Talking the Race to World First w/ Echo Meeres

[@-PVL93-]

Gotta love the Echo Crossover discussions, always a good listen

[@m_dep7085]

Way more interesting than the gingi one

[@TheOnlyHank]

😅c

[@morna57]

Absolutely loved this talk after the TGP! Not a raider myself but really interesting to hear how much work there is behind the RWF. Would love to get more of this after future raids!

[@darrylloveridge9894]

I love these, really hope we get one for each tier. I feel Dorki needs a shout out for bringing you guys together under a safe roof so you can chat and realise its all the moronic fans ruining the vibes between the guilds. Also ironically whilst you're discussing numpty fans at 1:44:02, some numpty fan comes in with a triggering comment. Perfect timing that.

[@rksworld4405]

maby unpopular opinion: i rly like the difrent release. i feel the topic is always bringing a lot of atention to the event. it would be more boring if there was nothing to banter/discuss regarding it. i see it as part of the race and i rly like it. even that coment you point out to me is just content and funny. i think the more you care about what others think of you (as a person in the race) the more this takes away from your experience but also as max pointed out himself those people should just stay away from twitter for a few weeks. its not that hard cause im never on twitter unless a world first race just happend and i wanna see people get all worked up. imo this is wholesome that so many people care to that extend

[@i__sloth]

Great convo. Meeres is such a gem.

[@gergosimon2884]

There is just something so wholesome about seeing Max and Meeres having a conversation like this

[@-PVL93-]

The episodes with Roger were also pretty cool

[@20the20]

never heard meeres talk longform like this before. respect the guy so much as a gamer and now, so much as a critical thinker and player. really great takes and opinions.

[@Number69]

His post mdi interview with echo was excellent, would recommend.

[@zippydipity42]

The thing about 10-man raiding is that Blizzard would need to learn how to make mechanics that aren't difficult as a result of your raid size. Most Mythic mechanics feel like their main challenge is the fact that you're a frickin' army and that creates entropy.

[@epi4625]

Very nice editing from the Fronk and nice cutting to relevant footage during discussions from Max in this one. Props to both of you.

[@ElJefeMeech]

I don't get the fanboyism of each individual guild. I fucking love crossover discussions like this, would love to see more of it.

[@ZeroiusProduction]

It's like football or soccer (for you muricans) people like to cheer for their nationality teams, for some absolute odd reason.

[@adbirdk]

Let me introduce you to the concept of tribalism..😅

[@benjaminghazi787]

USA USA USA USA 🇺🇸 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸

[@MALITH666]

> Hell YEAH! as a tank its suck ass to fight big boss models. > I think Echo did the off stream first, got flamed but set a precedence. Therefore by the time Liquid did that people understood that. Plus like Meeres says, it was not sudden and Max talked about it. So at this point people were more like 'yeah it sucks but I guess its a competition, whatever' feeling. I guess the only ones that could grief a guild is sponsors. I am assuming this might become a contract signing clause in future with sponsors. Also Meeres is super Pog for interviews/chats.

[@Dooferification]

I don't think the upgrade system is good for the game. The low teen m+ keys are awful right now because people are getting gear they shouldn't and now they see 16s are what they should do to get upgrades but they haven't timed a 12. Also even my casual heroic prog guild with multiple grandparents in it finished 4 weeks early. We are going to 1 day if the gear is the same

[@Erik_Arnqvist]

Awesome stuff. Love these long discussion videos

[@Floober903]

Loved listening to this live. And you can tell how much these conversations mean to the both of them lol. They had to go but didn’t want the convo to end

[@joshualuttrell7269]

cum

[@TylerJBrown192]

Meeres seems like the coolest dude, and also insanely knowledgable as well. Glad you guys had this chat, it seems like everything between the guilds is at least smoothing over a little bit

[@patrice6373]

I been a LimiT/Complexity/Liquid fan for years.. But honestly, at this point, you can't tell guilds "the only way to compete is to get really good players and keep them" while at the same time saying "We are going to take the best players from top guilds, and its not a bad thing." ... Which one is it? Because there is no actual way that the race can survive too long if any time a guild comes close to possibly competing, you snatch their players. That's not how this works, and unless you expect unsponsored guilds to somehow get players to lock into a contract that keeps them from getting poached, its just not gonna happen.

