Pratt & Whitney's GTF Engine Problems: US Airlines Could Lose Over $150 Million

[@incediery]

wow I'm certain most of these airlines are kicking themselves for going with popular PW GTF instead of the CMF LEAP-A engines..nearly eight years in service and the GTF continues to be plagued with issues

[@soccerguy2433]

Hindsight bias

[@incediery]

@@soccerguy2433 buyers remorse happens to all of us at some point...don't get me wrong the GTF is a marvel of modern engineering but eight years in service is more than enough time to work out the kinks

[@icare7151]

The current major problem is linked to a metal powder supplier which also affects other jet engine manufacturers.

[@reubenmorris487]

@@icare7151 This problems' affecting GE right now as well...

[@arofhoof]

8 years of service already!

[@neilpickup237]

It is very difficult to compare with the RR Trent issues. I am no expert, however from what I have read, it would appear that the RR issues needed to be identified and fixed by RR. The duration of the problem being due to a degree of uncertainty as to the best way to resolve the issue, resulting in failed, or only partially successful attempts. Wheras, with the P&W engine, this problem appears to be as a result of contaminated raw materials rather than engineering. The issue with P&W being that they are overwhelmed, and even though they know what to do, they just cant fix them in an acceptable time. While the issue with the Trent was bad, and no doubt more the responsibility of RR, the problematic GTF is having a greater impact on the schedules. No doubt exacerbated by the fact that these engines are produced in far higher numbers for the much larger single aisle market. Couple this with the airlines retiring many of their 'older' models during covid, with hindsight prematurely, there simply are not enough aircraft to plug the gaps while the much newer ones are grounded. A perfect storm? It should also be accepted that the Trent issues were at their peak pre-covid, while the GTF is peaking post-covid with the serious supply chain issues still being experienced.

[@ghostrider-be9ek]

Oh boy - as a former PW Overhaul tech - if the disks, blisks and hubs are being made with ADDITIVE manufacturing, and are failing - thats a HUGE fuckup

[@JungleJetAviation06]

Is the engine cheaper or easier to maintain than the CFM Leap 1A? So many airlines are choosing the PW so that’s why I ask. Also, are more airlines gonna look into getting certified to do the engine overhauls themselves like Delta?

[@ChapaLipar]

@@JungleJetAviation06They are almost always cheaper than the LEAP engines. But in this business it’s difficult for an airline to evaluate the quality of the engine they are choosing. With all the marketing bullshit they receive they can’t take a educated decision. As airlines are ruled by financial people, the engine manufacturers create their products to match their needs. In this specific case, they put all their effort on the fuel burn, not the cost of ownership over 10 years or more. Look at the GTF cross section and you can see that it is designed exclusively for fuel efficiency. Maximum bypass ratio at the cost of a gearbox and all components located around the core. To summarize, they build formula 1 engines. Very powerful and efficient, but not lasting very long, and very expensive to maintain.

[@icare7151]

The current major problem is linked to a metal powder supplier which also affects other jet engine manufacturers.

[@harstoft]

It’s a shame because the GTF is exactly where all closed rotor jet engine designs are headed. Slower rotating bigger fans leads to more efficient propulsion. Let’s hope P&W fix these issues and prove it’s a design that works in the long run.

[@iamjesper]

I agree. After all the problem is in the compressor and not the gearbox.

[@rafaelwilks]

We've all been hoping the same thing for almost a decade now with these Dependable Engines 😂 how was the CF34-8 doing in 2012, when it was 8 years in service? Remember any problems? Like, anything anywhere even near the problems of the GTF? 🤨

[@heidirabenau511]

The issues aren't related to the actual gear that spins the fans slower, its been due to dust getting into small holes in the engines.

[@rafaelwilks]

@@heidirabenau511 and many more issues, too - but, yes, the reduction gearbox itself is just fine

[@jeffbenton6183]

​@@rafaelwilksStill has nothing to do with the gearbox. Maybe GE should make one with a gearbox

[@平和-v1z]

Thanks, very insightful!

