Lord of the Rings & Game of Thrones - Similarities and Differences

[@prodigalsonofsuns]

Martin: Morality is relative, so all is grey. People are grey, so right and wrong is grey. Tolkien: Morality is objective. We, as people, are grey, but we should aspire to be good and do what is right. The difference of mentality is expressed in their works.

[@braemtes23]

Paulo RSF Excellent comment. Tolkien, himself, made a similar comment. I am paraphrasing: A good person can sometimes do evil, and an evil person can sometimes do good, but evil can never be good and good can never be evil.

[@braemtes23]

@Super I was paraphrasing Tolkien on a comment about relative and objective morality. Your comment is a reflection of relative morality (concept of good and evil changes with time). Tolkien had a different opinion.

[@prodigalsonofsuns]

If good and evil change with time, you can't really say anything is bad, because "it was what the majority thought at the time". Trying to make such claim makes you contradict yourself. By relativizing morality, you destroy yourself.

[@agentspaniel4428]

Part of this is because J RR Tolkien has been in real war back in WWI on the western front George RR Martin has never been on the field of war and so has a different view of the concept of war as a civilian unlike Tolkien who has a view on war as a soldier

[@MrPancake777]

Paulo Roberto Silva Filho both have different mentality, doesn’t mean one is right or wrong

[@ArcadeMusicTribute]

Here's one difference : Tolkien actually finished the saga XD

[@RomanHistoryFan476AD]

At least Aragon never went crazy from the sound of bells and burned down Minis Tirith Unlike well someone else, a certain Mother of Dragons, i will not mention by name.

[@Red_Devil_2011]

Trolololol

[@ArcadeMusicTribute]

@@RomanHistoryFan476AD I'm sure if G.R.R had written the ending the certain Mother of Dragons going nuts would make more sense but then again he'll never finish the saga. period.

[@RomanHistoryFan476AD]

@@ArcadeMusicTribute yeah if George made her goes nuts it would be done in a better way which works, but yet again unlike the show George did not write her in a way where she can do no wrong and everyone just bows to her and obeys her.

[@Story2ScreenMovieReviewPodcast]

What was worse, The Hobbit movies (which I'll admit I love those movies) or GOT season 8? (Which I was just crushed by on a disappointment level)

[@zahramohseni4275]

I love both fandoms but I WILL ALWAYS RIDE WITH THE LORD OF THE RINGS J.R.R TOLKIEN FOREVER

[@OrangeMapleLeaf]

A bit far fetched, but still: Beren, who changed into a wolf compares to the Starks and their close connection to direwolfs, and his perhaps very distant descendant Beorn, who could change into a bear is reminiscent of the Mormonts of Bear Island.

[@alanpennie8013]

@@OrangeMapleLeaf . I don't think it's all that far fetched. The American Tolkien is rather inclined to make these Easter Egg References to his English counterpart.

[@jessicawurm23]

@@alanpennie8013 Please do not call him the "American Tolkien". As this video shows, he nor anyone else is deserving of that title.

[@alanpennie8013]

@@jessicawurm23 I was being a little sarcastic.

[@pappabear4977]

Zahra Mohseni GoT sucks compared to Tolkien.

[@mattpalmq]

I started watching game of thrones because I saw that Boromir was in it lol

[@Fazzino_Tattoo]

Oh how dissapointed you will be my child

[@abradolflincler3762]

Rowen Starchild It's Sean Bean. Of course he dies.

[@leonievw2466]

Haha me too! Sean Bean convinced me to watch

[@LocalHeretic-ck1kd]

To be fair having Sean Bean was a huge promotion for GoT. When the show started he was everywhere in trailers, in merchandise etc. And he is to this day one of the most beloved characters in the whole show.

[@kokosaslobys8436]

@@LocalHeretic-ck1kdUntil Joffrey took his head.

[@johnrandolph1989]

In all honesty I believe LOTR is a masterpiece of all time. Game of Thrones is enjoyable, but in my opinion, I feel more attached to Middle Earth, not so much with Westoros.

[@nothisispatrick6528]

I would agree but only because the books aren’t called Game of thrones their called A Song Of Ice And Fire.

[@Vwall007ST]

Valar morghulis

[@ArchYeomans]

Tolkien's work has far more depth, nothing will ever beat it.

[@Lastskykey]

Yessss agree

[@Divinemakyr]

@@ArchYeomans That's opinionated. Martins has monstrous depth in his novels, especially in terms of foreshadowing and hidden meanings which make rereads great.

[@CulinVlau]

"the idea of the Dark Lord and his Evil Minions - in the hands of lesser writers over the years and decades has not served the genre well." *cough Benioff&Weiss *cough

[@fantasywind3923]

Well that's the case, WELL WRITTEN Dark Lords can be lots of fun and be a highlight of a story but if done badly they may be it's flaw. I for one always say that Sauron and Morgoth out of Tolkien stories are the best written Dark Lord types, and it should be noted, they still have their own motivation, personality and backstory and are made interesting. "For nothing is evil in the beginning. Even Sauron was not so." ... "“Sauron was of course not ‘evil’ in origin. He was a ‘spirit’ corrupted by the Prime Dark Lord (the Prime sub-creative Rebel) Morgoth. He was given an opportunity of repentance, when Morgoth was overcome, but could not face the humiliation of recantation, and suing for pardon; and so his temporary turn to good and ‘benevolence’ ended in a greater relapse, until he became the main representative of Evil of later ages. But at the beginning of the Second Age he was still beautiful to look at, or could still assume a beautiful visible shape - and was not indeed wholly evil, not unless all ‘reformers’ who want to hurry up with ‘reconstruction’ and ‘reorganization’ are wholly evil, even before pride and the lust to exert their will eat them up.”

[@nOT_sURE08]

I enjoy the Harry Potter movies but let's be real: Voldemort is a bargain-bin Sauron.

[@MrBigCookieCrumble]

@@nOT_sURE08 Dat nose tho

[@RomanHistoryFan476AD]

@@nOT_sURE08 I mean let's look at them, Sauron has his own country, his own towering fortress, nine immortal servants who can't be slayed, a large Armyof monsters and Orcs and humans from the east and south, multiple bases for his armies to rally at and a volcano as his personal forge. killed many in combat and many more though his influence. he also has command of magic so great, he did make mordor's mountains rise. Voldermort has a manor house he stole from the Mouthfoys, no fortress, servants who betray him at a drop of the hat, a crazy witch and got beaten by a baby then by teenagers.

[@Divinemakyr]

@@fantasywind3923 They are good characters, but no great characters.

[@queefburglar7548]

I’ve always felt like the MAIN difference between LotR and ASoIaF is that Tolkien’s fantasy is more mythology based, while Martin’s is more history based. Not to say that both authors don’t take a bit from each, obviously they do, but I feel like the influences are a lot greater in some places than others. The very world of Arda is a cross between Norse and Judeo-Christian mythology, with Tolkien’s own imagination thrown in, of course. A lot of the characters are similar to mythological archetypes (Gandalf the Grey is even described similarly to Odin on an aesthetic level), there’s a heavy focus on magic and ideal nations, as well as epic tragedies, many of which involve hubris, larger than life characters, ancient races. We even see gods and divine intervention. Tolkien even described LotR as a religious work, though unconsciously at first. The passage where Frodo goes into the West seems to me like Tolkien is offering his personal vision of afterlife. A Song of Ice and Fire is mostly inspired by the Wars of the Roses, but even outside that context, there are plenty of real-world historical parallels to compare to. Magic is more subtle for the most part, more mysterious, like how people would’ve viewed magic in the Middle Ages. We never see the beginning nor end of the world like in Tolkien, nor any larger than life characters near the level of those we meet in the Silmarillion, they’re mostly just regular people who are exceptional on a regular human level. The whole story, albeit put very simplistically, is about the clashing of leaders and cultures driven by greed and lust for power, even though, like real history, the fighting won’t amount to much because it’s in human nature to fight for power and it will always continue in one way or another. I’ve even heard the claim that even the more fantastic elements are based in reality, the White Walkers being akin to fears of the destructive power of climate change, and the dragons being akin to fears of the destructive power of nuclear weapons, and that makes sense to me. That’s just how I read into it though. I wholeheartedly agree with you at the end when you say we shouldn’t argue over which is better or whatever. I only love ASoIaF so much BECAUSE it’s so different from LotR. Lord of the Rings is my favorite book of all time, but almost all fantasy wants to be a carbon copy of it, which just annoys me and makes me not care. The few that have stood out because they dared to be different, like A Song of Ice and Fire, are much better for it. You can’t beat Tolkien at his own game, so why not try to do your own thing? The fantasy genre is not a one trip pony. I had no idea where I was going with this when I started this weird little rant and I still don’t know where I ended up with it, but I hope I said at least something of some value.

