Marvel's Civil War II - Atop the Fourth Wall

[@foxfireinferno197]

Carol: "I have good intentions. Tell him I'm not Satan." Cap: "Isn't there an expression, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions?" Carol: "F*ck you, Cap."

[@questworldiangreenknight7455]

😂😂😂😂😂

[@louisduarte8763]

Mephisto: If you want to get technical, I'm not Satan either.

[@jsb6975.ah.crapbaskets]

Peter: You may as well be. Mephisto: Oh cry me a river. You're the one that chose a dying old woman over your marriage. Little known fact: The road to Hell is also paved by stupid decisions. *Hint. Hint.*

[@questworldiangreenknight7455]

@@jsb6975.ah.crapbaskets Doctor Strange: Yeah Peter, you should have said “I’VE COME TO BARGAIN!” If you wanted results.

[@plantainsame2049]

They kidnapped a random woman because some weirdo said that he saw where there's no evidence of his vision being right so you can just believe he made that s*** and Tony Stark kidnapped a random person as well All satan did was take Spider-Man's marriage

[@electric926]

You know one thing I think I would do here to make Tony's argument work better? Instead of just killing War Machine, have him stop Thanos with a heroic sacrifice, then later reveal that the Inhumans told Rhodey that their vision was of him stopping Thanos and he chooses to sacrifice himself. THAT would make for some good drama and storytelling ideas.

[@electric926]

Like seriously it doesn't solve every problem with Tony's utterly bonkers position here but it does a LOT to justify his actions and gives him a logical reason to blame them for Rhodey's death, especially when he finds out the predictions aren't 100% accurate.

[@jessicapatton6523]

Plus in this scenario Tony would have the argument that they can't be sure that there wasn't a possible future where they won the battle without any casualties if they'd just held out a little longer and that by telling Rhodey about the vision they just created a self fulfilling prophecy.

[@mistertea603]

You know how he *could* have responded to 'I thought you were a futurist?' 'I am...I spend every day locked in a cold room emailing engineers about the latest trends in technology. Betting and hedging what people could need next...but do you know what the hardest part of that equation is? People, they are the unknown variable that makes my life complicated. In futurism, I am betting on technology...in this- we are betting *against* people. I can fix a classic car in an afternoon but people take months and years to begin to want to change.'

[@mistertea603]

Or something like that,

[@mistertea603]

Oh my! Uh, cheers man! I Love your stuff!

[@TheMamaluigi300]

“I bet my profits. This is betting *people’s lives.”*

[@mistertea603]

@@TheMamaluigi300 EXACTLY!

[@axolotlfairy2473]

Hearing about the actual old man Logan story was BAFFLING when the Logan film was so subdued and….yknow….GOOD

[@skibot9974]

Apperently Frank Miller tried getting involved in production and gave suggestions on how they could faithfully adapt the story even accounting for the fact Fox could only use Mutants and the Fantastic Four… he was completly ignored thankfully

[@lkotro21]

You know... I distinctly recall Reed Richards saying that he "figured out the way to predict the future using math" during the FIRST Civil War.

[@Nortarachanges]

I find it’s easier to pretend anything Reed does in an event didn’t happen until forced to accept otherwise. There hasn’t been a single thing that meshes with his F4 characterization I’ve ever seen

[@PosthumanHeresy]

Tbh _that_ is actually 100% possible irl. It's just that in real life, we'd need a super duper mega ultra supercomputer. If you can do the math on enough variables, you can predict the future. It's just that you need to be able to identify tens of thousands of variables and correctly weigh them and math it all out.

[@johnballard7775]

@@PosthumanHeresy we’ll probably have that before we even finish exploring the entire ocean lmao

[@moonbeamsun9066]

Civil War: Hey want to see me ruin the personalities of multiple beloved marvel characters? Civil War 2: Want to see me do it again?

[@daviddyster4145]

This is probably why the 2010’s were a dark time for the Marvel universe.

[@DrakeyC]

Additional notes on the character drama that made the premise work in the MCU. In The Winter Soldier, Steve found out Hydra had survived WWII, reorganized, and infiltrated the military and government to such an extent that they had senators working for them and took control of SHIELD. He's also worked with SHIELD for an extended period of time and knows they get up to some shady stuff. Steve has plenty of reason to be unwilling to authorize government oversight over the Avengers, he's seen firsthand that the people who may hold that power over the Avengers cannot be trusted, and even if they're not villains they may not see eye to eye with him ideologically and give him missions he's not comfortable with. On the other hand, a major recurring theme in Tony's movies was him being irresponsible with his technology and trying to take steps to BE more responsible. He feels he has to protect the world and out of fear and desperation he created Ultron, the very kind of genocidal monster that Tony was afraid would come. Not to mention the drunken brawl with Rhodey in Iron Man 2, Jarvis being compromised, and the Mandarin blowing up his house when Tony called him out. So Tony admits to himself that HE can't be trusted, he needs and wants someone to rein him in in case he does something stupid again and another supervillain nearly kills him or worse, someone else. That IS what made the film so great, that you understood why Tony felt oversight was needed and why Steve was unwilling to accept it, it felt like the culmination of their arcs up to that point.

[@Logan912]

This is exactly why I prefer the conflict in the film version. Plus, the previous Avengers movies had set up somewhat of a clashing of ideals between Tony and Steve, but, until Civil War and Sokovia Accords, things hadn’t quite gotten to the point of a fallout between the two even though they bickered here and there. But then, there’s the argument that Zemo’s plan was unnecessarily complicated, but here’s the thing: Zemo was *not* relying on the Sokovia Accords. All Zemo was trying to do was at least get Tony to a place where he can be shown the tape of Winter Soldier killing his parents because he knew that’s all it would take to create a rift within the Avengers. Otherwise, Zemo was going through the motions and taking advantage of the situation around him in order to manipulate the heroes. In fact, it wasn’t even originally his plan to kill T’Chaka, but that was the next best thing after the HYDRA soldier he kidnapped refused to cooperate.

[@brandonlyon730]

Yeah in the Marvel’s comic universe how many times before Civil war have Villains or evil organizations like Hydra, had sleeper agents or had secret control over the government before? Even the red skull at one point. With the registration act, they would now have all the heroes private information they can easily exploit or sell off to other villains. How would Tony guarantee that won’t happen, and considering dark reign and Norman Osborn he failed in that department.

[@FormalFilmsProductions]

Well said

[@dingle2987]

Agreed. Mark Millar has great ideas but always adds weird execution. Even Old Man Logan has hillbilly hulk children.

[@EmperorSeth]

You nicely covered the reasons why Civil War isn't my FAVORITE movie in the MCU, but it's arguably the best move in the MCU. The motivations for all involved, especially Tony and Steve, work so well at both the personal and ethical levels. Incidentally, I also noticed that technically, Tony and Stevel's best friends both have the same first name. There's no place it could have been used in the movie, but it would have been funny, given the context of the OTHER big comic book movie released that year, if they noticed that, commented on what a weird coincidence that was, and then went back to fighting.

[@ultra6671]

There's honestly a pretty easy way to make the conflict work: Have Tony see Carol's plan to use Ulysses' visions as another version of the Superhuman Registration Act and, realizing how much he screwed up siding with the government during the first Civil War, decides to oppose Carol in order to stop her from making the same mistakes he made.

[@mirdordinii5783]

One thing that really annoys me that you didn't touch on was in the first issue, before the party, both Carol and Tony talk about getting drinks. The two characters who prominently dealt with alcoholism, just casually talking about getting drinks.

[@IronSheepEngine]

Then again, alcohol might've explained their stupid decisions throughout the event... Perhaps it's a drinking PSA in disguise.

[@morganyoung3557]

Wow, that is really bad take on the author’s part. Even though it is hilarious, I respect the fact that Linkara refuses to do the Drunk Tony voice for any story after Demon in a Bottle because he feels it would be in poor taste to mock a recovering alcoholic.

[@mikegates8993]

From what I've heard, Tony was actually Carol's sponsor when she entered AA. If that's true it makes that scene even worse.

[@johnathonhaney8291]

@@mikegates8993 Correct, which came out of the Kurt Busiek run on Iron Man...you know, one of the few writers who understands characters like this without performing character assassinations. I hype his book Astro City all the time for a reason.

[@skibot9974]

@@mikegates8993 also apprently in one of the tie-ins Carol calls out Magneto for invoking Godwin’s law (comparing people to Hitler). Magneto… the HOLOCAUST SURVIVOR

[@det.bullock4461]

The "act of kindness" thing reminds of the Jessica Jones "what if" in which she accepts the offer to join the Avengers after her first ordeal with Purple Man, she manages to prevent all the mess with Avengers Disassembled just by being the only one to notice something odd was happening with Scarlet Witch and getting her some therapy.

[@juannunez1929]

12:01 This is actually extra dumb because when Carol Danvers herself started as Ms. Marvel in the 1970's, she used to have the ability to see the future. They called "7th Sense." It was actually way more accurate than Spider-Man's Spidersense. She could see in detail disasters hours before they happened. Look up the Ms. Marvel issue when Carol first met Vision.

[@LupineShadowOmega]

Yep, also an ability of hers that Rogue used to have. And also an ability that Gambit sort of had a copy of during Xtreme X-Men while he was blind.

[@FNGLHR]

Some one seriously needs to request more Carol Danvers comics for Lewis to review.

[@ItsTheFizz]

Not to mention one of Carol's earliest villains from her Ms. Marvel days was Mystique... You know, the one married to Destiny? The most powerful precognitive in the Marvel Universe?

[@AussieDragoon]

@@ItsTheFizz At least Destiny was dead when this comic came out.

[@johnnygyro2295]

In hindsight, I'm surprised Bendis didn't use that as a plot point. Carol herself having precognition would've been more interesting than the walking plot device known as Ulysses. Also, is it wrong that finding out Carol and Rhodey were dating was the most interesting part of this event?

[@JohnnyElRed]

You know, is very unfortunate that with all of this happening so near to the begining of Secret Empire, none of those vison were about Captain America wearing a Hydra uniform.

[@Logan912]

“Why didn’t you tell us about Cap?!” “I don’t know. Didn’t think it was important at the time.”

[@FNGLHR]

@@Logan912 I mean technically he DID tell them. It's just the vision with Miles was missing some very important context that no one bothered to look into. Because everyone just implictly trusts Captain America.

[@fanusobscurus]

@@FNGLHR If I'm remembering correctly, they actually DO have the details of what was going on in the vision, but everyone in universe was so focused on Miles holding a dead cap, while only Cap took in the big picture.

[@ToaArcan]

That's a damn good point. So much of this event hinges on Stevil, and yet Ulysses never clocks that Cap's currently a bad guy with his visions.

[@fanusobscurus]

@@ToaArcan Well... technically speaking? Stevil isn't really a bad guy yet. The thing That always irks me about Secret Empire is that it shows that Stevil didn't start out evil. The Cosmic Cube created an entire reality where HYDRA was indeed the good guys out to make the world a better place like Red Skull tricked her into believing. Notice how most of the worst things done under his reign were when he washed his hands of something and put a main line HYDRA member in charge? Thats how he was able to play the part for so long. He was the same person, with a different wold view, not different morals. That was Red Skull's biggest mistake in creating Stevil. It wasn't until the end of the even where Stevil was pretty much a broken man (and also bad writing) where he became a card carrying villain. Honestly, he kinda reminds me of Superboy Prime in a way...

[@MovieMan1710]

Jean: "You should see what She-Hulk thinks about." She-Hulk: "This is why we don't invite you to brunch anymore Jean."

[@Marveryn]

remember this is the same jean that one time just blare out to a person that they are gay even after years of dating women. So A, he just never consider the prospect or B she implanted the thought. We can all agreed that some of marvel writers and editors need better schooling on how to make a story work. More important jeans need to learn to let everyone knows that she has no quelm about reading people mind cause they happen to be in the same room.

