Lines That Never Were: Holborn to Waterloo

[@nanduthalange7736]

I was a member of the King’s College pistol shooting club in my distant undergraduate days - the firing range occupied part of the disused tunnel to Aldwych. I was informed by the administrator that the tunnels actually do go under the Thames, and, as was said in the video, priceless relics from the British Museum were stored there. Of course, I have no idea if this is true, though it seems quite likely - the tunnels at Aldwych stretch south into blackness - tantalising!

[@Fagocytos1s]

Wow what an interest fact I am enraptured I remember once

[@flamegaming1846]

I’m not a Londoner,in fact,I’m not even from the UK!But I don’t know why I really enjoying your facts though.And your voice,it’s wonderful

[@JagoHazzard]

Thanks!

[@waitingforanalibi2224]

Its why im glued to them aswell!

[@sparkidee]

The Prodigy filmed their most famous track 'Firestarter' in the tunnels of Aldwych :) its a great little place to film which is why I think it'll stay like this to make money.

[@raedwulf61]

I used to visit London quite a bit, but due to a change in job conditions, I haven't been there since 2013. These videos are like visiting an old friend!

[@Bob_the_Jedi]

I certainly hope we see Aldwych open again someday!

[@Jeagles]

Bob the Jedi It most likely won’t since its so profitable for filming

[@mittfh]

"Try it yourself sometime" - cue Geoff and Vicki putting that theory to the test...

[@thegreybeard3441]

This great station is still used by London Underground/Tfl for training. Emergency Services also get involved to practice emergency scenarios on a regular basis.

[@1963TOMB]

The red box on the RHS of the station frontage @ 2:45 contains the station plans: when London Fire Brigade (LFB) turn up after a 'shout' they go to the RVP point and get the plans for the station: for some reason they cannot memorize the layout of all the stations!!!😁. It is also important that the LFB radios can operate from anywhere within the station back to a vehicle parked at the RVP: it they dont, LFB have the authority to close the station (N/A at Aldwych obviously!!!)

[@SormonAusPol]

As you said. Aldwych was doomed once is was left as a pointless spur of the Piccadilly line. Had it gone to Waterloo it would likely still be open today.

[@highpath4776]

Still an ackward junction at Holborn though, the picadilly stuggles with having three western termini as it is with just effectively one (well some some turnback platforms en rout) to the East.

[@Jeagles]

I had the fortune of going on one of the hidden London tours of Aldwych. Your video mentioned most if not all the facts I learned there, plus more, and has great visuals. It’s valuable nature as a film set will probably keep it closed as a station

[@MichaelDreksler]

I think they use the Jubilee platforms and pedestrian tunnels at Charing Cross for filming too IIRC

[@paulchoccyt1303]

It is so funny when you see it in a film, the station is so dated and even the tube trains they often use are from 70's and 80's

[@Jeagles]

@@paulchoccyt1303 a resident Mk1 1972 stock lives there, the last Mk1 72 in existence

[@trucktalkvideosandy8185]

I'm a fan of London but i do like it's history as specially in the war i'v been watching this channel for six weeks now and it never fails to impress...

[@JagoHazzard]

Thanks!

[@Titot182]

My dad's old office (Bush House/BBC World Service) used to overlook that Aldwych exit. I used to remember the spur platform on the Picadilly at Holborn.

[@Auldpharte]

I was at Kings in the Strand in 1968-69. I occasionally used Aldwych then. Trains were infrequent, and mainly a way of avoiding heavy rain and cold winds.

[@JonathanEllis12]

How did I not discover this channel sooner! Brilliant content and you've acquired a new subscriber here! :)

[@WilliamHBaird-eq2hp]

When I was 8 years old I recall looking out the Tube windows with my face against the glass at the darkened "Strand" Station platform as we passed slowly through it ... It was spooky and interesting at the same time. This was around 1970 but not sure what line I was on. The Circle maybe?

[@ttrjw]

Northern Line - www.citymetric.com/transport/long-and-confusing-history-explains-why-charing-cross-and-embankment-are-so-weird-3650

[@alanroderick7153]

Did a stills photoshoot there a few years ago. Great fun going down the 131 steps to the platform and on to some old carriages down there, but a bit of a hike back up them ! Amazing to see all the old Green tiles and looking in excellent condition (in some areas).

