Lore Debate: Is Doctor Franklin a Traitor or Hero?

What's up Lore Masters,
I assume that this is going to be a pretty .. mmm.. tough one, so let's try to stay civilized!
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[@Eatmydbzballs]

"Damn it General! I'm a Doctor, not a Murderer!"

[@jagsdomain203]

Should that be "dam it Jim I'm a doctor not a brick layer!!" Best line ever!

[@therenegade79]

Jerry Glaze I think I could even cure a rainy day

[@IronWarhorsesFun]

DAMN IT JIM I'M A DOCTOR NOT A WAR CRIMINAL!😂

[@chrissonofpear3657]

DAMN IT JIM - I'M A DOCTOR, NOT A WAR CRIMES JUDGE!

[@IronWarhorsesFun]

i'm a doctor, NOT A VIROLOGIST!

[@mrlake8808]

“Stand amongst the ashes of a trillion dead souls, and ask the ghosts if honor matters. The silence is your answer.” Javik (Mass Effect)

[@moilevin7088]

@@ObsdnBlck Shepard: I’m going to win this war and I do it without sacrificing the soul of our species.

[@weldonwin]

Sore Loreguy doesn't like spiders... Boy is he going to love the Shadows

[@kenarbes]

Spiders? We called them battle-crabs, because they kind of looked like nightmarish crabs.

[@eugenebridgesii7582]

weldonwin Spiders?! What about those 3rd space 👾

[@Zeroksas]

I always was laughing at the reason of the war. Minbari - didn't realize that a custom to approach new race's ship with open gun ports is a bad idea. Humans - not surprisingly attack Minbari and barely scratch their ship. Minbari spiritual leader accidentally trips on impact and gets lethal head injury despite fact that Minbari skull structure is 3-4 harder than human and becomes the only casualty. Minbari - let's kill all humans.

[@Zunile03scape]

I also see the Minbari as the real bad guys for that. This would be exactly like seeing the cannon ports open on an approaching ship during the pirate era. This is an aggressive posture for a ship and an attack or run action were the only reasonable options. As for Dr.Franklin he would be best served calling out the futility of a Bio-weapon, but his talk of his oath proves to be a poor argument on its own. How many years would they need for an effective strain to be made when they had hours? The General was right that the Minbari deserved pain for the attempted genocide but he was clearly too blinded with rage to get it that his hail mary had no time. If I'm remembering right in the show later season Minbari Vir chocks his human Ranger spy partner and gives some retort about how he supported Human extinction during the war. That scene made me wish the Ranger was able to stab the jerk in his empty heart.

[@kennethfharkin]

I can accept the misunderstanding of intention. The Minbari are a haughty race and expect others to bend to their customs. It wouldn't be surprising they expect the humans to understand their intentions with the gunports and not for a second think of how the humans see it from their own perspective. I'd wager the Minbari have cleansed a few races already... The death of Ducat was somewhat ridiculous as shown but it is simple enough to accept he was killed when the Earth ship fired unexpectedly.

[@SalinaMoonfall]

I always got the feeling that the Shadows set it up so a trigger-happy captain was the one to be assigned for first contact with the Minbari knowing he would start firing at the drop of a hat thus spoiling relations between the two races. And it played out exactly as they wanted, he was ready for a fight from the get-go, and the moment the Minbari showed even the perception of hostile action he started blasting. Yes, the Minbari shoulder some blame, but Dukhat recognized the mistake (too late) and might have corrected again had a trigger-happy captain not been the one heading the human side in the encounter. I feel like some folks miss the eventual context of the conflicts we learn about as the series goes on, the races were being manipulated and this was a prime case in my opinion if you squint to see the hand of the puppeteers we know are there. Franklin is an iffy case since if there wasn't a manipulative hand at play he made the wrong call, but in the context of the Shadows most certainly being happy if the Minbari got wiped out he was basically the one good man they didn't count on. It's easy to take the us or them approach, which again is what the Shadows banked on.

[@jamesedwards3923]

Religious Zealots equal irrational choices.

[@shadowmystery5613]

@@SalinaMoonfall If the Shadows set that trap up they thoroughly fucked themselves over by bringing exactly these two parties together in a twist of fate that will have defeated them 2'000 years ago and will defeat them again 2'000 + x years later 😂

[@mirageknight24]

Thing is Earth Force engaged Minbarai planet side throughout the war, some units even relishing in torturing Warrior Caste PoWs to death. Several members of President Clark's Night Watch had these rays of sunshine. It wasn't outside the realm of possibility to obtain autopsies on those corpses. By damning Franklin, you're pointing out the ineptitude of Earth Alliance. The dear doctor is just a mirror of his setting.

[@andrewrich3439]

"Stand amongst the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask the ghosts if honor matters.... The silence is your answer." Javik mass effect 3

[@GeofftheIronwolf]

He's a hero. One major flaw. If they created a bioweapon to target the Minbari there are children of Valen. Meaning there was HUMAN DNA in their gene pool. Meaning that bioweapon would blow back on the human race and slaughter both races. And better yet, it would create a major temporal paradox. So he might of let many died, but he actually saved trillions more. Cause no Minbari, no taking back B4 to fight the first shadow war 1000 years before and well we have a major paradox where the time line collapses on itself and a new one emerges and it's one where the shadows likely win. Then Earth is likely conquered by the shadows in the 1300 or 1400s rendering the entire point and video moot. Welcome to temporal mechanics.

[@southpike1000]

I tend to agree with you.

[@GeofftheIronwolf]

@@southpike1000 little Secret, Lore Master there already knows this. He's just having fun sparking debates.

[@mjbull5156]

Yes, but that is not Franklin's reasoning as there is no way for him to know that then.

[@GeofftheIronwolf]

@@mjbull5156 I know that. I'm just stating the consequences of what would of happened and he ended up being a bigger hero than he could of ever known.

[@mjbull5156]

@Geoff the Ironwolf - Understood, but you cannot give Franklin retroactive moral credit for things he does not know yet. You can only judge his decision based on what was known at the time he made it.

[@dafiltafish]

He is not a traitor. A traitor would be telling the Minbari what you are planning or hiding such a weapon, Franklin has done neither.

[@selderane]

I don't think you know what the word traitor means. You use it here and you called Jim Kirk a traitor to the Federation. Franklin was not working against the interests of the Earth Alliance. He was not a human agent of the Minbari. And, yes, he cannot be compelled to violate his conscience. That said, using a PsiCop to pull the information from his mind may have been appropriate given the circumstances. That's war. But a traitor? Not at all. No more than anyone who refuses to fight in a war. And your "mom with a dead son" cheap ploy works for ANYONE who opposes war or violence, or refuses to escalate it to a degree they find morally repugnant. In short, you're cheap, emotional, and swing the word 'traitor' around flippantly.

[@RikkudoSennin6]

Yet he would stand by and watch the Minbari slaughter his race. Including him after they kill everyone else.

[@seansmall9910]

I see you seem to not understand what happens when facing genocide. I hope such a situation never is dependent on your semantic arguing dumbass.

[@cbyzand]

The value of holding an ethical standard is that Franklin is a theist. He may flirt with the most nominalist theism, but he believes there is something that judges him and knows.

[@mrichar9]

Ya know whats fucked up? About half of the Babylon 5 cast is dead... the tragedy of Michael OHare is especially sad. I love this show and I think about all those who have gone beyond the rim whenever I rewatch.

[@diogenesesenna9323]

And now Mira Furlan has gone as well. It really is, as you say, fucked up.