[@LupineShadowOmega]

@@Marveryn It was also that version of Jean who was just a massive asshole. Like Emma who would do that, just be less of an ass about it, called her on it and pointed out that the "real" Jean would be pissed at her.

[@dingle2987]

@@Marveryn Old Jean was more thoughtful.

[@carlcarlson3396]

@@Marveryn I'm just bringing this because no one else will 25:49 coming from the guy who likes Carol Danvers

[@eamonndeane587]

@@Marveryn God I hate Brian Michael Bendis' All New X Men book.

[@ayaanshah2417]

Carol: we have to confront Bruce before he can Hulk out. Stark: Carol, the last time I tried to regulate the Hulk he came back with an army and made me and Reed Richards beat each other to a pulp. Maybe we should think about this for a minute.

[@Predator20357]

But apparently, arrows could easily solve everything. Seriously, is that a trope I’m not aware of? “Arrows are better than everything?” Trope where someone with a arrow solves problems that is way out of their league? Like when Hawkeye defeated Thanos by firing arrows at where he will end up?

[@jt808ful]

@@Predator20357 banner designed the thing personally and I guess it was made of something that could keep him down if shot while he was banner.

[@AussieDragoon]

@@Predator20357 I mean Hawkeye did save both the DC and Marvel earth's simultaneously in JLA/Avengers with an arrow, so you might be onto something.

[@Predator20357]

@@jt808ful It’s still a arrow my dude, Arrows are apparently the best way to solve everything which means that Bruce realizes that Arrows are the most OP things in comics and made it that way

[@Predator20357]

@@AussieDragoon Arrows solve everything

[@ZiggyKFS]

Something i realized about the Civil War events is that the heroes are blamed for tbe disasters when the VILLAINS are liable for it. For example, the heroes (especially Speedball) are demonized by people for playing a role for what happened in Stanford, when it was Nitro who caused it. In fact, only Wolverine makes it his mission to hunt Nitro down while the other heroes take part in a pointless debate against each other. People stupidly shame the heroes while the villain walks away from it without blame Also, in Civil War II, Tony blames Carol for James Rhodes death when it was Thanos who killed him. I was surprised that Tony didn't hate Thanos for it or tried to kill Thanos for it.

[@OverlyPositiveFanboy]

Y'know, Tony's motivations would be much better if they tied it back to the "we shot Hulk into space" thing. That was Tony taking steps to prevent future disasters, and look what it resulted in...

[@zak22wolftheultramanzenith35]

That would make sense and make things make sense. Too good an idea for this story.

[@jackwells8107]

This would have been an even better story if someone had said, "Hey, Tony - remember the time Kang the Conqueror killed you and replaced you with a teenage version of youself? Sure glad he's only a possible future and not something that definitely happened, huh?"

[@WaitWhat-zw2in]

And secret invasion to kinda

[@RhyperiorRanger]

The title Disney originally wanted to go with was, “Captain America Civil War/ Avengers 2.5 Final Mix featuring Dante from Devil May Cry”

[@monstercombo007]

& Knuckles with New Funky Mode

[@jayarby8494]

Avengers II.8 Final Chapter Prologue

[@jayarby8494]

Followed by Avengers: 1847/11 Days I swear that title makes sense in both original and parody context

[@alexanderthomsen4593]

And a later release featuring Vergil from the Special Edition series

[@Brilliams]

Then the Civil war 3 comic starts with opening prologue and then blank page in black with text "Civil war....2.9"

[@johnathonhaney8291]

39:39 Fun fact: Tony actually had a machine that worked like Ulysses when he was heading up Forceworks: a computer that ran on chaos logic or some such. In other words, AN ALGORITHM.

[@o76923]

Even better, they successfully adapted it into multiple storylines with moral dilemmas that divided the team in the first couple seasons of the Avengers Assemble cartoon. So they definitely have people on staff who know how to tell this story with these characters but they just gave it to someone else instead and they screwed the pooch.

[@TheVegeta67]

It's almost like the person who wrote this doesn't know continuity or something.

[@viraltang]

@@TheVegeta67 Continuity has little to do with it the writing is just plain bad with no thought put into it at all.

[@TheVegeta67]

@@viraltang it’s Bendis. Even his own fans admit that unless he’s read it. He’s not mentioning it.

[@Cdr2002]

“Proactive superheroes” should only exist in the capacity of tracking down supervillains or other criminals that remain at large (and can be detained without the red tape that protects your Kingpins and Dooms) Otherwise, reacting to disasters is THEIR JOB. Fire departments can’t put out fires that haven’t started burning yet.

[@aros0018]

I didn't really keep reading Dan Abnett's Titans run after the team roster got changed up but I do remember liking how they described how their team would be proactive; basically going out and finding the new meta-humans that've been created after the events of Justice League: No Justice and help them out. Give them some guidance and stability and keep them from ever becoming a problem in the first place. Now that's a proactive superhero idea I can get behind. Getting people the help they need now so that they don't become villains or get taken advantage of later.

[@avremirine8986]

Honestly Squadron Supreme did the whole Proactive Superhero thing alot better than Youngblood or any other comic.

[@mikegates8993]

You can also justify the idea if they're making efforts to help crime heavy areas to lower their crime rate or help prepare high risk areas for potential disasters like hurricanes.

[@Tiggeralt]

It's been a while since I read Ultimates, but as I recall the only "proactive" thing I remember them doing is "prevent Galactus from eating more planets."

[@Cdr2002]

A very good point I didn’t think of

[@BenMarcWilliams]

When Tony is talking about the hypothetical of Hulk and Ultron giving birth to Hitler as though that's a ridiculous impossibility, I feel like he's forgetting about the events of Avengers #200. I don't blame him for _wanting_ to forget, I just want to know _how_ he managed to forget, especially since Carol is _right there._ Because I've been trying to forget Avengers #200 for years, and if Tony has figured out how, I wanna know.

[@mikegates8993]

Well he did erase some of his memories after Secret Invasion. Maybe he decided to take the opportunity to scrub that dumpster fire from his mind while he was at it.

[@Zenn_Chan]

massive amounts of alcohol would probably do the trick

[@BlackVeilSavior]

What’s wonderfully funny is my wife got me *one* singular copy of an avengers comic from a bookstore randomly, without knowing anything about it all… and it was Avengers 200. I read a few pages and thought “…oh yeah, this incest father paradox story…”

[@zakfett92]

Why do you think he drank so much?

[@AussieDragoon]

Massive Head trauma

[@DinoDave150]

Marvel: Hey! You know that big event where we contrived a reason for all your favorite heroes to fight each other and we committed complete character assassination that made you hate everyone involved in the conflict? Us: Yeah? Marvel: Well here it is again!!!

[@LupineShadowOmega]

I was definitely about to ask "Which one?" XD

[@dingle2987]

It actually has it’s fans. I know tons of people who thought it was great because they like mindless entertainment.

[@DinoDave150]

@@LupineShadowOmega Both Civil Wars, World War Hulk, Avengers vs. X-Men, Inhumans vs. X-Men, etc. Marvel, you do know that you can have crossover events that DON'T just have heroes fighting each other right? In fact, how is it that the only big Marvel event in recent history, Secret Invasion, was the only one that could have justified heroes fighting amongst themselves since they're dealing with a race of shapeshifters, and they didn't take advantage of that at all?

[@shis1988]

@@LupineShadowOmega yes

[@justinpullen1097]

You think they would have learned from the mistakes of the first Civil War and craft a better sequel...Nope.

[@dahakaguardianofthetimelin4780]

I remember loving the build-up to this comic and some spin-off issues. She-Hulk facing the reality of her client, a man who once did a crime but was genuinely trying to turn a new leaf having his life ruined because of government overreach and being entraped by law enforcement into ending his own life, unable to cope with the entire affair. It set her up perfectly to oppose government overreach and made the case for Tony's side perfectly... Only for She-Hulk to join Carol's side and argue FOR government overreach and full Minority Report mode being engaged because "Yay, girl power". I liked some ideas of this story, but I'd have liked them to be handled and executed by someone above 8th grader's level of story planning and creative writing.

[@devlinburgess2463]

Yeah, I have no idea why Jen, a lawyer who takes law pretty seriously, would be on Carols side other than the fact that they were on A-Force together.

[@marvelprince]

I was expecting it to be revealed that Carol misunderstood what Jen was saying while in the coma but no for some reason the one person who should stress due process and making the punishment fit the crime immediately signs up to take out people before they commit any offenses

[@jordancampbell8597]

@@devlinburgess2463 Jen was pro-Registration in the first Civil War, so I'm not surprised in the least.

[@repulser93]

That does seem like a reoccurring problem with Bendis’s more negatively received work.

[@wvang0013]

Bendis doesn't care about continuity and does his own thing.

[@ThatHybridGuy]

Y’know what would have fixed the scene with Bruce Banner? Have Tony see Bruce alone. He just wants to talk. No Hulk, no armour, just a friend checking in on a friend. He discovers Bruce’s research (he showed up unannounced, it’s likely he’d have interrupted *something*), is disappointed that he’s working with Gamma again but is understanding when told it’s worked so far at stopping any Hulk-outs. Tony chooses not to tell Bruce about the vision, not wanting to stress him out over the potential failure of his work. He offers his assistance and resources with the caveat that they work in one of Stark’s labs under his supervision. Banner reluctantly agrees and they head out to the Quinjet… To find Captain Marvel has rallied every hero she could get in contact with. She’s convinced the hulk-out is inevitable and thinks Tony was an idiot for facing Banner without backup, pointing out Stark’s propensity for saying the wrong thing at the wrong time. Bruce accuses Tony of setting him up, Tony frantically defends himself, adamant that he had no idea this was coming. He starts arguing with Carol about what a terrible idea this was and things get uncomfortable as they seem to forget about everyone else as the Rhodey situation boils over (“These visions have already cost me one friend! I refuse to lose another to them!” “We stand to lose *much* more if we just let these events continue knowing we can stop them!” - like, let both arguments breathe in this scene, have them both have relevant points). They’re only interrupted when Bruce, reaching his breaking point, snaps at them both to shut up. Everyone freezes up. That’s only natural when Bruce Banner raises his voice. He starts to let loose about how well he’s been doing without their interference, and how they’re undoing so much work just by being there. As he reaches the apex of his rant, an arrow comes out of nowhere and puts him down, not even letting him finish his sentence. And Clint comes out of hiding, offering himself up for arrest.

[@the.dandy.man2]

well you put more effort into this than the writers who were trying to tie into real world events

[@Dreadjaws]

That would have required the writer to use more than one brain cell at the same time. Can't do that when you have so many other books to ruin.

[@TeryJones]

And hell maybe instead of kidnapping Ulysses he just pops over the Inhumans' place and asks to evaluate his powers there on the spot. But because the Inhuman are, well, the Inhumans, they feel Tony is not worthy and is too primitive to understand anything beyond his human understanding of science and then we get the kidnapping scene, except not really because he actually convinces Ulysses to come willingly (albeit behind the Inhumans' back) and there is no tying up to chairs involved. But Carol being Carol just assumes Tony is going too far leading to the misunderstanding. Shit should we all just start making our own script for this? I think we might have something here XDXDXDXDXDXDXD

[@BullseyeRey]

Though Banner wasn't having any Hulk outs already because Amadeus had absorbed Banner's Gamma power.

[@ThatHybridGuy]

@@BullseyeRey I guess that’s the part Linkara was talking about when he said CW2 directly contradicted the events of the Hulk series. I was only going by the context given in the video

[@crossoverfan12]

There’s a reason Squirrel Girl wasn’t in this She has a brain and can solve problems with logic, reason, and emotional maturity

[@grantmoore8228]

SOMEONE had to save a bunch of dinosaurs from a T-Rex version of Ultron!

