Loose Maniac SHOVES the River (You Won't Believe What He Has!)

[@BlackRain79Poker]

How do you play vs a maniac? Also, check out my latest video on how much money poker players actually make these days: kzbin.info/www/bejne/moGndYRppZJppMk

[@fundiver198]

I think, this is played fine except for the river call. Poker is certainly also a mind game, and one of the most difficult things is to keep your head cool while playing against bad players like this. This is certainly one of my own issues as well. On the turn I think, a maniac can surely still be betting worse hands for value. However the river card really changed the texture, and now we are in a clear bluff catching spot, which change the whole equation. And as Nathan say, even bad players can make hands, so we need to approach this the same way, we do against any other player. Felix Schneider posted a video about bluff catching, where he suggest the following checklist: A) Are we getting a good price? B) Previous action? C) How many value hands beat us? D) Are there any busted draws? Here we are getting an ok price, but the rest of the check list kind of come out negative. The Villain has shown nothing but strength raising preflop and tripple barreling postflop, and even from a maniac, that means something. There is a ton of value hands, that beat us, even AK and AQ still beat us. And finally there are no busted draws except backdoor spades. The main flopped draw was 87, and it got there. So honestly this should be a fairly easy fold, if no emotions were involved. And I agree with Nathan, this is the most interesting part of the hand. Because why is it, most of us can fold here against a good player, but not against a guy like this? And why is it, that after calling down, it tilts us a lot more to see 72, than to see a hand like 87s, which was also bluffing, and which also got there in the end?

[@pokerandtravel6946]

fundiver198 another excellent comment 👍

[@BlackRain79Poker]

Looking at it again I agree this should be a fairly routine river fold.

[@Gaze73]

It's a good call when you consider the information is very +ev. I'd hapily stack a maniac like that 20 hands later.

[@igor6815]

After player raised first time. reraise would be a much better option. Because it's Very unlikely he had a better hand, but he could have a draw that beat us. So if we reraise he will probably call anyway and if he folds we won a solid pot without any risk. But most likely he wouldn't fold. So this lose could have been avoided.

[@yuriramires6194]

I’m tilted just from watching this

[@BlackRain79Poker]

Haha me too!

[@paulm7875]

Yep me too, enter the tilt monster where Im tempted to play any 2 cards against this player in a vain attempt to win back the money. Much better to just close the table and open up a new one but easier said than done :)

[@nickrhepro88hdgaming55]

I don’t know about anyone else but there is some comedic value to these videos too. I love every single video I’ve watched so far. Great content

[@wischM0B]

I always find these kinda Hands entertaining. Flopped a set a few days ago, so i bet, villain raises and i push allin. He calls with A5s having absolutely nothing, not even a draw of any kind, and is around 1,5% needing a runner runner straight to win, while also avoiding specific suits (i had a flush draw on the turn). I lost and laughed at it for a good 5 minutes lol. No need to go on tilt in 1-2ct games where most people are intoxicated or got some kinda freeroll for their birthday.

[@ActivistVictor]

i had something similar happen, an aggro player bets preflop and i call with 77 in the blind hoping to play poker against them. two others call (which i hadn't planned on, but it happens), but things go great as I flop top set on what I think was a rainbow flop. I check to the preflop raiser, and another player who had called bets pot, a bet which I elect to call since is dry and I don't want to fold out any bluffs or overreps the player has. turn is a jack, i check, and snap his shove, and he tables 85, which just had second pair on the flop, but now has a club draw. take one guess what the river was... really nothing you can do about those spots,except know that next time, and the time after, and most likely the time after that as well, you'll felt them

[@14luey]

This is why i dont like using huds - they can influence your decision in hands especially this one. This is a clear fold on the river, 4 card straight on the board hero is never good here with top pair. Villain has so many sets, two pairs, top pairs and straights that beat us.

[@fundiver198]

The danger lies in over interpreting and over adjusting to reads, be they from our HUD or gathered the good old fashioned way by observing manually, how people play. But that is like saying, we should not drive a car, because its possible to have an accident, if we dont drive well. In this case we have 63 hands, which is enough to give some idea, that this guy is on the looser side, and he is certainly not passive with that fairly small gap between VPIP and PFR and high aggression factor. Even though the latter is still not completely reliable after 63 hands. So in my opinion we can make some small adjustments here like definitely not folding on the turn, which we might consider against someone, who is an 11/9 over the same sample of hands. But if we also called the river because of a read from our HUD, that is taking things to far.