[@fuzzylon]

Thanks for explaining this. I used to travel through Holborn tube station every day and could see the Aldwych line was a separate shuttle and was shown on the maps as such, but it didn't seem to make any sense why they would build it that way. Having looked at the maps it seems a real shame they didn't extend the line to Waterloo. It would be a short distance, improve access to Waterloo from the Holborn area and reduced the crowding on the Piccadilly/Bakerloo and the Drain.

[@TheEarlofK]

Aldwych (Strand) is really in the wrong place for a Tube station, it's located in one of those nether regions in London where the footfall has always been sparce, nobody has a good reason to be there. I think its continued future lies as a film location, which has served it pretty well.

[@RobertMitchell-qh5jg]

Another brilliant film. When the present Piccadily line stock , was ordered it comprised two types of unit both of three cars . One type Driving motor DM Trailer T Non driving motor NDM ( motor coach with no cab ) The other type Driving Motor DM Trailer T Driving Motor DM Two units form 1× train but an extra DM T DM unit was orderd for the Aldwych shuttle

[@swiper1818]

I used this station many times to access the tube as it was extremely convenient for where I needed to travel to and from...

[@pipuk3]

"We hope to build this line to encourage theatre goers to use it" *bulldozes theatre to build new line* O.o?

[@Taporeee]

Are you Jay Foreman and Geoff Marshall's chilled cousin?

[@jimtaylor294]

My thoughts exactly XD.

[@JagoHazzard]

Alas, no. I did once see Vicki Pipe in public a while back, but she looked busy and I didn’t want to hassle her.

[@mr51406]

@Jago Hazzard: and you sound like David Mitchell, which is cool, I like the attitude. 😎

[@vanillasplash6198]

He sounds nothing like David Mitchell. Voice isn't nasally enough

[@mirzaahmed6589]

Love child.

[@gwr5029]

I'm intrigued about the short-lived Finsbury Park to Strand (Aldwych) service. I just can't figure out its routing, as there has never been a direct connection off the westbound line to the branch line. In fact, the westbound platform at Holborn is lower than the eastbound and branch platforms. This was necessitated to allow the westbound line to pass under the branch tunnel.

[@RobertMitchell-qh5jg]

Your correct the Aldwych to Finsbury Park service only could operate in the northbound direction. When the line was built it was very much in " theatreland " . However over the years theatreland has moved east .

[@2H80vids]

@@RobertMitchell-qh5jg Some sort of signalled move must have been possible, in order to get a train in there in the first place. Presumably, a north/east-bound train could reverse onto the branch at Holborn? That would explain the lack of a southbound, through service from Finsbury Park too. I've read about the "theatre specials" in various sources and some suggest that they ran in both directions. None of them offer any suggestion as to how the trains accessed the branch though, so I'm inclined to believe the "northbound only" version. 😁

[@SportyMabamba]

@@2H80vids there were also Theatre Specials run as expresses on the Northern Line’s predecessors, which may be where some of the uncertainty comes from. But those ran Leicester Square to Golders Green

[@2H80vids]

@@SportyMabamba Interesting. Don't think I've ever heard of these. I'd be intrigued to know a bit more about these. Did they run into Leicester Square as empty coaches I wonder.

[@swededude1992]

Platform 6 at Holborn, the Aldwychplatform, is buried underneath concrete, and don't connect to anything mainline Piccadilly. If we want to connnect platform 6 to mainline Piccadilly, the platform 4 at Holborn is blocking and needs to be rebuilt too. 2 platforms needs rebuilding to connect mainline Piccadilly to Aldwych. I am not sure if platform 6 where ever oppend for passengers or not in the early years. Platform 5 at Holborn, the Aldwychplatform connects to both Aldwych and mainline Piccadilly. Can be reopend if wanted/ needs to. Platform 2 at Aldwych connects to mainline Piccadilly. Can be reopend if wanted/ needs to. Platform 1 at Aldwych where opend for passengers a short while. But closed within 10 years, about the time for W.w.1. Lack of passengers where the reason for closure. Today the platform is bricked off from the world and possibly the only place with original tracks and electrics left from the time Aldwych first oppend. Those tracks and electrics are heritagemarked and connot be upgraded or replaced with modern technology. To reopend platform 1 at Aldwych we need to knock down the blocking wall and specialbuild modern metrotrains enabling change of technologies on the fly.