[@ghostrider-be9ek]

Oh boy - former PW overhaul technician here - if they are using new, additive manufacturing methods (powered metal builds) for Blisks and discs/hubs - and A/Ds asre being banged out left and right - WOW, thats a insta-fail for the engine in terms of world applications

[@liamwood5043]

*American Airlines dances in cfm*

[@LaczPro]

Interesting. I flew last year in an Airbus A321neo with two of those engines. It was the EC-OCC. Nice little plane.

[@Baz987]

Good thing EgyptAir picked the CFM over the PW for their A320Neos

[@Monothefox]

Sounds like a GTFO engine.

[@vladilenkalatschev4915]

Although this engine is rather progressive if I had a choice I would rather prefer a CFM LEAP engine because it’s more simple and reliable

[@bandbigred]

That’s probably why United is taking on 25 NEOs with the Leap engine through lessors

[@heidirabenau511]

*35​@@bandbigred

[@MarceloTrindade1]

I know it would be boring to list all the airlines potentially affected by this problem but you could at least have listed the airplane models in each group (considering the airline have opted for the engine involved in the AD)...

[@Thisoldhiker]

I assume you mean $150 billion, because $150 million is pocket change to any of the big-four US airlines.

[@ZRHTrainspotter]

Just go for CFM LEAP 1A

[@alexb7235]

Is this new AD on top of what was already made public in July 2023?

[@heidirabenau511]

This one superseeds the July 2023 AD.

[@bosnianaviation5531]

8:57 300 days? For two engines?

[@phillm156]

Revolutionary technologies always have teething issues. They resolved the gearbox issues and they will resolve this. The efficiency and sound reduction in this design is cutting edge and being copped by Rolls Royce (Ultra Fan).

[@shauny2285]

P&W was hit by layoffs during the pandemic plus the distraction of merging UTC with Raytheon.

[@mrunning10]

Raytheon was hit with the distraction. P&W did a collective sigh "whew!" "we're rid of that massive liability" as the corporate officers at PW and UTC collect their bonuses and depart. All clear?

[@killerbees177]

It's been a bad year for aviation

[@dennissebastian6059]

way worse. united is dropping rhe pratt for ge

[@fared___3409]

Till today, theres no flight found on that viva aerobus. So its not fixed yet?

[@mrunning10]

Dude, ask in English next time. What the fuck you taking about? You don't know the half of it Dude. (the real inherent design issue(s) haven't revealed (in-air failure) occurred yet)

[@Real_Cheese1]

Cool

[@rafaelwilks]

Dependable Engines 🤣🤣🤣 if you look at data from AeroInside and compare the number of LEAP incidents to the number of GTF incidents, and figure in the accumulated service hours, you'll find out that the LEAP is anywhere between 2, to up to 4, times more reliable than the Geared TurboFailure. To be fair, the fault isn't with the reduction gearbox, which took 2 decades to develop - it really has proven itself to be truly dependable. The problem is with the rest of the engine.

[@Jakesullivan2112]

Airbus is due to get some problems because all attention was directed at Boeing for a while now .

[@Michael_K_Woods]

This directive is nuts. FAA is a disaster.

[@heidirabenau511]

What do you suggest P&W do then?

[@aus-reviews8462]

Im sure aircraft mechanics wont mind haha

[@melbournechugging2999]

Just send your engines to Delta they can fix it

[@bmwlane8834]

I don't how companies weather a cost like this.

[@mrunning10]

Airlines go bankrupt after attempting to switch engines.

[@faranger]

I can beat all those times. I am a jet engine beast 😅 Even the Russians respect my ability with the safety wire 😅 I worked for Pratt 13 years stellar work record according to the Company.

[@christopherescott6787]

Begs the question. Just how much testing did they do on these engines PRIOR to service on wing?

