish a new mode of being based on the spirit instead of materiality: a person's actions and character are to be the measure of their worth, not their possessions. The old Jewish understanding was that nothing bad could happen to a pious man, so if bad things happen to a person, it must necessarily be his own fault even in situations where it is cruel and makes no rational sense for the law to be based upon such presumptions. Like if he was struck by lightning or born a cripple. It didn't work in Jesus' time (in many ways we're better off that it didn't) and we're not getting that now. The more capitalism fails, the more the demons of avarice dig in their heels. Nietzsche's saying, "There was one Christian and he died on the cross," is surely right (though he was more concerned with Christ's manifestation of the ascetic ideal than the socio-political implicatiosn of the gospels and their teachings.)

[@RuneDrageon]

> but it's still difficult to shake the impression that structure isn't dying and, more importantly, letting things go. This perfectly encapsulates my experience in these times, The structure of the world is rotting, yet it seems determined to let us rot with it.

[@rubncarmona]

if it isn't liminal it's quite possibly liminoid, where you're put at the edge of your current state but are offered no resolution

[@SpiritualPsychotherapyServices]

leftism: Otherwise known as “progressivism” and even more inaccurately as “liberalism”, “leftism” is a designation originating from the French Revolution of 1789, in reference to the political faction that opposed the French (so-called) king. However, the term is currently used in common discourse to describe those criminals who actively support (or at least tacitly condone) a host of OBJECTIVELY-WICKED ideologies and practices that contravene dharma, such as non-monarchical governances and corrupt economic systems (particularly socialism, communism, fascism, and liberal democracies), egalitarianism, feminism, perverse sexuality (especially homosexuality, bestiality, and transvestism), multiculturalism, and the illegitimate abortion of innocent, defenceless, unborn children. Cf. “dharma”. In a vain attempt to legitimize their objectively-immoral propensities, crooked leftists invariably replace accurate terms with blatant EUPHEMISMS, such as “gay”, “sex worker”, “pro-choice”, and “queer”, and of course, coin novel words for notions that cannot exist, particularly the nonsensical term, “transgender”. Furthermore, leftists are always inventing truly inane, vacuous words in order to demonize conservatives, such as “homophobia” and “transphobia” (which literally mean “fear of sameness” and “fear of change”). In the past decade or two (of this treatise being composed), the mass media, especially the motion picture industry and television production companies, has been aggressively promoting all the above CRIMINAL ideologies and practices, helping to expedite the destruction of human civilization. Recently, large corporations have jumped on the leftist bandwagon (so to speak), in order to profit. As explicated in Chapter 11 of this “A Final Instruction Sheet for Humanity”, the state of being of any particular human (or any other animal, for that matter) is due entirely to his or her genetic sequencing and his or her conditioning. Therefore, the explosion of the leftist/liberal mentality in recent decades, particularly in Western countries, has been caused by poor breeding strategies overtaking the more conservative tradition of mate-selection of previous centuries (and indeed, millennia), as well as the concerted effort of Marxists to spread their fiendish ideology throughout the school system and via folk culture. In other words, due to the fact that criminal behaviour (especially the deviant sexual acts mentioned above) has become increasingly more tolerated, condoned, and even GLORIFIED in most countries, there has been a proliferation of corrupt genetic codes within the wider human population. According to genealogists, for (almost) the entire history of humanity, most women have successfully reproduced, whilst a far far smaller percentage of males have bequeathed their genetic sequence to proceeding generations. Due to the gradual phasing-out of polygamous marriages in even the most conservative societies, as well as the eradication of poverty in most every country, more and more men (as well as women) have been producing offspring. Thus, the human genome has rapidly become adulterated by inferior genetic material (that is, DNA from truly pathetic, uxorious beta-males, bisexuals, and even homosexual couples who engage surrogate mothers or sperm donors in order to conceive children - something of a rare occurrence in previous centuries/millennia). For centuries, breeders of elite animals such as horses, cattle, and dogs, have understood that, by selecting the finest examples of a particular breed of animal for propagation, it will result in offspring with desirable characteristics. For example, present day thoroughbred horses boast a pedigree of the