[@DoubleACbg]

I think a runaway train scene from the film Superman IV: The Quest For Peace was filmed at Aldwych that had Christopher Reeve’s character flying through the tunnel

[@timelordtardis]

On the occasions that I have to go to London I have to go from Waterloo to Holborn. A direct tube line would (have been/be) a boon.

[@georgethomas7814]

The latest video in a set of 63...... fascinating subject and still even I can see the but wait there is more...... thank you for the summary it is very well presented.

[@unlapras9365]

I'm from France and I love your channel ! Thanks to you I have learnt so much interesting facts about the Tube. Now I want to visit London ;) I hope you'll keep making videos like this one !

[@colinshearring3934]

My father worked for the Lee Conservancy Catchment Boards whose office was on Waterloo Bridge Strand/Aldwych was ideal

[@MatiPryjomko]

As soon as you said it was used for films I went "V for Vendetta!". I looked it up, and yes, I was right!

[@Karaokeoggie]

Back in 1987 some colleagues and I from Leeds University travelled by hand cart from Holborn (off peak) to collect some scientific gear that had been used by Imperial College in a side tunnel and donated to us for use at the South Pole. Got some funny looks as we carried large crates up the Holborn escalators. We were covered in thick soot from the journey.

[@susiewickham9990]

I travelled on this... Out of fascination only ..chuckling

[@jimtaylor294]

Probably one of the neatest abandoned stations' I've seen, though her status as a filming location makes that rather fitting. Would be rather interesting if a couple of these defunct stations were made into mini-museums, a snapshot of an earlier age in the tube's history.

[@georgethomas7814]

I thought there was a Museum like station for but uncle google cannot find it.

[@stephengoldborough5189]

@@georgethomas7814 that would be Quainton Road, former Metropolitan line station, closed 1936, deep in rural Buckinghamshire..... now a railway heritage centre

[@stephengoldborough5189]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/hGS7hZZ9mNmDb7M

[@georgethomas7814]

@@stephengoldborough5189 No thats a service tram line, not a disused underground station like the Old City Hall Station that was used in Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them, the movie. Last thing I could find was that they were still running tours but it was more of a look at the set, than look at the beautiful underground station. I thought there had been an older station that was already being used as a Museum. p.s. the station used in Harry Potter was Westminster Tube station, closed the day of filming.

[@stephengoldborough5189]

@@georgethomas7814 if it's on a UERL or LT map / timetable it's an Underground station... 😀 and it was on the GCR mainline too.

[@davidgrant8824]

I love the work of Leslie Green.

[@ttrjw]

I used to work for London Underground. A long-serving colleague said that the extension of the Aldwych branch to Waterloo got dumped because it was realised that it would be too popular - and Holborn would be overwhelmed with traffic from Waterloo. The corridor between the two is heavily bused.

[@MichaelDreksler]

I did that journey by bus for years and it is not very nice

[@AchyutChaudhary]

Very interesting ... keep up the good work and the videos 👍👍👍 :)

[@CadyCTSlover]

Thanks for the videos! Would be keen to hear about the Fleet Line.

[@pulaski1]

Thank you for that interesting snippet of Tube history. :) @3:00 I made the Waterloo-Holborn journey, more or less (Waterloo to Shoe Lane) on foot myself, for about three years and I can confirm that it is indeed easier and quicker, not to mention less stressful, than taking two tube journeys.

[@acciid]

There's also the 521 bus which makes it easy. I did the same journey for a while and would take the bus when the weather was bad or I was running late. Otherwise walk.

[@TheKlink]

I do like the idea of using tube tunnels as cycle routes, but, once again: costs, benefits, etc.

[@wickiezulu]

Had one of the North Western & Charing Cross Railway proposals for a (sub-surface?) mainline rail tunnel between Charing Cross and Euston been built like the nearby Snow Hill Tunnel (now part of Thameslink), a case could have probably been made for a Waterloo to Holborn tube route to instead be part of an alternate Northern Line towards Euston in place of the real-life Charing Cross branch (provided the latter isn't later built in some form as a deep level express route akin to real-life Northern Line extension plans).