[@alanpennie8013]

I enjoyed your post. My own thinking is very similar to yours

[@seanrowden]

Thank you for this! I had to scroll a bit but I'm glad someone mentioned the myth vs history aspect, as that really does seem to be the core distinction in what makes these two so different. One thing I want to add is how this aspect makes for two entirely different instances of worldbuilding. The world Martin builds up for ASOIAF (like most fantasy worlds that have developed since LOTR) feels much more "alive" and "lived in" in terms of having many different peoples, cities and towns, economies and industries, etc; populous and fleshed out in a real-world historical sense. Middle-Earth is much emptier; not through lack of sustained worldbuilding, but because it befits the mythological end-of-an-era atmosphere. All the voluminous background lore JRRT builds up culminates in a vast, empty, harrowing landscape, with the faded grandeur of an ancient ruin. (Just another reason why these two are on completely different planes and anyone arguing over which is better are out of their damn minds)

[@Divinemakyr]

The perfect comment, you seem to be the only person here who actually took a fair look at both series.

[@thschnick]

the virgin martin vs The CHAD Tolkien

[@ReasonAboveEverything]

👌

[@Lastskykey]

👍

[@Red_Devil_2011]

Soyboy incel Martin vs The Chad Tolkien. Didn’t martin’s feminist girlfriend cheat on him then run off with his best friend? Lol. Some Mother of Dragons.

[@ripleb6261]

soyboy incel who actually writes compelling female characters

[@lordforages8319]

@@ripleb6261 Tolkien also wrote compelling female characters

[@Besaofficial12]

GRRM said that he hates this good and evil trope Dumb and Dumber: Hold our Starbucks... cough Night King cough

[@Lalvon_Zelpharr]

The Night King was absolutely based on Sauron and maybe Darth Maul lol

[@raitoiro]

The night king may not be evil in the books, in the TV show sure he is your run of the mill dark lord, but the TV show has been losing in quality since they've run out of book to adapte, and they've simplified the whole thing. In fact in the book the first encounter with the Other allready show that they're not that terrible, when they attacked a knight of the Night Watch they didn't gang up on him but face him in a fair one on one.

[@cynicalleviathan3305]

Exactly. They literally did something George has been trying not to do with these books since the very beginning. Thats why the show is an awful adaptation.

[@perspii2808]

Super Vegito Not really George’s fault tbh. The showrunners have messed up quite badly with George’s material across the last three seasons, not to mention that The Night King isn’t even a character in ASoIaF

[@abradolflincler3762]

raitoiro Its not just the lack of book material that is to blame. The show runners are sick of the show and just want to end it asap rather then passing the torch to somebody who cares still.

[@cynicalleviathan3305]

Game Of Thrones(the show)at this point is just an insult to George RR Martin and everything his books stand for. Lord Of The Rings was much better adaptated than ASOIAF. I really hope ASOIAF gets a better adaptation at some point in the future cause the show just fell apart as soon they diverged from the source material.

[@gabrielhughes8221]

Yes I'd agree

[@abradolflincler3762]

MrRobotster 100 I have never been so let down with a show or movie as I have been with the last couple GOT seasons.

[@leonievw2466]

The last season is a dissapointment. Bad writing, all for shocking moments in stead of good storyline :(

[@cynicalleviathan3305]

@Private joker I dont know how that has anything to do with what i said, but what i meant when i said it goes against Georges writing is that ASOIAF is a very complex and unconventional dark fantasy that goes against traditional fantasy tropes by having multi layered grey characters instead of having one dimensional fantasy archetypes which pretty much every character on the show has turned into with their mustache twerling villains such as the night king which is a type of character George has always tried not to write. Aside from the rampant plot holes,logical inconsistencies,poor world building,the show has gone against the core elements that made these books special in the first place.

[@rotwang2000]

@Private joker Martin is a huge comic book fan, GoT is essentially Watchmen. Where Tolkien is about telling myths and legends in a straight way. Martin asks "Yeah, but what about the "Rightful King's" tax policy ? It's essentially the realism filter applied to Fantasy. Now in that regard Martin's work kinda lurches into the territory of going into extremes of "Everything is horrible, every time, all the time ...", pretty much the same mistake most Watchmen expies have made in the past. The biggest mistake it to think that the realism has now replaced the legend and myth and that everything being grimdark is the supreme hallmark of storytelling, but without the myth you have no contrast. When everyone is anti-hero, why still need the "anti" ?

[@vincesergi7339]

Well lord of the rings had an ending.

[@juandrefourie8572]

A few endings haha ;)

[@Amonny]

@@juandrefourie8572 The ending is the last scene of the movie. There is no such thing as "multiple endings".

[@oriboy7415]

@@Amonny The last 30 minutes of Returm of the king is absolutely incredible amd amazing. People only says it's mulitple endings because of the constant fade to black. But I definetly agree with you

[@fookinaye8277]

is this an r/wooosh moment?

[@RomanHistoryFan476AD]

And Minis Tirith was not burned down, unlike King's Landing.

[@mikevalenzuela3974]

Then men of the west send their regards...🤔🤔

[@seanmoran6510]

Ones influenced by Catholic teaching The other Post Modernist ideology

[@josephpalaiologos]

Very true

[@thschnick]

Tolkien was VERY Catholic. He turned C. S. Lewis into a Christian and he even spoke The Lord's Prayer in Latin.

[@blvp2145]

Your a brave man for saying that out load.

[@kyomademon453]

@c30f$p@d3z tolkien would probably lead you to turn into a latin american country in the 19th century, heavy censorship and everything ruled by religion, i love his books but in no way would i take the advice on someone who was born so long ago to modern society

[@justchilling704]

@@kyomademon453 Your comment is a bogus misrepresentation, of Tolkien, and ironically all governments have religiousness and censorship even the USA.

[@missnekodes]

I mean everyone watched Game of thrones because of Ned because one does not simply forget lord of the ring's characters.

[@spirittammyk]

No. People started watching GOT because of the dragons, and boobs and lots of sex.

[@Dadecorban]

Incorrect. That may have been your reason for giving the tv-show a try.

[@sudeepdhruwe6054]

@@spirittammyk well they stayed because it was good

[@KashifKhan-yj4sn]

It would be funny if Sean bean was fighting himself in the thumbnail

[@marlonjormungand7845]

You made my day.

[@Infrared01]

Who dies? Eddard or Boromir?

[@seanharris8419]

Infared That would be a really good fight. Impossible to say the outcome.

[@noahtimportent6710]

It'll be a mutual kill, or they both get pincushioned from off-screen suddenly.

[@animeXcaso]

Fight Club

[@jacobsedlack1173]

When someone dies in Tolkien, they're mourned but the quest to defeat evil goes on and the survivors are greatly changed, having learned a hard lesson about life and loss but we stay with the survivors until their story ends. It's consistent and life affirming. When someone dies in ASOIAF it's gruesome and reflects the harshness of life then four to five new POV characters are introduced out of the death to call the dead character an idiot for trying to do the moral thing instead of the "pragmatic thing"/not being devious enough to survive/just because. It's a clusterfuck and cynical.