[@duman173]

Actually just look at any team sport like football where any richer team can gut a poorer teams roster just by buying out contracts or waiting for them to end and offer rediculous salaries. If rwf was more like how real sports are it would mean being more of what people like you complain. Also most player dont want to go to liquid of echo to make money they join them because they want to be world first raiders

[@dennyahh]

just the nature of a competitive activity unfortunately. cut your way to the top is the oldest working strategy.

[@Immersed94]

10 man would definitely make the raids weaker in terms of design, but it would bring back SO many players, including myself. As a former gm, managing a casual guild for 20 man raiding is just awful, and burned me out so much

[@Xe4ro]

Hell yeah! I actually loved the long raid (Sepulcher), it became like "binging a series" kind of moment. The only other race that felt like that was Aszhara with the 24/7 stream from Method ^^

[@alsh8597]

Im the type of guy who uses crit flask + sark cloak and then i blame healers when i die.

[@LukasLLM]

Regarding turning off streams, I wonder if a 'deal' could be made between the RWF guilds - given the sponsors agrees. That each RWF guild is allowed to turn off the stream for X hours of progress, and maybe an additional Y hours on the end boss. Because yes, it is maybe against the spirit of RWF, but sometimes it's also so beneficial due to no global release, so if all parties involved agrees to a set amount of hours, then you can use that wisely (obviously without starting and ending the stream between pulls to 'save offline time')

[@dylan24848]

So I’m a healer, can’t speak for the entire community but for me, I have times where I’m “hot” and times I’m not. I used to play hockey as a goalie and it’s the same thing, very common for goalies to get hot, almost come out of nowhere, for a season and than slow down and than get hot again. Healing is very similar for me. Sometimes I log on and run keys or raid and I’m just not producing like I should, lasts likes a night or a couple days. But then I can get “hot” and I’m just outhealing everything, everything goes so well. I play all the healer specs and right now I’m feeling very hot on my rsham.

[@ivanleonov4579]

Meeres is a real one, good talk watched the whole thing in one sitting!

[@nilsp9426]

Regarding recruitment of healers I have a question: do top guilds use underhealing as a challenge for healers or healer recruits? I always found this fun, at least on a casual level. Just walking through heroic farm with four healers when you really only need two of them just bores me to death. And it is fun as a healer to do something interesting instead of spamming your overpowered overgeared blanket heals on top of an already healthy raid or doing damage 80% of the time.

[@duman173]

imo if it moves to a tournament realm all the curiosity would be who would be the first to get it on live so it kind of would defeat the purpose

[@DaSilencero]

What an amazing conversation between two amazing people. More if this please. Also: More Undercover Raid Leader pls xD

[@necrobooder]

Meeres idea is pure fire 🔥 listen to him Blizz

[@Vikingeek]

Personally, I'd love to see 10 man raiding make a return. Our guild has ended up in this awkward limbo, where we tend to clear heroic fairly quickly, but don't have the numbers or drive to push the numbers to return to Mythic raiding (did as a guild the last 2 expansions), so once we clear heroic, loads of newer guild members leave for mythic guilds, and loads of others end up cancelling their sub until the next season. But everyone always says if 10 man mythic existed it'd be perfect, as we usually have a fairly steady 10-15 players who are at that rough level. But similarly I'd not want to have 10 man introduced at the cost of 20 man. I'd want the RWF to still be in full 20 man mythic raids, but I think there is a niche for a lot of players/guilds who are "better" than heroic, but don't have the resources to do 20 man mythic etc.