[@johncassels3475]

I always appreciate your videos. Noticed the wartime photo of Aldwich did not show the characteristic four-rail system the tube uses, Might have been the angle but how about a video on why the London tube uses such an unusual system unlike the more normal three-rail system? What is the history? Thanks.

[@Ass_Burgers_Syndrome]

They removed the current rails so that people could sleep there. Maybe also for safety so they didn't accidentally turn on the power and fry everyone!

[@wickiezulu]

As for the actual proposal from Holborn to Waterloo, was the envisaged alignment for the terminus to be situated southwest towards Lambeth and Millbank with Aldwych itself to either interchange with or be re-sited to Temple? If so maybe it ties in to the 1901-02 Piccadilly proposals for a branch to Parsons Green from Knightsbridge via Brompton Road?

[@meandmyvelo]

In the early 1980's I helped build and maintain a muon detector array in the unused tunnel as part of my work as a physics technician for the University of London. The benefit being that the lower energy particles were filtered out by the earth above.

[@PlanetoftheDeaf]

The idea of Aldwych being attractive for theatre traffic was a bit flawed when the main Piccadilly Line already goes through theatreland anyway, Covent Garden, Leicester Square and Piccadilly circus cover it comprehensively! I did enjoy using the station though

[@AidanMmusic96]

Loving these videos! Have you ever done a video on the Epping-Ongar stretch of the Central Line, or the heritage railway?

[@highpath4776]

Of course the Aldwych area itself is worth videos on the building of Kingsway, and it has the other part abandoned tunnel/s there - One for the Tramway out onto the Embankment, with the intermediate Aldwych(?) Tram Stop and the end at Holborn. And further up at Kingsway and Chancery Lane are the tunnels containing GPO (actually its the Government Telecoms Lines) interlinks for Whitehall / Legal / Bank Financial secure lines and exchanges)

[@jimtuite3451]

Yes, a video on 'Kingsway' telephone exchange is way overdue and perfect for this channel

[@JagoHazzard]

As it happens... kzbin.info/www/bejne/rqPZiIKNaLWpsJI

[@williamhuang8309]

Time for the humble W & C line to get an extension.

[@flyman1365]

What I find most surprising is that Aldwych station was built with three lift shafts; provision for up to 6 lifts. This seems unduly generous given that Leicester Square struggled with 5, and the 8 at Piccadilly Circus, 4 each for the Piccadilly and Bakerloo, were separated from each other. There were already two tube lines from Waterloo to the Charing Cross end of the Strand and also the "drain" to the City so I don't see that many passengers would have used Aldwych as a start or end point.

[@onceways]

Jago, have you ever covered the blocked Northern Line loop at Embankment?

[@RogueWJL]

Ironically Theatre is (or was) booming and it may have been more used than ever if was still in use. I would like to think it does have a future and I think the Picadilly extension to Waterloo made perfect sense

[@michaeldonahoo461]

The Government wanted the station closed in 1958. The Civil Service closed it 1994. Sir Humphrey Appleby would be proud of anyone who could delay a Government Policy for 36 years!

[@MrGreatplum]

I expect for training and filming purposes, Aldwych is pretty useful. I’m guessing it’s still connected to the network?

[@tt-ew7rx]

For years I walked through Kingsway daily without even thinking of using this tube link until it suddenly closed and I did not get to use it even once :-( However it was quite normal for me to move faster than the surface traffic along that road :-)

[@1258-Eckhart]

Just looking at Franklin Jarrier's excellent underground map, It is almost criminal negligence not to connect this now redundant spur with Waterloo. Firstly, the length of new tunnel is barely more than the width of the river Thames and secondly, as Franklin's map shows, the existing Waterloo and City station is perfectly aligned to take the new tunnels from Aldwych, so that one could run alternate trains from there to Bank and (say) Finsbury Park, giving a decent and no doubt popular direct connection from King's Cross/St. Pancras to Waterloo. Holborn would need remodelling to provide two track onward running to Waterloo.

[@1258-Eckhart]

@@sihollett Gosh, thanks so much for this reply - it is of course the answer to the continued redundancy of Aldwych. I was thinking in only two dimensions, for an engineer reprehensible, I admit. But, but but: The through connection remains deeply attractive as a N - S relief for Thameslink: from the W & C Waterloo terminus, one would therefore have to dive under the District and rejoin the Piccadilly in the tunnels north of Holborn either before or after Russell Square. If the latter, Kings Cross could be a completely new deep level station, thus relieving the Piccadilly entirely and making an RER-style express connection between NE & SW London Termini (Euston and London Bridge would become the NW & SE equivalent).