[@Lolux1701]

Absolutely it totally is cynical. Characters die pointlessly and their sacrifices have no impact on the world. I mean it can be refreshing to see the "heroes" fail (Ned Stark) once in a while. But in ASOIAF it happens constantly. I also find the explicitely pornographic passages in ASOIAF weird. Tolkiens books are arguably "adult" fantasy and he didn't feel the need to have characters constantly screwing eachother.

[@CreepyCrow6]

Lolux1701 because is the nature of the world that G.R.R Martin presented, maybe you like it or not but it’s consistent with the world logic, is a subjective matter.

[@RyderMCG]

@Super it also makes it boring as sin... if i want to experience real life i go to work make dinner and have at best an hour or two spare to rest and then get back to work tomorrow

[@RyderMCG]

@Super oh im by no means saying that GoT is bad or unenjoyable i enjoy the books but its a lot harder for me to get into the world and care about the characters of the books

[@Divinemakyr]

@@Lolux1701 Lord of the Rings is just fantasy, it can be enjoyed by adults, children, old people. A Song of Ice and Fire is realistic fantasy.

[@Davidofthelost]

Tolkien is the Grandfather who truly build the sandbox all Fantasy writer play in, whether they make decent and beautiful art or just take a dump on the playground equipment. Martin might be a good writer, but Tolkien is my favorite and an inspiration to all fantasy writers from the beginning. With The Hobbit for the children, and Lord of the Rings for the more mature audience.

[@jamesharvey3993]

As cool as GoT is, I’ve found the books really quite a chore to read, unlike the wonderful prose of Tolkien.

[@a_fuckin_spacemarine7514]

I'm the exact opposite. LOTR books are such a slog.

[@raitoiro]

Funny, personaly it's the exact opposite, I can read and re-read GoT without problem, but I'm probably never going to read LoR a second time, I love the world building and the story was good, but the writing was too convoluted which really didn't help the rythme and characters devlopement.

[@jamesharvey3993]

@@a_fuckin_spacemarine7514 lmao so true! I just felt like George took every opportunity to add in his lame medieval porn fanfic.

[@delakayi6286]

Are u kidding me

[@delakayi6286]

Yh i agree 👍

[@coralcrown562]

Hey Boss! If I could suggest your next video: An epic character history on Cirdan the Shipwright. Dude is old and did more for all folks of the Eldar than I realized.

[@MenoftheWest]

Hey man, thanks for the suggestion! I'll add it to the list and I'll be sure to make it sometime soon!

[@goncaloferreira6429]

good sugestion. Cirdan is a characters that i would love to get a good dive into. In a way he is an unsung hero, did much but none sing his deeds. Was he wise? what did he think of Evil, sauron and the elves sailing West? We know he is very old and somehow respected as the builder of ships, but was he a noble elf? Did the elf leaders consult him?

[@angelobellizzi7918]

One ring to rule them all > winter is coming

[@Divinemakyr]

Winter is coming represents so much more, and is just such a better phrase.

[@Divinemakyr]

@Laltluangliana Sailop Yes, BIG YES.

[@yourname2557]

Winter is coming certainly looks more meaningful than Fire and Blood. Can't compare it with LOTR though.

[@MzShaybutta]

Winter is coming was a " dope slogan. Hands down. GRRM wins that one.

[@johnpannebaker5757]

The battle of Helms Deep comparable to the battle of Winterfell? lolz

[@elizabethtaylor8428]

At least you saw what was happening in the Battle of Helm's Deep . . . oops! Did I say that out loud? ;) Team Tolkien!!!

[@fuzzles6296]

The Battle of Winterfell isn't real. It's from the show, not the books. Don't be stupid.

[@Sakuradragon639]

I love both of these series. They have made fantasy something to behold

[@a_fuckin_spacemarine7514]

Stannis is one of my favourite characters of any fiction. Idk why, he's just cool I guess.

[@alanpennie8013]

A Fucking Space Marine He stands for uncompromising justice. That's appealing. At least in fiction. It would likely be intolerable in real life.

[@Lolux1701]

@@alanpennie8013 It is especially appealing because Martins world is otherwise inhabited by powerhungry cynics. Stannis doesn't want the throne he sees it as his duty.

[@homelesstvh7737]

I really feel saddened by how the show portrayed Stannis, it just really felt like D&D utterly despised the character. He's one of my favorite characters in the books.

[@aravinds3846]

@@homelesstvh7737 he’s still burning Shireen if you like it or not

[@mikegagne3263]

Got through 4 books of Games of Thrones and finally gave up as I found it tedious. Read LOTR, the Silmarillion his book of letters and the entire History of Middle Earth many times. As Stan Lee would have said, "Nuff said."

[@mikegagne3263]

Usually delete responses even favorable ones. Not this one, thank you very much.

[@MrBigCookieCrumble]

The Silmarillion, man that was a tough read, or should i say _reads,_ had to read that thing probably 3 times to sort things out properly in my head, just so much information and characters to keep track of. Very fascinating world building, i dont like that elves are almost always portrayed as gleeful snobs 98% of the time in fantasy, the elves of Tolkien in the first age are so epic!

[@saulgoneman]

You found the fucking Silmarillion less tedious than ASOIAF? How?

[@RyderMCG]

Its because its high fantasy. No offense to GoT bit it being low fantasy is a big hurdle to get over to enjoy it because it has less fantastical elements which give it more charm and that feeling of submersing yourself into a world thats entirely its own. GoT has stuff going for it thats true but its a more grounded more boring world overall. High fantasy doesnt have to be realistic it needs to be awe inspiring, whimsical and have the sense of wonder and amazement. Low fantasy cant really be that since it often tends to stick to reality in terms of themes. Thata not to say it cant be done really well take the witcher series baring the last one (chronologically) that wasnt so good it has mature themes a ibteresting story but still fantastical in nature while maintaining themes of realism

[@Markadown]

Lol, what? I get that books 4&5 slow down the pace and changes style a bit, but it was more tedious than the Silmarillion? Interesting take. I've never heard that from anyone before.

[@davidvanvranken1595]

“I predict the Battle of King’s Landing will be like the Pelennor Fields.” Oh, you sweet summer child...

[@nikovidya7994]

One point worth mentioning that wasn't in the video is how much of ASoIaF is taken from real-world history. The Targaryen conquest = the Norman conquest, the Red Wedding = the Black Dinner, the wall = Hadrian's wall, Starks vs Lannisters = the War of the Roses etc etc. While many of Tolkien's locations are analogous to real life (I heard somewhere that Tol Erresea is the British Isles), it's definitely not as obvious, and the events exist in an entirely alternate history. I think grounding his stories in real events was GRRM's way of speaking on the morality of real life. The knowledge that real history is the one place he could come up with things as atrocious as the Red Wedding furthers his point about good and evil in the world. Maybe it also acts as a subtle criticism of the somewhat idealised Middle Earth.

[@Divinemakyr]

There is absolutely no problem with taking inspiration from history.

[@lordforages8319]

Gondor-Byzantine or East roman empire Rohan-Anglo Saxon Rhùn or Easterlings-Sassanid Empire Haradrim-Carthage Corsairs-Barbary Pirates in Mediterranean Middle Earth-America Continent Arnor-West Roman Empire Numenorians-Trojans the plague that killed many people in middle earth even hobbits is affected -The black death

[@orangexlightning]

I saw Tolkien with my family today, absolutely loved it!

[@ElectroIsMyReligion]

LSSJOrangeLightning How was he doing?