[@crossoverfan12]

@@grantmoore8228 is THAT what she when this event happened

[@grantmoore8228]

@@crossoverfan12 well, technically it was during the events of Secret Empire but yeah. She told Spider-Man via Twitter that she has to save some dinosaurs in the savage land and that she was too preoccupied to help. When he said that there could be some hero-on-hero fights, she responded by saying "Can I ASSUME this little dustup is safe in your hands?" and "Can I furthermore assume that at the end of this conflict, things will be back to normal with maybe some changes but nothing too big???" (Which ended up happening with both events)

[@crossoverfan12]

@@grantmoore8228 oh ya I remember that. Some times I skimmed the Twitter page because it was just a recap musta happened with that one. Hey while I have you has Oaktron appeared in anything outside of Squirrel Girl

[@raphaelrodgers7407]

She’s literally the worst character and you decide to say some dumb shit like that?

[@Nexuish]

You want to know what’s crazy? The better set up for the conflict is IN the story: move the shared vision to earlier when they first try to decipher Ulysses’ power via psychic link. Everyone starts with the same information BUT their individual perspectives and biases make them interpret the same info in different ways.

[@guillermopena8412]

I like this. Something along the lines of them all seeing Hulk surrounded by both human and alien dead bodies, some interpreting this as Hulk losing control while others think maybe Hulk was fighting an alien invasion. You have a side thinking Hulk is a danger to be dealt with and thus that future must be stopped, while others think he is their best allie, thus letting that future happen is their best chance.

[@TheMaestroMizerous]

Heroes in Crisis?

[@viraltang]

Kinda like a psychic game of telephone? I like that hell you could just remove Ulysses entirely. By a freak happen stance various psychically inclined heros all belonging to various teams or knowing other heros get incredibly powerful visions of coming threats both big and small scale but no two are exactly the same in the details even if the results would be the same and everyone starts bunting heads about how to stop them and it comes to a breaking point.

[@SCWRMComms]

44:04: the tie-ins apparently mention that Medusa and the inhumans bankrupted Tony, publicly shamed him and bombed the Stark tower out of retaliation for the kidnapping (if i have to guess that's why the meeting place is a mess). What's weird to me is that they didn't even bothered to put the asterisk with the "see in issue x, y and z of comic line a, b or c" caption, it really feels like that line is coming out of nowhere. -Teo

[@galilea723]

Haven't read the tie in bus sounds kinda justified? (Well not the bomb)

[@TheGrayMysterious]

The saddest part of Bruce's fate in this is how Immortal Hulk underlines that he does not trust or respect any of the other heroes anymore, and likely never will, because they're almost giddy to show him that they will never do the same in kind. Time and again they've mistreated and mistrusted him, and no matter how many times the consequences bite them in the ass or how many times they admit they were wrong, they keep doing it. Because they fear the Hulk more than they love Banner. That one Hulk persona that was assisting HYDRA in Secret Empire exists, in Devil Hulk's words, because Bruce had hit rock bottom after this and no longer gave a damn about life or other people, so the Hulk didn't either.

[@santiviera]

Man, that gave me the chills reading this. I really should buy The Immortal Hulk, even more so if Linkara is right, and it indeed goes back to the roots of Horror that the Hulk was originally based on.

[@BusoRockin1000]

If Hulk didn't have a body count in the 10s of thousands maybe I feel sorry for him, but despite saying he just wants to be left alone he often murders hundreds of people at a time.

[@TheGrayMysterious]

@@BusoRockin1000 It's canonical that the Hulk has never killed any innocent people in his rampages, except maybe that one in Las Vegas that was the impetus for him being shot into space, but even that's dubious since the comic showing that incident never depicted any loss of life. Hulk only began deliberately killing other people when the Devil Hulk took over after he was definitively resurrected in Avengers: No Surrender.

[@BusoRockin1000]

@@TheGrayMysterious That sounds like the mother of all retcons.

[@TheGrayMysterious]

@@BusoRockin1000 I don't think any Hulk comic has ever actually shown him killing innocent people. If he kills someone, it's always a villain or a bigger threat. The official explanation is that Banner is subconsciously restraining Hulk at all times to ensure he doesn't completely lose it and start attacking everything indiscriminately, and it's shown that when Banner's mind is shut down inside their shared body, Hulk goes completely mindless and ballistic.

[@SuprousOxide]

"The mission you sent him on cost him his life". Yeah, that happens to soldiers. You can mourn their deaths, but you have to expect that even with successful missions any individual soldier may die.

[@Predator20357]

Yah, Tony is acting like Carol and Ulysses intentionally sacrificed his friend and not that he died fighting Thanos who was doing something evil. You know how you fix this? Make it where Thanos or some other Super Villain was doing jack shit or being peaceful and Carol was intentionally started a fight with the person and caused things to escalate super quickly and it caused his death because Carol was taking every chance to escalate.

[@VooshSpokesman]

@@Predator20357 Thatd be a funny and telling image, a known supervillian just doing their day to day shopping and suddenly their punched in the face by Cpt Marvel

[@stevencates2069]

Shouldn't captain marvel understand that...being a soilder and all?

[@Predator20357]

@@VooshSpokesman I mean how else will you make it seem like Tony was in the right and not being a Douche and basically saying “Thanos should’ve been allowed to do what he did!”

[@Predator20357]

@@mikeclarke5732 Tbf that seems to be less about him intentionally withholding information and more about him focusing on what seems to be more important which is Cap being killed. I am referring more to him seeing Captain America and Miles Morale talking to each other and him saying “Captain America is being killed”

[@Batsage]

Ewing's Ultimates was one of the few times "proactive super heroes!!!" actually worked for me, because it was neither just Doing The Same Sit or Being Super Edgy; they went out to find solutions for long-running problems and found creative ways to deal with them. One the most frustrating things about Civil War II was that Carol's team could resolve something like FUCKING GALACTUS in a kind and peaceful way, but suddenly the only answer to Ulysses's visions was jumping straight to accusing and arresting people.

[@tomhur1]

What's nice is that "The Ultimates" tie in issues basically saved Civil War 2 for me and made the whole event more enjoyable. Sure wish it was in the actual main event though.

[@SchazmenRassir]

Carol: "Depends" Iron Asshole: "On what?" ...gee, I don't know. Motives. Methods. Timescale. Preparation. Involved parties. Possible victims. Morality. Ethics. Inclusion of technology, magic, mutants, mutates and/or Inhumans. Legality. Nationality. Religion. Ages of the parties involved. Mental health of the perpetrator. Mental stability of the perpetrator. Is the perpetrator being controlled, mentally or physically? Is the perpetrator aware of their actions? Is the perpetrator an impostor? Are they working alone, or in a team? Are the working on their own or for someone? I love Tony Stark in the MCU. I have never gotten a reason to like him in 616 since Civil War. That said, I've also not have reason to like Carol Danvers for a while either, though granted, I don't actively follow the comics, so if anyone wants to show me she's a better person than this event shows, feel free.

[@JohnnyElRed]

Let's talk also how Brian Michael Bendis keeps trying to make "Hawkeye killing" a thing. Even though the guy used to have a "no killing" code as strict as Batman's.

[@dahakaguardianofthetimelin4780]

He just needs Hawkeye to be a psychopath so that his adopted daughter has something to read about. Cut the guy some slack, will ya?

[@fjardim14]

I remember Hawkeye dumping his beloved wife Harpy because she had once killed someone, mostly in self-defense. But hey, bow guy must be a killer or he's not cool, I guess!

[@ForrestFox626]

Bendis. Twisting continuity like his own personal playground to fit his needs.

[@gregorymelissinos337]

@@fjardim14 His wife was named Mockingbird and it wasn't just self-defense. His wife was raped by villain named phantom cowboy. Said villain fell of a cliff and Mockingbird had the opportunity to save him but didn't.

[@BullseyeRey]

@@fjardim14 You mean Mockingbird. Harpy is Hulk's wife.

[@davidspring4003]

I think what they were trying to do was a Minority Report-esque thing. "How ethical is it to arrest someone for a crime they haven't yet committed?" If they had kept everyone in character and then had the rift be the vision of Hulk killing everyone, with Carol trying to prevent it by any means necessary and Tony trying to argue that the attempt to prevent it might be what causes it, that could have potentially been really cool!

[@davidspring4003]

@@alexandredesbiens-brassard9109 agreed

[@MusicFan752]

I honestly hate that kind of self fulfilling prophecy writing where it's like "ZOMG are stupid actions to stop the future problem actually caused the future problem to happen in the first place!" It's why I hated Danny phantom ultimate enemy since it had a similar problem and I know this kind of writing has been common since ancient times such as during Norse mythology with Odin seeing Ragnarok, but my god I hate how that kind of writing is.

[@SuperEasywalker]

You know this kind of paradox happen a lot in THAT’S SO RAVEN.

[@jake51479]

yeah linkara says that in the video

[@davidspring4003]

@@jake51479 I posted before he brought it up. Kept it up for my idea on how to improve it.

[@JohnnyElRed]

I think that when saying "after what big hair did to me and my life", Tony means how the Inhumans took down Stark Tower, and his whole business with it. You know. More stuff from tie-ins that wasn't explained on the main series.

[@krspaceT1]

Yep.

[@bthsr7113]

So Tony lost his business AGAIN!? That's what, 3 times now!? Geez writers, get some new ideas!

[@krspaceT1]

@@bthsr7113 Spiderman keeps getting shunted to a crappy apartment, the Mutants keep nearly going extinct, it never ends.

[@ArcCaravan]

Probably should have included that in the main series. Or recapped it in the main series. Would explain a lot.

[@crapshot321]

@@Japaneseanimeguy But then how can you get the suckers--er customers to buy tie in comics if you don't have a carrot to dangle in front of them? /s

[@vigilantsycamore8750]

There is A LOT that would have to be changed to make this good, but one good change to start with might be this: have one of the first visions Ulysses has, shortly after he starts working with the heroes, be *of* the civil war that the event is about. Have the heroes try to figure out how it happens and whether they can prevent it or not. Have the conflict start because they disagree on what to do about the vision. Make it either be a self-fulfilling prophecy, or just look like one

[@dingle2987]

I find it odd that there is an Old Man Logan Future in the visions. Yet Old Man Logan joined 616 along with Miles Morales and was even in some panels. So would that make it Older Man Logan?

[@AussieDragoon]

At least it would explain why Logan suddenly started aging like a ton of bricks in OML where he suddenly started aging at the same rate as Hawkeye. If he's old from the start it's at least something.

[@changvasejarik62]

I just find it weird that old man Logan joined 616 earth and yet we were denied the opportunity to have hank pym and vision meet old man ultron 8.

[@charleshockenbury353]

It’s probably because of the black suit, but Viga’s Tony Stark looks like the beatnik from The Iron Giant, and I love that “Tony, what’s with this Iron Man Armor? It looks like garbage” Tony, “ITS ART!!!”

[@repulser93]

“…Built in a cave! With a box of scraps!”

[@SilverHairedFreak25]

Glad I wasn't the only one who thought of Dean.

[@trevingrayek8292]

I thought it was an intentional reference

[@101Draico]

This has such an easy fix. Have Ullisies be the villain. Just have it that he purposely alters the future to his benefit, hence why any other psychic and precognitive being is unable to see the future, since no one can access his mind and everything. Have the heroes split since neither don’t know how it works, later find out when they frame Spider-Man for murder since that’s out of character for miles and Peter, like change it that Spider-Man was going to kill cap the following day, the day comes and miles’ body moves out of control trying to kill cap. They quickly realised it was all set up and go after Ullisies, beat him and save the day etcetera etcetera. Probably could have been explained better but it’s better than this comic

[@myriadmediamusings]

Probably one of the worst things about Civil War 2 was that it was so lousy that some began to reconsider Civil War 1 to actually be good by comparison. Yeah. For my part while I didn't read CW2, the book I was reading at the time, Ms Marvel, had a tie in arc to it. In hindsight the arc wasn't too bad but it did split apart Kamala and Carol only a short time after the Last Days arc when they teamed up to tie into Secret Wars. Though speaking of Kamala, CW2 did give her one of my favorite moments: Upon realizing what Carol did, Kamala broke down only to be supported by Miles Morales and Sam Alexander as the two had a bonding moment. It was very heartwarming and really cemented how Kamala, Miles and Sam are really the iconic teen trio of Marvel, so much so that they had the most development during All New All Different Avengers, Champions, and had their own tie in in Heroes Reborn.