[@dying0d]

You say every soldier dead is Franklin's responsibility, but the minbari dead would be too from any weapon created from his research data Rationalism can get ugly. Or pragmatism

[@kennethfharkin]

Good, let the Minbari die. They accepted no attempts to surrender and were looking to exterminate all of humanity. I'd light the flame to eliminate their entire race at that point and sleep happy knowing I had saved humanity.

[@MorphicStates]

You know bio-genetic warfare could have backfired on humanity there considering the shared DNA via Sinclair/Valen.

[@LoreReloaded]

Oh definetly

[@jeremyweaver9598]

Dr. Franklin is in the right, overall. I'm a retired Army Vet, with combat experience, so let me break it down basic style. No soldier can be compelled to do something that violates his conscience. It's been this way since Nuremburg. However, in the B5 universe, they have the Psi Corps. If the "terp" was willing to violate Psi Corps rules about "scanning" unwilling participants, say in a "black op", the fault would be solely with the General who ordered it, and possibly the terp who performed the scan. Dr. Franklin's notes would be in the hands of Earth Force, and Dr. Franklin's integrity is preserved. Win-win.

[@Elldallan]

That's not exactly what the Nuremberg trials concluded. The conclusion was that every soldier has a right and an obligation to disobey an unlawful order such as committing genocide. You have no right to disobey a lawful order(in the context of the Geneva Conventions) but which violates your own personal conscience. Such as for example a doctor wouldn't have a right to refuse to treat a homosexual soldier merely because he's a rabid Christian and doing so would violate his conscience. You could and should be court martialed for such a refusal to follow orders. You are however absolutely right that genocide would(obviously) be a war-crime and as such the good doctor has a right and a duty to disobey the order to be party to such an enterprise. Such an order would be unlawful and that would not change just because you were in a fight against extinction.

[@sebastianschulz6531]

Even the Nazis, did not punish wardens in concentration camps who refused to serve there due to obvious moral objections. There have been no records of punishments for refusal, there was care that those camps were not known publicly since the Nazis knew people were antisemites but not all would be okay with these crimes. This has been mentioned by German historians against some late arguments were people tried to save face allthough they were highly complicit in mass deaths in any immaginable way. I am too young to be any witness to any of this. I am of Eastern European heritadge and I once took objection to the label Polish concentration camp 20 years before Barrack Obama misused that term. German occupied Polish territories are not a dumping ground for Nazi responsibilities. But such wars like WW2 were used as an excuse by any side participating. There are doubts that dropping the atomic bomb was really necesary in Japan, the US turned a deaf ear to changes in Japan, the Japanese were not all willing to die until their last breath. The Soviet Union mass murdered the Polish officer corps over 14,000 officers where killed similar to a concentration camp death in Katyn(now Belorussia). The Japanese experimented with Chinese war prisoners in ways that let Mengele appear like an amateur. The Germans blamed any Jew or other ethnicity perceived as inferior for anything. They used any philosophy and scientific phrase, if necessary ripped out of context to build up the standing of their world view. I think if Franklin is so horrible what are the Minbari people then, especially Delenn? They must have known pre-war times that humans at least knew about the Minbari from other races the Minbari interacted with.

[@etischofer]

Unless you had an absolutely flawless memory, you wouldn't have the recollection neccessary to provide info as detailed as those notes and you would need the detail. While you may be able to scan Franklin for where the notes are, they may be barriers in place that make it so only Franklin can retrieve them. For example you gave them to an associate of another race outside of Earth Alliance space.

[@weathered19]

Jeremy Weaver as a fellow combat veteran I 90% agree with you. If this was a regular war like Iraq or Afghanistan. However, in this case you are facing a group that is intent on wiping out all humans. In this case, I think he is a traitor.

[@lizzyhannan3875]

@@Elldallan No truly Christian doctor would refuse to treat a homosexual soldier patient (how the doctor would know his sexual orientation has not been made clear) especially if it would lead to the death of the soldier .... totally against Christian teaching and would violate the doctors conscience. Just saying ... maybe rethink your example.

[@jamesp8164]

I Agree with Lore Reloaded entirely on this. Use of biochem and nuclear weapons of mass destruction is legitimate to prevent genocide. The Minbari were not forced to embark on a campaign of genocide. They chose it, and choices carry consequences. In the clip, Franklin asked how we would be different if EA used bio weapons. The obvious answer being “we won’t all be dead.”

[@neighslayer768]

It wasn't exactly an easy decision for Franklin either. Spoilers for season 3: In the episode Shadow Dancing (looking forward to that eventual battle breakdown) Franklin does have a conflict of conscience as he's dying from a stab wound. Ridiculing himself for not sharing his research among all the other mounting personal issues in his life. Basically he's damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. No matter what decision he makes, many will still die from it. Though I do question how effective a bio-weapon would be against a race as advanced as the Minbari, especially with how difficult it would be to send it to what are probably well defended Minbari colonies, much less the home world.

[@LoreReloaded]

That was a great episode and a good way for him to "find himself and talk until he didnt have anything else to say"

[@kinggoten]

Neigh Slayer I don't think said weapon would be very effective, as well as I doubt he notes would of changed anything. And I do believe he did the right thing by destroying his notes at least moraly I don't think he is a traitor for it but I do understand why people would see it that way. Also here is another point of view he hands over his notes... and just before the bioweapon is finished a peace is reached(likely what would of happened if he did hand over his notes), and then said weapon is deployed(terrorist, rogue millitary whatever..), I just do not see any good coming from developing a weapon that can wipe out an entire race.

[@dynamicworlds1]

@@kinggoten well, the use of it would enrage the Mimbari and the rest of the galaxy to the point of squashing any embers of hope of humanity's survival as it would ensure the Mimbari would never stop and no race would risk taking humans in in fear of their fury.

[@alexbrown1930]

DynamicWorlds I think this is the most important thing to think about. Look at how many in EarthForce hated the Mimbari after the war. If, after the war, these people had access to a bio weapon..what might they have done? Morally, Franklin was right, but, also, such a weapon was a death sentence for humanity, if not during that war, then sometime in the future. As long as humanity kept to its morals,mothered was a chance for survival, slim though it was. I mean, the Mimbari were only killing military targets. I suspect that the Warrior Caste would have told the Religious:"If you want to kill these Workers, do it yourself. We only kill Warriors."

[@GeofftheIronwolf]

Well as I said in another reply, MAJOR chance of blowback. Remember guys, children of Valen. Who's Valen? Sinclair. Meaning there is human DNA among the Minbari. Meaning that bioweapon could mutate to attack human DNA and completely boomerang on humanity and wipe it out too.

[@vodeankandosii3982]

Yep, you nailed this one. Send in the PsiCops and take it from his mind.

[@FaxModem1]

Here's a problem with pursuing any sort of bioweapon in an interstellar war. Let's assume everything goes right, and you make such a weapon, how do you use it? If you hit Minbar, and kill every Minbari there, there are still Minbari on every ship, space station, and colony in the Minbari Federation, who now have greater reason to wipe out humanity than beforehand now that you wiped them out. And that's assuming that any Earthforce vessel could get within shooting distance of Minbar to deploy the weapon. Instead, their best bet is to deploy such canisters at incoming Minbari ships, and hope it doesn't get hit by interceptors or incoming fire. Great, you have taken out one Minbari ship, there are still dozens, if not hundreds of MInbari ships that you still have to deal with. Best case scenario, you are somehow able to abscond with one of their ships and able to do R&D fast enough for it make a difference in the war. Hopefully, maybe. At worst, this ends up being a poisoning the well tactic, making sure that all of the worlds humanity once stepped on are uninhabitable for MInbari as well. Small comfort for said grieving widows and orphans. And that's just logistically why such a weapon wouldn't be good idea. Let's think about politics, imagine, somehow, humanity survives the war and wins via the weapon. Foreign relations, international aid, etc. would be affected because you are just as genocidal as the Minbari, if not more so. Establishing any sort of future relations would be rather hard, due to the simple fact that everyone would wonder if you plan on doing the same thing to every other race you don't get along with. After all, if you did once, whose to say you won't do so again? It might even get other races to wage war against you like they did the Dilgar, for fear of what you are. Now finally, let us get into ethics. Ethically, we run into issues of the greater good. If this is a weapon that won't work in winning the war due to impossibility of deployment. And it won't work long term politically due to backlash from relations, what is left? Ethics and morality. Morally, genocide is rather hard to swallow, because of how you're harming others. Ethically, under utilitarian ethics, this would not save humans, only get them condemned on the political stage, so it doesn't work out that way. So, this is realistically ethically irresponsible to give out medical notes to wage genocide.

