Long vs Short Chainstays

[@albertbatfinder5240]

I am indecisive, so I’d adjust the left side short and the right side long. Possibly. Maybe the other way round. Dunno. Depends on the corners.

[@gjtramey]

After decades of preferring short chainstays, for the perceived efficiency and power transfer, I am solidly in the long chainstay camp now. Yes, greater stability and smoothness. In the dirt, my Jones LWB has 19"/483mm chainstays that are combined with a very long, nimble front end (67.5 degree HA & 76mm rake= 76mm trail) that produces a huge sweet spot for finessing the bike. It allows me to climb descend steeper hills with increased stability and confidence. My old Surly Pugsley has rear horizontal dropouts/dropins that allow about an inch of effective chainstay length difference. I strongly prefer the longer setting. And yes I can tell the difference; it is not a subtle difference.

[@benjaminn8139]

Exactly the feedback that I've been looking for. I'm building up a Pugsley atm :) Those Tuggnuts are more than $100 a pair where I live so I want to make sure that it's worth it.

[@BoxCarBoy12]

Russ, you're spot on with your observations! The only other thing I'd add is that short chainstays can keep a bike nimble even if it has a slacked out front end due to the shorter wheelbase. I personally am a short chainstay guy, I won't buy any bike with a longer chainstay length than 420mm because yes you can feel even a 10mm difference. To me the gravel bike is a jack of all trades and the short chainstay gives it that road bike sprightliness (which allows me to get rid of my road bike and just use a second road wheelset on my gravel bike for pavement rides), and many of the disadvantages in stability and comfort can be ironed out with bigger tires. If I wanted something that felt more stable for rougher terrain I'd just hop on my mountain bike. Additionally, the less stable feeling of a short chainstay contributes more to the underbiking aspect of gravel cycling.

[@charlessmith5274]

Why would anyone want to get rid of any bike...

[@markjthomson]

Love the idea of variable chain stay. Perfect if you are using panniers as the rack position doesn't change but you can adjust the bike to where you are riding.

[@ThatGuy-mn2gg]

I bought my first bike 2 months ago. I landed on a Felt Breed 30. It has a 420 chainstay riding on Btw Byways at 40 psi. This will be "SOP" for the foreseeable future. In my search I realized that most of the gravel bikes tend to hover in the 430-450 range. And every bike I rode was a positive experience because I didn't have a bike. They were all nice. The longer chainstay length did produce a more relaxed and stable experience. But I love how responsive my bike feels. Only slight actions are required for change of direction. It's razor sharp in fact. I can easily pop a wheelie on my bike but I don't feel confident at all riding with no hands. I think that can attributed to the chainstay length. Good Stuff. And great channel man. Your videos certainly played a huge part in my decision making.

[@jkeiffer]

Very good observations. You also do a great job covering many aspects. I was about to ask a question, but then you went ahead and answered it because you are so thorough. I also appreciate when your reviews or feedback are in shorter vids like this (which they almost always are). Everything we need and nothing we don't.

[@cycle-safari]

Hey Russ, this is really cool, and I'm glad to see that you're willing to experiment and be honest with us that your preferences might be changing...that's really cool! I wonder if this new, more nuanced approach to chainstay length will eventually make its way into a revised bike flavor wheel?

[@Darfur64]

I have a Salsa Woodsmoke with adjustable chainstays, I've been enjoying keeping it on the long side. Relaxed and definitely #partypace

[@chrisblandford853]

Hey Russ - This is pointed out below too, but swapping the chip on this bike is going to change things beyond just the chainstay length. The longer setting here will also lower the BB, and slacken the head angle. This is due to the fact that the chip runs in line with the chainstay itself, and isn't parallel to the ground. I have a feeling any difference felt between settings is due to all of these things changing, and not just the change to chainstay length--but that's a can of worms not worth exploring here. Worth pointing out, though, possibly. Most track bikes and production slider-based bikes are also commonly built like this, with the adjustment in line with the chainstay. I don't really understand why, though I'm sure there's some reason. It'd make a lot more sense--geometry wise, anyway--to run the chip (or the track end/slider) horizontal.

[@jdurkin227]

My Rivendell has 49cm chainstays. It’s awesome. So stable on long descents and planted on the climbs. They make some that are even longer and I am definitely going to try one out as soon as this lockdown is over.

