Very Loose Player Raises the Turn (THIS is What You Should Do)

[@BlackRain79Poker]

How do you play versus a turn raise? Also, check out my latest video with the simple strategy I use to make $100 a day playing poker: kzbin.info/www/bejne/m4CudJp3qp6cgbs

[@CARNA6E]

Respecting the turn raise of this player type and being aware on the river is crucial, unfortunately it took me awhile to understand this on my own. Nathan preaching, this is a very insightful hand indeed.

[@BlackRain79Poker]

I think it takes most people a long time to learn this lesson. It is very easy to see top pair top kicker or an overpair and think it is unbeatable.

[@gabrielboily2641]

Once in NL2 I had AJs in position so I raise 3x the BB everybody folds except the player on my right. Flop is J63 rainbow. TPTK so I Cbet the flop for roughly half the pot and I get raised all-in. Difficult spot but I had 75 hands on the player and he did not once pull that move yet or be in anyway aggressive. I folded because he had a VPIP of 50, PFR of 5 and an AF of 1. So I think I saved myself some money with a disciplined fold by taking my time and not clicking right away.

[@dunner079]

This was a really good video and something that should be more emphasised in poker coaching videos.....the art of folding. It's something a lot of coaches tip on but don't emphasise. Here is a classic tough spot that a lot of serious minded amateurs get slammed on. They hit the flop and turn hard but drown on the river. If you do more videos like this your gonna be a Godsend. Great video and probably the best this month I'm gonna watch! Loved it!

[@KC-qi8sm]

Thank you very much for reviewing my hand! Just started playing cashgames about 2-3 months so Im stil a fish! This helpen alot Thanks .

[@BlackRain79Poker]

No problem KC, glad I could help! :)

[@paulwevers2109]

It has been a year since then! How is it going for you on the tables?

[@conorm2524]

A few years now, are you on high roller stakes tv shows yet?

[@gabeyo5071]

I know kc. It did not end well.

[@conorm2524]

@@gabeyo5071 Did he die?

[@samuelmicho]

Imo if u know that youll call a river jam even if it bricks.. Hero would be better jamming the turn instead. Cuz at least hed still have outs vs 2 pair / sets hands. If hes not already ahead. ( like pair + flush draw or pair plus gut shot straight draw )

[@CreditBreakThroughSystem]

I agree with your decision. At the micros, if I'm getting check-raised on the turn, then I'm only continuing with 2 pair+. But this guy check-raised so small that I'd call. On river, I'd check fold if I called.

[@BlackRain79Poker]

I agree, when they check/raise for the minimum AND we have the nut flush draw still, I can't fold.

[@nicks210684]

Folding to a min check raise would be a mistake on the turn. With outs to trips, better two pair and flush you have direct odds to make the call plus implied odds if you do hit your hand.

[@alland5771]

What if villain 3bets all-in on the turn? That’s a fold for hero too right? Or is that too nitty?

[@elmariaci7637]

Alland I'd go all-in in this case, hopping to get a flush on the river or win with my top pair but I'm not sure that's a right decision...

[@Dariusknight]

You still have one card to improve to the nut flush/higher 2pair/trips and you only have to be right about 22 percent of the time, in this case it's a clear call. Especially when the villain is 90 VPIP and is playing any random hand.

[@fundiver198]

Its not that clear a call. Hero would be calling 2,84 to win a pot of 4,76, so he need to win it 37,3% of the time. If Villains range is all possible two pair and sets, Hero has 32,1% equity, so against that kind of range, its actually a fold even with his many outs. However I would still call, because it is so relatively close, so if you can add just a bit of something else to Villains range, Hero is good to go.

[@BlackRain79Poker]

That would be a gross spot. Truly gross, I don't know :/

[@dimitrismaster]

yeah i agree with Nathan,most of the times a station fish will raise with 2p or better.They loose money when their dream come true and smash the board and not get paid off.Most of the times they obviously miss or make a weak hand and get stacked.Hey the should win sometimes in order to play again..