[@LeighWesleyMusic]

This convo with Meeres was way better than the convo with Gingi, no offense to Gingi but I feel like you and Meeres can have a talk at closer level

[@Wetekcation]

Banger talk. Very pleasant to listen too and so interesting. Thanks for the content !! Please more of this in depth knowledge ❤

[@cmulvad]

Please bring back 10man! Sure it will never be possible to be balanced against 20/25man, but who cares except the absolute top guilds? In MoP 10man allowed me to clear the whole raid and get almost BiS geared on 2 alts Characters because I found 5-7 other good players for a 1day pr week raid and it was possible to pug the last few and make good progress. That is simply not possible with the current 20man system which requires much to attendance and commitement for otherwise good players that just cannot commit that much time to a game on a week after week basis.

[@adrianreichelt7057]

No matter how both guilds do it, if they could, the toxic fandom will never go away. The Toxic Fans on RWF are the equivalent of Hooligans in any non-e-sport. Some people would fucking shank eachother in the Streets over who killed the androgonous bipedal fantasy dragon first.

[@patrickbower1284]

Releaae 10 man after HOF closes. That way people stick behind roster boss can get mythic xp to apply to more guilds. Increase the player pool 10 fold

[@fokus271]

Nice discussion gents! Meeres seems like such a nice guy. Very nice discussion to listen to 👍

[@KillchainGames]

add more support specs make group sizes 6m with 1 tank 3 dps 1 supp 1 healer composition ...make all supps do no damage but have pure supp offensive defensive and utility. But hey im just an NPC what i think doesnt matter =(

[@Caseman984]

I wish the entire discourse around the race could be as quality as this conversation.

[@booradley6832]

As an educator by trade I would actually love to run a top tier feeder guild, like #5-10 in the world. I would be happy to look at the rosters of the world first and be able to say we helped x amount of those players be who they are today.

[@flashlightman6390]

Ele shaman deserves totem of wrath or skyfury totem

[@jonasbrownlee7279]

I think if 10 man mythic raiding comes out 2 weeks after release, it would be cool.

[@aopsyke]

Fronk you're a monster.

[@bonestryke5391]

Incredible talk. I loved every minute of this, big fan of Meeres so I loved this mash-up. Thanks, Max!

[@mvspy]

Probably unpopular idea. Introduce the Mythic RWF mode (same difficulty as mythic but more constrained) in the game: - you can enter the raid only with the heroic dungeon, raid or crafted gear. (no pvp, no m+, no rare drops) - raid gear earned from any difficulty will get marked with RL name. RL must be entitled for loot to mark other player's loot. You can only wear gear earned from the same RL while running 20m runs only, until the group achieves the CE. - regular mythic run bosses are released only when a RWF guild manages to kill them, or let's say the first 5 guilds. Reasons: - you won't be able to "overgear" early - regular players will be watching you more as they need you to kill the boss first in order to even give a shot on them. This will bring a lot of engagement and a sense of "I'm making something good for the community" apart of the ego of being the best players. - it would reduce the preparation for the raid, and eventually, the burnout as if you get stuck you can do alt runs, rest, farm herbs, enjoy the content etc - trading farm runs will be gone - you will be able to run multiple raid comps with alts for a better loot chance - the raid must tunned to be difficult for low ilvl groups, but will give a chance for less skilled players to experiment the end content with higher ilvl (gearing on LK for mythic was only possible in raids and we also had the boss debuff over the following months to allow other players to do the content) - you'll face the gearing problem of most raid groups - alt groups will feel like main char runs, potentially increasing the views, as they can become mains based on luck or comp - changing the comp to have 10 druids or 5 warlocks to kill a particular boss like it happened in the past will be more complicated as it will need to work for all previous bosses and the following ones as well. - RWF will potentially last a bit longer, but you might be able to rest more - RWF mode could eventually be constrained by a schedule time (if the discussed weekly reset is not doable), so all competing guilds will start and end at the same week day Unfortunately nobody will see this comment.. :(

[@laxer94]

Name a better combo then Max talking about how much Liquid and Echo don't get along then spending multiple hours in calls with them...I'm not even joking that's a guaranteed combo for some of the most enjoyable outside raid content there is.