[@randyhos7673]

I never though I would say this on a Babylon video but check DS9 that's how it could work

[@FaxModem1]

Randy Hos Could you please elaborate?

[@qi0988]

He's probably referring to Sisko's use of poison laced torpedoes on the Maquis.

[@FaxModem1]

qi0988 If that's the case, that decision was also rather morally debatable, and also completely different circumstances.

[@randyhos7673]

Kyle Sawyer The bio-weapon that infected the change-links that eventually forced them to sign a peace threaty

[@CowboyAdama]

Its not enough to survive, you have to be worthy of survival. To the mothers of the dead, he was working to preserve the integrity what they died for, Mankind itself.

[@ZontarDow]

Survival is its own worth.

[@CowboyAdama]

@@ZontarDow Sure but its more worthwhile to be worthy of it.

[@vidlink]

Says someone who has never been in a live or die survival situation.

[@CowboyAdama]

@@vidlink says someone who doesn't know me.

[@vidlink]

@@CowboyAdama: When you talk from such a lofty perch and speak of ethics from a completely unrealistic standpoint, I don't need to know you to know that you've never been in a life or death survival situation. It's easy to spot the speech of the ignorant.

[@ztyran]

The funny thing is a bio-weapon might've SAVED lives, and not just Humans. You set a trap where a few Mimbari attack humans and unleash a small amount of this plague. After showing what it can do, you contact the Mimbari and sue for peace. The deal being they stop killing Humans, and you don't try to take them down with you.

[@vichodeivis1219]

6:10 *Points at the ships leaving earth previous the final battle* _"Look at those vessels. They carry to the stars what soon will be the last of us. Our last hope for a new begging. They leave because there is a place to go. A place to seek refuge. A place where there is people that has no reason to hunt us to extinction"_ _"They leave because a single man said _*_No_*_ "_

[@pollall2793]

No to committed an Illegal order and a crime against sentience..... I'm with Franklin- He's in the right, the General was giving him an illegal order by ordering him to violate his conscience... Also--- He was ordered to MURDER AN ENTIRE F*CKING RACE! Of course he would say no- Who the wouldn't?!

[@fullmetalgamers1276]

@@pollall2793 they are doing the same thing. You can have all the morale high ground you want but it just puts your grave on a hill. Franklin was in the wrong because genocide is going to happen to your friends and family if nothing is done.

[@Thkaal]

You may see him as a traitor, but he had two conflicting oaths. He had to choose one. And as you said, he is the moral compass of the show. He sided with one oath over the other. And as for justifying it, Franklin himself could not do it. He apologized many times. Only one person ever forgave him, and that was because she was looking for her own forgiveness. As for military personnel, my father was career navy and In the Beginning was the first Babylon 5 story he ever saw. I asked him what would have happened in that case. He said all of it. And when he saw that Franklin was later on Babylon 5 as a doctor, he saw the position as a punishment, even though Franklin saw it as a gift.

[@lafeil]

I would put him prison for life

[@jeremyO9F911O2]

If the Universe was fair, then all the terrible things that happen to us, are because we deserve them. Marcus Cole

[@StealthyJim]

The general was mostly right about the research, but I'd not go so far as calling Franklin a traitor or having him arrested. The research data still should have been taken, with the objection being noted. It seems reasonable that being a military officer, Earthforce could have some right to claim ownership of anything related to his profession or position. But I think trying to forcing any cooperation or assistance beyond that is something Franklin could refuse under his professional oath. He did seem to be trying to quote some regulation to that effect, but was interrupted. In the end, Franklin was standing up for his principles despite the extraordinary stakes. And what good are your principles if you aren't willing to die for them?

[@FellSkyhawk]

Or put this way: What good are you're principles if you don't stand by them when it's hard? If you can't then they are pointless to have in the first place.

[@CountScarlioni]

"If we do the same how are we any different?" Franklin hits the nail on the head. He already made clear in the series that he believes in the importance of life regardless of whether it is wrapped in skin, feathers or scales. He won't elevate Human life above the life of other races. He meets a true test of his ethical centre and he passes it. Of course Franklin opposes the Minbari and what they are doing to Humanity, but he won't become the monster to stop them. It's not when the going is good that your ethics are put to the test. It's what you do when the situation is desperate. Those who become monsters in times of peril are the ones who truly lack morality. JMS again and again in the show goes out of his way to emphasise that the Minbari, the Narn or even the Centauri are also "people". Their spark of life in the cosmos matters every bit as much as does the life of a Human being. Franklin learned this before a lot of other characters did. Eventually G'Kar reached the same conclusion, illustrated in the rapport the pair struck up towards the end of the series.

[@danoarmstrong2597]

Just remember, when it comes to interrogations, it is NOT water boarding, if you use diesel fuel.

[@jasonlane1528]

1)-Earth's bioweapon kills the Minbari. 2)-Valen never brings Babylon 4 back into the past to stop the Shadows the first time. 3)-Shadows destroy everything eventually 4)- So Dr. Franklin not helping create a bioweapon saved everyone.

[@stormydragon2668]

"I completely believe in ethics and morality, but..." No, you obviously don't.

[@patecar20]

It's actually weird that they didn't just get a telepath to RIP the info. In real life that's exactly what would have happened.

[@andrewwblanchard6037]

" THE MORAL OBLIGATION OVERRIDES THE OBLIGATION TO ANYTHING ELSE INCLUDING SURVIVAL "

[@DJRonnieG]

That man inspired me to become a Foundationist. To your point, when you frame the context of kill or be killed, your points gain merit.

[@rurrjh]

What may be more important but overlooked, was Steven knew the location of a crashed Minbari ship. It was the Jump engines Earth needed to get to grips with

[@DavidMacDowellBlue]

There are a lot of reasons bioweapons are viewed as crimes against humanity--or, in this case, life. The lesson of B5 drummed in over and over again is "ALL LIFE IS ONE." That doesn't mean you don't defend yourself or others. But it also means you don't commit genocide because you're scared. Life is more than humanity. Life is also the Minbari, the Narn, the Centauri, the Shadows, the Vorlons, etc. The view that "life" (or at least valuable life) is your tribe at most and no further is precisely what leads to atrocities. Had the captain of the Task Force felt less fear, less desire for promotion, a bit more loyalty to his own ideals and more compassion for other people, this mess wouldn't exist. When people act primarily from fear and desire (please not the "primarily") the result is life at its most brutish. Life at its best, its most hopeful, its more wonderful is motivated more by loyalty and compassion. And it was the Minbari remembering which saved Earth Alliance. If in fact mankind was to fall (and nobody had any guarantee that Franklin's notes even could develop a weapon, or that such a weapon would work,or that the MInbari wouldn't be able to counter it, or that the Minbari would not retaliate with a far more advanced bioweapon of their own) then the question is--what shall our race go out as? This "ends justifies the means" thinking always forgets there is no end--consequences are forever. They do not end. To be sure, individuals die. In fact every single one of will die. What will we leave behind, though? And are there acts you will not commit even if it means your own life, or the life of others? I hope so. More, neither you nor Earthforce knew what the future held. They knew the Minbari were not destroying non-military targets, and that the Minbari themselves were mysterious--as evidenced in what actually happened in the story! In fact had Franklin's notes led to successful bioweapon what then? Well, for one thing the Shadows win the war. Other races in their terror almost certainly start using bioweapons as well. Against humanity for one--especially since they are known to have committed genocide using one and would sooner or later enter into the conflict as the Shadows wanted (remember, the Shadows just wanted everyone at war--for their own good!). Philosophically, ethically and in terms of raw practicality, Franklin did the RIGHT thing.

