Avoid This PREFLOP Bet Sizing MISTAKE

[@BlackRain79Poker]

What preflop bet sizing do you use? Also, check out my latest video on the simple bluffing strategy that has skyrocketed my results lately: kzbin.info/www/bejne/hXvceYSCgt10ibs

[@BlackRain79Poker]

Thanks for supporting my work so much! I do have a video course in the works for 2019 which will cover NL10 and NL25

[@postlezone-god5173]

Oh man, that 0.2 cents flop bet in a multiway pot vs 4players was gangster...

[@jaecubed592]

I give you massive props for even trying to make sense of this hand. Love that you were at a loss for words.

[@CARNA6E]

NL2 tables are HOT, guy with A8 never folding to a sizable 3bet and stacks off flushdraw on the flop, and button will most likely call his 77, printing money with QQ here

[@terencehill3972]

Ironicallly, hero has saved himself quite some money. Had he raised bigger preF, villain 77 and villain A8s for sure would have called. On the flop, hero would have made a big cBet and both would have called, "OMFG I has 77 and a gutshot!", "LOL I has the nut flash draw!!"...

[@ekw555]

on the bright side: hero only lost 10 cents!

[@BlackRain79Poker]

Haha there is always a bright side! :)

[@ekw555]

@@BlackRain79Poker well, he could have really compounded his mistakes by calling that big flop raise, or worse still shoving over it.

[@paulwevers2109]

Please give the hero some respect. Even after the fact he played this like a scared money fish , he emailed the hand to ask for help. So he is trying to improve his game i guess. My tip for the hero is that he first starts playing full ring nl2 tight with the advices given here. If you play your hands , uhmmm, improper? , and your learning then 6 max will give you to many hands and situations to deal with then when your playing full ring. 6 max your range should be wider and what i see here is scared money. I could be wrong ofc. Please correct me if so. GL Hero on your quest.

[@ChannelJoeE]

Hi Nathan. Cool analysis on the vide. But, do you think playing those QQs "correctly" would've made any difference at all at 1c/2c against the 70% VPIP fish? I mostly play tournaments and mostly live at that. I only play micro cash games online for a few hours before going to sleep every now and then. It is just a stress-free pastime for me. As you know, the games are very soft. At the same time, insanely bizarre. Despite it costing real money, it almost plays like a play money on any number of poker apps where you are relatively "conservative" if you have VPIP of 70. And I found, at micros, almost nobody is ever folding suited Ax to a 4x 3-bet. And they will chase flush and open ended straights even if it costs them their entire buy-in. I know the lesson here is learning to play "correct" poker for the long run. But, I think the 77s are almost never folding to a 4x 3-bet in 1c/2c. And that call would've given Villain 8 the "right odds" to call, creating 63c pot. Even if the hero jammed for the remaining $2.86 post-flop, on that board, I think he's getting called by both 77s (who has an over pair + gut shot) and A8 (who has the nut flush draw). Or is this a result-oriented thinking? I don't know. I've just seen so much bizarre lines on micros, I don't know what to think anymore. :D

[@BlackRain79Poker]

Thanks Joe, I am a math and process based player so I don't worry about short run stuff.

[@connman8d617]

In this case, if the Hero had played the QQ correctly he almost certainly loses a big pot. A proper pre-flop 3-bet there is going to be something around 20. The 77 is going to set mine him every day of the week and twice on sunday and the 70vpip fish is not folding his suited ace. So the pot would end up being something like 63. Assuming that Villain 8 still opts to lead for 2 into a pot of 63, the hero should ignore that bet and go for a raise to around 50. If hero had done this I am not sure that 77 raises; however, with an overpair and a gutshot draw I don't think he folds. This is where things get interesting. As played, Villain 8 opted to 4bet post flop, so I would have to imagine he would do the same after watching the Hero 3-bet and Villain 5 flat call. As played, Villain 8 min 4-bet the flop. If we assume he would have done the same here, I think the hero is forced to call (min 4-bet would be 98 which would be giving the hero 4-1). Villain 5 would then be getting 5-1 on a call and I think they would have to come along as well. So the pot would now be 357 and none of the remaining 3 players would have even a pot sized bet left in their stack. First to act turned a flush and would likely just jam. Hero would then fold. So, as played, hero lost 10. Should have lost something like 108. That's just the nature of poker; you can do everything wrong and still win, you can do everything right and still lose. At the end of the day that's what keeps the fish coming back and, for that, we should all be thankful.