[@FawltyFelix]

I think the main thing I see here is the sizing. I agree that if we know this guy is playing almost 100% of hands we should open bigger. Once that flop comes out we should be picking a sizing plan that will get us all in by the river should we hit. 1/2 pot flop, 1/2 pot turn doesn't get it done comfortably. We end up with a more than pot size jam on the river(assuming villain didn't raise). Trick I use is if you subtract the pot from the effective stack and divide by 10 you have a good flop bet size that can get you all in by river. So in this case it would be $3.55-0.50/10 which is around $0.31 or on the turn you can subtract the pot from effective stack and divide by 3. What this basically does is leaves you with a near pot size bet left on river. So turn would be 3.31-.98/3 to give you ~0.80. 1.60+.98= 2.58 pot going to river and Villain 4 would have a stack of 3.31-.80=2.51. So you basically have a perfect pot size bet for the river. A good size for both bluffs and value, even though I doubt I would be bluffing a guy like this very often, on the river. Reason I bring this up is, if you bet slightly bigger pre, then bigger on flop, then bigger on turn, more than likely his only option for raising turn would be to go all in and you would be getting odds to call which just makes your decision tree so much simpler. So lets say we do .20 pre, so we have pot of .65 on flop instead of .50 and effective stack is 3.5, then we bet .40 on flop and he calls, now he has 3.10 and pot is 1.45. Now we bet 1.00 or slightly more on turn. The pot to him on turn is going to be around 2.50 and he only has 3.10. Sure he can min raise but he more than likely just jam and we will call getting about 3 to 1 at that point. Outcome in this exact hand will be the same, but decisions are much easier. Rather than trying to figure out on river if this guy is an aggro fish or not and is he capable of doing this with a bluff or worse hand, blah blah blah. Just never folding TPTK + FD on turn to a less than pot size raise. I do agree with Nathan in that I don't think we are ever ahead of his value hands on the river. If this guy is your typical loose passive fish then it is probably a fold as played. I just think I don't end up on the river with this decision. I also think pot geometry is super important and something you should be thinking about early on in the hand, especially versus fish. Its something a lot of us micro stakes players aren't paying close enough attention to. Its something Nathan said early in the vid too. Most fish don't care about sizing. If they have some draw or some hand that they "like" its not going to make that much of a difference to them if you bet .50 on turn or .80. Cool hand

[@fundiver198]

Completely agree with everything.

[@fundiver198]

Heros bet sizing definitly need to be bigger. At least 2/3 pot and with a huge whale in the pot even larger sizes are also fine. The only times, half pot is good, is in the late stage of tournaments, where ICM is a huge factor, and on dry boards against tight opponents. On the turn, I am not sure, the Villains range is quite as strong as Nathan assume. Sure it can be 2 pair or a set, and often times it will be, but especially when Hero bet so small, I also think, it can be something silly like KT, which think it is raising for value, or pocket 9`s, which are kind of blocker raising, because they dont want to face a larger bet on the river. If you think, there is enough of that sort of nonsense in Villains range, and that he will also sometimes call it off, then it can be ok to just close your eyes and jam it in on the turn. But if not you need to treat your hand like a draw. If you improve on the river, you jam it all in (donk bet), but if not, you have to check-fold. You can not profitably call a river jam with 1 pair against a passive fish. Maybe he is messing around on the turn sometimes, but when he jam the river, its not KT, and its not a missed draw. I dont blame Hero for calling it off, because I also make the same kind of mistake sometimes. But it is a mistake nonetheless, and to improve our winrate at the micros, we need to learn to fold in spots like this.

[@BlackRain79Poker]

I would like to see bigger bet sizings postflop also in a spot like this. Huge whales like this are gonna call regardless, and most of the time we are way ahead.