[@FNGLHR]

You're refering to the Avengers Tie-In where Tony accuses Carol of conspiring to have Banner killed all along correct? (Which I feel the need to remind is NOT true at all.) i mean that bonding moment was nice, but Carol still didn't kill Bruce Banner, Hawkeye did.

[@mediabaron2416]

Hey there's a positive to this event. The Champions spun out of it. And frankly, that team feels like a natural response to all the "hero vs hero" events.

[@dingle2987]

Lots of people consider Civil War 1 good because they just want “cool” battles. I’m not one of those people but I see them all the time.

[@BlueBomberGamerOficial]

but the first Civil War is good,it was grounded and bringed consequences to the Marvel Universe for years.....Civil War 2 was just a rushed comic event to tie in to the movies, that didnt have so much consequence,the deaths that happen were undone(even captain america stayed dead for longer than that),and the few consequences that had were diminished or hinder by subsequents events that had way more weight than this one, Civil War 1 was important,and Civil War 2 was pointless...

[@vfvfq1279]

At least CW2 live up to one of CW central theme: "Both sides are wrong, (Mostly Iron Man's side) and I hate them."

[@ryancarson6962]

43:44 Actually Linkara I believe that these specific lines by Tony are more in reference to how the Inhumans responded to Tony kidnapping Ulysses than the whole "Rhodey died thing". To give context the Inhumans stole his money, destroyed his cars and revealed his nude pics to the public. Then Maximus and Triton take it even farther by *bombing Stark Tower.* Now I know Tony certainly did wrong by kidnapping Ulysses but their response to it is just not okay. What Tony did was out of line but they responded by *destroying his life.* Its incidents like this that really give context to just why the Inhumans push by Marvel failed so miserably, the Inhumans aren't straight heroes like the X-Men, Marvel trying to pedal them as such even when they commit petty and messed up deeds like these only turned people off. The problem is really exemplified in how in the Inhumans series, you're more likely to be rooting for Maximus since his more sympathetic characterization is infinitely more likable than the rest of the royal family.

[@scarletnight4554]

I'm guessing what the inhumans, happened in tie-ins which further shows the problems with this event

[@bthsr7113]

Bombing Stark Tower. That is literally terrorist behavior.

[@cdnxman1326]

I don't know why, but I swear I remember Tony actually asking to do some tests, with Ulysses, but medusa denying him, and, I think also insulting him?

[@Talyrion]

I'll be completely honest, with zero context aside from this video, the Inhuman's answer seems more confusing than outrageous. Heck, one'd argue that bombings in retaliation for kidnapping isn't that far-fetched if you treat this as a diplomatic crisis. But the whole thing about nude pics and destroying cars seems weirdly childish.

[@GeneralKenobi75]

Honestly, as much as I dislike the Inhumans(mainly due to the events of the Death of X) but after what Tony did, he deserved it. About time he got some real karma.

[@AJ-The-Bumblebee]

"Sounds like we're fighting the weather" Not a great phrase to sound hopeless when there are heroes in villains in your universe that can control the weather.

[@JaelinBezel]

Like Storm! ⛈

[@krystlvines]

And have Thor around

[@tannerprice2018]

Something I didn’t notice until rewatching both the Armageddon 2001 and Secret Invasion episodes were that the AT4W title card songs were based off the Justice League and Avengers: Earths Mightiest Heroes theme songs. And now this one’s based on the MCU Avengers theme. Nice touch.

[@undead923]

Imagine if Dark Nights: Metal starts with the JLU theme

[@leomoreno7369]

@@undead923 It did! You win.

[@cheezemonkeyeater]

"Hulk and Ultron made out. . . And the baby was reincarnated Hitler." Now I know what kind of fanficiton Tony writes. So, thanks for that, Marvel. "That could be a reincarnated Charlie Chaplin." Hitler ruined that mustache for future generations. It was easily the biggest crime he committed in life. "We just talk to them and a simple act of kindness prevents the thing." Oh, my god, thank you! Nobody EVER thinks of that possibility. I really think we tend to devalue the impact a single act of kindness can have on people. And if you think that's silly, just look at the impact of Fred Rogers on the lives of just about everyone who knew him.

[@sophisticautistic5453]

Captain Marvel: THANOS IS DOING SOMETHING BAD! WE HAVE TO STOP HIM! Tony: Sure we do. I also heard that Steve Rogers will be patriotic and fight for his country! Captain America: *sweats nervously*

[@FNGLHR]

Everyone seemed to forget Stevil was a thing, even as it was happening just as this event started.

[@BaronSengir1008]

Superman: Should we do something?

[@BATCHARRO]

@@BaronSengir1008 We should do something!

[@noewil8392]

*sweats in Stevil* 🤣

[@sophisticautistic5453]

@@BaronSengir1008 Nah! It's over there and over there needs to deal with their own problems.

[@solumanblevins5906]

I'm sorry but why are people treating the Hulk like he's some monstrous entity that needs to be put down? Both Planet Hulk and WWH proved that he has a personality and feelings apart from Bruce, hell Bruce AGREED with Hulk and helped! Why are they acting like he's a non-individual in all this?

[@luxshine]

Not to mention the time when Hulk WAS just a part of Banner but they were integrated (Professor Hulk era, how much I miss you). They always zigzag on Bruce's relationship with his greener half and I hate that so much.

[@sarafontanini7051]

apparently brian michael bendis didn't bother looking at all that and only knows the basic status quo of hulk (hell, apaprently banner was cured of gamma radiation at this point which is why he didn't hulk out for ages)

[@luxshine]

@@sarafontanini7051 Yeah, in fact... I think that at that time it was Amadeus Cho the one who was running around as the Hulk. And I think at LEAST Tony knew of it because he had talked to Bruce about it in Hulk.

[@MalzraAirwynn]

There is such an obvious middle ground to this conflict. Study and consider his visions but don't blindly trust them as 100% fact. Use them for clear cut good things like stopping Thanos etc as you learn more and be more wary about areas that warrant more skepticism. At least the first civil war there was a pretty strict binary of 'support this law or defy it.'

[@mikegates8993]

Since that law was US only there is actually middle ground, and it's what Ben Grimm did. Leave the country.

[@c.p.browne6871]

@@mikegates8993 Yes, but they also punished him for doing that, by seizing his bank accounts and essentially canceling his American citizenship. And they brought the Sentry along to make sure he didn't fuss about it.

[@mikegates8993]

@@c.p.browne6871 I've actually never read anything related to Civil War, so I wasn't aware of that fact. Though I do think the point stands that it was an option, and probably still the best given that fighting means living as a fugitive and going with it means being subject to the whims of the writers handling Civil War's tie ins being able to do whatever they wanted with the law. Heck, I'm not 100% sure that them doing that would even be totally legal in a realistic setting.

[@c.p.browne6871]

@@mikegates8993 The issue was that there was no middle ground to be had. If you resisted, you were thrown into the prison Reed Richards built in the Negative Zone until you submitted. Once you submitted (and this went for anyone that registered) you could be conscripted at any time by the government to perform missions with no option to refuse - or else prison in the Negative Zone as above. Aside from 'quitting' like Firestar did and never using your powers again - up until they detected you 'concealing yourself', I suppose - then it was back to the original two choices. So, no, it wouldn't be legal, realistically speaking. You can't make *people* illegal, but it doesn't stop anyone from trying. qv. Japanese Internment, Indian Removal Act, Title 42, 'Temporary' Islamic Ban. etc...

[@mikegates8993]

@@c.p.browne6871 Which is why leaving the country would be the middle ground. Over reaching from what I assume is one of the notoriously inconsistant tie ins aside, the law was only in America. And Ben made a point of making sure everyone knew he left, what if someone helped covertly remove superhumans who didn't want to fight or underaged ones with their families? I'm pretty sure Cassie Lang was both at that point and she specifically wanted to stop fighting after a certain point.

[@moonbeamsun9066]

I found your channel a few days ago and really wanted you to cover Civil War II. Looks like my wish came true! Your channel is one of my favorites. Your commentary is awesome and your sense of humor is hysterical.

[@juliagoodwin9510]

So basically the whole impetus of the story was for nothing at all. To quote Yahtzee, *"THERE IS NO MIDDLE FINGER BIG ENOUGH."*

[@bluestar2059]

33:39 Linkara: "I don't think Bendis actually gets-" Me: "Comics? The fans and what they actually enjoy out of individual stories and concepts? Most of the characters he's ever written?" Linkara: "-What Tony's deal is with futurism." Me: "That works too." On the topic of Tony? There's actually a really simple change that would have made his point of view, even from the get go, sound reasonable: The Butterfly Effect. Simply knowing the future changes it, the time that it takes for them all to hear about the future changes the very future that they've just been forewarned of. To expand on this idea, I'd change the Thanos vision event. Have it be that things go wrong BECAUSE they knew the future. They know where Thanos is going to be, so they all go out to meet him. Except Thanos detects the team there and teleports in somewhere else so as to avoid them, rendering the vision moot. This can then form the backbone of the event. The future can be predicted with a certain degree of accuracy, yes. But even if you could get all the information across in a single second, that's still a difference from what the foreseen future was. And that can snowball into larger and larger consequences down the line. And knowing how the visions work can even play into it, because now "They're not even seeing the future, and we don't know that they're getting complete information" or the like, just throwing more doubt on all of this. But the visions are right more often than not, at least about the factual stuff. Thanos DID come to Earth, or there WAS a bomb in that briefcase, etc, etc. So the sides are basically as followed: Do you put your faith in the dubious quality of the future visions, which can be changed by simply knowing about them, or do you instead deny them, knowing how fickle they truly are? That would be an actually interesting topic of debate and conflict.

[@Talyrion]

I mean... wouldn't it still make denying the visions stupid? Even with this revised Thanos script, "doing nothing" still is likely to lead to the worst possible outcome. The question only becomes "how can we act on those visions to obtain a desirable outcome?", with possible disagreements on the methodology.

[@KertaDrake]

The problem with groups of heroes vs groups of heroes without villain influence is that most of the time the only way they do it is by having one side act like total jerks who undermine any point they might actually have had at every turn. This whole thing feels like Tony was hitting he bottle hard with his problems with basic logic.

[@altejoh]

So, does Ulysses even have a character beyond being the reluctant plot device of this entire thing? Cause if not, I feel like they could have accomplished the same result with some kind of deep learning computer program, Person of Interest style, and not torture, harass, and coerce a person to do all this.

[@bthsr7113]

There's a show I'd recommend to Lewis if he wasn't busy. Starts out seeming like a police procedural with a twist, but it embraces that "twist" and makes it a core story element. Also, I wouldn't call it copaganda as most of the cops encountered were or are dirty, including 1 federal marshal. Oh, and the CIA black ops guys. It does a lot better at the high probability prediction thing. It's called Person of Interest

[@FNGLHR]

Ulysses has no real personality. He's just... bland. He has no political opinions, no outstanding hobbies, he's just... there. The idea that he has a racial or personal bias is outright disproven constantly throughout the event. The reason it's hard to beliieve Tony's numbers is because Ulysses is so nothing of a person that frankly he might as well be a computer. His brain ain't interpreting anything through a filter, it's pure math because he has nothing else to go on.

[@tazzreviews1578]

What makes it worse is that he’s yet to return after this. He goes through not arc of his own, nor does he do anything to quell the conflict.