[@PitaGyro14]

@@ElectroIsMyReligion the movie you stupid

[@oberstjanfeldmann7158]

@@ElectroIsMyReligion dead

[@ElectroIsMyReligion]

@@PitaGyro14 "Tolkien the movie" :D ? - relax I was just joking

[@justin_hero9647]

I can say that I respect both of the writers for the immense work they put for their fantasy novels. But, for me, Tolkien's work always felt more organic and natural in terms of how the lore, magic and events played out. On Martin's part all I could see from the books and show is the ideal of adding complexity, shock value and an outline that lost its way after the end of A Storm of Swords. From my perspective, I think that Tolkien wrapped already the entire story for the world of Arda in his mind way before he started writing the novels and his life experience only helped enriched some events and characters. Where for Martin, I think that he still is struggling with his lore, history and characters of Westeros, he already has ideas but because of his fear about the public opinion and the critics he is afraid to put them on paper. In the end I think that Martin has put a goal to try to surpass Tolkien, but because of the show and expectations that people have he is afraid of failing to deliver a story that can rival the one of his inspirational author.

[@timonsolus]

Iustin C : Or maybe he signed an agreement not to publish more books until the show was over.

[@shooshooshooshooshooter]

I wholeheartedly disagree with your points regarding Martin. In the past 5 years alone, he's brought out 2 'world' books akin to the Silmarillion. They're both packed with ancient history and lore further enriching the World of Ice and Fire. Furthermore, I apologise if this sounds snide, but only truely hardcore fans of the series appreciate books 4 and 5. They perfectly convey why this world *feels* lived in. Book 4 perfectly depicts the fallout and despair of war via Brienne's journey through the Riverlands. You can actually feel that the lives of the commonfolk has been completely destroyed because of the 'action' in the first 3 books. Book 5 sets up a lot of plots for books 6 & 7. The show means nothing to me since I don't count it as canon. I genuinely believe if the internet didn't exist, we'd still be finding new theories and hidden plots in these books decades from now. Unfortunately, back in 1991, GRRM didn't account for the collective human intelligence deducing the books to the point of scrutiny.

[@CoolAsianGuy]

@@timonsolus no. read martin blog post. he already answer the rumour. he said that the rumour isn't true and explain how stupid the rumour was. he hasn't finished book 6 let alone book 7

[@steelbear2063]

Dude, Tolkien has built a world to suit his narrative. It's not "organic" by any means. 100% bad guys live in a dark place with nothing but rocks and lava, 100% good guys get good places. Boom, done. Martin's world lives it's own life. Events happen naturally, not because good guys went to complete a McGuffin quest. And if Martin was afraid to put his ideas on paper because of his fear about the public opinion and the critics - the ASOIAF wouldn't exist at all.

[@shooshooshooshooshooter]

Steel Bear OMG thank you. So poignantly put. That’s exactly how I feel. I could never imagine Tolkien’s world being real whereas I could certainly imagine Westeros and the world of ice and fire existing somewhere out there in the cosmos. It’s organic and feels lived in and alive. And most importantly it’s not a generic story of good vs. evil. It’s about the human heart in conflict with itself and no greater story can be told.

[@josejoaquim4344]

The more I read about Martin's criticisms of LOTR, the more I realise that he did not understand Tolkien's message in the book. I believe this just ends up as a matter of different views on morality: Martin believes in Moral Relativism, while Tolkien believes in Moral Objectivism.

[@IlijaBossrock]

If someone undersstand LOTR its Martin.

[@Ret-Con]

I would love to see a video about Tolkien and his "inspiration" from Wagner's rheingold since it's often debated whether he had any inspiration or not

[@alanpennie8013]

Feingaladhir Tolkien always denied being influenced by Wagner. In truth both were drawing from the same myth store.

[@Ret-Con]

@@alanpennie8013 I think it would be an amazing video to draw conclusions and differences between the two.

[@alanpennie8013]

@@Ret-Con I'd be happy if our You Tuber did it

[@braemtes23]

I believe that one influence on Tolkien's work came from Finnish lore.

[@alanpennie8013]

@@braemtes23 I can believe it. Finnish is a notoriously difficult language to learn and that would have appealed to Tolkien who could learn languages very quickly.

[@PADARM]

but the Men in LoTR are also morally ambiguous and even Saruman and the Elves are not "Black and White", they are selfish and ambitious and Saruman was a Maiar!! also Tolkien always says Men are a corruptible kind. G R.R.Martin criticism towards Tolkien does not make sense.

[@PADARM]

@Association of Free People exactly even the Elves are morally ambiguous. Fëanor people slayed their own Kind for god's sake!!

[@Flamethrower1942]

Big difference in JRR Tolkien actually finished his tale , shame as HBO are tarnishing Martin's work.

[@sethdowner9112]

And then came the Rings of power

[@mightandknowledge]

I read a Song of Ice and Fire long before the TV show was even announced, and I read LOTR before that, and other Tolkien works after that. When reading Tolkien I experienced this nostalgia, a feeling that I had lost something, long ago, which was noble, and pure, and better that what we have today, that my close ones and friends were far away, yet ever so precious, and I know that these are some of the main themes of Tolkien's works, but to touch the reader ever so deeply is hard to put to words. I also love the films. ASoIaF... a lot of pages were filled with who ate what and who fucked who. Don't really care about the books or the show anymore.

[@JonathanRossRogers]

Nobody has read A Song of Ice and Fire because it isn't complete.

[@raitoiro]

I think while some similarity are clearly inspiration (the 2 Sam for exemple), for a lot of other it seems more like both are inspired by a common source, for exemple: the advance civilization which fell in a geological event (valeria and numenor) seem more like both are inspired by Atlantis more than by one an another.

[@Divinemakyr]

*Valyria

[@crushingit5128]

While I surprisingly loved Tolkien’s long worded writing style. I loved GRRM approach to there is no absolute evil. Everyone is evil and good. When I see absolute evil I have questions about how a society can function like that. Plus if there were orcs in a GRRM book he would absolutely describe their society, politics, and reproduction. So I think Tolkien is the better writer but GRRM is going to more detailed with the world. And definitely have less inconsistencies. Plus George wants to avoid the all evil troupe. For which I do appreciate

[@eduardmanecuta5350]

Tolkien wanted to created a sequel to Lord of the Rings which would similar to A Song of Ice and Fire, but after he wrote 40 pages or so, he abandoned the project... It's fantasy. It's not meant to reflect reality. It's escapism for adults. I am more impressed with Tolkien's work because the man fought in WWI and even after all the horrors of war that he most definitely saw, he still chose to create a story that gives hope.

[@aidanbove231]

LOTR is beautiful in its “simpler” approach and its more pure tone. It will always be one of my favorite franchises of all, more so than Harry Potter and on par with Star Wars. I love that LOTR doesn’t need the sex and politics to have a compelling story. LOTR will always be special and it’s Catholic roots are what make it all of that. God bless!

[@shiray9143]

Not true at all

[@aidanbove231]

Turin Karstark what’s not true?

[@Divinemakyr]

@@aidanbove231 Exactly, the sex is the last thing to make it a compelling story. Anyone can easily counter this with: "I love that ASoIaF doesn't need epic fantasy features to have a compelling story."

[@paulwilliams2024]

Aidan Bove StarWars is better then them all

[@oberstjanfeldmann7158]

@@paulwilliams2024 ok

[@12345678900987659101]

J.R.R. Tolkien G.R.R. Martin Who's stealing who's names?

[@calumhood1997]

Martin because Tolkien was born in 1892 and Martin was born in 1948.

[@nothisispatrick6528]

J.K Rowling

[@darcyliz9993]

"You're a pirate...... you even stole my R R"

[@jessmith7324]

For me the interesting bit is that in the early seasons, fans praised GOT for not being like LOTR, being more realistic. But as the show has gone on, they seem to have demanded more elements of hopefulness and change that LOTR has in it. Not sure what to make of that

[@alanpennie8013]

Jes smith732 I think GRRM fully intends to give them these things. He's not writing grimdark. It's just he hasn't got round to finishing the series.