[@luciany7583]

lol, well in all honesty. if you pug m+ with randoms you do think of passives of all classes. hell when I'm healing I'm even trying to track the cd for pots so I can yell to use healing pots. it's sometimes like a horror game with jumpscares when an ability is happening and you see 1 of the dps moving. I'm playing druid so I legit put ironbark on people in the few frames I have when I see the effect on the screen.

[@OneOfTheLoveless]

Funny how they, on archimonde, nerfed the stand here shit, but now it just pops up again.

[@mendo8234]

Ok i know i'm a neebie and they probably tought about that but when meeres say they can't agree in commun raid progression hours cause it would result in a 5day race i've looked a little about numbers and i find way to do proper 7day progression with common hours. So if by any chance max or meeres saw this comment and are ok to have a little chat it would be really great :)

[@charm8968]

Is there a chance to the get the exact UI shown in the video?

[@Myspartan1000]

The thing is and i always say that. RWF is a different game compared to what I and most of the WOW players play. you could add 10 man and still lets say, let the RWF stay on 20 man because for normal guilds its so hard to find 20 players with similar skill lvl to play with one another. You always are short of some classes and specs it doesnt matter. I never raided with the optimal setup and never will be but i just want to progress with my friends and not be helpless mid content because 2 players quit out of the blue and you cant raid anymore it sucks. And every expansion every patch almost it´s the same. Could have a lot more CE´s then i have currently if thats not the case

[@Tensooni]

the stream stuff i think it was timing and length. To say "last few pulls before bed offstream" feels like a compromise, "whole reset day" sounds like a huge competitive advantage move, or something. Idk. reset politics. I think the similar (but not exactly comparable) thing would be not streaming the entire first day after reset in NA. But I also think the community might be less polar these days? with all these cross-team streams and such? Just my feeling.

[@KakavashaForever]

I agree with Meeres about having a set of agreements across the board, but ESPECIALLY in regards to turning off streams or progressing off stream. The black site with no outside media is also a great idea.

[@x1plus1x]

It's super interesting to listen to these RWF guys talk about their thoughts and perspectives, but their experience of the game is so far removed from the average player that I have a hard time giving any weight to what they are saying the game should or shouldn't have.

[@Magentawow]

Great fucking vid, anyways undercover RL when? pls pls pls

[@KrispyNuggetBoutique]

Winning on time is literally how every single competitive sport works though.

[@QPoily]

Regarding the first 5 min and the gap between the top 2 guilds and the guilds below that being so massive, I wonder how much that's got to do with the community being conditioned to only 'care' about the first guild to beat a raid tier's raid, which by extension means people can only care about the top two guilds competing for that rank 1 title. Basically I'm wondering if we were to put a greater focus on, for example, the top 5 guilds beating a raid tier; would more guilds work towards getting into that bracket since even simply entering the top 5 is prestigious and could therefore be more lucrative? Because as it stands once the first guild beats the raid tier, virtually all hype dies down. Not just from the viewers perspective but also from the raiders competing their perspective as well as from the content creator's perspective. People are typically still a little bit hyped to see the second place guild but beat the raid tier but I feel like it's mainly in the 'lets get this over with' way and not the 'who's going to get the second spot?!' way.` I simply wonder if we put a greater focus from the entertainment/content creator side of things on the lower spots, would we get more people to care for it?

[@RiotAugust]

God Meeres seems like such a dope guy

[@painfullyavarage4316]

10 man should release at the same time cross realm does. Race and placement are already over, its just farm and lower end guilds clearing for the first time. Adjust the mechanics from 20 man after the raid is designed so 20 man stays the same for the race and 20 man guilds but smaller guilds can still experience mythic. It wont be perfectly balanced but a harder/easier fight than normal on 10 man would be much better than no fight at all

[@alterzus]

The thing about turning of stream I know sponsors got there part in it but the race have been a 2 team game for some time, so why not make a genteman agreement between you 2 teams say 2-3h raid can be done of stream for for the whole race those moments when you are close to reset or have something you want to test out but not show. Its gonna be hard to check and prove but then that might make some shut up about it, might even get it to work with the sponsors since I´m sure they can see the benefit aswell aslong the offline stream aint to long and have a set timelimit

[@Darkrampager]

Finding great healers is impossible because the only metric people look at is HPS and that's not what makes a great healer. Dps minded people are bad healers, you have to forgo topping charts to save your friends and lots of people won't do that.