[@MJFERMEZLA]

The discution at the start is a bad rewrite of the Minority Report scene were they discuss the metaphysics of changing time, but the problem was more "if peoples deserve to be arrest for something they technicly didn't do". I see what they tried to do, but they've forgot the real point of this debate. (P.S. : Comment wrote before getting to the 10 minutes mark. I didn't see that the minority report comparaison at the moment)

[@Stephen-Fox]

This is also where the 'probability function' likely comes from at the start - In Minority Report, the 'minority report' that proved the system was fallible was being suppressed. (And also in some cases I think it's shown or implied that the act of the future being seen causes the future to potentially happen to be prevented). Plus with the threats shown in the comic being ones that are more akin to natural disasters (The weather, as Carol Danvers puts it at the start - Annihilation level events. The hurricanes of disasters, not the terrorist atrocities of them) rather than the over-policing, weaknesses of survailence, etc, MR is about. Maybe until the Hulk bit, which... Linkara goes into about how ridiculous that is. Stark's position, at least at the start of the comic, seems to be "if we predict a flood that will kill hundreds of thousands we shouldn't evacuate the city or try and prevent it because what if there's only a 45% chance of the flood occurring?" and also has shades of "We should let it happen because it would be unethical to evacuate the city." - It shifts to profiling, etc, part way through, sure, but Tony's initial objections seem to come down to "People dying in volcanic eruptions is good, actually."

[@yserareborn]

Minority Report (at least the film) never really goes into the notion that other interventions could exist beyond execution or incarceration. There are arguments that it is still moral to intervene on the predictions without having to use a punitive system of justice.

[@FNGLHR]

@@yserareborn Basically this is a case of the short story is better.

[@Shooter__Andy]

@@yserareborn True, but in the film, at least with the non-premediatated murders that are the only ones that are still happening, there is a VERY strict time limit to prevent them, there's literally not enough time to formulate any other strategy other than using the "all size fits all" one of "send future cops to arrest/kill the suspect".

[@MJFERMEZLA]

@@yserareborn Actually, it does, that what happens to John Anderton, he got help from agatha to face his anger more productivly, and for the rest, it subtle show than... yes, it is overkill to go to direct incarceration, because if you look closely, all the "murders" are based on passion, suddent event that anger the "murderer" at the moment, showing that they are humans and direct incarceration is a cruel answer to this. That another faillur from Civil War II, the prediction here is about VILLAINS PLANING ATTACKS ! It's not "Tony Stark killed Bucky Barns because he got enraged to learn that he killed his parents" where you can find another way to not let that happened, like talking, explaining, just preparing Tony to the shock and other. No, it's "Thanos want to destroy earth", something that OBVIOUSLY MUST BE STOPPED BY FIGHTING !

[@kingofthebis1068]

Can we appreciate that we got Champions out of this though. Really love Kamala Khan as a character finding her place in the marvel universe as a voice for gen Z resistance against the weird mega corporations of the marvel universe.

[@benwasserman8223]

Champions is definitely one of the better stories Marvel pulled off. Really loved the development for characters like Viv and Nova in that series and yeah Ms. Marvel becoming team leader is great to watch. Seriously when’s Lewis going to do a retrospective on her? There’s a lot of content to cover with Kamala over eight years.

[@FNGLHR]

I mean barely, they checked out but I feel they really should've told off tony for... you know... comitting terrorism and endangering their friend for his petty grudgematch. Oh but we don't want Tony to look BAD because we agree with Tony. So they just quietly leave I guess. Eh, they were better for it.

[@myriadmediamusings]

@@benwasserman8223 A retrospective of Kamala would be a dream come true. If that's not in the cards I'd patron a review of No Normal if I had the chance. But on the other point, while Champions did spin out of it and I really enjoyed that book, I feel it definitely doesn't validate CW2. Something good just happened to spin out of something bad.

[@benwasserman8223]

@@myriadmediamusings Well sometimes the good make the problematic seem worth it. I mean, for all of Secret Empire’s problems, I think most people ended up loving Endgame’s Hail Hydra moment and consider it a highlight joke of the film

[@christopherb501]

@@benwasserman8223 She's very recent and a far more active contingent of the zeitgeist. Every other character(s) he's done a retrospective on are significantly older and largely haven't been presented in the same way he cared about them since at the time; Kamala Khan isn't even ten years old yet.

[@JohnnyElRed]

You know a funny thing about Doc Samson and Civil War 2? He was supossed to be dead at the time. Seriously. We didn't got an explanation until a couple of years later in Immortal Hulk. Guess that's the problem when you use so many characters. Their stories become difficult to follow.

[@BronzeBoy520]

I said so on Twitter but I’ll say it again It’s just HONEST to admit that who gives a shit how a character is revived, until they stay dead for a LONG TIME no one really imagines they’re dead. I mean, come on, we never needed to see Rhodey come back to life when we know he’ll be alive in a month later… which he was.

[@Silentking5995]

Does it help that they actually acknowledged Samson was suppose to be dead in the same comic he was in? Or is it worse since they still didn't give an explanation on how he was back beyond the acknowledgment he was dead?

[@maxxjapan619]

So, a bit here; Bendis SHOULD know what Tony's deal is with futurism... because Bendis wrote the initial one-shot that introduced the Illuminati (which Linkara brought up in his World War Hulk review), and Tony explains that as a futurist it's his job to be able to predict and prepare for future events. WOW, this book is badly written...

[@DarthScrewtape27]

I feel like Carol took so much flak because this was out of character for her. At this point tony has sucked BIG time for 20 years. So yes. I think this is just par for the course for him.

[@RhyperiorRanger]

Marvel heroes: Wow! Someone with precognitive abilities! That’s so amazing and we’ve NEVER seen something like that before! Spider-Man: See I didn’t know I came here to be disrespected 😑

[@atiredfloridian777]

Spiderman's life in general really.

[@Marveryn]

we can list how many people have that ability including one spiderman is in first name basis with. Madam Web.

[@Pleinair92]

Really, the Marvel universe is so big that it's hard to come up with a superpower that hasn't been done at least once.

[@kingofthebis1068]

Destiny, Blindfold, Madame Web, Franklin Richards, etc

[@Pikatwig16]

Another comment mentioned Carol once had precognitive abilities herself back in the day when she was Ms. Marvel. Whoops.

[@NotSpecialDude]

I feel like Rhodey's death could have been handled better. Imagine this, instead of just being killed by Thanos, he's killed by Ulysses accidently. Have it so that before they go to deal with the predicted Thanos, Rhodey bonds with Ulysses and the later unintentionally creates a mental bond with him. Then during the fight, Ulysses has another vision of a more minor incident, but being bonded causes Rhodey to have that vision too. In the middle of combat with Thanos. Naturally Thanos takes advantage and lands a killing blow. Tony would be pissed since if they did any research on the kid's powers they likely would have discovered the potential for the kid to bond and "share" his visions, but instead they chose to rush his usage.

[@Phantom-hopper]

Tony wants to study the powers Carol wants to rush it because shes not the one to wait That's a good motivation you should be a writer

[@koneheadcokehead4981]

I see Hawkeye is doing his best Punisher impersonation

[@VerdantRange]

The stuff with Tony vs. Carol reminds me of something Duke Devlin once said. Specifically, "Oh, you're both idiots!" I look forward to the day where Linkara reviews Civil War III: Coon & Friends vs. Freedom Pals.

[@repulser93]

Sequel to the only ACTUAL good version of Civil War II.

[@jamesmason7979]

As someone who read Captain Marvel and The Ultimates, I can say that Carol's stance was better articulated in those comics. She does get called out a few times in those comics, especially by Ms. America and Aurora. But there's a lot more nuance in her behavior.

[@christopherb501]

Same; agreed.

[@RhyperiorRanger]

9:32 “Congratulations. You are being rescued. Please do not resist.”

[@thatonea-hole]

A good Rogue One reference! 👌

[@TevyaSmolka]

@@thatonea-hole lol indeed

[@WaitWhat-zw2in]

So you're telling me that Ulysses within the span of a few weeks got superpowers, had multiple visions of the apocalypse, went to live on the moon, probably got PTSD from all the death he witnessed, had a war fought over him, was tortured and picked for information, then after all that the embodiment of the universe basically told him, "you know to much for these idiots, how would you like to become a god?" . And he just said yes after all he had been through? Like he couldn't of just had his powers taken away or something? It was probably just like the writers said "well this guy is clearly to OP to stay around so let's just have him foreshadow some stuff and ascend him or something"

[@christopherbennett5858]

If he had a shapeshifting blue wife who was Sherlock Holmes and adopted a southern child, it would be a different story.

[@JohnnyElRed]

R.I.P. William Hurt, by the way. Always loved he portrayal of General Ross, and he helped add something special to the MCU.

[@rjones6127]

He had the best line in the Black Widow movie when he said, “We’ve got Barton, we’ve got Wilson. And the incredible shrinking convict.” Hurt was a great actor.

[@thatonea-hole]

He will be missed since he would have been great in the she-hulk Disney + show! Also possibly down the road as red hulk

[@rickdaniel7341]

I want a third Civil War where, in the aftermath, normal humans finally turn against superheroes for the past infighting that caused all sorts of mass damage.

[@Rabbitlord108]

I say make General Ross a major villain. Make it clear that he has grown to absolutely despise folks like the Avengers. In his eyes they keep making the same mistakes and never truly learn. Declaring that he will never trust them again.

[@legomaniac213]

Meanwhile, the X-Men are sitting on the sidelines saying: "We don't want to say we told you so, but we told you so."

[@Rabbitlord108]

@@legomaniac213 With Magneto making a speech about how the Avengers brought it upon themselves in a tie-in.

[@PosthumanHeresy]

@@Rabbitlord108 Have JJJ there too. Honestly, don't even make them clear villains. Like, have Jonah see the light and flip perspective 100%: Spider-Man's one of the only good ones. Heck, have Peter find out about OMD via their machinations and have him join up with them. Get a bunch of the street level heroes involved in wanting to take down the god-tier heroes for just making everything worse, with Peter explicitly outlining it that these idiots keep ruining everything when they should be being like them. A freakish alliance of Ross, JJJ, Kingpin, and a bunch of street-level heroes. Punisher even getting involved on the side of the "okay, screw these morons". The weirdest team-up ever looking to take down the OP morons who keep almost killing all of humanity or turning the world into a fascist nightmare. Some of them even pointing out that like, yeah, Fisk is a monster, but he's just a greedy monster. The worst possible situation with Wilson Fisk is just like... 1% of the body count that the Avengers rack up in a minor spat. All the street-level guys, some of the crime lords and the like, Ross, JJJ, and some others. With what keeps them from being character assassinated here is that like, they're absolutely right.

[@actiniumfrosting6362]

"This is a good thing" gives off similar vibes as "This is a kindness". And as a fellow Doctor Who fan, it doesn't take a lot to remember why that phrase doesn't exactly spark joy.

[@Stargazer_Ley]

Given that he's a Whovian, I'm surprised his time jokes didn't include "a great big ball of wibbly wobbly timey wimmy stuff." lol

[@FNGLHR]

A few things for clarification that might interest those asking similar questions asked in this review: 1: The plan to bring all the heroes to Utah to confront Banner was an attempt to prevent the vision from coming true. Because the vision occurs in New York, it was figured that if everyone was in Utah that means it can't come to pass. This is explained in the Captain Marvel tie-in series. Imperfect plan, yes. But not completely brain dead as presented in the actual event. 2: Tony Stark talking about Medusa "ruining his life" is in reference to how in retalliation for his actions, the Inhumans basically destroyed his reputation and business. These were covered in the Inhuman Tie-Ins. Again, a lot of these relevant plot points keep occuring outside the actual event and it's not helpful to the narrative's cohesion. 3: No it is never explained why they put Ulysses in robes and red face paint in any tie-ins. He just looks like that because TRIGGER or whatever. 4: The Ultimates actually DO show nuance in how they problem solve future disasters, even before Ulysses shows up. This is because Al Ewing is a good writer and actually seemed to be one of the few at Marvel who sided with Carol. So if you want something that at least gets SOME of how to do this right, read those books. They cure Galactus' hunger, it's cool. 5: If you must know, the vision that led to Bruce's death was actually triggered by Stevil's manipulations as he had Gamma Samples smuggled to him in order to test how the visions worked. Again, this is tie-in crap that should've been revealed in the main event at some point, but wasn't. The same is true of the fact Stevil is gaslighting Miles, because he does believe that vision of him getting killed will come to pass and blah, blah, see Linkara's review of Secret Empire to see how that resolved itself. This comment has gotten too long at this point so I'm going to leave my thoughts about the review in a different one. This is just if anyone has questions about what was going in the other books or the Marvel universe at the time.