[@MammonDaughter]

I'm glad his Walkabout somewhat addresses this point about him.

[@Paleorunner2]

I agree with Lore Reloaded. When fighting an enemy, any enemy, the goal should be to win overwhelming. If it was politically ok for the Mebari then it is ok for the humans. The good part about a bioweapon is, in an interstellar war, you can make something that will end all life with that DNA profile and still be ok yourself.

[@TroyPacelli]

History is written by the victors. In a war that escalates to genocide, the winner is the survivor.

[@sebwilkins]

Paper notes wouldn't be of much use, biogenic weapons still require samples. Also the weapon would have been of little usage in space combat, an area where earth force couldn't even get an effective weapons lock. Sure it might work a little on land based invasions, but then the minbari would stop using ground invasions and use orbital strikes, I doubt the weapon would have changed anything. Ideally what they needed was the ability to overcome the Minbari scanner and stealth tech.

[@isimiel3405]

breaching pods + bioweapon ;)

[@isimiel3405]

just cover it with starfurys or send em in bulk all you need is one pod to get through if they jump right on top of em then good the closer the Minbari ship the better a breaching pod is a piloted craft you don't need a weapon lock that not true kamikaze attacks got through multiple times

[@isimiel3405]

you don't need to weapons lock on to ram something you can yeah know fly towards it you just need one pod to get though they probably did use kamikaze nuke runs because the bioweapon probably wouldn't be used in ship to ship it would probably be deployed on colonies or minbar itself

[@DLordSadow]

Ben Finny Which will work exactly ONCE! After that, the Minbari would forgo ground assaults and just glass over every Earth colony without a second thought. Sure, you might end up taking out an entire Minbari Army Corps, but you aren’t going to turn the tide with such a weapon. You WILL piss the Minbari off even more so than they already were.

[@danoarmstrong2597]

You do not only develop a bio-weapon, you develop the weapon, and the CURE. Infect the boneheads home planet, when they start dropping, offer the cure in exchange for a cease fire. Hell, if your biotech folks are really good, the cure only puts the plague into a temporary dormant state (but remains highly contagious), and without reoccurring booster doses of the cure, it becomes active and lethal. Force the Mimbari to surrender, turn over all their tech, and become your bitches.

[@esaande6935]

Fortunately for Franklin, you weren't able to do any of that you proposed. It's also very fortunate for you that these things would have broken several laws that would have eventually cost you your career and possibly your freedom (if not your life). Franklin's father would not have taken kindly to what you would have done and would likely had you dealt with in as harsh a manner as you would have dealt with his son.

[@LoreReloaded]

Would have given my life to save humanity...absolutely...signed and sealed

[@absalomdraconis]

@@LoreReloaded : And if you succeeded then instead you would have doomed humanity. Maybe humanity would have survived on long-range ships if they didn't use a bioweapon, but after one the stragglers would have been hunted down, and even the Centauri a d Narn would have given up any that they had. When attacked by wasps, what you _never_ do is _keep_ _swatting_ _them_ , because it does _not_ fix anything. The only thing a biological weapon realistically could have achieved is to convince the Minbari to bombard all of the planets instead of sending ground forces. And they probably would have even used biological weapons.

[@CdnFN1]

Hero, and in Star Trek the General would be obvious villain no grey

[@Trygvar13]

Humans started the war when they attacked the Minbari and killed Dukhat, the leader of the Council. They got what they deserved. And quite frankly when I watch the news I'm not sure we are worth saving. Franklin stood up for what he believed in and for that he is indeed a Hero.

[@elrond3737]

Franklin's discovery's would have taken time to develop into a weapon and then they would have to deliver it which would be more time. I don't think it would make any difference

[@LoreReloaded]

Since humans and minbari share heritage it could be fatal to humans to

[@seekertwo1]

Had Earth deployed the bioweapon and eradicated the Minbari, how would the other races look at the EA? And how would that affect the "community building" prior to the Shadow War? Honorable combat and defeat vs. victorious space nazis......which is better?

[@BioGoji-zm5ph]

@@bruhiusmaximus5386 And then what happens after the weapon is used? Is the weapon shelved? Destroyed? Are backups made that could be misused by others later on? Is the weapon recreated by other galactic powers as a new arms race begins, with everyone becoming paranoid at the thought of such a weapon being used against them?

[@Nicholas.Rogala]

I disagree with the premise. I agree that in the face of a genocidal force Franklin should have turned over his notes, but that wasn't necessarily the case from his perspective. As far as he was concerned the genocidal part could have been just military rhetoric. Remember, the Minbari weren't killing civilians. They were only attacking military targets. The PRESUMPTION was that they would go back and kill the rest (and I'll admit that assumption appears to be correct though the Minbari, aside from Delen at the beginning, never explicitly state their goal was to kill everyone). By the Battle of the Line the Minbari were pretty much done with the war. I personally doubt they would have the patience or desire to hunt down every single human merely to exterminate them. As for the efficacy of Franklin's notes, you would have to believe that he somehow had unique information or insights that Earth Force wouldn't already have. Do you honestly believe a ship's doctor would learn more from the autopsies of a few random Minbari as opposed to the piles of bodies Earth Force undoubtedly already had access to to test and dissect? I don't. I always felt the general was being hyperbolic and taking his anger about the war out on anyone he could. Franklin had just caught the general's attention and felt his wrath because of the war. NOT because Franklin had some kind of unique insight. From that perspective Franklin would be totally justified in refusing to take part in genocide himself. Even if he didn't believe his information would lead to anything. In fact he always seemed more concerned about the turning over of the notes as opposed to the contents of them.

[@allnamesaretakenful]

It doesn't matter which perspective people look at it from, Franklin didn't want his research to be used for Genocide. He didn't want to be another Ender. Case Closed. Conservative fans of Sci-Fi and Gaming are some of the worst people on the planet. I'm so sick of them.

[@CanuckGod]

Zachary Grigley As a conservative, the feeling's mutual, by the way. Going back to the original topic though, while Franklin should in no way be forced to help create any weapons against his conscience, there's a vast difference between doing that and turning his notes over to Earthforce who is trying to come up with something that might stop the Minbari from genociding them first - Stephen admitting as much to himself during his near-death experience during his Walkabout, where it seems his motivation for what he did was more about his ego at the time than anything else. Sometimes it's not about pure morality, but about choosing the least shittiest option from amongst a bunch of shitty options. In a way, it's much like the dilemma that Captain Sisko has during "In The Pale Moonlight", and I've yet to see anyone argue that his decisions were reprehensible in that instance.

[@Nicholas.Rogala]

@@allnamesaretakenful I literally don't understand the point of your comment. We both agree that Franklin didn't want his research used to create a biological weapon (regardless of whether or not it would have been usefull), but you disagree with my reasoning? And because you disagree with that reasoning I'm a Conservative? I'm not but I doubt I could convince you of that. Ohh, you're a troll. Never mind. I'm going to ignore you now and talk to an adult.