[@jasonmiller5801]

Always look forward to your content and uploads. Thanks for sharing!

[@BlackWaterCyclist]

I think it also depends on where you like to be in comparison to the pedals. If you like the tt over the front of the bike feel, you will want shorter chainstays to even out the weight while if you sit back more, the longer chainstays will probably feel fine. I really prefer the shortest chainstays possible coming from the MTB world. I used to ride a giant anthem with 18.2 inch (462mm) chainstays which was horrible. Felt like I was pulling a trailer around. Go ride a tandem around and you can see how longer chainstays are more comfortable but sluggish feeling. It is just what you prefer out of your bike.

[@brandtderrickson2023]

My buddies and I were literally just talking about this topic this morning. You posted this just for us. Lol

[@fancytyme]

A couple of years ago, I built up an early 80s Trek 720 with 470mm (!!) chainstays. I put some 650b*42mm Babyshoe Pass tires on it and it's hilariously comfy. It's a traditional 60cm lugged Reynolds 531 frame so I'm not going to be winning any sprints with it, but it's so nice for touring.

[@rustyhurley5510]

Minnesota based Otso fanboy here and glad to see after a few Otso reviews you moved the tuning chip on this one. One factor not mentioned as a consideration was Winter. I own an Otso Voytek have it on short setting now but once the studded tires go on I'll flip that chip back to the long setting for greater stability. I can't decide between a Warakin or a Waheela C as my next bike....

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

If I had the coin I'd go with Ti!

[@ryanm.9197]

Great video, Russ. I kinda chuckled at what is considered a long chainstay a bit. I ride a Rivendell Appaloosa, 650b wheels, that has a 520mm chainstay length...long enough that you have to add a few links to a new chain to install it. Rivendell has evolved to these longer chainstay lengths over time because they find positives with regard to ride quality. At first I was pretty skeptical, but have changed my opinion on it. I find the bike to handle great, is nicely stable...I love it. I guess it fits my current relaxed and chill riding style nowadays.

[@cccorlew]

I love how careful you are to qualify your opinions in an effort to not be attacked by crazy people. Is it working? I'll bet not. Carry on as long as you have the strength..

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

Ha. No. One can try.

[@gilerd77]

I could imagine moving out there just for those roads!

[@Vam1500]

Thanks! I can adjust the chainstay length on my Trek checkpoint. Maybe I will move it back.

[@sagehiker]

Informative and thought provoking. Crazy to me that that short or change can provoke such perceptible differences.

[@UgaitzEtxebarria]

The longest CS I’ve tried are those of an LHT, and they feel great! Very planted on the climbs and confidence inspiring on downhills. I think rivendell is really onto something with their hillybikes, they must ride like a dream

[@billincolumbia]

Thanks, Russ. I wish you had that GCN money so we could see a blind test. Interesting that you felt that you had more traction on the rear with longer chainstays when there would be less weight on the rear with longer. Must be some other factor in play. Keep up the great work.

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/enOvY4abpa2Vh9k

[@davidbee9563]

I have a Bomb Track Arise with about 15mm of adjustment. In the short setting the rear felt a bit loose on gravel but lively when accelerating and climbing out of the saddle. About the middle felt better. I think a benefit is to be able to adjust to different wheels and have some clearance. It is now set up as a fixed gear commuter(40x17) with 700x38c tires. Works great for either SS or geared. Originally it came with an 8 speed internal hub.

[@greggr1591]

All your long chainstay observations apply, Russ. My new Rivendell Gus Boots-Willsen has a 560 chainstay (!) and it's positively rock solid stable & smooth anywhere. Definitely a swept-back alt-bar ride.

[@ryanm.9197]

Do you like the ride of that bike? I was thinking that one of those may be my next bike but.

[@greggr1591]

@@ryanm.9197 I like it. I got it because I knew I'd want their version of a long chainstay bike. If you're curious, talk to Rivendell; they've always been one of my favorite companies, always willing to help.

[@jeffk433]

Hi Russ. Great video. Did you happen to measure the BB Drop between the long and short settings? Makes me wonder if that is what affected the "turnover" sensation. I prefer medium-long chainstay. I would think a bike used more for bike packing or touring would benefit more from the long chainstay.

[@Jthe5th]

Great comparison, with pretty much clear points.