[@mikegates8993]

Is number 4 the time he was cured of his hunger and it unleashed something much worse then him or was that a different time he got cured? And if it's a different time, how did they prevent that from happening again?

[@FNGLHR]

@@mikegates8993 No, that was different. Its been a while since I read the book, but they asically fiixed him entirely and he only went back on that progression when a future problem came along that required him to revert again to save people. But it was different than that other time. I'm pretty sure.

[@mikegates8993]

@@FNGLHR Ah, thank you.

[@seekerstheshy3842]

Wait this made me think of something, if keeping the heroes out of New York was so the vision couldn't come true, why then bring them TO Banner, the dude who was prophesized to kill them?? If Hawkeye hadn't stepped in it's hinted he would've hulked out, which considering it was a big enough deal they had to move all of the heroes would've spelt disaster anyways? Why did they need to be there when they came to Banner? Why not just have the heroes go anywhere else that wasn't New York? In other words it's still a pretty stupid plan and all those heroes did not need to be there, along with the fact that it was also stupid to be so aggressive with the guy when everyone should've known that doing that risked him hulking out. Now I may be wrong in my assumptions here as I haven't read any of these comics but I felt the need to point this out as I'm genuinely confused how anyone thought that was a good idea.

[@FNGLHR]

@@seekerstheshy3842 Look I didn't say it was a perfect solution, Carol's writer at the time was doing what she could to try smooth over the shitty cracks Bendis gave her. My ultimate point is, Carol was trying to prevent the vision and take Banner in peaceably. I'm not trying to defend how absolutely f-ing stupid it was to kill off Bruce this was, I'm trying to explain Carol's reasoning or at least the one that was better than just outright stupidity presented in the main event. I'm trying to say this isn't Carol's fault. She didn't know what Hawkeye was going to do, if she did he wouldn't have been there. I'm trying to remind folks that this was set up by HydraCap anyway and that Carol had it mostly under control, Hawkeye jumped the gun regardless, she even argues that in the tie-in where she explains what the plan was. I'm not trying to too excuse the decision to kill Bruce, he's one of my favorite heroes and killing him was a mistake. I'm just trying to explain that Carol put more thought into than the event claims she did. I would argue that given it's the Hulk, it's probably best to take precautions, but there is an argument that these are the wrong kind of precautions so I'm not making that argument here. Unlike Tony Stark, I am flexible.

[@wdcain1]

What upsets me is I can see a version of this story working? It asks the opposite question of the first Civil War: How much power do you trust with private individuals? But it provides no answers.

[@o76923]

The Avengers Assemble cartoon did some great versions of this story 1. What if Red Skull and his evil team of jerks gets his hands on your prediction algorithm and uses it to make his crimes work better in the future? 2. What if it works so well that heroes start to slack off because their job is so much easier, but then it suddenly breaks? 3. What do you do when Ultron gets his hands on it and concludes that the only way to save humanity is to start replacing them with robots? 4. How do you handle team morale and trust when your algorithm keeps recommending dangerous courses of action that get teammates hurt because that's the only solution given the information it has access to? This absolutely could work as a premise. They just didn't do it.

[@TokyoGirl07]

Here's what's more annoying: I was reading the Hulk book at the time, and Bruce was no longer Hulk. Tony had confirmed he wasn't the Hulk. So either Bendis didn't know that (or didn't care, both are likely) or Hawkeye only thought he saw green and everyone was freaking out over NOTHING because of Ulysses' own possible subconscious fear of the Hulk coming out due to the arguing. Not unlikely due to, like he said, the Hulk's history....be nice if they had actually used that!

[@Morhek]

When Beast said "he wasn't fighting you," I thought he was going to say Tony was projecting onto Captain Marvel because he regretted his support of the Superhuman Registration Act, and could only see her as himself doing the wrong thing. Which might have been an interesting angle, though not a redeeming one. The actual reason seems so much dumber.

[@mistertea603]

THAT'S WHAT I THOUGHT TOO!!!

[@GeneralKenobi75]

Which just makes Tony look like an even bigger idiot because he is once again making things worse.

[@SylentVoidkeeper]

A scene from the Civil War movie I don't feel like enough people talk about is the negotiation scene between Tony and Steve after the highway chase. I think it's really important for a number of reasons, but the main two are: 1: It pulls Tony down from a lot of the moral high ground he placed himself on. He lets slip that he and Pepper are currently taking a break, noting that his failure to keep the promise of Iron Man 3 and move away from heroics has damaged their relationship. He wants to use the Accords to act as a sort of middle ground. It's important because it does actually give Tony a bit of bias outside of his guilt, he still is thinking of himself as much as he's thinking of the situation at hand. 2: Steve was *about to agree* with him. Steve asks if Bucky will be taken care of, noting that he's clearly a psychological powder keg but that he could he hopefully healed with proper therapy. The only reason he relents is because Tony accidentally talks about how he's basically used Vision to imprison Wanda in the compound, saying that "she's an illegal immigrant" and that "they don't give green cards to weapons of mass destruction". Tony has clearly compromised his own morals for the sake of doing what he thinks is right, and Steve rightfully calls out how shitty of a thing that is. How Wanda is basically still a kid and that acting like she's some inhuman thing is incredibly cruel. It gives Steve more reason to not like how the government is doing things aside from just past experience.

[@toqkaizogou1636]

Something telling about the lack of planning and rushed nature if this event: Carol wasn't originally going to be part of this when it was announced. The first promotion if this event was artwork of Tony fighting *Sam Wilson* (as Captain America). Carol was a sudden change that came after the initial marketing.

[@christopherb501]

And in that reality, _Sam_ is still the one that gets hated on harder than Tony, only because of racism instead of misogyny this time.

[@skorn8112]

If we're talking Langoliers wouldn't the future be a still frame since it's a time that has not yet happened while the langoliers eat the past.

[@GreenDiablo]

"Sounds like we're fighting the weather" *insert Clerks Animated clip* "No, it's rain! RAIN! Alright, try and kill it if you want."

[@onemariobro]

I recall GodzillaMendoza hates that the MCU is taking over the comics, but if this is the way the comics are going then screw the comics

[@1gient]

"Life is a journey, time is a river, and the door is a jar".

[@Mobysimo]

So what's clear to me is that all these characters haven't heard of a self fulfilling prophecy! Like... The Hulk thing is a clear example of a self fulfilling prophecy. The vision almost came to pass because you *saw* it happen. The moment you saw that, then the whole argument for using these visions would be out the window because it shows that they come to pass only because someone reacts to them.

[@AT4W]

Which would have been fine... except it's established each time that the visions AREN'T self-fulfilling prophecies. They're a version of the future that is prevented once they learn of it. Ulysses sees what would happen if they weren't informed of it.

[@Mobysimo]

@@AT4W Honestly this just shows the writers didn't think these visions through at all. They establish that their possible futures that are averted, yet have one that looks more like them creating that future because they saw it happen

[@WolfMaestro5482]

@@AT4W In Ms. Marvel there are two instances of the predictions being self fulfilling. It also shows in the main story that they can be flat out wrong with the woman who was being railroaded even though they knew the prediction was wrong.

[@gearoidoconnell5729]

@@AT4W at the end, Ulysses was seeing the future of another marvel Earth. I.e. Earth-691, the future timeline of the hero Killraven. The story shows the alternate future timeline of Earth-811 Days of Future Past". So puts up how long has been seeing any earth and gives wrong information to heros. I also think if you made no plans and never going to do that and get arrested it was wrong was a point that the movie was trying to make.

[@brannonhatfield1984]

​@@AT4W note that I have to read it for my self but it might have been more interesting if it was a self fulfilling prophecy that was slightly altered (and no heroes except for maybe Bruce banner died up some were injured). This might Tony's argument make more sense because the future advent still happened. It also makes Carol actions actually make more sense as well due to the fact that she would be more determined to stop these prediction. because at the moment carol is approaching the issue to harshly while Tony is basically saying that the future is over there and over there has to take care of its own problems.

[@AmariieMaerthos]

14:08 Part of me believes that Jean isn't actually reading everyone's minds at the moment, but just knows She Hulk well enough to know that saying that would hit the mark. I mean, she DID used to be the character who broke the fourth wall all the time, who knows what's going on in that head. It's not because I think Jean WOULDN'T do that, I just find the thought hilarious.

[@GalenNight]

12:10-13:00 he makes a good point this is something that always bugs me in a superhero universe. You have people with abilities far and beyond normal humans and for some reason there has to be one person who’s skeptic on this. Why? How does that make any sense? Especially if superhero’s have been around since people have been in this planet?

[@redtutel]

I appericate Spider-Man Far From Home for doing the opposite. Someone getting away with a ridiculous lie because they live in a superhero universe where anything's possible

[@michealfoster4411]

I mean if the series were just starting or if they never had anything like it before then yeah I can believe that but this the marvel universe where powers like that can be a dime a dozen depending on what time period it is or who it is.

[@trevingrayek8292]

People not believing things they see regularly is very realistic

[@Macrochenia]

@@redtutel And that's why an experienced hero like Jen would be skeptical. Precognition is a dangerous ability, especially if you don't understand how a given precog's powers work. Maybe they're only accurate 25% of the time. Or maybe they're accurate but misleading- he sees a vision of Iron Man shooting Captain Marvel in the back, but what he doesn't know is that it's actually an Adaptoid. The fact that everybody just accepted his powers so easily is what led to the Civil War II happening, after all.

[@ianr.navahuber2195]

@@redtutel yeah. even some civilians apparently doing it too. like that teacher saying his wife faked her death during the snap and run away

[@ill_hex8103]

As someone who never read Civil War II, I had a panic attack when Linkara started apologizing before he got into the confrontation with Bruce. I thought Carol was gonna do something RRRRRRREEEEEEAAAAAALLLYYY messed up that would be justification for fans saying her character was assassinated. Still messed up how it went and the fact that Clint fully believed that the vision would come true despite the Hulk's whole pariah being that he wants to be left alone.

[@solumanblevins5906]

I think the reason this harmed Carol's Perception is that she comes off as lying to everyone. Tony, as stupid and insane as his motivation is, is consistent in his beliefs and stance. As terrible as he is he atleast states why he's doing this and doesn't waver (till the end atleas with his BS twist). Carol hivever says she's going to approach every issue differently, like in the beginning where she tells Tony that her actions will depend on the situation or the percentage conversation. However when we do see her responding to a vision she always at 200% treating every case like it's a Nuke about to go off in 5 seconds. Like with the girl who she thought might be a hydra agent but sees that the vision doesn't match up, instead of changing her approach she doubles down and threatens her to confess or recieve harsher punishment. Tony is out of line, but Carol consistently comes off as abusing her new power and lying through her teeth about actually preparing each vision accordingly. Doesn't help that the ending she receives no insite as to how her policies were harmful and doesn't grow/change her approach to issues. Both are idiots, but Tony is the only one who gets punished for his dumbassery by the end, probably why most don't focus on how horrible he is in this atrocity....