[@Nicholas.Rogala]

@@CanuckGod "Never let what's moral get in the way of doing what's right." - Isaac Asimov

[@RedKytten]

@@@allnamesaretakenful Okay, first of all, lets try too leave attacks on other people off these pages, there is enough of it elsewhere on the internet. Something that I think might help is too understand that 'Conservative' is a relative term. A British conservative falls on a different part of the political spectrum from a German conservative or a Spanish conservative or a Russian conservative. I am a conservative as well, but as a Canadian, my political leanings are left of even the Democratic party in the USA. I am guessing that @CanuckGod is also a Canadian, so is likely more 'liberal' than you are, even as a conservative.

[@sawyerawr5783]

I think if nothing else, this shows how war bends morality to such a heavy degree. Good and Evil is all well and good but the second place prize in war is annihilation.

[@marcfoster715]

Having played Descent Freespace, I kinda wonder what the Terran/Vasudan Alliance would have done if they had a bioweapon they could use against the Shivans...

[@BibleTeacher4U]

I totally agree with you on this, any threat to my life or the lives of my family, should be met with the best option I have to neutralize the threat. This goes double for situations like this where all human life is at stake. Doctors do have a responsibility to save lives, but they also have the duty to save civilization.

[@umage1]

He was not a traitor to his conscious. I think his decision is based on what happened in past human history, which has a lot of human suffering because of a lack of medical ethics. As far as the consequences, there would have been a price anyway you look at it. Lets say they got the information via torture or telepathy. With torture, it is highly probable you would lose a lot of valuable information. With a telepath, he/she may die if the doctor dies and then there is the fact that psicorp was not exactly supportive of normal humans. Others have pointed out the development and logistical issues for bioweaponry, but not quite all the reactions. If successfully deployed, the Mimbari could easily escalate the level of savagery and deployed there own bioweapons. It would have also put the human race in the same category as the Dilgar and the Drakh. The Dilgar and Drakh are the only ones in the lore that I know of that where known to have used bioweapons (not including the first ones). Looking at the reaction of the other races, the Dilgar were eradicated and the Drakh had a relativity peaceful race, Abbai Matriarchy, declare a jihad against the Drakh after the bioweapon attack on Earth and built dreadnoughts that might have rivaled the power of the Centauri. Considering these reactions, I have no doubt that Earth in it weakened state, would have more enemies that it did not need. Concluding this ramble. While Doctor Franklin was insubordinate, I don't think he was a traitor. I think he may have saved us from a bigger disaster (never underestimate the ability to dig a bigger hole). Still, the General was right, people were going to die. Just reminded me of a quote " You are a good man, with a good heart. It is hard for a good man to be King"

[@kennethfharkin]

Franklin's only ethics are the ones he chooses to hide behind such as when he operated on the child in Season One's episode Believers. Orders didn't matter to him. Patient's will didn't matter to him. Only Franklin's own values mattered to him. Franklin is a horrible person. Great character, horrible person.

[@kennethfharkin]

@Rosamund Powell Stay on point. The issue here is Doctor Franklin and how his "morals" are tied to his sense of superiority. Nobody could possibly know any better than him and screw any oath he may have taken to the contrary.

[@TheMsLourdes]

Not an atheist.. A Foundationist. And he had an ethical conundrum and he was a doctor sworn to do no harm. He wasn't a standard scientist or physicist. And, he made the right call. in.my opine.

[@Snapper314]

You call him a traitor. Some might call him the Bravest Human in history. Because there are some things worth more than winning or losing, & maybe even more than living or dying.

[@ottersirotten4290]

He was willing to sacrafice all of Mankind on the Altar of HIS Morals. Call him brave, i call it Selffishness of the highest Order

[@orionstark]

The Psi cop thing is a good point. Why in Valen's name didn't Bester get called in and have Franklin's mind hollowed out? It actually would have been an interesting piece of lore if Franklin had picked up some alien implants including a telepathic shield for his mind.

[@eatabagovdiks2056]

Ok. You cant Justify letting people die other than just being the better person morally than the one doing the killing. and arguably it was the human morality that made some of the Minbari start to waver on the war.

[@Adamwofford]

That's what the Drakh did to us, with the Shadow plague, and in universe earth is on the dooms day clock

[@sirhenry9313]

Lore, I'm sorry but I think you missed the point of Ethics and Morality. The Ethical code cannot, under any circumstance, be bent, broken or left. This is why it is held so highly. This is why it is brought up in sci-fi so often. This is the ideal that we, as humans, strive for. The unwillingness to bend our code, our way of life, and lower ourselves to others. I know you saw my post on your last video, so I won't go repeating exactly why I biogenic weapon is a REALLY STUPID idea whenever it used, as good as it may seem. It is, however, the same code that stopped America nuking the entire German, Japanese, and Italian countries during WW2. It is the same reason we don't just nuke anywhere we think there may be a war, or there may be trouble. It is the same reason the Federation doesn't invest in long-range tactile warheads for the founders, or romulans, or klingons. Its why the SGC doesn't nuke every single known Gua'uld base. Not everyone in a war in guilty of war crimes. Not everyone is guilty of killing. Not everyone is giving the orders. Not everyone deserves to be killed. And I would explain it to the mother the same way. Vengeance is enticing. It's easy to give way to your emotions, to want to hurt when you have been hurt. It's natural. But how can she ask me to put that same hurt on thousands if not millions of mothers, brothers, sisters, husbands. At some point, someone has to stand up and say no. That doesn't make him a traitor. And a militaristic state, under martial law, make the general a dictator, not a leader. He defied a dictatorship, not the state. And he had to love with his decisions, whichever way that went. Whether that meant watching more die, or himself, his sister, his family, and knowing that he had that research, but also knowing he can never, EVER, give that research up. Hes not a traitor. He is a true hero, who held to his morals, his beliefs, and his ethics. The things that define him, and what he thinks humans should be.

[@lunatickoala]

I think you're thinking of that other franchise when talking about ethics being unbreakable, and they definitely weren't unbreakable during WW2. There was no code stopping the United States from nuking Germany or Italy; it was Italy and Germany surrendering before the nuclear weapons were available. And Japan was in fact nuked. While we cannot know how many more would have been dropped, we do know that at least some invasion plans called for nukes as pre-landing bombardment in place of artillery (the dangers of fallout were not well understood then) and there were discussions on whether to build a small stockpile before dropping more or to drop them as they came off the assembly line. In the real world, the thing that ultimately keeps armies from committing any particular act isn't a code of ethics but the risk of retaliation by the other side. Look up what any of the colonial powers did against less technologically developed peoples who couldn't fight back. Belgian Congo was particularly nasty in that regard. Reality isn't usually so kind as to allow a neat and simple rule to apply in all circumstances. It's why any set of rules or laws will over time become rather byzantine with numerous clauses covering countless corner cases. There's a term for someone who holds fast to a set of beliefs - particularly a simple set - regardless of the circumstances: zealot.