[@seanknowles9985]

Where's the book? Looked in the description, couldn't find it...

[@Dark_Angel555]

The fish has PFR = 4 but yet he min raise open with A8s from first position... it's situations like this that makes me think if I should take his PFR seriously... cause 4 is pretty low and you usually expect something more solid.

[@fundiver198]

Sample size could be very small, but its also my experience, that fish sometimes start mini-raising hands, they have limped before, maybe in an attempt to not get isolated. Who knows, why they do, what they do, maybe sometimes they dont even know LOL.

[@BlackRain79Poker]

It's because fish don't think about the game logically. They will often limp a hand like AK and then raise A8s the very next hand. Makes no sense at all, but that is how they think.

[@connman8d617]

I was confused by this as well. I gave villain 8 credit for a real hand when they raised from UTG with a 4 pfr. It's not uncommon for the UTG player to put in a smaller raise because just raising from that position conveys so much strength. Was shocked to see A8s as that's just not strong enough. Nonetheless, something tells me the Hero was the biggest fish at the table. Making 3 mistakes (min reraising preflop, flat calling the min 4 bet preflop, folding a massive overpair on the flop) in one hand without even making it to the turn is pretty unforgivable.

[@phillipholmes5206]

This betsizing thing I find difficult. Either I raise big and everybody folds, soit appears that I amnot realising my full equity or, everybody calls, the flop comes 536 and someone turns upwith 74 and ruins me with the straight. How do you gauge/balance your range so that yourealise your full equity, and avoid going broke in these bets.

[@tobiaskarl4939]

raise 10 BB and all folds ... or very often I have AA,KK, QQ AK and all folds suspiciously whatever I do ...

[@IanWheldale]

OMG, these hands get crazier video by video. Firstly, which may be a shock to some, you are less than 50% to win a hand holding AA against 4 other players. Obviously, QQ is even a bit worse. OK, to misclick first time is something anyone can do, but to be given a massive get out of jail free card when it comes back to you and blow it is just criminal, sorry. One of my biggest sources of happiness in poker is to see someone play "cute" by calling or min raising only to get bitten in the ass by a hand of mine I would have folded to a proper raise.

[@BlackRain79Poker]

Hehe I agree with your "get out of jail free card" analogy here. Definitely have to use that, never get cute at NL2.

[@fundiver198]

Its actually even worse to get cute with QQ than AA in a multiway situation like this, since the hand need quite a bit of protection. Half the time QQ is looking at 1 or 2 overcards on the flop, and multiway that mean, the hand is just dead.

[@IanWheldale]

@@fundiver198 Then we agree.

[@fundiver198]

@Ian Wheldale It is actually only 40% of the time, but the point remains the same. You dont want to allow someone with random crap like A4 or K8 a chance to get there almost for free.

[@IanWheldale]

@@fundiver198 When I was at school 40 was less than 50. I saw little point in doing the math to make my point.

[@Maverick-xs6ui]

I bet preflop either 3 or 4 x bb with 20 percent range of hands so to disguise my hand a little bit more. With I find overbetting works quite a bit as I'm guessing that is how they play when they are normally bluffing. To them I'm hoping to send a signal that "this guys overbetting must be a bluff" kinda thing. It doesn't always work but enough for me to have that in my poker arsenal. Thanks for video. I see this every day on my site. Then the chat starts when QQ GUY for instance goes insane . He can't believe he lost QQ IN A MULTI POT LOL. he priced them in so.....

[@zyzz8707]

Was the second mistake a misclick too 🤣🤣

[@pavliga]

Fish with QQ

[@Sportshunterru]

I expect hero is fish ))) Too passive preflop game )))

[@radoslavstanev9019]

Hi dude can I have the HUD on my phone because my phone have android?