[@davidbonn8740]

I've got a Riese and Muller Charger GX e-bike with a 475mm chainstay. On fast, straight downhills it is like being on rails, but if you need to turn (especially sharp turns) it is like steering a barge.

[@davidbonn8740]

I'll add that nearly every "E-MTB" I've seen has an insanely long chainstay for a mountain bike, which makes them worse than useless on janky tech and suicidal on many trails.

[@chrislukes9037]

Good points about sense of acceleration, climbing, and vibration damping. One thing I think you didn't really touch on is turning -- I think this relates a little bit to what you called "turn-over rate" but it seems like you were more talking about *resisting turning* while wrenching on the handlebars in order to climb. I suppose this observation might factor in more zipping around tight paved corners, rather than longer rides on straighter dirt roads, but I find my short chainstay road bike feels like I'm steering more with my arms, moving the front wheel around in front of me (while I'm "sitting on the rear wheel") which feels very quick and twitchy; whereas on longer chainstay bikes, I feel like I can steer a bit more with my hips (sitting between the wheels), but the steering is swoopier and slower because I have to lean more with the bike. Obviously, fork rake affects this too, but I find that where your body is positioned relative to the pivot point of the turn (contact patch of the rear wheel) affects the sensation of turning a lot.

[@kylejohnson8043]

I wondered why you didn't do this with the Wolverine! I run mine as short as possible. Might reconsider! Cheers!

[@Radnally]

Built my frame with a 465 chain stay. Stability and traction are great. Made my steering a bit too tight. Looking for a long rake fork now.

[@mikekrasovec6390]

If the fork is steel it's possible to rebend the legs to alter the offset. Any frame builder who makes forks should be able to do the job for you. If you're worried about the bending leading to a failure keep in mind that every steel fork leg was first made into a tube and then bent. That applies to cheap and expensive whether 100 years ago or now. A builder should also be able to get the fork aligned to better than OEM tolerances.

[@b5thomas7]

I like the option for both on this bike or a checkpoint. You can also convert to singlespeed with the stranglehold dropout also, which might appeal to some people.

[@maxredburn6610]

My nicasio has 420mm chainstays and my large feet barely clear them towards the rear axle when I'm clipped in

[@JonasUO]

Interesting video. You seem to suggest that longer cs means more stability on descends, could that be the result of the general longer wheelbase? That could also be achieved by a longer top tube and shorter stem. Thereby keeping the short cs. Some gravel bikes are coming out with geometry like that. Knolly Cache, BMC URS and Evil Chamois Hagar are examples. Is that the way to go? Mountain bikes have tweaked geometry in that direction for years.

[@gffriedman]

I recently read that short chain stays became a thing on race bikes because there wasn’t materials science to create a super stiff long chain stay. Racers needed the instant acceleration of super stiff stays for pack sprints or trying to drop their gasses rivals, and things being what they were pre-supple life, whatever the racers did trickled down into consumer products. Now days, certainly with carbon, and some what with hydro formed aluminum that isn’t true. You can get both super stiff and long. Aside from that, even with steel, I don’t think the drawbacks of very short stays are worth the benefits for casual riding. I don’t think I’d want to go below 430ish, and I’m ok with the shorter side of long (440-450)

[@SurpriseMeJT]

Yes this is true, which is also why some titanium bikes would have taller bottom brackets, to shorten the length of the tubes, which sometimes can't be made as stiff. Of course custom brands whose tube selections are greater can make a longer chain stay and lower bb with great stiffness by using 1" diameter titanium tubes. Longer chain stays aren't any slower uphill on the road but they allow much faster and safer descending. They also allow riding in loose terrain better, making a road bike more versatile.

[@robbchastain3036]

GCN has new kit, so maybe, Russ, Dan could send you a jersey in relaxed fit? That'd be a cool alternate look on the trail. And I grin as I am a fan of yours and theirs. And to my knowledge, GCN has never done a vid about the party pace on dirt, so yeah, you and Jeremy explaining everything, dig that.

[@lightracer8632]

My Warakin stays in the 440. Really, I think the feature is silly and I wish it didn’t have the option so I can eliminate the extra bolts that have the potential to become loose on longer trips.

[@johnschulz1142]

Light Racer Its obviously a marketing ploy, but I like the option. I haven’t made the change since I got the bike. Every manufacturer is looking for an edge so don’t be too harsh. Love the Warakin!