[@jacobwilliams1223]

Seems like a dumb reason to only focus on Carol being a dick in this. Sticking to your beliefs even when those beliefs make you an asshole and cause you to do terrible things is not an admirable trait.

[@sarafontanini7051]

hell the story seemingly seems to end with the writer trying to ABSOLVE carol of her shitter actions and make her seem like the good guy despite, yknow, arresting an innocent person or feeling no guilt about bruce's death, apparently. And she only seems to rethink her attitude when MILES gets fngered as a potential problem, which amkes her look like a hypocrite willing to change her approach ONLY if she actually cares about someone. Both sides are terrible but at least Stark merely looks like an IDIOT while Carol looks like a FASCIST.

[@jacobwilliams1223]

@@sarafontanini7051 Carol false arrests someone based off a falty vision of the future=fascist. Tony Stark kidnaps an innocent man and tortures him for information=only an idiot. Also love how you solely blame Carol for Bruce's death given both she and Tony equally contributed to that stupidity.

[@FNGLHR]

A few points... okay a lot. You can't blame Carol for not doing more diverse problem solving in the main event when the writer has already decided to railroad her. More specifically, her own tie-ins show she DOES resolve problems on a case by case basis and won't always go to arresting them. Just cause Bendis doesn't want to give Carol a chance to be anything other than a strawman does not mean it's right to ooverexaggerate her actions to the point of nonsense. Which is what people did and keep doing. Claiming she set up concentration camps or killed people. More specifically, that woman she "threatened", the worst of what she did there was play bad cop. That's hardly the same as Tony literally kidnapping and torturing someone. Said woman? Actually turns out the be a terrorist all along. She hates superheroes, she just wasn't Hydra. Story that reveals this, also written by Bendis. And she does recieve insight, what else is Hank McCoy doing but delivering that? And more importantly she's upset over how Tony is in a coma... despite the fact he was trying to kill her. She even uses Tony's talking point about possible futures, showing she has decided he was right in the end. And then in her own series and even other books she goes around saying she's sorry to everyone and basically begging forgiveness. But I guess that wasn't enough for folks. No she had to like kill herself or quit being a superhero or whatever. Then people would forgive her. Carol was punished enough by this stupid event and even stupider fans who let Tony off the hook. And the plain and simple reason of WHY it was worse for Carol is obvious enough... she's a woman. Tony is a man. Female characters are always harshly and overly scrutinized to a point that any flaw, imperfection, mistake and mean look is declared the worst thing ever put to paper and that character is terrible as a result. It has hung arund Carol ever since she got promoted to Captain Marvel and this event was seen as a means to tear her down because she was on the side that was morally iffy to the mainstream.

[@rikowolfin4984]

@@FNGLHR I think when people bring up how this series made Carol look bad, they mean the main series and not the tie-ins or any material after the event comic ( Because after that would be cleaning up the mess this story caused her character, as in she did look bad UNTIL new stories came in to make her look good again by giving extra context to things that weren't shown in the original story. ). And I'd also say no one really brings up Tony being worse is because of a few reasons, Number 1 is that he's been like this in comics since the first civil war so no one is surprised that he's being a dangerous idiot again. Carol is brought up because before this her character wasn't made to look like some one abusing her power and actively thinking the worst of people, which did result in people getting hurt or killed that had their own fans like War Machine, She-Hulk, Hulk especially, and last Miles Morales who a lot of people love and will obviously not like some one originally profiling them and wanting to send them to prison for a crime they didn't commit for obvious reasons. Like Linkara said, if there is critical information about the story but its only in a couple of the over one hundred tie-ins to it, then it's a bad story. As much as there were probably a lot of stories that made Carol out to be in the right and was making up for the mistakes she made in the main story, there were probably a few that made her out to be just as bad or worse, or possibly even make Tony out to be kind of right from the start. Though none of that matters because the story doesn't take those events into consideration anyway, Carol doesn't seem to care that the visions aren't always 100% going to happen like they play out at all and have gotten people hurt or killed, but still jumps to use all the force she can for every problem, and Tony is being a overreacting idiot that doesn't consider that this power could be used with in more reason if they just act more carefully and fully prepared with out jumping to the nuke option. For the fans to get the full context to why Carol isn't actually kinda bad in this story they would have to know to buy certain tie-in books to see things ether get retconed ( Like the innocent woman being a terrorist for whatever reason ) and ignore lines like Black Panther saying there have been a few more incidents like that where the visions weren't correct, and the only way they would naturally know about the first thing is if they bought every comic that was ever related to the main event comic which is unreasonable for most people to do especially if the main series made Carol out to be a overly controlling authority figure that didn't use any alternative methods to solve problems. Because why would anyone buy a book about a character that they have only had bad impressions about. Though just to be clear, people shouldn't hate Carol at all because she's a fictional character and has no will of her own, instead people should hate the writers that made her out to be this way as well as the ones that made Tony out to be like this in the first place because they are doing a bad job and bringing unneeded hatred to books and characters that don't deserve it.

[@ianr.navahuber2195]

4:25 I personally think Civil War II is worse. At least in the First one, things are happening. In the second one it somehow feels nothing is happening yet somehow a Lot of stuff is happening 12:25 not Only that, but Spider-Man has known other precogs like Madame Web. Not to mention, Apparently Stark once Made a team, in a book called Force Works, using Scarlet Witch as the Pre-Cog. Also, Carol has had apparently Pre-Cog abilities at least once 18:49 Is kinda weird how sometimes people forget that possibility of "possession, mind control, or similar" 23:23 Funny enough, according to cómics like Al Ewing's New Avengers / USAvengers runs (that happen AFTER Civil War II, sothey kinda count as a Retcon), hadn't they stopped Thanos thanks to Ulysses, he would have killed most of the héroes In something called Zero Day. Revealed In a Kind of anticlimatic funny way by having Captain América Danielle Cage coming to the past to prevent that Future.... Only to being told "that was was already prevented months ago" 30:11 Ironically, Deadpool made the events of Secret Empire a very important plot point for its own story. As it was basically "Wade makes really dumb decisions, because he trusted HYDRA Stevil Blindly, and just when he gets a chance to make up for it, he gets his chance stolen by Maria Hill. And it the aftermath, he becomes a pariah in the superhero community at best, and at worst, a wanted criminal" 34:17 CLASSIC BENDIS! Ignoring EVEN HIS OWN WORK!!! 39:39 CONSIDERING Bendis had this strange idea of Tony eventually becoming Sorcerer Supreme.... yeah... he doesn't get Tony Stark 51:33 In hinsight I can see why Stevil manipulated Maria Hill all the way up to secret empire.... IN FACT When stevil told deadpool (all after secret empire was over and deadpool went to kill him or tell him he will eventually kill him), that maria hill was responsible for all of this, EVEN HE AGREED As Stevil only existedthanks to Maria Hill's insane reasonings to create Pleasant Hill

[@violagreene4643]

The reaction to precognition is even worse when you remember that CAROL DANVERS herself used to have a form of limited precognition (called her "seventh sense"). No clue if she still does, but she DID have it originally.

[@Dalenthas]

The end of this event: Captain Marvel has a blank check to do whatever she wants. The start of the next Captain Marvel arc after this event: Carol has to license out her likeness to a cheesy soap opera to make up for budgetary shortfalls of the Alpha Flight program.

[@bthsr7113]

Because why have logical progression of cause and effect!? Gah!

[@adambesley4455]

Chalk that up to the US Government failing to deliver yet again on anything it promises.

[@BusoRockin1000]

She bankrupted the program fighting the Civil War II and paying off civil suits from the wrongly convicted maybe?

[@lonewolf6884]

See events like Civil War 2 and Heroes in Crisis are the reason why superhero comics are so unpopular. It's also why people are more likely to read a superhero Manga than superhero comic nowadays.

[@Robintheboywonder4]

I think the main reason people seem to hate Carol over Tony in this event is the same reason people tend to rag on Tony and forget about Captain America in the original Civil War, because she won, or at least ended up in a position of power at the end, whilst Tony is clinging on for dear life. The other problem this event has is that having a precog able to do things like what he did in the opening would completely stifle future storytelling opportunities, it was never going to be a lasting thing. One could rework it as Hydra-Cap pulling the strings to divide the super-hero community [and let's not forget it, having a precog who could out him as HYDRA could have ruined his plans, so naturally he sided with Tony] in preparation for his own plan.

[@kevinbell5674]

I think it's just people generally being anti-authoritarian. Which ever side is more authoritarian is the one more disliked.

[@Robintheboywonder4]

@@kevinbell5674 I mean, there's that too

[@GeneralKenobi75]

Which is all Tony's own fault. Carol was actually listening to Steve and Miles at the Capitol and backed down. And then Tony comes in guns blazing while all the while Carol is trying to calm the situation down. Tony even has the gall to say she almost killed Cap when it was his missiles that did that. Tony Stark, as usual, is a terrible person and his own worst enemy.

[@caileanthomson1286]

With the Civil War movie, I could see the merits of both sides, as well as their drawbacks. With both the Civil War comics, it's either Super Marvel Smash Bros., or trying to turn a clever story (The Minority Report by Philip K. Dick) into Giant Superhero Egos All Out Attack.

[@SuprousOxide]

The real conflict in the Civil War movie wasn't the registration, it was Bucky being falsely accused and Steve trying to protect him. Seems Tony could have listened to Steve and given him the chance to prove Bucky's innocence. So I didn't really see merit in his end of things (until he found out what Bucky DID do,but that was after the big fight at the airport that started the "Civil War")

[@jadenbryant9283]

@@SuprousOxide yeah but Tony was sorta going through major issues at the time not an excuse yeah but yeah

[@mikegates8993]

@@SuprousOxide You can argue that Steve was taking a lot on faith from a man that had been subjected to mind control and he'd even seen could still be triggered, so Tony did have a point about not fully trusting Bucky was innocent before he had anything that really proved it.

[@Wright805]

@@mikegates8993 On the other hand when Bucky was taken into custody Steve asked if he'd get a fair trial and some government stooge laughed at him. So yeah, I can see where Steve was coming from.

[@jt808ful]

Thunderbolt Ross and the UN coulda shoved like have of there examples for needing the accords up their asses. The shield was about to nuke New York during avengers 1. Thunderbolt Ross went to the hulk to bring down abomination in Harlem and sent dude after hulk in the first place. Winter soldier stuff was hydra. Sarkorvia was ultron and ultron was Wanda’s fault ffor mind fucking tony. Hulks Africa rampage was also Wanda’s fault. The avengers even existing was shield/hydra. It’s funny that they make accors against the avengers and not the USA and it’s not like these folks don’t know any of it cause black widow leaked those hydra files telling so much shit.

[@CazMeister]

So in summation: Carol Danvers: We should do something! Tony: Should we do something? Carol Danvers: We should do something! Tony: Should we do something? Carol Danvers: We should do something! Tony: Should we do something? Carol Danvers: We should do something! Tony: Should we do something?

[@dalek--ck9oy]

You forgot her later beating Tony to death

[@changvasejarik62]

I hope your comment makes linkara’s top 15 missed gag opportunities.

[@watchm4ker]

Ulysses: I'M EVOLVING! Tony: Should we do something? Carol Danvers: We should do something!

[@CazMeister]

@@changvasejarik62 Only if he ends it with Carol punching Tony and saying "Well I did something."

[@maxxjapan619]

... why hasn't Linkara given this a like yet?