best-available horses from the seventeenth century. Such breeders are willing to pay enormous sums of money merely to hire the fastest stallions on earth in order for them to mate with their mares. In the case of we humans, women have traditionally chosen the most competent and masculine men with whom to bear children, and in general, have totally eschewed those males who displayed effeminate traits, and who showed themselves incapable of properly supporting a nuclear family. This phenomenon is known as “hypergamy” in the field of sociology. Unfortunately, due to rapid moral decay over the past few decades, Western women, especially, have become extremely sexually promiscuous, resulting in a multiplication of unwanted progeny (and, of course, an escalation of abortions). Boys born to single mothers often lack proper male roles models and invariably become feminized, unable (and often unwilling) to continue a strong lineage of progenitors. The solution to this problem is simply to ensure that society adheres to the principles of DHARMA (see the Glossary definition of that term, as well as Chapter 12). Unsurprisingly, the majority of leftists find it difficult to accept the fact that their criminal mentality is largely inherited (and of course, they are unwilling to acknowledge the blatantly-obvious fact that their ideologies and practices are intrinsically sinful, wicked, evil and immoral in the first place!). It seems the consensus amongst leftist “intellectuals” is that every human mental trait is due entirely to one’s environmental conditioning and social milieu, rather than as a consequence of BOTH one’s genotype and one’s life-long conditioning - a fundamentally-flawed assertion that cannot be scientifically supported. Personally, I would not be surprised if the typical leftist would believe that, if the parents of the twentieth century communist tyrant, Joseph Stalin, and the parents of the Divine Incarnation, Lord Jesus Christ, had somehow crossed the time barrier, and exchanged their baby boys shortly after their births, that Stalin would have grown to become a Prophet for God, whilst Christ would have become a murderous, left-wing dictator! This term was very reluctantly used in the chapter on feminism. I say “reluctantly” because it is unlikely that the term will perdure for many decades longer. This is simple deductive logic, since, as clearly demonstrated in certain chapters in “F.I.S.H”, human civilization cannot survive with such leftist practices and ideologies in place. If you happen to be reading this Holy Scripture a century or more after its conception, you will probably be residing in a nation (as opposed to a country) ruled by a monarch, following the implosion of post-modern, decadent societies. So, either the term “leftism” will eventually become redundant and obsolete, or else, human civilization will devolve into a decadent, diseased state of existence similar to that of the prehistoric era, when the peoples of the world resided in caves or shacks, subsisting on whatever food can be sourced from the surrounding bushland. I trust that you who are reading these wise words will endeavour to influence your social circles to adhere to right-leaning ideologies and practices, such as (above all) monarchical governance, an entirely free-market economy, sexual purity, veganism, and all other virtuous principles. Fear not, for the truth will surely conquer (“satyam-eva jayate”, in Sanskrit)! Cf. “right-wing”. See “multiculturalism” and “socialism”. N.B. In order to clarify the notion of inheritability, it is not being claimed that an adharmic (far-left) couple will INVARIABLY produce leftist children, but merely that it is more PROBABLE that they will do so, considering their genetic genotypes and the idiosyncratic/unique environmental conditioning they are bound to impart to their children, just as two parents with a certain physiological disorder are more likely to generate offspring with that specific disease. In this regard, it is recommended to study introductory texts on genetics/epigenetics. In my particular case, I was raised by a staunch communist, and so, I was indoctrinated to believe that communism was the best course of action for a just society. Indeed, as a teenager, I even volunteered in the election campaign of a socialist politician, who eventually became the Premiere of the state of Western Australia. However, after studying dharma, I came to learn that I was misled by my father in this regard, and that the only system of governance that is dharmic (legitimate) is a divinely-sanctioned monarchy. P.S. As a general rule, it seems (at least anecdotally) that the farther left-leaning is a person, the more physically (and of course, psychologically) UGLY is that person. Unfortunately, that does not seem to prevent leftists from propagating their mutant genes.

[@freniisammii]

The best answer I can give as to why it seems that there has been no change to the structure is pretty simple... It hasn't happened yet.

[@dagon99]

Keep up the great work! Loved your video on monarchism btw.