[@fundiver198]

This is a hilarious hand. The first mistake is one, I also make sometimes. It happen, when I multitable, and maybe I am a bit tired or distracted from action at other tables. I look down at a hand, I want to open, and only after clicking my usual 3 BB button do I realize, that oh crap someone has already mini-raised or maybe limped into the pot. LOL. This is, what it is, but not 5-betting, when someone reopen the betting with a silly click-it-back to 8 cents, is a huge mistake. That guy even started the hand with only 50 BB, so if he can manage to show up with aces or kings in a 6-handed game, and play it like this, then god bless him. Its just a cooler, and if we lose, we just reload. As played I guess, its ok to get out on the flop. There are so many hands, that can have us beat now, and often that fish-bet then mini 3-bet line is actually a very strong hand. This was probably the bottom of his range, and even then we are only only slightly ahead. Plus the guy, who made it 30c, is still left to act behind, and he could have anything except maybe KK or AA. Yeah we had him beat this time, but if we come over the top and jam, which is really the only alternative other than folding, he will likely only give us action, when we are behind, or he has a huge draw. Then we could be the one making it 30c, but with so many players, relatively deep stacks against most of them, and a very connected flop, I am not excited about the whole situation. If we bet the flop and get action, are we really happy about it? And are we going to like very many turn cards, given that a lot of them either put out overcards, 4 to a straight or complete the flush? Its really no to both of that, so if I ever made the mistake and saw the flop like this, I would probably play it, like Hero did.

[@BlackRain79Poker]

Thanks for your thoughts fundiver, it was a fun hand to comment on as well for me haha

[@jr9655]

I don't know that either of those hands would have mucked preflop. 1 guy was set mining, and the other guy had a chance for thenA high flush

[@konstantinsinichkin8855]

big solid 3 bet preflop then push all in flop.

[@compphysgeek]

sorry Hero .. first the minraise and then the call. You would definitely get a funplayer tag from me as well.

[@jaecubed592]

LMAO... You thoughts this was a limit game. 🤣 This hand was fun.

[@jimwalker7569]

If no one has raised yet, should we still raise higher than 3x pre with premium hands? Maybe 5x BB for more value?

[@jingjingjapan]

I have the same question too. Does anyone have an answer to this?

[@gaetantanguay9180]

At first when you said we should 5bet to 50 cents, I was scared about the fish, because he opens only 4%( so he mustbe strong) , so he could 6bet shove and put un in a tough spot. At 2NL, for players with stats like the fish in the video, can we imagine his open is so small because he calls so much instead of raising ?

[@gaetantanguay9180]

Or is QQ just always a stack off at 2NL so it doesn't matter ?

[@fundiver198]

I wont say, that QQ is always a stack-off preflop at 2NL, but I am close to saying, its typically a stack-off preflop at 6-max. Also there are a cupple things here about, how we use HUD-stats. First we often dont have a large sample on fish, so was that 4% maybe 1 hand out of the first 25, he played with us? In that case after this hand, his PRF is already 8%. Second bet size also matter, and when someone mini-raises at 2NL, its not a sign of strength. Its almost the same as a limp, since he is either trapping or trying to see a cheap flop, and way more often its the latter. A mini-raise never picks the pot up at 2NL, so its a weak play and usually a weak hand. And finally if he really was trapping by mini-raising with KK or AA, why on earth would he then just call the extra 4 cents, when the action got back to him? His trap worked, so now it would be time for him to 5-bet and not expect the player behind him to do it for him. So yeah. The way preflop played out in this hand, I am confident, that QQ is the best hand 99% of the time, and there is no way on earth, I am not stacking it off, if someone wants to play for stacks.

[@BlackRain79Poker]

Hey Gaetan, you don't need to worry that much when you see a fish with a PFR of 4 because often they don't think about poker logically. They will have all sorts of nonsense in their range as we saw in this hand. He showed down A8s. Also, it's 6-max and QQ is still doing reasonably well even against a 4% range that is only strong hands, AA, KK, QQ, AK, AQ and JJ. So it's an easy 5Bet here. If on the rare occasion the fish jams you can think about it. Very rare that will happen though.

[@gaetantanguay9180]

Thanks guys

[@druallard1040]

Nathan.love your work and I follow you religiously BUT, did you notice the fish took down the hand?

[@BlackRain79Poker]

Thanks Dru, yes the fish won the hand.