[@concordiaharmony2302]

So five months late, but all this talk of telling the future reminded me of one of the best characters in 40k, Konrad Kurze of the Night Lord's. If I recall correctly, Kurze has the ability to see the future. Or at least flashes of the future. One time, as he was walking about a city on the planet Nostromo, he saw a young individual, like I think early teens, approaching him. At that moment he has two visions: both starts with the teen drawing a knife to try and kill Kurze. One would lead to his own death, the teen stabbing him in a vital organ and causing him to die of a mortal wound. The other was of a future where he stops the boys attack and actually takes him in as a ward, growing a fatherly relationship with him and eventually dying of old age and passing his mantle on to him as ruler of Nostromo. However, Kurze is not one for taking chances. So before the teen could even react, he killed the teen immideately with a single strike. Afterwards, he realized the position fo the kids knife on his body would have made it hard for him to draw the blade quick enough to actually assault the Night Haunter. Konrad though, justifies the death anyways as a precaution. That the ends justifies the means. I think a major part of why that mentality works for Kurze is because... well it's 40k. He's a bad guy, and one of the eventual traitors that would turn to Chaos. He's grown up on the equivellant of Bludhaven and Gotham mixed together and expanded to a planetary scale, and has grown jaded to the notion that anyone could be good or capable of redemption. Even himself. So taking people out before they could qctually do anything is more fitting for him rather then the heroes of Civil War.

[@Dalenthas]

Tony did actually build an algorithm to predict the future, it was the basis of Force Works in the 90s.

[@elpizo1789]

The way I see it, the schism should have been over how to use the prophecies - do you carefully study them to determine the best course of action (with a chance that this could slow you down to prevent a tragedy) or do you take no chances and assume every single one is correct, because the alternative would be worse? Let's take the Thanos incident. If they did prep, War Machine would not be in the roster - it would be packed with Thor, Blue Marvel, Captain Marvel - anyone close to Titan's power level. Or, at most , have Rhodey be a support from the back line. But maybe they thought there was no time and had to rush things. A scenerio - you just found out there is a bomb that's going to explode in ten minutes. You can call the bomb squad and hope they'll get here in time, or you do something yourself, but risk making it worse. Both are gambles, but which odds are you willing to bet on?

[@LoboGuara5bruxaria]

And THAT is how you make an interesting conflict: A situation were there is no clear cut "perfect" solution, just two different sides choosing what they belief is the best solution...

[@pn2294]

@@LoboGuara5bruxaria that makes it worse because there’s no incentive to do anything because you’d be screwing either way

[@treyurbach2550]

I’m just gonna get something off my chest now. But for some reason Brian Michael Bendis HATES Hawkeye, who is one of my favorite members of the Avengers. He killed him of in Disassembled after other characters called him a pig, brought him back only to make him a ninja for some stupid reason, and have him suddenly be far more ok with murdering people, even though Hawkeye’s view that Avengers should never kill unless there was no other possible alternative is what led to the collapse of his marriage with Mockingbird. Me and all other Hawkeye fans all shared a collective sigh of relief when Bendis left for DC where he was as far away from Hawkeye as possible.

[@FNGLHR]

Honestly, your feelings are similar to my own concerning how he's treated Carol. This event especially, namely because he went out of his way to justify evvery terrible thing Tony does and make Carol look like an idiotic monster. It was an obvious railroading and why I sided with Carol on principal, because it was clear everyone was out to get her from the moment her side was chosen.

[@christopherb501]

And what a shock: his impact on DC is full of retcons and full of idiotic ideas for every one good one.

[@OverlyPositiveFanboy]

I definitely understand the anger, but I've gotta admit, a storyline where Hawkeye dies and comes back shaken enough to be willing to kill sounds like a great character exploration. I'm not saying Bendis gave us that exploration, just that the potential was there.

[@kingofthegundam7974]

@@christopherb501 He wrote a good Superman run, so I can let that slide.

[@christopherb501]

@@kingofthegundam7974 Haven't read it, but even if that run was outstanding, one of the best Superman ever got, he still screwed things up for too many other characters for me to care.

[@Artista_Frustrado]

thing is, Marvel has actually done the Protect vs Change the Future well: that's basically the whole dynamic between Bishop & Cable! Bishop goes back to stop the Sentinels Wars but that ends up affecting Cable's future ability to stop Apocalypse from wiping all life on Earth, so theX-Men had to find a way to make the thing happen in a controlled way so Bishop cn have his cake & Cable eats it too

[@Artista_Frustrado]

-so in Minority Report the argument works because the PreCrime Division basically invalidated Conspiracy Crimes, so is all Heat of the Moment Crimes that get dealt with, also the movie does point out the flaws in the PreCog sytstem -as for how to write this Conflict in the Comic: Tony questions the PreCog's effectiveness & wants to study further, while Carol's job is LITERALLY to prevent this kind of Major un-natural Disasters and her hesitating while having the tools to prevent them is just as irresponsible, case in point they didn't stopped Thanos Good so Rodey got heavily injured, & counter argument: the Giant Monster at the start was meant to win so it ain't a 100% certain future, just saying

[@kevintrjohnson]

Conspiracy to commit IS an act-it requires taking certain steps before it becomes criminal-organizing a group of people to take part and opening discussing the planned act, hiring a killer, buying the ingredients for a bomb, driving to a judge’s neighborhood while carrying a weapon even if they don’t go through with the actual murder. Conspiracy is also used against people who assist in the planning of a crime that does occur but were not active enough to be considered accessories to the crime. It’s probably been abused, but it’s not the same as profiling or pre-cog, it typically involves a tip and long hours of surveillance.

[@nicodemusedwards6931]

Carol: We have to stop the Hulk from killing everyone! Bruce: *Dies and comes back infused with the power of a Multiversal source of evil that wants to kill all of reality so it can be alone.*

[@SBaby]

Speaking of inconsistencies, aren't Carol and Tony BOTH supposed to have dealt with alcoholism in the past? And NOW they're just nonchalantly like, 'Let's have a drink'. Is this supposed to be the Andy Jr. moment of Marvel comics or something, where someone's kid died and now they're back to the drink? I mean, what happened that put them back on the booze?

[@koneheadcokehead4981]

I guess this what you get when you try to rush a comic because a movie is coming out at the same time.

[@Dynaman21]

This is one of those REALLY bad comics that paints the character in a negative light for a long time, like Gabby Rivera’a America Chavez or early Youngblood. Carol was a pariah.

[@donb7519]

and carol has a bad moment every few years now normally as a writer trying to have a girl boss moment see being unreasonably mean about powergirls and sexy costume in general and then her being able to resist the penance stare like we've only seen psychopaths and demons do

[@AllWIllFall2Me]

To feed the algorithm, and for the collective's consideration: I think Tony's points are relatively good ones, even early on, he just fails to lay them out correctly/intelligibly, and he frames them much too harshly early on for his eventual conclusion. (Note: I will confess I only briefly skimmed the original run of the line, and am mostly taking my conclusions from the points brought up in this video so if there are more panels that counter my points, mea culpa.) Like Linkara says, he started too close to 100. If I can propose a different emotional arc, that I believe expands on the arguments Tony is making (poorly) through the series: He should be treating this much more as a novel thought experiment at the party: "oh cool, this kid saw the future, and we prevented it? That means his future visions aren't immutable. So how mutable are they? What if we'd done X differently? What if we'd gotten different heroes to help out? Once he told us, and we started preparing, obviously things would be different, meaning that future couldn't happen as he saw it...but by how much? How much of a difference did any given choice make?" And then that should follow into him classifying this as being 'useful, but until they know more, not something to be relied upon,' since, it's really just a super-powered version of an anonymous tip-off until they can understand the power, and look what happened when some heroes acted without caution to a tip-off in Stamford. Thus, Tony should be mildly interested, and skeptical to the utility, not framing this immediately as a morality question. That should be expounded on with Rhodey's death. Here, Tony can lay out the theoretical/implicit point he makes in issue 1: Once they start acting on the vision, the future of that vision saw is dead, and they can't know what's going to happen. That's the "the future is the future" and "can't be controlled" that he keeps referencing (which is, in a way, almost the same argument that Bruce makes about time-travel in Endgame, just in reverse: Ulysses sees "the future", so they react, and now that future is different) but he hasn't made that argument clearly enough for it to be digestible: Have him demand to know the body count in Ulysses' vision, and argue whether just evacuating a couple city blocks would have stopped it. Or if having Thanos be met with a hologram telling him "we don't have a cosmic cube, you're wasting your time" would have done so. And point out that Carol can't disprove they'd solve the problem, because she doesn't have her little magic vision pal to tell her so. Rhodey's death is Carol's 'fault': because she brought him there, acting on intel that by going there, she was changing; that she should have tried other tactics that didn't endanger (people Tony cares about); and, implicitly, Tony deep-down believes that he could have handled the situation better. Maybe have him better explain what he sees as the difference between his brand of futurism, and her actions, something like "My inventions adapt to the oncoming future, and seek to guide it to a better one. With so many forces involved, trying to just "stop" futures without careful and precise action is like trying to stop a truck by stepping in front of it: someone is going to get hurt. Today, you pushed Rhodey in front of the future. And he got hurt." (That's like, the best guess I can make on his point about "the natural order of things" and why him preparing based on his knowledge of her powers is different than her flying off to arrest someone based on Ulysses's vision) Then Banner's death: the question of "what if we make things WORSE by acting on the information incorrectly?" gets introduced. Like, given time to cool down, Tony can admit that of course Rhodey would gladly sacrifice his life to save others, and just as Carol can't say other methods wouldn't have worked, he can't say they would have...but Bruce was, functionally, executed on suspicion of future crimes. And this stance should be hardened when he finds "proof" that the visions aren't even certain: now, they're making active and potentially harmful changes based on a possibility. Tony shouldn't be talking about Rhodey's death at the basement meet-up, he should be talking about BRUCE'S. Because, to lean into the metaphor Carol uses, they got the tip that "this guy had a gun"...and Clint killed him. Bruce Banner isn't Thanos. As noted, Hulk didn't even kill in World War Hulk. But he's dead now, because Ulysses's power suspected that he'd go on a rampage. That's too far. Boom. That's a far more coherent version of what I believe Tony's arguing in the series, which is very poorly articulated in text, overlaid onto a better emotional framework, so that we, the audience, don't start with Tony three steps ahead in the argument that he hasn't laid out, and getting mad at shit no one else in the room has even suggested.

[@HyruleSwordsman94]

I was reading Guardians of the Galaxy at the time, which was also written by Bendis. The ONLY reason they appear in this, and subsequently, their tie-in, is because Carol, who was a member of the team for awhile, asked for their help. Fair enough, helping your friend out. And admittedly, three of its members, Kitty Pryde (Who was Star-Lord at the time), Flash Thompson, and Ben Grimm are Earth-based, so not entirely out of reason they'd want to help... Except Rocket brings up the ultimate counter-argument! If, given the choice between hanging out with him, and being on Earth, so many Earthlings choose to hang out with him, then Earth must suck! So we should stay away!

[@ChiefMedicPururu]

Most of the hate towards Carol in the event seems to come from the tie-ins while the hate towards Tony comes from the main issues. Hence why you see more stupidity and less heroic behavior from Tony here. While Carol acted way more like a bitch in the tie-ins. Also, the Inhumans were justified in being angry towards Tony for kidnapping Ulysses, but what they did in retaliation, no. Every side in this thing is a mess!

[@christopherb501]

Ironic, since I only glanced at her and Ms. Marvel's tie-ins, and even for said attitude from Kamala's perspective, she didn't come off like a universally awful jerk. Oh, just another pointer towards Tony's side being stupid? Scarlet Witch's lone tie-in only glanced on it, so I did pick that up, already following the title. Quicksilver pops in, being a full-on true believer in "protecting the future". That guy, the consistent jerkwad who's constantly obsessed with his sister. Just saying.

[@ChiefMedicPururu]

@@christopherb501 Yeah, it's like it transformed into the Ultimate Universe.

[@GeneralKenobi75]

Still doesn't change the fact Tony just kept making things worse and worse. Especially at the end where Steve has gotten Carol to listen and back down. Then Tony comes in guns blazing and escalates the situation. Tony Stark continues to be a colossal A-hole. Carol may be in the wrong too, but she at least tries to keep the situation from getting worse. Besides the whole Bruce Banner fiasco where everyone conveniently forgets their brains.