[@jeremymarechal5249]

Hard to say as we can only see one hand, we don't know how this guy has been acting at the table before, we don't have the PFR...But I've been a lot of time in almost the exact same spot where the fish had a very weak king or even ace high. He either thinks 'OMG there is a king on the board and I do have a king so there is no way I'm loosing this hand with K2o", or he levels himself into thinking you have nothing yourself, for some reasons, and he'll be able to bluff you by shoving with nothing on the river. But I would also agree we should have folded the river depending on how we've been reading the guy previously. Bottom line I think in this particular situation we do not have enough information about the player to clearly see if a call was that bad.

[@BlackRain79Poker]

Good points.

[@joeregan63]

Spots like this perfectly highlight GTO v exploitative poker. A game theoretic approach to the turn and river would be "I have a strong hand with nut outs. This guy plays 90% of hands. If I play this to showdown 100%, he'll never be able to beat me in the long run" That's fine. That's true. Bet/calldown is going to be +EV for sure. But from an exploitative sense? Who cares if he has 90% of starting hands? Fire it all off. You can't define his range by his preflop and flop play. You can define it by the turn; and that play says "I have a strong hand". You don't need gobs of history against guys, you know how 90 VPIP dudes play. It's bingo. So when they tell you they hit bingo, believe them. (note this analysis is way different than the one against the reg in the 33 hand. There I said don't worry about making a death read, just understand you're near the top of your range and just have to give him the money. Here, not giving the fish the half buy in is huge for your WR).

[@BlackRain79Poker]

Good points Joe!

[@gabrielboily2641]

Usually if they raise like that I put them on two pair or better and if I don’t have at least a strong draw like hero had here I’m folding a lot more than I’m calling.

[@movieguy7398]

If you are going to call off on the river you might as well bomb turn.

[@DerEchteAndrej]

This exactly is still my biggest weakness at hese stakes. Many times I saw a busted draw of something like that after his bet on the river, but even more often they show the nuts. I hate my life folding here but most of the times you have to

[@chemstudent4826]

The big bet on the turn points more towards a made hand than a draw

[@paulm7875]

Nathan do you play this differently against a LAG? This is such a difficult spot but that reraise from a loose/ passive player screams strength and on a good day I can usually find the fold button. Against a loose aggressive player who's been giving me a hard time all night its a different story. I'm committed once I hit top pair on the flop and losing my whole stack.

[@BlackRain79Poker]

Ya versus a LAG I will play this different. Same preflop but more inclined to call down postflop.

[@OleguitoSwagbucks]

easy bet-call / check-fold

[@TheGroundedCoffee]

Fish always get me with their trash 2 pair or their miracle

[@BlackRain79Poker]

Me too :/

[@fundiver198]

Maybe it feel that way, because we dont see, when they have J5 and call preflop, call flop, call turn but finally fold river.

[@trace9766]

I'm totally guilty of over playing my top pair, top kicker. So often they raise my bet and I say to myself... He's got a set... but I just can't let it go! :(

[@thawk2007]

The straight and flush draw missed and we have top pair top kicker. And the river favors a check fold. Not sure I understand that, seems like we’d be folding a lot of hands. I think the river is either a check call, or maybe bet all your value with a 1/3 pot bet and fold to a shove.

[@truetrue2963]

i agree i think if your folding this river your folding way way to much, rarely ever are you really going to run into 2 pair on this runout besides some KJ and u block that. obv he could have a set but i think he would have raised the flop if he had it. although i mix in some suited 1 gappers from lp so the str8 is possible for a decent player.

[@donkilluminati9984]

but important thing here is that PASSIVE FISH raise us on the turn . Its always strong range with 2 pairs or better

[@thawk2007]

I get it, but in practice, I find it really difficult to label people that accurately. It was mentioned that we only had 40 hands the on the person and there is no information on how aggressive he was. So how to you label a turn raise from this person and how much weight do you put into that. If you can see preflop 40 hands, and plays 90%, that is 36 hands that see the flop, but maybe 5-10 hands to the turn, or more, there is no info. It's very easy to label people after the hand is done. Without a really really solid read (1000's of hands) its probably best to play good solid poker and ranges. In my opinion.