[@TheLivingPhilosophy]

Thanks Dagon much appreciated

[@sad18240]

What are your thoughts on Camus' observation of rebellion needing clear endpoints in order to be justified? It seems like liminality would be cut of the same cloth he was trying to weave. In other words, why does leftism tend to go beyond the injustices it was originally attempting to overcome and cascades into totalitarianism? Its like that old saying, "it looks better on paper". Are these type of societies that tend to pursue this path so entrenched in repression to the point of not seeing that they themselves become the very aberration they were trying to dispel? Who gets to say when enough is enough. Are hierarchical paradigms not specifically created from this viewpoint? When the village elders were seen with respect from their years of experience no longer have a relevancy in their society, it tends to be doomed to the perspicacity of that society's past.

[@beenNgone]

Liminality being the diffusion of old order rather than a new project seems to indicate an endpoint is antithetical to the process. The endpoint will be defined by new order's emergence, the new order being that which can sustain the process of reconstituting the distributed state, the crystal that forms within the saturated solution. As the diffusion of Western values seems to be a slow process, without significant external catastrophe it could either be a long process, or this is only a superficial reordering, I hope the latter.

[@StrategyCats]

Is goblin mode a form of becoming a liminal entity?

[@bhante1345]

If you're not going goblin mode then you're not even trying.

[@RichInk]

Wonderfully articulated. Longitude and Latitude on the mark.

[@maxheadrom3088]

According to WhatIsPolitics? Left is the absence of hierarchy while Righ is total hierarchy. (Those are the extremes, of course). The dude who makes the videos is very good and though he could disagree with you he would applaud you care to define the terms. It's important to note that "leftist economics" is widely understood to be centrally commanded economy. I don't think it's ok to mix politics and economics under the Left/Right lables. The nazi regime, politically on the extreme right, was center-left in the economic sense. BTW, Noam Chomsky calls the Russian Revolution a "right wing millitary coup". I noticed that, beyond liking Jung (I also do) you have attributed some characteristics to "the left" that are peculiarly American - a country that has no party that is the slightest in the left. What you attributed to the left is actually wokeism - something that not all in the left. Zizek and Finkelstein, for instance, nurture a slight dislike for wokeism - euphemistically speaking. I, myself, hate it - and I have always voted center-left. Oh yeah! There's a left where I live - two Communist party and some 4 worker's party.

[@Lordofthewhyz]

I appreciate it would give you a lot more work to do, and perhaps I’m being lazy, but I’d love to know the artists and works that you display throughout the video

[@Yeo555]

A little bit more into the political-economical and less into the cultural... I think it would be fascinating to explore the liminality traits of our days and the "new world being born" ideas described by Gramsci.

[@renaissancefairyowldemon7686]

Thank you 😊

[@thinkmore8024]

I'm interested in hearing what is it you define as "Nietzschean Existentialist" and "Far-Right Populist" and what exactly they have to do with each other. 1:12

[@TheLivingPhilosophy]

Covered this vaguely in the episode on liminality and nihilism but will be getting much more treatment as we come into talking about Fascism

[@cocoakusubuu7100]

life is liminal by its very nature. we aren't here very long you know.

[@bhante1345]

"It's later than you think."

[@Stunner526]

4:49 I just watched The Babadook for the first time on Halloween, and it's so captivating I've watched it several times since. I've read into some theoretical interpretations and subscribe most to one on the monster representing trauma and depression, but I'm aware of some LGBT ones. Otherwise the context in this video would've gone right over my head. I'm mostly here to say I thought I was seeing things and needed to give the film a rest until I went back to see. Fortunately for me the monster was placed with great social sensitivity/awareness (which I am not surprised by when it comes to The Living Philosophy) and I'm not seeing things...

[@blairhoulton9055]

The babadook was accidentally added to an Netflix LGBT play list. They adopted it as an emblem after that as a cheeky joke. There is no meaning to it than that

[@blairhoulton9055]

The film is about death and trauma. You can empathise for the protagonist as an individual, existentially. It is a bit of a stretch to draw collective meaning from it. Politics is in everything, but not everything is about politics

[@bvabildtrup]

Interesting frame, but I feel like I disagree with a lot of the assumptions in this video, or at least a few important ones.