[@sirhenry9313]

@@lunatickoala oh nicely stated and well reasoned argument there, however let me retaliate here: It doesn't take much time or planning to send a hunk of planes with nukes out. It was the Allies giving the opposition time to surrender. It also didn't happen as immediately as you seem to think. There was a long time - and many casualties - between the 2. The fighting was still prevalent on many fronts, and other bombs were available. Yes, Japan - well, 2 cities - were bombed. 2 cities. Not the capital. Not multiple countries. Not multiple capitals. Not army bases. 2 cities. That was a reasoned decision made, and included a civilian target. It was also a military decision. There was a stockpile made already that could have been sent out. There was already a loss of life happening. The armies had already proving they would go to the end to win. They would literally make suicide runs to show their resolve. Why not nuke the lot? Why not bomb capitals? Or all cities? Because of the civilian loss of life. How could you live with that? How could you justify that? Lore asks how would you justify your decision to a mother who had lost or is losing a son: well how do we do that now? How was that justification made in this circumstance? Or against the Huns? Or for that matter, any war where liency was shown in any way against the opposition? You say to look back in history, and I think you need to take a look yourself. Do we celebrate those who "took that bold step" and killed everything in their way, man, woman and child? No. We don't. It has happened in every culture at some point in history, and it's also been buried, tried to be forgotten, and recognised as a horrible thing. Now, as for zealotry: why is the medical profession the most trusted profession in the world? Because the majority are zealots when it comes to a "few simple rules that are unbreakable." Those rules aren't hard but they can be hard to follow. They aren't written in stone, there's no fear of retaliation for relenting with them. However following them and holding those ideals is often difficult to do. That's the situation. He knew his research would be used to create a biological weapon that would be used to murder wives, children, farmers, disabled, daughters, singers, actors, architects, doctors, nurses, lawyers.... Everyone. Not just the military. Not just a targeted area. Not just a calculated few. Everyone. As I stated above I made a comment on a previous video discussing how dangerous a biological weapon would have to be. The basic run down was it has to be resistant to extremes, spread through contact, touch, water and air, hibernate long enough to infect everyone, deadly and able to mutate quickly. The risk there is that it would easily mutate and kill humans as well as minbari. And Centauri. And Narn. Possibly Vorlons too. And every known race and unknown race that a minbari ship or minbari person had contacted once they had contracted the disease. It becomes a very simple decision, in a way, doesn't it? Its not easy to hold to your morals and your ethics. He isn't a zealot for holding to them either. He's a doctor. A medical professional, who is acting professionally. The general is the one who's acting like a zealot and a dictator. Any other concerns?

[@dennisalfonso7699]

What good are ethics and morality if there is no one left alive to practice ethics and morality? In extreme cases, such as self defense, you have to sometimes break the rules in order to survive.

[@sirhenry9313]

@@dennisalfonso7699 agreed, however, was this the time and place for that? Franklin has been out there, had seen the fighting, had patched together more people that any of us can probably count. If you want a good show to see the toll that kind of work does to someone medical, I recommend you watch MASH. There are some brilliant episodes that properly highlight the toll it takes and how hard it is. As for whether it was actually the time or place: cab you think of a single military government who would have held off of using it if it was developed? Do you think that general would have held back? Would he have stood there and told them to surrender? Threatened them with it? And worse yet, knowing what he knew of the minbari warrior caste and what they now knew: would they have surrendered? No, it would have been used, and the loss of life would have been on his hands. And he knew that. As someone who has sworn an oath and made it his life's work to help keep things alive - whether they be human or alien - he would have actively participated in taking life. Premeditated. Knowingly. The medical profession is not something you can leave at the office. You can try and step away, try and distance yourself, try and make it about the numbers and the science.... But it never is. You look after people. Individuals. With their own stories and histories and hopes and dreams. It will catch up with you. It always does. How can someone like that actively take part in mass genocide of a single species, let alone possibly hundreds?

[@dennisalfonso7699]

Sir Henry It is now quite obvious now that Dr. Franklin was willing to sacrifice the entire human race to preserve his ethics. In a way, he is also knowingly allowing genocide to happen, except on this case he was willing to have his own species exterminated. If there was a time to break the rules, this was the time and place to break the rules. Basically your damned if you do, your damned if you don't.

[@mattleitch7265]

Damn vorlons knew it was going to happen....did nothing, that massive ass fleet could have split them up and forced them to the table. We need both of your races, chill

[@DavidLemmo]

Vorlons already had a longstanding relationship with the Minbari, the humans on the other hand were too young at the time to be of consequence. They had only recently made it out of the Dilgar war, and in their haste to make contact with new races, foolishly pursued contact with a race more alien than any they had encountered before. Even the Centauri were not so foolish to risk provoking the Minbari. To the Vorlons, the Minbari war was a minor skirmish compared to the First Shadow War, and the Dilgar War. Besides, the Vorlons are relatively reclusive, like the other ancient races, they do not intervene in the conflicts of younger races, to much involvement could compromise their isolation, and border security, risking exposure of less advanced civilizations to their technology.

[@kristheobserver]

One can argue till the end of time if Franklin should have handed over his medical research on the Minbari but in the end it wouldn't have changed things one iota. Before the incident with General Fontaine we know Earth Force had captured Minbari and tortured them. This comes from the book version In the Beginning. Captain Sterns discussed this with Sheridan shortly before the Black Star attacked the Lexington. In the Episode Ceremonies of Light and Dark it was revealed that an unnamed friends of Boggs tortured Minbari during the Earth Minbari War. So we know Earth had access to dead Minbari for medical research before Fontaine confronted Franklin and after he did. Earth clearly choose not to use this information for whatever reason. See this video here clearly discussing that Minbari were tortured during the war kzbin.info/www/bejne/ZqXdomiffbSakMk

[@_Reverse_Flash]

All systems of morality must be predicated on survival.

[@TheMrPeteChannel]

1,000% agree with you Lore.

[@RememberEaster1916]

I'd say Franklin is still a hero. To use the U.S. military as an example, every soldier, sailor, airman and marine is ultimately responsible for their own conduct. Like Franklin's invoking the Hippocratic Oath to do no harm if a person is willing to violate one oath, what does that say about any future oaths the person will swear. All of the deaths in the conflict rest solidly on the people who were willing to disregard dire warnings and as the saying goes fools rush in where angels fear to tread.

[@BioGoji-zm5ph]

Stay Civilized? Oh, the desire to reference Gremlins 2: The New Batch is so strong...

[@jameslrbrand2002uk]

Actually LR I'd argue your wrong both in assigning blame on Franklin and on claiming he should disregard his oath to heal. The circumstances are entirely irrelevant to the validity of the oath you don't just toss away the hippocratic oath for self preservation of your species. As for who is truly to blame its actually General Leftcourt. Londo Mollari clearly warned them to send 1 ship only but what did leftcourt do? He sent a fleet commanded by a trigger happy jar head.

[@ZontarDow]

I'm pretty sure that Hippocrates would disagree on not throwing out the oath for self preservation of the species. The oath covers harm through inaction, meaning if upholding the oath means more harm then violating it, then the oath dictates that in such circumstances it be violated. Controversial though it may be, it's why doctor assisted suicide has been a thing as long as the concept of a doctor has.

[@abraxaszee8953]

Sending multiple ships wouldn’t have caused a problem if he had just listened to warnings about its commander, Captain Jankowski.

[@seanheath4492]

Honestly, he doesn't have a good option. Either way, based on the situation at the time, he's an accessory to (attempted) genocide. I kinda agree that withholding his notes was the least bad choice, though. And considering that "In the Beginning" was meant as a new-viewer introduction when the show moved (I think), it's a heck of an establishing moment for Franklin.

[@mangalores-x_x]

How many did the Minbari actually kill because weirdly after the war mankind still had her two dozen colonies... it's not really clear what the Minbari fanatism was all about, but they did very little genociding for the claim that they were genociding...

[@barrybend7189]

Yeah targeting military targets only.

[@ojisanhoward8940]

They bee lined straight to Earth to hit our homeworld, after that's done and dusted any colonies could be eliminated at their leisure.