[@ronalcasid3844]

Do you need to adjust the rear brake caliper when you change the chain stay?

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

Yes

[@matthewlittler8387]

I just bought a Brodie Elan Vital with a 450mm chainstay length so I guess I like those more.

[@puthiphatm]

GCN reference again, did they do anything to you hahahahaha

[@bike4fish241]

interesting, my 49 cm kona libre has 440 chainstays. its hard to wheelie but so stable and fast on the gravel. but unlike my other bikes i can feel it in spots like sharp switchbacks and tight berms, where i think the shorter chainstay would shine.

[@gregbesaw2604]

You didn’t mention what tire And wheel combo you were running. I own this bike and they offer a middle setting chip also. I have 3 different wheelsets and keep it in the middle setting 650x2.2 700x50 and a faster racing 700x38 set. I would send it all the way back if I were to gravel pack and it could get muddy and all the forward if I was going to do a dry gravel race

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

Always 650b x 48.

[@jakeshannon3826]

it is weird, i feel the exact opposite on the chainstay length on steep/loose climbs... i prefer a shorter rear triangle on steep climbs as your body weight is more centered over the rear wheel and pushes your tire into the ground. that said, the front wants to lift more with the shorter stays, so maybe it is a give and take... all of this said, i have long chainstays and prefer them in most situations.

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

Depends on the bike. Mtbs with short stays but slack HTA puts you over the center. Road bikes with short stays, steep HTA and long stems put you weight forward and unweighted the rear.

[@4bbl4sp2ex]

@@PathLessPedaledTV hey russ, thanks for the reply! how does riding the ritchey outback compare to the salsa vaya? i laid out the frame geometry in cad for the size i ride, and the rear triangle is basically identical, but the head tube is more slack and the stack height is a little lower on the outback. i would think the smaller head tube diameter and more slack angle would make the outback more comfortable possibly? how does it feel speed wise? the vaya is pretty lively by touring standards, but kind of a pig by gravel race bike standards. i was considering looking into an outback after watching reviews, including yours. i bought my first vaya after watching your review a few years ago.

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

4bbl4sp2ex Outback is like a more refined Vaya. Not as overbuilt. Quicker to bring up to speed. Plush. A great all day rider.

[@whirving]

Well since we are talking about chain stays and you mentioned the Ritchey Outback, which bike do you prefer of these two, the Waheela or the Outback? They are both on my short list for a NEW BIKE :)

[@thepandaman]

I'm curious about what causes the perceived acceleration feeling. Is it just due to a difference in stiffness? The only other theory I can think of is if your weight is more over the rear wheel, that the front-end lightens under acceleration, especially on a steep climb...?

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

One theory is stability/instability. For example paddling a short canoe vs a long canoe. Net speed may be the same but how it gets there is different. The longer canoe will have a perceived smoother and straighter path where as the shorter canoe will be more erratic and stacatto.

[@thepandaman]

@@PathLessPedaledTV Ah that's an aspect I hadn't considered!

[@AndrewHiltz]

Russ, I know you've commented on being "not tall" before, but I've seen some taller and/or heavier folks suggesting they like long-chainstay bikes to balance their weight distribution a bit more, and that they feel faster with longer because shorter chainstays feel too twitchy. Thoughts on this based on your geometry and many-bikes experience? I don't have much to compare by (a hybrid and an all-Alu road bike that's semi-aggressive)

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

I can't comment from a tall/larger rider perspective but that makes sense. To some extent wheelbase and geometry should scale with the rider size.

[@jevgeniardassov]

I'd agree. I am myself with my 178 cm allways between sizes and classical (short) chains Tay bikes with M size feel too twitchy and same size different brand with a longer chainstay felt much more stable. Comparing Scott addict gravel and Merida Silex.

[@AndrewHiltz]

​@@PathLessPedaledTV interesting... so many "endurance road bikes" seem to try to go for that 415-420 chainstay range across the size range and while I love my road bike, I'm curious to see what different geo does for me at 6'5.5" and 250lbs. Just need to test ride I guess!