[@harstoft]

You can do a lot of testing. You can also do lots of modelling. However if you find a supplier has given you material not to the specification and you don’t know until after you have built it into the engine, what is an engine builder to do. That supplier will ultimately be footing the bill and P&W will likely be taking their business elsewhere

[@michaelmoses8745]

The short answer is a lot. Out of spec materials and parts that don't get caught shorten the lifespan quite a bit.

[@mikeparkin7262]

What about the airbus A220 which uses the same engines?

[@mrunning10]

Why don't you google and fucking find out?

[@cristiandiaz6333]

One can put lawyers, the police, and union workers in the same bucket. They are all hated, but we all need them. The stock market is about have less union workers because that is the group the cost companies a lot money to employ and they cannot cut corners to accelerate production.

[@icare7151]

PW may go bankrupt as at this point as it really means the entire engine needs to be replaced.

[@eduardodaquiljr9637]

Is the problem can not be solved?

[@mrunning10]

Dude, ask in English.

[@ghostrider-be9ek]

@@mrunning10 no

[@mrunning10]

@@ghostrider-be9ek then GFY

[@ghostrider-be9ek]

@@mrunning10 then grow the fuck up

[@MBNeal]

Indiana prides itself on having well trained and beyond professional police especially the state police. Whit. Co. Is pretty strict as far as enforcement goes. The courts aren't known for being forgiveness either. I'm sure they heard from the state on this. Indiana doesn't like being in the limelight for policing or constitutional issues. I hope that officer separates.

[@KC-gp4mf]

What a fiasco. PW need to get there shite together.

[@mrunning10]

Raytheon you Idjit.

[@ronparrish6666]

pratt and Whitney made great engines Till the GTF came along

[@rafaelwilks]

Well, the PW4000-112's fan blades started disintegrating in flight a few times, and those were designed and manufactured long before the GTF 🤔

[@dennismoro-p2k]

Holy S**t!

[@mrunning10]

You don't know the half of it Dude. (the real inherent design issue(s) haven't revealed (in-air failure) occurred yet)

[@icare7151]

If I were Airbus I would not offer the GTF on future orders.

[@klorevio]

Some airplanes are just designed with one turbine type. Which would mean airbus couldn’t sell them.

[@icare7151]

@@klorevio Airbus has 2 options for the A320 class of aircraft.

[@klorevio]

@@icare7151 i did not track it but your right, i was thinking of the 330 neo/350 xwb which have just a single engine option.

[@CheapBastard1988]

@klorevio The same goes for the A220 and E190-E2. The only option for those is P&W and they haven't been reliable.

[@icare7151]

@@CheapBastard1988 if P&W listened to me they would have never had their problems. It’s all about science.

[@tylerdurden4006]

And yet you guys can't figure out that boieng has the option to buy different engines that don't have problems and don't explode all the time if they spent a little more on safety. More than one company builds and sells engines you know? Quit using such a weak excuse.

[@heidirabenau511]

Trent 1000 on the Boeing 787...

[@mrunning10]

The airlines (and passengers) are essentially testing these engines with the airline supplying the Test Pilots. A PW shit-show.

[@Rsantana380]

i'm shock how airlines still orders the neos with pw crap

[@ElmarLecher]

well, it seem to be slightly more efficient.

[@Rsantana380]

@@ElmarLecher not when you losing money because engine is crap

[@heidirabenau511]

Because by the time the aircraft will be delivered, the problem should be sorted.

[@kamalabrahman6925]

What can you say, made in USA...😅😂😅

[@mrunning10]

Airlines are going bankrupt because of this crap, known and hidden inherent design issues, of this barely certified engine. Raytheon was hit with this unknown engine BEFORE it started to fail with the public as the flying guinea pigs. The corporate officers thinking they'll get their bonuses and leave before the shit hits the fan. P&W did a collective sigh "whew!" "we're rid of that massive liability" as the corporate officers at PW and UTC collected their bonuses and departed. All clear? The FAA and the public doesn't know the half of it. (the real inherent design issue(s) haven't revealed themselves (in-air failures), haven't occurred yet.) Just wait, as the cycles accumulate, the REAL issues will start fucking BLOWING UP.