[@isimiel3405]

"the war of vengeance quickly turned into a holy crusade by the Minbari to exterminate humanity. "

[@DrewLSsix]

Its literally spelled out in dialogue, they hit all military targets, then destroy earth, then back track and eliminate all colonies until there is nothing left. They stopped just short of earth so only the military had really suffered at that point.

[@sixfootkiwi6957]

I always found the casualty count very low too. It's around 250,000 people. Compared to today's population, that's hardly genocide. Even if it was only military targets being wiped out, that's still less service personnel than in the US navy today. A global defence force tasked with defending Earth's colonies and assets in space, should total way more. On paper, it doesn't seem like we were on the brink but Earth was going to fall and it looked like whoever was left would be hunted to extinction at the Minbari's leisure.

[@Ceyx000]

His right to individual conscience is greater than an appeal to circumstance. He's a Doctor, he knows people die. What if: Franklin knew any bioweapon engineered successfully against the Minbari would affect Humans+. Consider: Minbari have the highest immunity of the Elder races. I forget the episode but there was an outbreak of a disease on B5, the Minbari were the only ones that could minister to the plague victims. "Peace is not the opposite of War, the opposite of War is Creation... Peace Bishes."- Empedocles 435 B.C., Mt Etna.

[@thedinochromecommand]

Humanity First! This is why the Emperor of Man was right.

[@jmferr2011]

A Preston Generation Tech would like you.

[@thedinochromecommand]

@@jmferr2011 im a fan of theirs.

[@atoll2453]

The corpse-man can only delay the inevitable - we all know the shiny toilet is failing (trying to get DE to fix it? probably more trouble than good). Only by shedding all negative emotions and embracing the Greater Good can humanity truly find safety and bliss.

[@MATTIUS]

And yet the imperium falls apart at the seems while your emperor rots in his chair.

[@pollall2793]

Thats Warhammer..... I think?

[@andyl8055]

It’s an interesting question and it comes down to what you think Franklin knew. We know as watchers of the movie what the Minbari are doing because we hear it from Londo in hindsight, and we have cameras next to the Grey Council. From his perspective did he know that extermination was their fate? They hadn’t had contact with the Minbari so they didn’t know that it wouldn’t end, and Franklin as a doctor might not have access to all the intelligence of Earth Force (infact he certainly wouldn’t). From his perspective perhaps he’s an objector in the same vein as someone that refused to participate in the Manhattan Project. Life and death, battle of civilisations... they said it all, and then the atomic bomb was used on civilians twice. If Franklin knew what we knew then yes he really needed his head screwed on properly. If not, then his position is more defensible.

[@mariokajin]

Precisely then it becomes important to stand up with the oath. Because if he didn’t do this/that then he would not be any different than the oppressor. And at the end you are going to die anyway. So let me ask you a question, for what actions you would like to be remembered? A good corpse or a piece of crap corpse? Sorry for my crappy English.

[@LoreReloaded]

Noone would remember humanity if you lose.. a foot note at best.

[@bujtorm]

Let me quote Javik from Mass Effect 3 for you: Stand in the ashes of a trillion dead souls, and ask the ghosts if honor matters. The silence will be your answer.

[@mariokajin]

Lore Reloaded No matter what humans couldn’t use the weapons on minbar cruisers because they cannot even track them. What do humans use their weapons against? A civilian colony? And enrage the minbari even more? And another thing it was the short sighted military that caused the war, let them solve the mess they created. Yeah the minbari saluted humans with open gun ports. But the weapons weren’t loaded. And then the military shot and ran away. That was really heroic. Idiotic leaders and their minions create problems and then the working people are called to solve the problems for the greater good. Fuck off with that kind of stuff. It’s happening all around us now. But I don’t want to play this game. My government doesn’t represent my people it only represent the government. And it’s widely known that they aren’t connected with reality. They care only about their asses. Same feeling goes on to the brokers and financial speculators .... shall I continue? Those are the ones that don’t produce anything else than crap. Except taxes and taxes are crap too. Stealing my hard earned money for their fat asses. But I won’t unsubscribe ha ha ha...

[@bujtorm]

Lady Wanderer I still believe firmly that morals and honor are luxuries for those whose very survival isn't in danger. It's one of the biggest hypocrisy in the existence of mankind. Just like a policeman in a firefight has less than a second to decide if that man in front of him is an armed assailant or a kid with a toy gun and whether he should pull the trigger, but there will be an entire committee and a dozen investigators working over months deciding whether his decision to pull the trigger was justified. Morals are worthless to the dead. Only the living care about them.

[@mariokajin]

Matt Bradock I’m rather dead with honor than alive and ashamed of my own actions for the rest of my life. And then after I’ve been dead for good I would be remembered as a criminal and hated for the rest of the time and even after that. I for me want to leave the world in a better shape than I have been put in/on.

[@BattlestarZenobia]

How dare you! How dare you! A Doctor, a Healer a man who swore to do no harm does the right thing, lives up to his ethics and refuses to do something absolutely abhorrent. He should be lauded, he did the right thing. If you did what you did it would be the most cruel a pond evil act that could ever be turned on someone. How dare you!

[@SpockvsEgon]

Back when I was a theist, I believed that it was more important to follow one's conscience, even if it led to my death and even the death of everyone because it's in God's hands. After losing faith, my perspective changed. I would have been on the side of the guy making this video: Who cares about morality if the human race goes extinct? Unfortunately, I hit a snag with that thinking. Eventually, everyone and everything will die. The sun will burn out. The universe will either collapse back in on itself to a pre-big bang state, or it will continue to expand to the point where no life can be supported. The human race will go extinct, and we can't even build a monument to ourselves to let posterity know we were ever here. There is no end that justifies the means. Therefore, I am back to my starting place. I have to side with Franklin, even if it meant the death of mankind, I would have to follow my conscience.

[@Duke00x]

In the show he said he destroyed his notes/records on the minbari. which means there was nothing to find.

[@Boomer2k6]

I think Garak put this very succintly in the DS9 Episode Rocks and Shoals The Vorta is willing to betray his Jem'Hadar and give the Federation team their whole plan of attack, basically sending them into a complete slaughter. An Ensign pipes up saying that even in war there are rules and Garak quickly responds by saying "Correction: Humans have rules in war, rules which make victory an awful lot harder to achieve in my opinion" and Sisko backed Garak up with the black and white viewpoint of "We are at war, and given the choice between us and them THERE IS NO CHOICE!" Later this is highlighted when the Federation won't give the Founders the cure for the Section 31 plague even when it's found. Because they know they have the Dominion dead to rights if the Founders die and giving them the cure is potentially signing the Alpha Quadrant's Death Warrant. I can 100% see Franklin's viewpoint and you can only admire his morals. If this was a "terrorist" situation, i.e. Nightwatch has cornered him on B5 and ordered him to develop a biogenic weapon for aggressive use vs the Minbari, and Franklin did the same, he would be lauded as a hero willing to sacrifice himself for the greater good. However, this is an active war for survival, make no mistake this isn't a border conflict, the Minbari will literally wipe out humanity, and in the end that's what they are, HIS morals. He isn't simply throwing himself on his sword for his morals, he's throwing the whole human race, potentially, on the same sword and, in the end, who is ANYONE to make that decision for the entirety of humanity? Is his decision right in the overall scheme of the universe? Possibly. The Minbari, after all, are far more advanced than Humans and have a better chance of fighting off the Shadows etc. but is he a traitor to Humanity? Sadly, yes.

[@TruthHidden]

We'll, the generals giving the order to build a weapon are also making choices for humanity. The difference is, Franklin is willing to make decisions on the bigger picture while knowing knowledge is rarely perfect; so he uses general principles knowing what the worst probable outcomes are. Either way, the Mumbai would win; but it could be worse if genocide was reciprocated rather than avoided.