[@yodaslovetoy]

I identify as a gray. Yes I will break some laws (depending on the circumstances) and others that I wont break, under any circumstance. Its normally taken on a case by case but as I've said there is some things I wont do

[@brodieknight772]

Like a gray alien?

[@yodaslovetoy]

@@brodieknight772 ok

[@seanharris8419]

I honestly have no idea wtf you’re talking about. Am I missing something here?

[@steelbear2063]

@@seanharris8419 Yes

[@brocklawer7635]

True I like that Martin expands and keeps the fantasy genre fresh and different while also crediting Tolkien for being the first pioneer of modern fantasy. Both authors are different but are great at making u feel your are taken to their world.

[@Lolux1701]

Tolkien would certainly disapprove of Martins writing though...

[@hxrn9426]

Very true

[@marammiram8849]

Nothing i repeat NOTHING can be compared to LOTR it is a masterpiece The books and movies and i've always wished that Tolkien lived so he could see his fantasy come to life ..💔

[@MarshWaha]

The fact Martin names several things in his books after certain parts in LOTR is very cool. I know the first time I read GOT I didn’t like it, but realize I never really gave it a chance, think I might try reading GOT again.

[@brodieknight772]

Another Difference: Lord of the Rings had an amazing adaptation through and through. Return of the King didn't take a nose dive like Fred Flintstone breaking his ankle mid road trip. Also, Lord of the Rings makes sense, and is consistent. I never once felt betrayed in LOTR.

[@brodieknight772]

@Dark Wizard there is no perfect story. Are you referring to the original story altogether, or the film adaptation?

[@Divinemakyr]

​@@brodieknight772 Feeling betrayed in a story isn't a bad thing. The movies' adaptations were shit, and that's a fact.

[@brodieknight772]

@@Divinemakyr what plant are you living on, bud? Anyway, different opinions I guess. I don't care to argue about it.

[@Divinemakyr]

@@brodieknight772 It's a widely accepted fact by Tolkien fans that the movies were bad.

[@brodieknight772]

@@Divinemakyr You are the first person I have ever heard say that. Ever. I have been way into Tolkien since I was very young, and I have never heard of a single person who watched the movies and even mildly disliked them, no matter how hard they were into the books. Clearly 'widely accepted' is not the right phrase.

[@DarkKing009]

“Hodor," said Hodor.” a song of ice and fire

[@AGCcachanilla]

George R R Martin is a devout J R R Tolkien fan, he even went to the premiere, dont compare these two, dont start this unnecessary bickering

[@spirittammyk]

Sadly, I seen so many hard core LOTR and JRR fans try to tear GRRM and GOT to shreds.

[@paulwilliams2024]

Albert Guerrero LOTR fans love to bicker

[@miqueiaspaulo1]

Another big difference in my opinion is regarding escapism. Tolkien works bring you to an extraordinary world, full of meaning, with a lot of fair things. While Martin world is often too similar to our own world, and sometimes even more meaningless and gives you a sense of cynicism. I think the Songs of Ice and Fire books are well written, and have very interesting plots. Nonetheless, I've had a very hard time going through the books, not so much because they are very long, but because they are, in a way, very depressing.

[@sambrockelsby522]

Awesome video, love some of points you made. I've read both series of books multiple times and think both are great, but for quite different reasons. For me, ASOIAF is amazing due to it's attention to detail and the sense of realism you get from it. GRRM had stated that real world historical events such as the war of the roses heavily influenced his work, and I love the richness and depth of the world he has created. It seems very real, the characters are completely believable, and it's not hard to imagine some of the events that happen in the world of ice and fire happening in exactly the same way in our world. On the other hand, Tolkien has stated that his work is more influenced by old legends such as beowulf, and that results in a totally different thing altogether. Tolkien's work features more archetypal characters and themes, and has a more 'universal' quality to it. It doesn't have quite the same attention to detail or sense of realism as ASOIAF, but it resonates with me on a much deeper level somehow. Also important to note the context within which both stories were written. I would argue that the world GRRM grew up and lived in was much less black and white, and more "grey" than the one that Tolkien lived in - GRRM was a anti-war activist and basically a gigantic hippie, and was part of a social movement that had a pretty pessimistic outlook with regard to things like state authority, traditional hierarchies, and the ability of rulers to wield power for the good of their subjects - and all this really comes through in his writing. Tolkien was also anti-war of course, but I feel that LOTR presents the idea that war is sometimes justified (and is perhaps, a necessary sacrifice) when it is waged to defeat evil (as was the prevailing feeling at the time during WW1 and WW2), and that power is a good thing when it is wielded by someone who is selfless and benevolent (like Aragorn). Anyway that's my 2 cents - not trying to say one is better than the other or anything, both are outstanding works of art and hold a special place in my heart :)

[@alanpennie8013]

Sam Brockelsby Good post. I don't actually think the two writers are really all that different in their attitude to war. GRRM has said that he is not a pacifist, he was specifically opposed to the Vietnam War, not all wars

[@rebeccabaumgarten7573]

About Tolkien’s believes about power: he said one could describe the story, especially the climax, as follows: “forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us, and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.“ And I would add, “ for the kingdom, the power, and the glory are yours, now and forever.“

[@skabcat242]

I like both. Sauron will forever be my dark lord.

[@tarmairon431]

I am very glad to hear that.

[@orrointhewise87]

Yeeeeeaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh sorry Team Tolkien all the way lol I dunno what it is about GoT that puts me to sleep or cross eyed with confusion but it doesnt grasp my imagination and attention the same as Middle Earth Guess I know how it feels like when I talk about Lord of the Rings to regular people I feel the same when hearing about GoT O well 🤷🏻‍♂️ haha

[@ligeiaztomb2755]

Amen

[@shep9231]

You are not alone my friend. The Lord of the Rings was a timeless Masterpiece.... the Game of Thrones is the War of the Roses only on a much grander scale.

[@nothisispatrick6528]

I’m sorry I can’t hear you through all that plot armor.

[@Divinemakyr]

Have you read the books? Or just watched the show?

[@Divinemakyr]

@@shep9231 A Song of Ice and Fire>>>>>>>>>>Lord of the Rings.

[@DarkKing009]

“Never refuse a cup of wine or a horn of ale,” Ser Arlan had once told him, “it may be a year before you see another.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms

[@_Dovar_]

As always - the most important difference is in the soul. Of a person or of a work of art...

[@Lucas747G]

True! Just J.S. Bach in music They were the best at what they did

[@MenoftheWest]

UPDATE GOT S8E5 & S8E6 Spoilers: E5: Well that was an interesting episode. Parts of the battle reminded me of the Siege of Minas Tirith and the Ride of the Rohirrim, at first, and then it quickly became like the Fall of Dale under Smaug... It subverted some archetypal expectations (and certain character motivations), and kept up the idea of defying genre tropes. But, that may not always be a good thing. Let me know your thoughts about this! E6: That was a pretty good ending in my opinion! There were definitely parts in it that were reminiscent of Tolkien’s works, such as Sam writing A Song of Ice and Fire just like Frodo and Sam wrote The Lord of the Rings. And Arya sailing west was similar to Frodo sailing to Aman at the end of the Return of the King. Bran becoming the king was alike to Aragorn becoming king. I’m sure there are some other similarities in the episode as well! And the story ended in some interesting and diverse ways apart from the LOTR too!

[@cratker]

Great way to destroy years of character development in a couple of episodes. Smh.

[@ToddTheTolerable]

I could only imagine if the Rohirrim sacked and blew up Minas Tirith because Eowyn was mad Theodin died. Telling a satisfying story > subverting expectations

[@MenoftheWest]

@@ToddTheTolerable Very true, my friend!

[@alanpennie8013]

@@MenoftheWest Fall of Dale! You're not wrong. Drogon and Smaug should get together.