[@thiagosouza8020]

Calling an almost pot sized turn bet is an commitment call when villain have only a half pot river bet behind.. i would have jam the turn cause the board was getting strange with a combo draw threatning ;)

[@hugoprtaka]

I would also jam... Or fold

[@alejandrosantamaria7647]

Thank you man, I am enrolled in your university, watching your videos and reading your emails and I can say that I am improving and understanding my game a lot, you really care about us the noobs

[@BlackRain79Poker]

Fantastic!

[@VaultTecc]

That's why you ship the turn and cash out. No tilt no nothing, and if he hits it even better, now he has a bigger stack!

[@denniss8644]

Great video Nathan. Question: On the turn, do you think there is a difference between shoving or min-raising to try to induce the shove on his end? Making it 1.00 is basically committing him and he's likely to shove there. From a play/psychological perspective, do you think a min-raise works in that spot? As for the OP, why go on tilt? This is where I'm praying to God that this guy doesn't change tables or log off and I put a "special" note next to his player name and just move on to the next hand. You're going to get him in the long run, no need to tilt.

[@thiagosouza8020]

Dennis i realize the min-raise works better psichologicly then shoving cause u give him an option other than fold or call. by pushing u r showing strenght.. min-raising he could think he could beat u pushing his last 42cents in the middle lol after all the essence of a maniac is betting right;;

[@BlackRain79Poker]

Thanks Dennis, I think I would just shove the turn given the stacks.

[@denniss8644]

Yeah, but you *don't* want to show strength. Why would you want him to fold? The min-raise invites him to shove instead of risking him folding.

[@fundiver198]

Dennis S Is he really going to come over the top for 42c into a pot of 2,67 $ and think, he have any sort of fold equity? That sound fairly absurd to me. Also its ok, that he fold, if he have equity in the pot like a flushdraw, pair + gutshot etc. Then we are folding out this equity and taking the pot down. No equity hands like 72 will fold to a 50c raise just as much as they would to a 92c raise. So if we think, he have a lot of complete junk, AND will fire again on the river a lot of the time, the better play is to just call, like Hero did.

[@denniss8644]

You described my point, that's exactly what it means to induce the shove. He will just shrug his shoulders and shove and you snap call. That can be a better move the you shoving and risking him to fold. Guys, remember, it's a meta game. It's not about your actions, its about your opponents reaction. What is the desired reaction from your opponent? What actions do you need to take to create that reaction?

[@pokergeniusordonkey6517]

As nitty as this might sound.... I would consider folding the turn. I'm not worried about occasionally folding the best hand for a super cheap price. I might think something like this: "This maniac, is a maniac and he wont change. He is on my right, I will almost always have position on him. He will likely lose a huge pot to me soon, and this tiny 28 cents that I am surrendering to him, might feed his maniac mind and he will surely do something stupid in a later orbit. What I can never let him do, is put me on tilt, and I don't mind him thinking I'm passive and weak."

[@fundiver198]

I certainly agree with seeing the game on more than just a hand to hand basis, especially against a fun player like this. I would however rather lean the other way and shove the turn, because if he call, and I stack him, then I won all his money, and its job done. This is kind of important, because often times fun players dont stay long at a table, and/or dont reload, if they get stacked. So its a race to get their money, before someone else bust them, or their girlfriend ask them to come eat or go to the party or whatever else, people do in their real life. If he fold, then I won a nice chunk of his money. Its job half done, and he might go on tilts and do something silly in the next few hands, which allow me to win the rest of it. Finally if he stack me, now he is probably enjoying the table, so he is more likely to stay, which give me a decent chance to win the money back later. The latter is kind of the same point, you make, and why you dont mind losing a small pot to a bad player. I do think however, the time issue is equally important. I have seen plenty of bad players, who did not even last a full orbit, before someone busted them.

[@pokergeniusordonkey6517]

I agree. I think that turn play here is raise or fold. The call feels like there are too many ways to lose.

[@fundiver198]

Poker Genius Or Donkey I do think, calling the turn is +EV and therefore superior to folding. But I think, shoving is more +EV, AND it protect you from making costly mistakes on the river. With a board this wet, almost half the stack in the middle already and a made hand, you dont mind stacking off, it is typically a good time to just pile it in and be done with it.

[@lozgod]

I’m so ****ing mad at villain right now.