[@OneOfTheLoveless]

Embellishments are basically df legendaries but purple and less interresting.

[@Lightdark1992]

w2hy dont they just made a deal, to wait until EU starts at the same time:D

[@HOBOTw1tcH]

I thought scripe/Roger were the big brains behind echo? I know meeres is obviously a big brain player but I didn’t know he was running things

[@bock5994]

Civil

[@nl626c5]

If they bring back 10 man mythic it'd be great but they should keep some kind of special accolade for the 20 man to differentiate.

[@OneOfTheLoveless]

I do like the idea of being able to jump to phases of a boss when it's 10 or 15 minutes long. Maybe make it 2-3 bosses, doesn't even have to be loot in it.

[@ryananderson1887]

This tier seemed like another Emerald Nightmare. Maybe not THAT easy but being used to having the last few raids last over a week, sometimes even more.

[@billyb840]

No money in RWF? So you guys aren’t streaming and getting ad revenue? You’re not accepting donations during rwf?

[@hr329085]

It's basically a small, yearly bonus. They've talked about how much money they get from it. It's not much at all, especially compared to even small esports.

[@felixvondiedelse5211]

i loved the 10 Man raiding in the past. There where so much little an succsesful groups. Bring it back Blizzard

[@rolandpaal1878]

We need seperete servers for wold first race.. but that excludes helpers from the play.. but when race is over u can come back to the land of the living..

[@deadclicks]

imo the best approach for most of the Race to World First's problems can be solved by adopting Destiny 2s contest mode

[@gustavo7074]

Problem with the upgrade system is that blizzard opened the gates of hell. Like, it will be hard to nerf the speed you get the gear, if took 3 weeks this patch and the next it takes 9 weeks. The community will explode.

[@IamMattFleetwood]

Can someone ElI5 Meere's idea to me lol. I'm not really getting what he's trying to say, yet everyone definitely likes the idea.

[@hanatainn]

The fact that Rodger one of the best players in the world literally can't be in raid because his class has no value is tragic.

[@m_dep7085]

Max and meeres podcast when?

[@ertert4tetert]

No way you could make as many interesting fights with 10man raiding. The encounters would suck hard compared to 20man.

[@benb7665]

RWF without either team would not be entertaining. Both guilds rely on the other to make it a spectacle. That's the beauty of it.

[@jakenewingham3185]

I would love to see a mythic raid on live with the best tank from both teams, the best 2 healers from both, and then the top dps from both teams, go into a mythic raid and see how crazy that goes.

[@big123lak]

The thumbnail looks like it’s straight of family guy

[@filipmanov8951]

" oh yes gearing this patch is easy " , still no fucking experiments trinket , i have been doing normal and heroic since the begining of the patch

[@Soulessdeeds]

Shadowlands REALLY too such a toll on WoW and the raiding guilds. Blizzard doubled down and crushed the spirit of people. And they didn't back off till the damage was already done. Now Dragonflight is paying heavily for the sins Blizzard did in previous expacs. Even though DF is easily one of the best expacs the games seen in years. But you reap what you sow.

[@needsanameedit4982]

SL destroyed my optimism for the future of the rest of that expansion, just so many bad moves and stubbornness from the devs. The changed mindset still hasn't produced enough for me to come back for any of the patches after the initial launch of DF. As a solo casual player, I tried DF and decided to wait until 11.0 to see if they add in any worthwhile content to play. I feel like they didn't fully commit to the revamps of professions and the talents but they might do that next expansion. Dragonriding is awesome but it's not actual content.

[@KillchainGames]

Most people that raid to kill for fun still want smart choices made.