[@mastertrams]

@@sihollett About getting under the District... Isn't the Piccadilly a deep tube line? Compared with the District's sub-surface line? I would have thought it was easy to get under the District. Plus, you don't exactly need to re-open the station building, just build some passageways, and let the Piccadilly serve Temple station... Is Aldwych really just below the surface?

[@mastertrams]

The only obstruction I can think of are sewage tunnels under the Thames. Beyond that, I don't see how this project couldn't go ahead (this is assuming money is raised quickly), but I probably should check to see if your point about getting down to the W&C platforms is as much of an obstruction as you say it is...

[@mastertrams]

I cant find a depth for Aldwych station, but the highest platform at Holborn is a good 35-40 meters below the stretch between Embankment and Temple, and as for the Waterloo and City platforms... Ahhh, right, so the Piccadilly line would be coming from about 35-41 m below sea level, whilst the W&C platforms are a mere 6m below sea level... Well, does that not leave plenty of space beneath the W&C platforms? It's deeper even than the Jubilee, which is currently the deepest tube line at Waterloo at 30m below sea level...

[@mastertrams]

Also, this platform beneath the W&C would mean no compromise for the Waterloo // Bank service, enabling a full service for both routes. As for a problem mentioned in another comment, the Piccadilly only has one eastern terminus, compared to what would be three eastern termini, so an expansion of Cockfosters station would be necessary, TfL opt for a northbound extension too, which the Greenbelt would most likely put an end to... Maybe it could be extended to the likes of Potters Bar and Hatfield. I dunno how that conundrum would be solved, but it would have to be if this extension to Waterloo were to take place.

[@goodwood-rc4nx]

watched every tales of the tube in one day like the cut of your jib and will keep an eye for more of theseexcellent series of videos p.s subscribed as well

[@HSMiyamoto]

Had Thameslink not been built, a Finsbury Park/KX/StPans to Waterloo underground route would be good for intercity travel. However, now a Holborn to Waterloo route would primarily serve more local needs.

[@davidsmith7124]

Using the existing tunnels would prohibit the use of intercity trains - just too small. It could only ever be a commuter service that uses the deep-level underground trains.

[@HSMiyamoto]

@@davidsmith7124 You're missing my point. I meant the actual process of transferring from one passenger terminus to another, for example, Kings Cross to Waterloo. The way that it used to be necessary to ride the Metro to change trains in Paris, and the way it is still necessary to ride a subway to get from North Station to South Station in Boston. I never meant a direct service across the entire island, such as Thameslink allows.

[@davidsmith7124]

@@HSMiyamoto Ahhhh makes a lot of sense for improving connections then. I think a new pair of tunnels would be needed going northwards though, because the Piccadilly line is already running close to capacity so any Waterloo-King's Cross services using the existing tunnels between Holborn and KX would mean cancelling existing Piccadilly line services.

[@michals4249]

Underground cycle route ! Amazing , we can get rid of annoying, not with it , not thinking cycling people all together ! Happy Mr Khan and happy Londoners !

[@sotabaka]

I propose a multimodal route cicle>canal>sewer when filled with cyclists open the gates and wash away 😈

[@rgmusicom]

Have you done a video on the link from Waterloo to Blackfriars that went through the concourse at Waterloo?

[@JagoHazzard]

The Rich Gordon Music Company It was mentioned in my video on the Waterloo and City Line.

[@rgmusicom]

Jago Hazzard Yes, sorry I ought to have been clearer. It was seeing that part that inspired the question. Have you or do you plan to do more on that particular feature? I think it’s utterly fascinating.

[@ironjade]

In TV and movies it doesn't matter which station the characters enter, when they're below ground it's always Aldwych.

[@SportyMabamba]

Except when they want a contemporary station, then they use Charing Cross (Jubilee)

[@yorkshireball_animations]

Was it true that Aldwych, North Weald and Ongar were all closed on the same day? If that’s the case, I wonder how many people attended both events.

[@montedaestrada3563]

I remember this station but I cannot remember why I was in this part of London. Nothing good Im sure.

[@ThomasTrue]

Is that where the underground scene in V for Vendetta was filmed?