[@truetrue2963]

i couldnt agree more, but people always have to drool over their hud stats and ignore common sense. i agree they are useful but tbh every single one of the most recent videos have been based off of hud stats and not play.

[@fundiver198]

The only thing, we cant do here, is call the river unimproved. At the end of the day that is a bluff catching situation, since almost noone is showing the river for value with a worse hand. And the one thing, we should typically not do against fish, is to bluff catch in huge pots. If we think, there is a good chance, he is goofing around on the turn with his min-raise, the correct play is to pile it in on the turn. In that way we can either fold out his equity or get him to call it off behind, and if we are behind, at least we have decent equity.

[@zizhdizzabagus456]

well according to his vpip tricky fish plays every hand but good

[@mikhailzhitnikov3715]

Funny thing if he bets more preflop 4-5 BB and bet 85-90% of bank on turn then it would be a harder decision on river. Because pot odds will be very attractive )

[@Dimkee100]

As the vid was going i indeed was thinking this guy hitted his double pair.... K6 KJ or J4, a raise on turn from a fish is never good news i think. They can't play creatively unless they got it mostly i think. Thx for the vid!

[@paulwevers2109]

I just recently have taken the game more serious and have become a winning player so far. Since me taking this more serious. I was a loosing player for years. I thought i was playing good but i really was not. Playing way to many hands. Paying of way to much on draws, even gutshots. Sometimes i made my hand and doubled up and forgot the ones i loosed. If it was suited i would call raises out of position and fold when nothing hitted and called with second or top pair weak ass kickers down the river and always call call call. I was terrible. Now i play serious, pay attention to types of players. Using a hud. I watch these kind of video`s. Can not thank you and others enough for making these. Its a free poker coach! I play tight aggressive and play position. I can now call people and understanding their ranges and behaviour pre and post flop. I seem to be able to read them fairly good now. I struggle with getting the most value out of my winners i think. But i can make folds like this. I watch your video`s here and im sure you will not read this after this being posted over a year ago but if you do, you and other youtube poker coaches so to say have made me better player online! F*cking thanks for that. I am not there yet.....i will never be there....thats my mantra now. Until i wake up one day playing big stakes and confident in my game as well. One can only dream and work at that.

[@BlackRain79Poker]

Nice work Paul, keep it up in 2020!

[@joehughes6302]

Yeah fish don't tend to have a balanced turn re-raise range. They still get me sometimes tho. Can't win if you fold ;)

[@BlackRain79Poker]

I can't fold the turn either. The river maybe though.

[@lozgod]

90% lol. Rec player played the s*** out of that turn tho.

[@paulwevers2109]

On this hand we do not have the history of that 90% played hands. Not the amount of folds on the flop when he missed. There are a lot of these preflop callers that lay down their hand to a cbet when they missed.

[@chemstudent4826]

I put him on two pair! It’s a clear fold on the river

[@begunmos]

Hero bet sizing on the flop and on the turn is too small. I'd prefer 70-75% of the pot size. If opponent moves all in or makes overbet on the river (or on the turn) I usually check his stat WWSF (won when saw the flop). If WWSF = 39-40% then in most cases he has monster or very strong hand and FOLD is the best decision. If WWSF = 60% or higher then this guy like to bluff very often. Micro stakes players in most cases don't like to bluff on the river (and on the turn).

[@nat2r]

"of course, duh!" Hahaha.

[@jr9655]

I don't think that I could have folded there as well

[@tolkien11]

I aint no bitch. I aint folding my top pair top kicker... Nope just kidding :) This is a good exploatative adjustment.

[@williamwallace3848]

Buluga's Theorem.

[@MrBlack-wt5er]

If you raise like that and I'm the small blind if my Jack 4 is suited I'd call you and then the big blind will call you making the hand worth it.....