[@fundiver198]

Just briefly looked at this hand again, and if it was a nit or TAG isolating, I would be totally on board with just flatting and trying to get the limper involved. But against a maniac, I feel, we are just feeding into, what he is trying to do, and an outcome like this is going to be fairly tilting. So in this spot I would rather forget the limper and get after the maniac with a big chunky 3-bet preflop for value, especially since he did not even start with a full stack. If he 4-bets me, its all going in before the flop, and if he happen to have a premium hand this one time, good for him. More often though he will just flat, and on a board like this the money is in no later than the turn. Which mean I dont even see the river this way. In my experience maniacs will make huge mistakes, if you take the control away from them.

[@Dariusknight]

Weird hand, I think in this spot preflop I'd 3bet myself, it's close enough to my normal 3bet/4bet range that I can go either way with it. That said, as played I shove turn, too many potential draws and if he does have a hand like AK/AQ/2p/set/combo draw at least I have some equity because I'd definitely be folding river. The 72o wouldn't be tilting me, I'd be laughing at how lucky the villain is and would hope he'd do it again when I have the nuts. This hand is the perfect example of variance, how sometimes even if you play it perfectly, bad players hit their miracle cards once in a while and you need to keep that emotional distance or you'll just bleed money.

[@fundiver198]

I prefer a flat preflop for the same reasons, Nathan explain. Keep the limper in and use our position postflop to play better than both of them with a hand, that can certainly do well enough in a 3-way pot. I also lean towards shoving the turn. It makes our decision process simpler by saving the headache on the river. And there are a fair amount of bad cards, that can come, that will make the river awkward. Any 2, and 4, any 7, any spade...…. The only reason to not shove is, if he is the kind of guy, who has to put it in himself, if he has a worse ace. Its a disaster to shove turn, if he then fold A9 or A8.

[@Dariusknight]

It's close for me, I certainly lean more towards flatting, but that makes the hand more awkward 3 way because it opens it up to someone calling with a small pocket pair and hitting a set and someone else coming along with a big draw and hitting that or hitting a weird 2pair. I just prefer a 3bet because it allows me to have control of the pot. But as played other than shoving the turn I agree with everything Hero did (except for tilting at what he had).

[@fundiver198]

As for preflop I would look at, who the players in the blinds are. If there are 1 or 2 calling stations in the blinds, this pushes it towards a 3-bet, because if we go 4-way or 5-way to the flop, things start to get a bit awkward, and AJs start to perform less well IMO. However if the players in the blinds are regs, who will fold a lot, I like the 3-way pot in position. Sure AJs have some reverse implied odds, but we are dominating a ton of both players ranges as well, and I expect, that both of them are able to take single pair hands way to far.

[@hornetguy9063]

Food for thought: if we are flatting preflop, it better be for a good reason. Like if we don’t connect with the board, maniac with the 72o gets to win no matter what he has. I’d much rather they just fold. Or pay more to play their stupid 72o

[@Maverick-xs6ui]

Sorry to answer the question like I said I would have definately shoved on turn . When villain shoved on river normally in this situation I wpould just fold and go on to the next hand.

[@HomeStudioBasics]

This is exactly why you jam the turn and that's not results-oriented. We're simply ahead a lot of the time still. Yes, we can be beat sometimes too, but I'd rather not put myself in a weird river gross spot where I kind of have to call + with his stats? Yeah, don't care. Jamming. Calling on the turn is kind of bleh IMO because there are a lot of river cards we don't want to see and it puts us in the exact spot we're in as played. So if you're calling that turn, I don't understand folding the river. Seems kind of meh. JAM turn and be okay about it against a maniac like this. That said, I like the way hero played it pf and on the flop.

[@davenutt749]

This is someone at the lowest stakes having fun when getting the worst hand possible and seeing how many people they can push off their hand for jokes. And then they didn't need to push anyone off it because they hit. That's a river fold for me

[@chrismcnally1058]

Happens a lot... Had QJs called raise.. flopped straight KT9. Villain raised flop huge I came over the top all in he called with AJ and of course he hit the 3 outer Q for the better straight... Ugh... Why can't I get guys to fold their gut shot straight draws? hahahah

[@ciarangallagher9330]

"If he has a 7 or a 2 we're losing" "I got both bitch!" Definitely would've folded there

[@bloodkillpoker6635]

the players are solid. he put his money in big on the river after he hit the straight

[@paulm7875]

More horrific than The Exorcist! I think against maniacs it's best to pressurise them immediately on hitting a decent flop so rather than just calling the 20c I would raise it up to 50 or 60c. Same again on the turn. In essence make it really expensive for these guys to even get to the river.