[@salad_gold_rancher]

Jamis Renegade, 435mm on a 61 frame. When you say 430-435 is medium, is that relative to any given size? The model year I have has stay length from 427-435 across sizes 48-61. So, it's more a question of your thought process than it is about nailing down where my bike is in the spectrum. I mean, it's medium. I had a sketchy spill on an icy hill a few years back. Since then, it's been a struggle to become confident on the decent. I've done the Crater Lake Rim Ride twice since then. Once on the Jamis and before that on a carbon Roubaix (there was no surgeon generals warning that I was supporting Specialized lawyers, or I wouldn't have bought it). The Jamis is much more confidence inspiring! I'm not sure I'd want to go long stay, because a little twitch can still be useful.

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

Jamis is an outlier in having scaled chainstays through a size run. Most brands pick a length and use it through all the sizes. While it makes sense, it does mean that every bike through the size run is a different bike and wouldn't have a consistent ride quality. I would still maintain those are generally good ranges for long, med, short for drop bar bikes. It is relative to mountain bikes where those ranges vary as well.

[@salad_gold_rancher]

@@PathLessPedaledTV interesting. I guess from a scale perspective, different stay length makes sense, but from an engineering perspective it raises a question. How do they shorten the chain stay and maintain the wheel size?

[@zbigniewandruszkiewicz7703]

U positive that longer setting gives you better traction on uphill sections? My experience is quite opposite. However, i didn't have a chance to ride same bike with different CS, all i can compare is different bikes.

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

Yes. Also depends a bit on reach and where the bars put you relative to the bottom brakcet. But to simply, generally yes.

[@mellissanash7517]

How does this compare to the Warakin? Did you try the medium was it a good balance?

[@Alex_564]

I take you didn't have the medium(430mm) chainstay option for this?

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

I’ve ridden it in medium. It rides medium.

[@Buck2901]

Was wondering what what the differences, thanks for posting.

[@a234633]

I wish they would make the Marrakesh with 29 + 3 in or 2.8 I have 2013 3 Fargo I love it not a front loader doesn't like to be loaded in front I think the new Fargo's apex have a bit longer chain stay I only like short for riding wheelies and tricks krampus (BMX) with big wheels I can manual real well on the old pugsly

[@tacticalceo685]

Great video Russ how long did it take you to switch it from long to short and I believe the trek checkpoint has that also it be nice if you could test out that bike also thanks for the video and stay safe.

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

About15 minutes doing it slowly so as not to break things

[@jevgeniardassov]

I am somewhat in between with a 430 mm on my Silex, would not want to change it.

[@Jthe5th]

What do you think about the new Surly Disc Trucker, they have just shorted the chain-stays from 46cm to 45cm alongside other changes

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

Still long by most standards but will definitely lessen its yacht like steering.

[@Jthe5th]

@@PathLessPedaledTVyeah, still long, how would you say the handlebars feel? Do the twitch if they fork is not loaded even with those long chainstays? I was thinking about one with cruiser handlebars rather than flat or drop bars.

[@americantroy77]

“we don’t have that GCN money”

[@Jthe5th]

I would even ask the question if the short chain stays is not overhyped as a great feature by companies, why would you need that much control and playfulness with a a gravel bike at the loss of stability and risking not so good tracking on ascends.

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

Because the bike industry is ruled by roadies.

[@wahyu123ish]

Q: does changing the chainstay length also change the overall wheelbase length? thanks

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

Yes

[@ARJWright]

Great content as usual. Question: is comfort of the change also dependent on the size of the rider, or even their trunk (waist to knee) size? In one of the shots were you were talking about your preferences, I wondered what Laura’s opinion would be about the same kind of measurements changes on the similar kind of bike. Just a wonder, it might be a bit more scientific than what is needed, but it came to mind so I thought I would ask. Thanks as always

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

Laura dislikes short wheelbase/chainstay bikes and values stability more so leans toward longer cs.

[@jambonsambo]

Is Chainstay length relative to height of the cyclist ? , like a really long legged person on a short Chainstay bike is going to be so far back on the bike because of a high and far back saddle position, maybe that body style would suit a longer chainstay or wheelbase in general.

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

You would think so but that is not the case. Most bikes don't alter chainstay by size.

[@mrjack8849]

Does the bottom bracket change height or the overall angle of the bike change when you move the chainstay? It looks like the adjustable point is at an angle which could make the bike point up or down more.

[@KurtStafki]

Otso employee here. Bottom bracket height changes by 4mm.

[@toddgrant6133]

Do you need a new set of chains when you change your chainstay from short to long?

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

Sometimes.