[@dominicsey3032]

Like what? Do you "think" you disagree or "feel" you disagree? If it's a feeling, it's perhaps more a disagreement with values, not an understanding and rejection of what is understood.

[@Epta197]

I’ve always seen the left and right political spectrum as a circle instead of a line, where the ideals of the right and left circle into each other eventually reaching their most authoritarian and oppressive forms. At that point they reach a state so similar, they are ALMOST indistinguishable from each other.

[@martinyi__3229]

Yeah, I also see the spectrum as more of a horseshoe than a straight, one-dimensional line. I guess humans are humans.

[@Epta197]

@@martinyi__3229 indeed. Also, a horseshoe would be a better analogy wouldn’t it lol.

[@bhante1345]

Given the illusion of dualism, just two cheeks of the same arse bickering at one another pining for a catharsis that can never be.

[@KarlSnarks]

This only makes sense if you disregard the anarchist/libertarian-socialist side of the left, or consider them "less left-wing" than Marxism-Leninism (Stalin's interpretation of Marx and Lenin's ideas) and its offshoots. To me, because leftism is about dismanteling hierarchical power-structures, anarchism and libsoc are on the further end of leftism.

[@yvindlind3223]

​@@KarlSnarksExactly! Horseshoe-theory is exactly the same kind of reductionist drivel they teach in school to make sure all the children will eventually adhere to a centrist agenda, and feel intellectually superior for doing so.

[@johannordkvist8247]

The Rights have also liminality

[@johannordkvist8247]

Some how the liminality is like the Soul & Ego... Live beyond our time. Socialist & Capitalist live with all time...

[@RS-my8kj]

👍

[@jackiemoffitt6780]

Well made and articulated video but it's not really accurate to talk about trans identity as if it were something that emerged in the 21st century. Modern identities of sexual and gender variance were first identified in 19th century Germany and by the Weimar period there was a huge community around it, which was later wiped out by the Nazis. And a lot of the social constructionist rhetoric people associate with Tumblr really started with Judith Butler's philosophy in the 80s. It is true there has been more visibility and a resulting backlash in the last 10 years but it seems uninformed to imply 'transgenderism' is a sign of 21st century decadence/nihilism.

[@richardoldfield6714]

I don't find this supposed fundamental explanation very convincing. Yes, both the far right and the far left both tend to lead to authoritarian/totalitarian states, but this has long been known. But communities (villages, neighbourhoods etc) exist within structured societies - and tribal societies have structures too (chieftains, shamans etc). So posing Communitas and Structure as exclusionary of each other just doesn't work. Moreover, liminality in psychological terms refers to transliminal experiences - i.e. experiences beyond the threshold of everyday consciousness, be they seen as spiritual experiences or experiences of madness. This concept is not exclusively tied to tribal and traditional and rituals - it can apply to individuals disconnected from any tribe or ritual. Moreover, if transgenderism supposedly has its roots in Communitas, and simplicity is a trait of the latter, then how come transgenderism poses a bewildering *complexity* of supposed genders, gender pronouns etc? And how come transgenderism poses heterogeneity and not homogeneity, when the latter is another supposed trait of Communitas?

[@beenNgone]

The whole is in the process of fragmenting, where once there was a minimal number of static categories, the dynamic process of the liminal seeks to reduce this to a continuum. Neither end of the dichotomy is practically possible for absolute totalitarian tyranny will violently collapse into revolutionary anarchy and complete anarchy requires an oppressive tyranny to suppress it. Neither side can win for any period as it is a chaotic system, both need to compromise for stable new order, ongoing escalation can only increase the degree of tyranny required for stabilisation. Ultimately the right will be shocked by its own destructive capability and the left will be terrified by realising its true vulnerability. Of course people are diverse so the right has vulnerability and the left has destructive capability, all things are relative and we must remember the map is not the terrain.

[@vdub6343]

Agreed, but I probably wouldn’t use the term “transgenderism.” It’s associated with a lot of transphobic rhetoric and kinda implies being trans is an ideological *choice;* it is not.

[@richardoldfield6714]

@@vdub6343 Whether or not it involves choice, it still involves a set of proposed concepts/ideas, which makes it an ideology.