[@Maverick-xs6ui]

Lots of fish I play would have called a preflop 3x raise. I would have then raised half pot on flop then pushed all in on turn . The hero was just unlucky but that's what you also get at the micros by not being aggressive preflop. I don't like calling too much. On sky poker , I only call 5% of the time at 2/4 6 max from my action stats. I fold preflop around 76% of the time, so when I do get my top20% or so hands I always raise 3x bb at this level. If I have AJs I want to try building a pot with at best 1 or 2 callers who I know I can value bet if I hit a good flop. I do not like having to play this hand with, like...4 or 5 villains which is why I mostly raise pre flop 95%of theme leaving the other 5%call when I check the BB if it is called behind me .Raising 3x preflop for me gives me confidence I won't get called with raggedly hands like this. It doesn't always stop them either. I'm not saying this is the right play. It's just what I have learnt and do. And I do make profit . Don't you hate those rivers? Hehe I piss myself laughing and insta load up and make a nice blue circle with a text saying FISH😝

[@mixalisxalaris9673]

u have to think adout that on the tern what u going to do on the river

[@trillian1964]

This is one of these hands, that lead to "It must be rigged." Who with at least a minimum amount of sanity would raise this hand without knowing the coming board?

[@fundiver198]

The 72 game is known from TV poker. He was just looking to have some fun for his 2 bucks, and he got full entertainment value this time.

[@trillian1964]

Yes, you might be right. I didn't want to join the It's-rigged-choir but just try to explain, how these thoughts can emerge.

[@lukasreichelt34]

Seing the Hand i would have actually Put him on smt. like 77, 88, 99. The Kind of hands where a Fish doesn’t believe that there opponent has an ace in this Spot 😁

[@franciszarbadami5051]

i do watch quite a few of your videos and generally agree with your dissection of the hands, yet in this case i must admit that i believe the turn was played really badly. The turn was either a fold or a shove. Basically if you decide you think you are good on the turn then you want to get all the money in while you are ahead since your opponent has put in too much money to fold a draw now so get all your money in and dont let your opponent hit free cards. I cant understand why you would just call if you believe you are ahead on the turn, and if you dont think you are ahead then you should just fold. To be honest i also like to play aggressively since i would rather force my opponents to make mistakes. Also the river call is really dumb because all you can beat is A8, A9.AT which are the only possible hands that are betting for value that you beat. I really have to say that i really disagree with the way you thought out the hand since you basically made wide assumptions about your opponent based on a small sample and then you didnt really go with your read and you basically let the game tilt you because it forced you into making a call you knew was no good. I am a firm believer that tilt usually comes from bad play not bad luck. With that player type the move is to go all in on the turn, i find winning hands with no showdown to be best way to win because your opponents dont learn much about the way you play. Sorry for the long post but i honestly really disagreed with you on this one. By the way my win rate over 45,000 hands at NL2 is 42bb/100 and at NL5 my win rate is 53bb/100 over 22,000 hands.

[@doniyordjalilov9885]

I would have pushed on turn.

[@BlackRain79Poker]

Ya the more that I think about this hand I like that line the best as well.

[@Dark_Angel555]

72 will not always call there ... sometimes maniacs fold too ... also maniacs fold 72 against a 3bet too PF sometimes.

[@jasonmodar508]

I'll push the turn and pray to God he calls me with 72o on that board. Yeah he'd have sucked out but for goodness sake you have an ultra fish on your immediate right. I'd go scream in a pillow for about 30 seconds, sit back down and pray he never leaves my table.

[@Dark_Angel555]

@Jason Modar maniacs get bored the fastest compared to all types of players and they usually leave as soon as they start "sensing" they are not lucky anymore .... so many times I have seen that happen at my table. As long as they keep getting lucky they usually stay .. as long as they start sensing something is wrong they leave and go for another table ... and sometimes when they enter tilt they will keep recharging and lose stack after stack until they are bored or have nothing left.

[@pokerandtravel6946]

fundiver198 the comments are results oriented

[@kwii22789]

Are you still a pro poker player?

[@caldepen372]

If I was playing this joker he would inevitably show a set...

[@johnedgecomb3426]

wow!!

[@1vicjustice]

7Deuce! Called it from the start! Shocking.

[@bloodkillpoker6635]

hero should have shoved the turn

[@BadMoe99]

Think you make your best coments ever, in this video, "I think they are on drugs". It is so true!!! 5555

[@BlackRain79Poker]

Haha thanks :)

[@Mihail4444]

7/2 offsuit xD

[@mstPredator]

muhahahahahah

[@dWn2T]

*ONLINE POKER IS RIGGED...*