[@Macwall74]

this is masterclass in how to get ppl to volunteer all the information you ever need to know about the inner workings of your competitors. if i was any part of a leadership of a guild i'd 100% ban anyone of my ppl from talking to this dude. cuz gd he's a master manipulator when it comes to sounding like he's saying alot but really saying nothing of actual value while simultaneously leading them into saying everything

[@LimitMaximum]

I know this is late but this got me real good and I wanted you to know that

[@manog2105]

I dont even play anymore, stopped after vault. But I love listening to these chats.

[@lampshades5436]

Would love to see your thoughts on 10 man or even 15 man mythic raiding instead of 20 man that we have now

[@Gewsfrahba]

it is objectively more valuable to make raiding 10 man for accessibility than to maintain integrity

[@wowsew]

Max stop letting commenters get to you bro, its obvious its bugging tf out of you. post and ghost

[@TheDickWard]

If there was a RWF on a tournament realm, honestly, I don't think I'd watch. The thing that separates RWF from the other events for me is that it's happening on live servers. Liquid and Echo and my top 1000 guild are all playing on the same thing. If there are server issues, we're all dealing with them. If there's a bug to exploit, we're all able to do it. It's so much more interesting to me to see that. I think if there was a Blizz based RWF, there'd still be a community run version on live servers. Like, we'd all still be interested in who wins the tournament realm version, but I'd be more interested in seeing who actually completes the raid first on live. Teams would have to make the decision of which RWF to participate in, and I think that would split everything in a way that only encourages more "Well sure but they didn't do it on live" discourse.

[@coencasey7230]

FYI, I promote the going off stream to gain a little insight into a fight for progressing to win!

[@Dacrook802]

Holy shit i haven't heard the term power aura used in a while, thats a throw back.

[@monarchist9691]

meeres so chill. was an interesting chat to listen to

[@ralphinoful]

Yeah... This race hard baited me into thinking this would be an easy tier. M sark probably dies tonight for us, and it was certainly not an "easy" tier, at least compared to what we thought it would be. M Rashok in particular... I felt so bad for world 1500 and lower guilds. They basically hit that boss, hit a hard wall, and were at max gear. So there was little to no hope for them.

[@chiefputty]

Max "let me know what you think" then goes on a 3 minute diatribe.

[@Frozen6002]

as a scandinavian staying up to 5 am is normal i think having no day/night cycle is somewhat a reason for it

[@TenSyc]

so Sepulcher was your guys' namek saga

[@peen2804]

Never heard or heard of meeres before as I don’t keep up with rwf stuff outside of casual max content but what a cool and intelligent guy

[@Catarun]

nice convo! but holy shit the amount of times you guys say cook lol

[@BrokunWagonwheel]

I think if they let you earn the same amount of crests a week you can now, but spend less of them in the first few weeks that would be a fair comprimise

[@AzelasEM]

Madge that there is no wubby timestamp

[@Cafe_TTV]

What? When did BDG disband? 😢

[@lunaslair6162]

“All the miserable people on twitter” said ad infinitum, with as much creativity as you can imagine. I wonder if he has such contempt for all the fans, even the ones he actually replied to after the race or it’s simply miserable = disagrees with me at all. Puerile

[@QPoily]

Dunno, that's not the vibe I get from Max when he talks about toxic fans. If anything I appreciate his constant attempts to make it clear he's talking about the toxic fans and not fans in general when he starts generalizing a bit.

[@zzxxccvv01]

@@QPoily he is generalizing lol he thinks that mentioning echo in his chat is toxic and perma bans it, whether its a positive or negative thing said by the chatter. Legit impossible to watch his streams during RWF. The competition itself IS about talking about both competitors progress, whether they are better or worse than you, but mr maxsoyboyimum cant understand that. But sadly its just NA culture i fear since most of NA streamers are virtue signaling PMA soyboys And i will mention it before you get the wrong idea. I love liquid and i root for them. I also watch max's vids when he talks about the game, but everything RWF-related is too cringe to watch

[@Deanpierce88]

Hot take, scalping Pieces and Bdg’s players was bad for the longevity of the race (popularity, etc) kind of like how unattractive it would be to watch 3 league teams compete against each other. Great discussion!

[@Avdbz]

Meeres his stopword being “myeah” is oddly captivating 😅