[@Fluffyolphert]

I used to think GOT was up there with LOTR... Please forgive me.

[@neiloconnor7776]

You are forgiven just remember nothing will beat lotr

[@Divinemakyr]

Have you read the books? Do you even have the right to say this is you haven't? Also, it is called A Song of Ice and Fire, not Game of Thrones.

[@ligrag7527]

Dude read the books because they are a fucking masterpiece.

[@macca409]

Lord of the Rings continues to get better all the way until the end... then there’s GoT...

[@Glo0ze]

Not a fair comparison to make without the asoiaf books being finished. I mean give an average show runner the first two out of three lotr books and make him finish it. It will suck as well since the writing will be shit just like GOT

[@macca409]

Glooze Except LOTR was complete, that’s their fault for starting the show before the books were finished

[@Divinemakyr]

Who's fault? DnD made the show, Martin the books.

[@JoaoPedro-qp9cw]

Mae govannen mellon, haven't been commenting in a while but I am listing some ideas and questions, hope you are doing well

[@MenoftheWest]

Hey! It's good to hear from you! I hope you are doing well also!

[@morgothfromangband6082]

I call Game of Thrones 'The Rape of Boromir'.

[@michaelmalone7789]

Love Preston Jacobs channel too, great work as always!

[@louisjwiese5515]

No comparison. Tolkien was light years ahead. Also ahead of his time. A professor and fellow at various colleges in Oxford. Lieutenant in World War 1. Survived 2 world wars. Born in South Africa. Appointed commander of the order of the British Empire by the Queen. And great friend of CSLewis. I.e. not just a great writer, and the great father of all of fantasy fiction, but also, more importantly, a great man.

[@David-ps1rz]

Main differences: one is a deeply profound story that incorporates the entire spirit of Western philosophy, theology and myth into a literary masterpiece; the other is a cheap stimulant like cocaine that makes you high for a couple hours but leaves you with nothing significant in the long run. I say this as someone who has read ASoIaF (thus far) multiple times.

[@Hero_Of_Old]

You must be kidding. ASOIAF has great depth

[@David-ps1rz]

@@Hero_Of_Old Sorry, but this is going to be a long reply, cause I really wanna get this off my brain lol (Also, please know that I'm not trying to be snarky or rude with you, this has just been my opinion on the matter for the past few years). The selling points of GoT and ASoIaF have been shock tactics and subversion. "When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die." So you have senseless, horrific deaths you never see coming and a crap ton of political maneuvering. Oh and sex. Lots of sex. And sure, that's very emotive and entertaining! But it's not depth--at least not meaningful depth. So let me talk Tolkien for a second: Tolkien didn't write anything shocking or subversive; he wrote what was meaningful and substantive. The entire philosophy of LotR was/is the "Eucastrophe", that against all odds, when people do what is right--even though it will most likely cost their lives--it's worth something. Because of this, at the exact moment of what would be your greatest defeat, things turn around and you achieve your greatest victory. The Silmarillion is more akin to Thrones because it emphasizes tragedy, but it's not senseless tragedy like ASoIaF. In the Silmarillion, great heroes bravely do what is right, but they die terrible deaths anyway. Heroes slowly become villainous. Everything beautiful is marred. Everything pure is violated. This is classical tragedy. But even in the midst of that, it is not senseless because characters remember those things; they persevere and suffer just long enough for an Earendil to come along and save the day--but the world is left diminished, broken and will never be as great as it once was. Again: tragedy. And whether you read LotR or the Silmarillion, either story strikes a chord deep in the human psyche because it has a depth of meaning. MARTIN on the other hand begins the entire story with a nihilistic framework: there's no good or evil in reality; there's just those who kill, and those that get killed. That makes for a great novel or two, because it's hard-hitting and brutally close to reality. Unfortunately, it fails miserably at making an epic. Epics revolve around meaning. Martin, whether he realizes it or not, contradicts his own story's overarching philosophy by using these overtones of destiny and magic, heroes and villains, cosmic warfare between death/the Night King, and life/ the Lord of Light stuff. Those things are supposed to connote a meaningful end. But all of those things are precluded from the story's philosophy. They just don't make an epic. Epics have to have a "why" to frame them, and ASoIaF has no "why." It's like the series is having an existential crisis or something! That's why people are biting back at the show right now. They're trying to tie off an epic, but they have no idea what the story really stands for. It comes off like a novel inspired by Nietzchean philosophy but then turns around and tries act like a heroe's story or a tragedy. That's why Martin is taking so long to finish the books. He probably feels that no matter how he ends it, the result will undermine or not live up to the story. I mean he's written what, 4 or 5 other novellas in between ADwD and now? But I digress, I've thoroughly enjoyed Martin's books and the show for what they are. And I've actually enjoyed the past 2 seasons, too! To be frank, I started enjoying them more when they departed from the books. This is just my two-cents...why I think ASoIaF doesn't hold a candle to LotR or the Silmarillion. Again sorry for the length of the post. Have a good one o/

[@CoolAsianGuy]

truth. i read them only once and can't do it again. it was like a fucking chore to read them asoiaf

[@sudeepdhruwe6054]

@@David-ps1rz that your opinion

[@sudeepdhruwe6054]

@@CoolAsianGuy your opinion

[@riamanobody6338]

Ooooo yaaay new video, ive been so anxious all week waiting for a new video!!!

[@mikaruzic8601]

We can only hope that Mackay and Payne know what are they doing and how much Tolkien's world means to us... Please don't be like Dumb and Dumber, don't hook us and then destroy us with bad writing.

[@fantasywind3923]

If anything they should learn from other people's mistakes, though truth be told those two guys don't fill me with much confidence considering that their writing experience is unknown, they are credited with writing for movies which haven't even been released :) like Jungle Cruise, or ones that may never be released like Star Trek 4, quite aside the fact that those are stupid blockbusters not something that would have heart and soul. I hoped for someone more experienced and someone who would be real fan of Tolkien and fully grasping the complex lore.

[@Red.Butterfly]

Jon is actually Frodo. Closest to the power (Jon being the direct heir to the throne) and seem not to be corrupted by it (he doesn't let his Targayen side win over his Stark side). They are also both the ones who suffered the most by the said power.

[@anotherfggt5839]

I love the GoT show but never been interested in the books like I am with LOTR type books and such.

[@shooshooshooshooshooter]

Doctor Volcom you’re doing those books a disservice then. They’re a masterpiece in their own right

[@anotherfggt5839]

@@shooshooshooshooshooter Hmm, I might have to pick them up then. How many is there?

[@CoolAsianGuy]

@@shooshooshooshooshooter ​ can your beloved george write something like this, “Despair, or folly?' said Gandalf. 'It is not despair, for despair is only for those who see the end beyond all doubt. We do not. It is wisdom to recognize necessity, when all other courses have been weighed, though as folly it may appear to those who cling to false hope. Well, let folly be our cloak, a veil before the eyes of the Enemy! For he is very wise, and weighs all things to a nicety in the scales of his malice. But the only measure that he knows is desire, desire for power; and so he judges all hearts. Into his heart the thought will not enter that any will refuse it, that having the Ring we may seek to destroy it. If we seek this, we shall put him out of reckoning.' 'At least for a while,' said Elrond. 'The road must be trod, but it will be very hard. And neither strenght nor wisdom will carry us far upon it. This quest may be attempted by the weak with as much hope as the strong. Yet such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world: small hands do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere.” ?

[@shooshooshooshooshooter]

Gurls Talents I’m genuinely speechless haha I wouldn’t even know where to begin. It’s not a competition, GRRM and Tolkien are both allowed to be good writers. What is this nonsense point you’re trying to make...