[@ZelphTheWebmancer]

@@richardoldfield6714 It's an ideology to want trans rights, a progressive ideology. Being trans in itself isn't an ideology, it's an identity, just like being cis. Hence why using the term "transgenderism" is bad (that and what vdub6343 said).

[@richardoldfield6714]

@@ZelphTheWebmancer Sorry, but I disagree. It may be an identity, but it also involves a set of beliefs (hence ideology) - e.g. that it's possible to change gender, that people are sometimes born into the wrong body, that genes and physiology do not determine gender etc.

[@Faustobellissimo]

I think you had "sexual continence / sexuality" reversed...

[@TheLivingPhilosophy]

Not unless sexuality was in the Communitas (which I'm not realising should have been called Liminality) column. The sexuality of structure is the regular monogamous child bearing loving of structured society. The counterpole to this can take two forms that both break this structural container: sexual continence i.e. celibacy or full on orgy vibes which breaks it in the opposite direction

[@Faustobellissimo]

@@TheLivingPhilosophy Yes, so "sexual continence" should be in the "structure" column.

[@urban_morphology]

Free palestine ❤

[@rigfordthebarbarian2895]

Fhurste!

[@tanmaydusane7026]

unsubscribed.

[@TheLivingPhilosophy]

Out of curiosity what was it that put you off so strongly Tanmay?

[@Formscapes]

​@@TheLivingPhilosophy "How dare you analyze my sacred cow!!!"

[@MediaFaust]

"The far left" isn't a real thing.

[@TheLivingPhilosophy]

Can you elaborate on this a little please? It seems like there's a major difference between Marx and Obama?

[@dagon99]

And just like that, I had an epiphany.

[@bhante1345]

Let me guess, Antifa is "just an idea?"

[@shelbyspeaks3287]

Free palestine

[@jam1087]

That's already getting boring. Any idea what the next fad will be?

[@sovereigndeleon]

@@jam1087 Taiwan, probably.

[@jam1087]

@@sovereigndeleon once again not a real one only one of the simulation

[@pleaseenteranamelol711]

Free us from virtue signallers who say "free palestine"

[@caseybyington7197]

Probably has zero information about the history and mess there is there. It's two groups of people that really both have a legitimate legal claim to that land. And they are all getting screwed by the extremists in both of their governments. Once again the average Joe is screwed because the big dogs wanna fight.

[@Xanthemanawesome]

Embracing leftism causes the decay of society then basically. The moral of the story is society needs structure to function, be it with the institutions it has or the virtues the individuals strive for living in it. Today's progressives hate both these things and thus try to undermine them causing the decay of most Western societies. A good book on this topic is the death of liberalism by Patrick Daneen.

[@RuneDrageon]

What a lazy ad hominem attack, and on roughly half of the political spectrum as well. You should get out more, talk to people who don't share your view points.

[@Xanthemanawesome]

@@RuneDrageon you call it lazy, yet you do not really give a argument in return. At least tell me why I'm wrong, that way I can learn or at least understand your point of view. I stand by what I said for now ✌🏻️

[@RuneDrageon]

@@Xanthemanawesome I called it lazy because these 'progressives' don't just 'hate the structures of the west and want to undermine them', but at least you didn't say they want to outright destroy the west. (You wouldn't believe how much I have heard that ridiculous accusation.) That is why I said you need to have actual good faith discussions with knowledgable people (who mirror that sentiment best case scenario) to figure out what the left really stands for. Depending where you are living that can be hard for a variety of reasons, be it lack of knowledge on their part or worse the frustrating impuls of 'shouting down opponents' instead of trying to engage with them and convince them. The reason I said you should actually talk with someone real is because from my own experience just watching videos on the internet is counter productive, they display content that is geared torwards those already 'in the know' most of the time. Which doesn't contribute to actual understanding. I hope that helped a little, in these times really 'understanding the opponents reasoning and thinking' seems to be a rarety, sadly.

[@RuneDrageon]

@@Xanthemanawesome Oh, also watch the previous videos on liminality and it's importance in Turners model, it sounds like you aren't aware of the videos previous reasons for why liminality is occurring and probably needed. Peace ✌

[@zerotwo7319]

Too much structure also makes society die. Wich is our condition.

[@islamicbeliever1179]

Free Palestine