[@DavidShepheard]

I think that turning the railway line from Strand Station to Holburn into a cycle route is probably about as sensible as the plan to put helecopter landing pads on top of British Rail terminal stations in London. It's technically possible to do it, but pointless.

[@mistie710]

A cycle what?

[@frglee]

Seems a shame to waste a tube branch. Waterloo to Holborn (and Kings Cross/St Pancras) could be a very useful line.

[@EASYTIGER10]

Surely the main benefit was not to join Holborn to Waterloo, but a direct link between Kings Cross/St Pancras and Waterloo?

[@johnnyboy3949]

Would have been good if you could go direct from kings cross to Waterloo

[@R.C.A.F.V.R.]

What was the green plaque on the side of the station in the opening shot is it about its wartime use or the lane on the side of the station

[@davidw1518]

I wondered much the same thing. Perhaps Jago would consider a series on London's green and blue plaques?

[@crayzmarc]

Hope it does! Great vid

[@jorgedasilva2054]

Subbed! Great videos by the way very interesting.

[@ianhelps3749]

The idea of extending the DLR from Bank to Charing Cross via Aldwych is interesting. However, DLR trains would not fit inside Charing Cross station as it is, so the station would need to be completely rebuilt.

[@gymnasiast90]

Hm, why would DLR trains not fit? Couldn't they use the abandoned Jubilee Line platforms?

[@highpath4776]

@@gymnasiast90 they could probably fit in the abandond walkways. In truth there is probably insufficent tunneling space under fleet street to fit the DLR. You are unlikely to get enough extra passengers though to make it worthwhile, with Crossrail making space on the Central Line another route through connecting West End and City would be difficult to justify.

[@_Rhort]

Looking forward to another #Tale from #TheTube xx

[@a-skepticalman6984]

It's now a secret base for Evil Genius Dom....C.......

[@HealingPathfinder]

I like the DLR idea

[@LordHeath1972]

Everybody's favourite non-operational station!

[@Echoes1910]

Aldwych was doomed from the start. They never actually even fully completed the station with some tunnels remaining untiled to this day. Until fairly recently there was a 72 stock train down there, however that has since been removed I understand. I haven’t yet visited Aldwych, at least, not been inside it. I’m due to finally visit it in 10 days time.

[@jorgeodelar974]

Turning the tunnel into a cycle route would be the best option, I suppose.

[@jorgeodelar974]

@@sihollett ok, sorry. I didn't know that. I'm from Argentina and I've only been to London once in my life. I think you're right, and, for the time being, the old tube station should stay just like it's now.

[@jorgeodelar974]

@@sihollettgood point. I agree.

[@jayh9529]

Jon Levi channel is an alternate thought on the construction of things

[@ASDAPIX]

They should have built it. I suppose they could still do it. It would be an excellent idea.

[@Rendezvous70]

The underground is in the top 3 reasons i go to London

[@selvifrost8089]

The eight people that disliked were just upset the line wasn't built-

[@davidburke1794]

What's the deal about Mornington Cresent? Why is that name so popular and how long was that station around?

[@JagoHazzard]

It became famous because it became the name of a parody game on the radio comedy “I’m Sorry, I Haven’t a Clue.” The station is still very much around.

[@C1dagoat491]

could the Holborn to Aldwych branch be connected with the Waterloo and City line

[@JagoHazzard]

chris.lxmonides I think it would have to take a sharp jag East. But it may be possible.

[@highpath4776]

@@JagoHazzard Dont forget the old (now flooded) under thames loop of the Northern Line from Embankment before it got to Kennington). (I fell asleep once and travelled the Kennington Loop !!)

[@thierrydevant7690]

Beautiful entrance of a station, shame it looks the way it does, lifeless.

[@acciid]

It's great inside too. If you ever get a chance to go on a tour, take it.

[@delideli9684]

vv

[@szarusz]

map, more maps. Everything you say has to convert to a line on a map. Otherwise it's words that not all of us can immediately position.

[@silviasanchez648]

Unpopular opinion here: if you can walk there, there's no need of transport.

[@PtolemyJones]

I will never understand how the Brits can't speak English. How is Holborn pronounced Hobon? Silent L silent R? makes no sense.

[@acciid]

If you think that, then you haven't thought it through enough.