[@CoolAsianGuy]

@Dark Wizard sure, lol. and the sky is purple also. lol

I should probably do a video on this, since I read all the books pre-shows. Personally ASoiaF is more entertaining to read like small comic books, but LotR is much more Epic (based in reality, with countless philosophical ideas and spirit written into it). LotR is Timeless. It’s like the modern Beowulf. ASoiaF is more akin to the over-saturated Superhero Genre. Quickfire POV Chapters, which always end in cliffhangers. In the end, GoT won’t be worth remembering. LotR is a Timeless Epic.

[@lambielikesit]

Personally, I love both equally. Thank you for such a wonderful video!

[@crabfoo7451]

Personally I like game of thrones better but I’m also a huge lord of the rings fan and I genuinely hate the little war between the fans, can’t we just enjoy them both?

[@paulwilliams2024]

Soviet Russia same

[@IlijaBossrock]

People are stupid. I love both series and i love Witcher books more than LOTR and more than ASOIAF.

[@draleks9112]

You should check out the Series by David Eddings: the Belgariad and the Mallorean. They are amazing Character Focused books that you would seriously enjoy my friend.

[@LocalHeretic-ck1kd]

I have to say that I read the Belgariad series from Eddings when I was like 15. I liked it although I think that adult me would not enjoy it. Its rather simplistic and kinda for kids comparing to likes of GoT books and Silmarillion.

[@Trendle222]

i have and read most of David Eddings, fantastic books, read all the Belgariad and Mallorean , still yet to read all the "diety' books he came out recently, but i have them , they next on my goal list!

[@iangoodnow6500]

Loved those books.But I read them back in 1995.lol

[@CptToro08]

The Belgariad is one of my family's favorites it gets re read many many times

[@jaromhawkins8513]

No matter what, no story (fantasy or otherwise) will surpass what Tolkien gave us. Lord of the Rings is truly a masterpiece that no one has matched or could ever match.

[@Divinemakyr]

Massive fanboyism.

[@raghav1026]

@@Divinemakyr true, but you can’t deny that basically every single work of modern fantasy has been atleast partially inspired by Tolkien’s works

[@Divinemakyr]

@@raghav1026 Of course not, Tolkien was amazing. But I consider the statement of "Lord of the Rings cannot ever be matched" to be ridiciulous.

[@raghav1026]

@@Divinemakyr yeah i agree

[@The-Last-Prime]

Please! Do a what if crossover between these two!

[@vincesergi7339]

Well 75 percent of the game of thrones citizens would be dead halfway through the story from killing eachother. Lol.

[@sigmaarmstrong8460]

Great and interesting video. You should consider doing a video comparing the similarities and differences between Star Wars and Lord of the Rings. They both adhere to the Hero's Journey, and the books may have had some influence on the Original Star Wars trilogy, even if a little bit, while the Original Trilogy may have influenced the Lord of the Rings Jackson Trilogy. And there may be several similar moments, arcs, and archetypes. Could be interesting. Maybe even a Harry Potter comparison could have some interesting points.

[@hynjus001]

At least we know Danaerys is unambiguously good and a force for righteousness

[@chewangia8]

I grew up with The LOTR films so LOTR for life. But ASOSAF and LOTR are both great works that pioneered the fantasy genre.

[@nolef7nu7]

What was Aragorn's tax policy?

[@alanpennie8013]

rog rogerson Tithing. It has the support of tradition.

[@alanpennie8013]

The really interesting question GRRM asked was whether Aragorn would attempt to exterminate the orcs because this would pose a genuine moral dilemma for our perfect king .

[@alanpennie8013]

@Private joker Still if any orcs continued to live in the Misty Mountains they would pose a potential threat to his realm.

[@alanpennie8013]

@Private joker Maybe but this is a retcon. We learn quite a lot about the orkish mindset during the narrative and they are not mindless drones. They have ideas and goals of their own.

[@alanpennie8013]

@Private joker It's my own response to the text but if you want "authority" Tolkien himself described the orcs as rational creatures and no worse than bad men. (Letters #153). In fact bad men( or more strictly men with narrowed moral imagination) is really what they are.

[@henrysmalley529]

Watched both series and read all of the books. Even though Game of Thrones is a magnificent series, Lord of the Rings is by far my absolute favorite fantasy series of all time.

[@jacobgrave2333]

One big difference is Tolkien and Martin themselves. Martin has said that he is an optimist, but he writes dark novels. Tolkien on the other hand was known to be nihilstic, yet he wrote hopeful novels

[@jamesbond1126]

If I had to choose, i would probably choose Lotr. But it would be so tough. They are both just amazing.

[@grandadmiral8173]

Well now the battle of kings landing is less reminiscent of the battle of pelenor and more like smaugs attack of Dale. Also I prefer the middle ground to the great works of Tolkien and Martin. Sapkowski, the author of the Witcher.

[@fantasywind3923]

I like Witcher mysef, read all the books (including prequel novel Season of Storms) and I also love Lotr and Tolkien works (my favorites), though Sapkowski's style is different to both Martin and Tolkien. I would also say there are some things that Sapkowski does better than Martin, in a way Sapkowski's witcher world is even darker than Martin's, but it also is more about protagonists journey.

[@grandadmiral8173]

Exactly why I love this series bravo 👏👏👏👍

[@Divinemakyr]

@@fantasywind3923 I never thought it was darker than Martin's, just 'as' dark.

[@fantasywind3923]

@@Divinemakyr well it may be a feeling, an impression, but a deep ingrained cynism lies behind the world of the witcher, we are talking here about a world where racism against the non-humans leads to genocidal massacres the pogroms on almost daily basis (and while it resembles the historical conflict between races in ASOIAF world, like First Men and CoF, but it is less seen because Children of the Forest and Giants are barely even there and there's no deep hatred or prejudice against different 'species' Wildlings even ally with Giants, humans in Westeros and rest of the world slaughter each other but for 'normal' reasons of wars, political conflicts and cruelties committed in them) ASOIAF mostly deals with humans and their dark ways, witcher world has the same, but also adds dymanic between various races who can be just as bad as humans are, in addition, witcher world is threatened by prophecied annihilation (in fact there are several visions of the destruction of the world mentioned, the White Frost of Ithlinne prophecy, and the destruction by the sun, also Curse of the Black Sun is rumored to be cause for apocalypse though it's treated ambiguously), there are loads of monsters that are killing people more 'common' danger in witcher world than Martin's. Disdain for freaks, oddities, non-humans, fear of magic which is much more prominent in witcher.

[@tturing5698]

I think one thing GRRM did really well and in a way which was very interesting is that where in Tolkien's work magic leaves as the ring is destroyed which is also a magic symbol, then in ASOIAF all the characters have stopped believing in magic at all, and are just as surprised as we are when magic returns. I think this basic premise makes the two works fundamentally different from one another. And that he mixes real politik with magic once magic has offically returned also make the two works fundamentally different since Tolkien is basically writing a Jungian fairy tale. In my opinion both are incredible pieces of work and I don't see why one must be better than the other.

[@a_fuckin_spacemarine7514]

Lord of the Rings didn't go off the rails and explode in a fiery blast in the final act. RIP other G.O.T fans, I know what it's like, felt since season 5.

[@jelleversteeg3244]

For me the magical aspect of LOTR trumps anything. I could watch a whole movie of a hobbit running through the beautiful scenery without any words or fights. That's how special and interesting the world is. of course I'm also biased since I have know LOTR since my childhood, which increased the magical aspect.

[@tabachoy5066]

Got would not have existed if Tolkien did not write his masterpieces

[@Divinemakyr]

Why is everyone here saying Game of Thrones? Game of Thrones is the shitty, fan fiction show made by HBO, A Song of Ice and Fire is the name of the amazing book series.

[@KTChamberlain]

Just yesterday I did a video talking about the similarities and differences between A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones to the Rankin/Bass film "The Year Without a Santa Claus." In that video I briefly mention Letters from Father Christmas by J.R.R. Tolkien. I recommend giving it a watch in case you're interested.