[@victoriousgoat1375]

BlackRain I have a question. What if this hand was played correctly until the turn? Considering the wet board, is it a fold if Villains 7/8 show further aggression?

[@BlackRain79Poker]

If this hand was played correctly I am probably not ever folding.

[@fundiver198]

It depends, what scenario you imagine, we would be in. If its a 43c pot against Villain 8 (assuming Hero make it 20c, he call, everyone else fold), and it goes 2c bet, 30c raise, 60c 3-bet as in this hand, then I am probably just calling the 3-bet, and yes I am probably folding, it he make a substantial bet on the turn. After all there is now 4 to a straight, and the flush came in, and we would be pretty deep against Villain 8.

[@connman8d617]

@@BlackRain79Poker Are you saying you're never folding assuming that, if you played the hand correctly, your SPR would be low enough to auto stack off? For the record, I believe that even if the hero had raised properly pre-flop he would have still had action from these particular 2 villains. I also believe that both of these villains would have come along even if the hero had correctly raised the flop. No chance at a snug fold on the turn? Because, to me, the 7 of clubs is just about the worst turn card in the deck and I could see myself folding QQ after what went down on the flop. Your thoughts?

[@nicks210684]

Agree with fundiver in a normal 3 bet pot, I’m probably not folding on the flop to a single raise since villain can be semi-bluffing with a ton of draws. But the turn is pretty much the worst card in the deck. We lose to so many hands. 33, 34, 44, 45, 55, 56, 66, 67, 77 and any club draw, I always seem to lose to some stupid hand on a board like this when I hold QQ so I’m pretty used to folding it.

[@ModMotorMayhem]

well, this has to be the worst played hand i've seen in a while, and i'm doubting the first preflop min 3bet to 6cent was an "accident" after watching this hand play out. Props to him for wanting to learn though.

[@alphabett66]

Anyone know a discord study group?

[@stephanegli3160]

Your book isnt free like you said. Am I missing something?

[@BlackRain79Poker]

I have one book which is free, top link in the description, and 3 others on my website which are not free.

[@MrShikasta]

Pre flop this is the divine comedy.. Inferno at the micros

[@gagfails4985]

the hero is the fish

[@colintoft2408]

This dude lied wasn't a misclick was just an absolute fuck up from the beginning 🤣

[@pavliga]

A8 could start rasing on preflop also. A8s is a nice hand. And on the flop also almost flash. But you know the player is a whale. But if you don't know this....

[@movieguy7398]

1/2 limit right? wtf?

[@jamesp4063]

Even though this was the worst played hand in the world, at this level the whale and the 77 probably wouldn’t of folded so in this instance the hero saved himself a bunch of cash, that’s not to say you should ever play a hand like that.

[@chesthoIe]

Villain4 is making a joke with chips. Has to be. I knew someone that would make that play that I would fold (well not QQ but, say AT, or 66,) to. QQ would be a call. She figured she 4 bet us.

[@Maverick-xs6ui]

I would have bet quite big on flop maybe an oversized bet to isolate myself with that big yummy whale . I would definitely not like to play this hand 3 ways let alone with 4 others . A few mistakes pre-flop. On the flip side our hero managed to get away with a decent fold I think. I have seen players go sailing down the river with AA in a multi pot stacking off all of their chips.🙈 I prefer a big bet preflop if I am facing whales and fishy players . They are likely to be calling me anyway so why not get max value???. If I'm at a table with regs who know what they are doing then I will bet standard 3 x or 4x preflop. With them most will fold as they will probably have notes on me as a REG TAG. My poker site has a small community compared to stars etc. I'm looking for 1-2 callers max. And will make a CB around 80 percent of the time depending on flop structure. On a very wet board I may cb half pot instead of 3/4 . I bet preflop either 3/4

[@AlexIevuta]

Mish mashed

[@gilhalifa6852]

This hand cannot really be taken seriously

[@BlackRain79Poker]

People send me poker hands to review all the time. I don't pick and choose. Everybody starts somewhere in this game so sometimes I do get hands like this where there are fundamental mistakes.

[@movieguy7398]

WTF is going on with this hand?

[@danntan6537]

Cringe play with QQ!

[@movieguy7398]

Who TF flats a 4bet?