[@tonystanley978]

I assume you kept the same chain length and didn't add or remove any links?

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

Yes

[@nirajshr]

Regarding climbing on loose terrain, I find your experience quite the opposite. Theoretically, shorter chainstays put more traction on the rear wheel all else being equal. Given that you did not change any other figures and just switched the chainstays length, you should have had more traction on the rear wheel with shorter section. I definitely feel this on my own bikes where shorter the chainstays easier it is to weight the rear wheel for those loose steep out of saddle climbs. On the other hand, the grip on the front wheel would be the opposite, meaning shorter chainstays giving more traction on front wheel.

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

Why do these work? kzbin.info/www/bejne/enOvY4abpa2Vh9k

[@mikekrasovec6390]

The longer rear end helps keep the front end planted.

[@nirajshr]

@@PathLessPedaledTV Russ, thx for that video link. I did some research and the longer rear end on those hillclimb bike is there mostly to keep the front wheel down on those steep inclines. They dont necessarily increase traction of rear wheel. In fact, it might decrease the traction of rear wheel, but its a good compromise as you dont wanna be doing wheelies on those inclines.

[@sheilastallard]

I love your video's Russ, But I must ask the question....When would you want to change the chain stay length?. KEEP SAFE!

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

Long for more mixed terrain rides and short for racier road rides.

[@simonguard5087]

Russ was that the correct size bike for you because it looked too small?

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

Yes it was the correct size.

[@NoGattsuNoGlory]

What was the length of the short settings? I don't think you mentioned it

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

I did. 420.

[@albertbatfinder5240]

Yeah, he did, right at the start. I missed it too as I guess I expected it when he changed it over.

[@americantroy77]

Can I cash app you payment for a couple stickers? I refuse to put a payment through PayPal..

[@americantroy77]

Trying to support the channel and gets ignored ✌🏼

[@Max-xl3ml]

I've been really curious about extra long chainstays. Rivendell's philosophy on it is interesting but obviously those bikes aren't really available for test rides everywhere. The surly long haul trucker and the Jones LWB are the only substitutes I know of. Combined with a long front center a long chainstay bike has the potential to be the most confident handling rigid off-road machine possible.

[@weldonyoung1013]

If your interested in the Surly Long Haul Trucker or Disc Trucker get one before the new ones get to the market. Surly has just announced the Trucker will have a 45cm chainstay, 10mm shorter. But that is still longish with regard to most available bicycles and the discussion in the video.

[@alexball5907]

I wonder what it would be like in the middle?

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

Middling :)

[@tmayberry7559]

So it's a cx and gravel bike combined.

[@stevegraham3041]

I prefer long so much more comfortable

[@richardradcliffe6047]

👍

[@Niidea1986]

I tend to prefer longer ones... More comfortable

[@JamesRobertMTB]

Short feels so much better for general riding

[@marknorman3907]

A tall rider on a bike with the seatpost extended shifts weight to the rear. A longer chainstay is helpful then.

[@markvonschober6872]

Why not just go medium chain stay and get the best of both worlds

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

You get a watered down feeling of both. It’s sort of meh IMO.

[@kpusa1981uk]

What a short rider say 5 feet 2/3 inches. Say a short chainstay 415 and a and a small crank 132.

[@robappleby583]

I really doubt I would notice any difference. 2 cm? Come on.

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

Bikes are designed in half degree and 5mm increments. It doesn't take a savant to tell the difference.

[@robappleby583]

Path Less Pedaled sure. But there’s a difference between what a pro cyclist might feel and what an everyday cyclist like myself would. I’m sceptical that most people would notice such small differences. I have a variety of bikes and they have quite different geometries, but after I’ve switched between them and ridden them for more than a few days i no longer feel those differences. Anyway maybe you’re just much more attuned than I am. I also think confirmation bias plays a role in our perception of these things.

[@gffriedman]

I can feel the difference, 2 cm is actually a big difference in chain stay length.

[@piltrid1]

I'm just a casual cyclist. For me, geometry changes are most obvious when descending/cornering on-road (with road tyres). On a familiar, fast, twisty, road descent, I'd be surprised if anyone couldn't notice the difference.

[@albertbatfinder5240]

Ellis, I tend to agree. I get on a new bike, or add something like a heavy handlebar bag, or change something elsewhere, and the bike is COMPLETELY different. The next day, I don’t notice at all.