[@mihaiserafim]

You did bad comparing them in the first place and you did a bad comparison. Aragon by charging is leading his men, Jon Snow is abandoning his. Not the same. Tolkien has his vision, Martin wants to go left when Tolkien would go right.

[@Trendle222]

yea Jon Snow in no way reminds me of an Aragorn, like in No way at all, Aragorn was a ranger of the wilds that did many many deeds and quests for decades before The Fellowship of the ring. He was even a captain in Rohan for a number of years as well as Gondor years later ! Jon Snow … eh? lol wtf he is just a boy. Aragorn was the greatest ranger of the 3rd freakin AGE of middle earth ( aka Very High Level) and was 89 years old at fellowship of the ring, don't see how the 2 can even be compared

[@alanpennie8013]

@@Trendle222 The only real difference is that Jon is younger ( and wasn't raised by elves). Ok that's two

[@heliopolitan444]

Just a little detail from ASOIAF; one of the castles along The Wall is named "Oakensheild"

[@Hamid-rm1gu]

Lol 😂

[@DiracComb.7585]

Interesting design for the thumbnail. Is there a reason you placed each character where they were. I haven’t read the Song of Ice and Fire or watched Game of Thrones, but I do know that GoT has way more characters then LoTR, so what made u choose. Or was this just two pre-existing pictures stitched together. And I know that George R R Martin was attacking different angles and themes of the world, but I have heard that there is a significant amount of violence and sex, the main reasons I haven’t looked in lot GoT. Then again, to each their own. But I like how Tolkien kept his story vibrant and alive while still allowing it to be read by individuals of all ages without fear of exposing children to more adult topics.

[@MenoftheWest]

Thanks Paul! Actually, this is a piece of art that I have found! Credits to the artist, and if they contact me, I'll be sure to give them credit in the description! And I completely understand what you mean. These two fantasies are very different. Tolkien's works are more of a high fantasy, while Martin's is more gritty and realistic. It's not for everyone!

[@DiracComb.7585]

Men of the West one major difference between the two that is clearly obvious though, Martin ain’t afraid to push main characters off of cliffs 😂 .

[@alanpennie8013]

@@DiracComb.7585 Tolkien was happy to treat his characters horribly (poor, poor, Turin) in his elder days legends. But LOTR is focused on hobbits and nothing really bad can happen to such jolly folk.

[@DiracComb.7585]

Alan Pennie yeah, in the end, both authors attacked some different themes. But seriously, Turin never got a break.

[@silverdragon710]

Best video of comparing the two I ever seen, great job! Also Im really looking forward to you next video!! I’ve got as so far about 11,12 of Tolkien’s books and I’m reading them as I buy them but then Id like to read them in order and I can’t seem to find any good suggestions on what the order should be. Could you also by any chance include a list of all Tolkien’s at least Middle Earth related works, because the internet is a little elusive on that as well. :) Mae’govannen mellon!

[@marionbaggins]

You forgot the most important one: Ned Stark and Boromir *BOTH* played by Sean Bean and *BOTH* died!!! I don't watch and read Game of Thrones, but I liked to see this kind of video on it!!! Thanks for Martin and Tolkien, Until the Tolkien Reader Order TRO...Marion Baggins Out!!!

[@Fan_Made_Videos]

GRRM is actually wrong when he assesses JRRT's work as cliched tropes about good vs evil. Tolkien's entire legendarium presents from the beginning a cosmology that lays out the fall of the high beings (Valar) and their lesser counterparts. They weren't born as Snidley Whiplashes yearning to punish and destroy the "good folk". Tolkien also showed the folly of men, elves and dwarves not just a clear cut view that the Houses of Elf-friends = Good and Easterlings = Bad. There was definitely an allusion to bad influences and fear created by the Dark Lords to sway people from what was just and right. Even Faramir in the Two Towers shows us that he can look at the perceived enemy and show empathy for why they do what they do on behalf of Sauron. As for his own work GRRM seems too busy trying to adapt Medieval English history and reissue it under the guise of fantasy role play. There's just too much allegory between the two worlds for me to believe that he's creating a world of depth and deeper meaning. He would have been better served elaborating on the cosmology of Westeros, Essos, and Southros. Instead, it just reads out like a typical Dungeons & Dragons Bestiary of fantasy tropes.

[@Bobby14]

At least ASOIAF fans don't have amnesia and try to remind themselves over and over again which is the best, Tolkien's fanbase is simply one of the worst I've ever seen, and they still have the balls to call themselves friendly and civilized! Ugh! And judge everything by Oscars! I have lost a lot of respect because of the fanbase! If I meet a someone who will simply tell me that the movies are better because Oscars or because it just invented a genre, I will punch them in the face, can't believe there are Tolkien purists who don't let they're family members read anything besides

[@KTChamberlain]

I once remarked that the Numenoreans and Targaryens should get together and go bowling.

[@zatoka08]

Holy hell, I wish I haven't read the comments. And you call yourselves Tolkien fans?

[@Divinemakyr]

Exactly, everyone "Tolkien fan" here has a pitchfork and is trying to tear A Song of Ice and Fire to shreds for no apparent reason.

[@shooshooshooshooshooter]

Great video, love your work! A couple of small corrections...and please keep in mind that none of these are based on the canon from the TV show but rather the ASOIAF book series. Wargs in ASOIAF do have a tiny similarity to LOTR. A warg in ASOIAF is a person that can exclusively 'skin-change' into a wolf. Any wolf, be it a direwolf or regular one. A skinchanger can skin-change into any animal and sometimes person. The GoT tv show chose to dumb it down for their audience by having 'warg' be the universal word for this ability. Targaryens are *not* immune to fire. For example, many, *many* Targs have been killed by fire in the past. Dany's birth of the 3 dragons was a 'miracle' and one-time occurrence according to GRRM himself. Her fireproof ability is a show-only thing.

[@wobbegong4366]

With the shitshow that is Season 8 I predict a surge in ASOIAF book sales

[@OrkosUA]

Amazing! You saw similarities where I never would have even thought! Well done!

[@SolThax]

Malazan book of the fallen is way better than GoT. As for LOTR its just a pure masterpiece indeed.

[@rebelknight8223]

Yeah malazan is fantastic.

[@Divinemakyr]

Opinionated, and debatable.

[@Divinemakyr]

That's just a retarded opinion.

[@TheDunnDusted]

Lord of the Rings & Game of Thrones. Not Lord of the Rings vs Game of Thrones. I like that. So many times I see comments saying how Tolkien is the grandfather of modern fantasy and how so much is owed to him. But we neglect to understand how genres change over time. Science fiction began as futurist shining and exploration of ethical sciences. Now it has embraced elements of fantasy to create new worlds and new ideas. Going from Frankenstein and The Time Machine to Star Wars and Dune. While the traditional format of modern fantasy is accredited to Tolkien, and in some regards aided by CS Lewis, this new wave of fantasy has been aided along by Martins work. Just as he was inspired by Lord of the Rings and Silmarilian. new writers can look at A Song of Ice and Fire or Neil Gaiman or Terry Pratchett. Writing beyond the established, very memorable cliches established at the first half of the century. Kind of like how Tolkien looked at Beowulf, the Bible or Arthurian Legend and devise his own world to explore the impact of morality and choice in a war torn world rather than the rise of a chosen one overcoming evils on his path to glory.

[@sid2112]

Martin is a hack. Tolkien was an artist.

[@Divinemakyr]

And you call yourself a Tolkien fan.

[@grapeabbas7043]

I thought tolkien fan are full of mature people unlike star wars, guess I'm wrong.

[@sethmiller2534]

Howdy yoystan. I love your gleeful smile!

[@MenoftheWest]

And I love your's, good sir!

[@twistedvtuber9894]

Difference number 1, Lord of the Rings is actually good

[@dmitrykarpenko2271]

Men of the West - what a good name for the channel! As a quote (from where it was taken), it also implies, what masterpiece is superior.