[@shadowhunter0815]

Question: Would you trust a doctor, you know has broken his oath? Would you trust the people, who were making this doctor brake this oath? Doctor Franklin was in a position, where he would be damned anyways. And i'm honest: I don't know, how i would have acted in his place. I've never been in such a position and i wish noone to have to make such a choice. Would i have decided, to keep my morals and try to be the better person or would i cave in amd become (at least in my eyes) a monster. Thing is: Not everyone is a Benjamin Sisko, who could accept the role of the villain, for the greater good. Not everyone is a Janeway, so unhinged, to make some very questionable decisions and not only critic other for similar decisions but also be able to look into the mirror and tell herself, she did nothing wrong. Doctor Franklin had to make the choice for himself and i don't see any betrayel in it. Yes, you can criticise him, for this decision and point out, that without this weapon, many humans would die, but this is a moral choice everyone has to make for themself. And like others have pointed out: Dr. Franklin would have been a traitor, had he helped the Minbari, which he didn't. He just didn't want to build one of the most cruel and daming types of weapons.

[@BioGoji-zm5ph]

He was basically Dr. Serizawa (Original) in his reluctance or hesitance to use or create a weapon of mass destruction that could then later be used by others and cause a new arms race.

[@ColonelHess]

In one of my first D&D games we went up againts an army of Mindflayers, my character had over the coarse of the game become a docter of sorts and I have to admit I did go for this option, while the group looked for the Maguffin to save the world, I slowly but surely worked on my weapon... >=D sadly the game ended before the big confrontation due to the DM running out of persional time (he had a heavy work load) but I have to say, some times I wonder what might have been lol

[@deathtoll5000x]

Honest to God, Had Franklin handed over the research, in my opinion, the war would have ended in mutually assured destruction...

[@iclisious]

Remember an oath is an oath NO MATTER WHAT. Est Solamnis Oth Mi'Thas.( My honor IS my life). Would you damn the souls of humanity just for their bodies to live.

[@ottersirotten4290]

" Would you damn the souls of humanity just for their bodies to live." this Guy "saved" only his own Soul and sacreficed all of Humanity to do so becouse he valus his own Morality higher as the survival of his Species. Some People consider that noble, i consider that as Selfishness of the highest order

[@peterkottke2570]

Ironically It is quite possible that Frankiin's actions helped save the human race. If the humans had unleashed a biogenic weapon on the Mibari in the best case scenario they'd probably of scored mass casualties but not hurt them militarily much. Given that the Minbari take great offense when the enemies have gall to kill them back while they're being slaughtered, it's likely that the Minbari wouldn't have stopped when they did regardless of the results of their "soul" scan.

[@Demolitiondude]

The weapons restrictions of 1901. The Geneva convention. Battle Tech's Ares convention.

[@unknown9126]

Not sure how much those things actually matter if everyone is dead

[@thedinochromecommand]

Those only apply for development of weapons against humans by humans.

[@Demolitiondude]

Whole sale slaughter, wmds, chemicals, bioweapons, and other war crimes are not either. It'll show the Galaxy that humanity fought a losing war and didn't employ those options of mutual destruction. Villaving the mnbari.

[@isimiel3405]

conventions mean nothing if your dead

[@Demolitiondude]

We're not Nazi Germany either. Correction, yet if the Trump administration has its way more.

[@manlystranger4973]

There is a much larger question here about the value of oaths in general. Why do people take oaths? Why are concepts such as honor and loyalty prized above life? These are the questions great drama is based on.

[@madisonjameson4635]

Challenge excepted. You glossed over who's hands actually have the blood on them, by casually admitting Earth started the war. (And lost points for ignoring facts, to support You're own argument). The captian that ordered the firing of the 1st shot, carries the blood on His hands. Including the feelings of the mother who's child dies, and the Mother of the child about to die. Not a Doctor who did His Job. And the General is the Traitor. That Code of Conduct the Doctor started to quote, was interrupted by the General, in order to avoid Premeditation charge for His treason. Here is Your Same Question, of feelings. What if that General were ordering a Doctor to Murder the Child of that Mother. You'd sing his virtue? Don't start nothing, won't be nothing. This is the folly of allowing a Military to represent a People. Militaries only think of ways of WAR. Not the consequences of their actions, for the people they represent. They opened fire, out of fear of 1,000 crewman dieing on that ship. Not thee Billions that would be endangered by pulling the trigger. Don't start nothing. Won't be nothing. The Mimbari already fought a War of Extinction. Against the Shadows. They ain't gonna take a Sue of Peace. War is Survival to Them. Ya pays Ya $$$, and Ya gets what Ya get. Earth paid a few shots to save 1,000 crewman. And Billions were going to die. A Doctors old reasearch notes are somehow going to Save the Species????? Oh, the Hyperbole!!!! The War was too far gone and lost by then to engineer a bio weapon. It would have taken years to understand the Mimbari DNA, then even more to make this Bio Weapon. Earth had Months at the most. And They knew it!!!!! And this doesn't factor in- Earth had already been capturing Membari. Already had access to the prisoners that That General needed for Heir Furuer Wunder Weapon. Plenty of Episodes detail Membari prisoners. I recall an episode where a guy describes how to make them scream and how tough they are and how long it takes for them to bleed out. Your aurguement only makes sense if this piece is the Whole of what You experience and nothing more. Bad writing and poor continuity for this piece with regards to the greater whole. To better answer You question- Yes, I'd say it to that Mother qho's child will die. Because nothing that Doctor had researched was going be useful in time to stop Her child from dieing. She should at least be given the dignity of the TRUTH, instead of a feel good lie. Earth started War with the wrong species and was about to die because of it. That simple. Don't Start Nothing. Won't be nothing

[@basedeltazero714]

"You glossed over who's hands actually have the blood on them, by casually admitting Earth started the war. (And lost points for ignoring facts, to support You're own argument)." The Minbari approached with weapons hot, after isolating the Earthforce fleet. They acted aggressively, the humans responded aggressively. They started the war, they continued the war, they are monsters, full stop. Almost anything is justified in defeating them. The plague may or may not work... but it's something. "Earth paid a few shots to save 1,000 crewman. And Billions were going to die." Alternative theory: Jankowski holds fire. The Minbari, having silenced and trapped him, fire their open and charged weapons, wipe out the task group, and, without warning, launch a planet killer against Earth. There is, in situ, absolutely no reason to think this situation any less likely. "The captian that ordered the firing of the 1st shot, carries the blood on His hands. Including the feelings of the mother who's child dies, and the Mother of the child about to die. Not a Doctor who did His Job. And the General is the Traitor. That Code of Conduct the Doctor started to quote, was interrupted by the General, in order to avoid Premeditation charge for His treason. Here is Your Same Question, of feelings. What if that General were ordering a Doctor to Murder the Child of that Mother. You'd sing his virtue?" If it would save humanity? Yes.

[@AdamCollings]

Uncomfortably thought-provoking. But that's what I love about Babylon 5.

[@TentaclePentacle]

Traitor, if your species is facing extinction you do everything possible to stop it. Anything less is traitorous.

[@anthonymenzer2462]

Let's be real, even if Earth Force had taken his data and used it to produce a meaningfully powerful bioweapon in a short timeframe, that would still not have been enough to turn the tide against the Minbari.

[@Plasmacore_V]

Great video, 100% correct. Dr Franklin's refusal to help his own species from being exterminated is *wrong* and it makes him a traitor, period.

[@AODRHINO]

I would love to be alive, but what is life without honor?

[@donwon7592]

It’s sad how much lore hates religion. SMH.

[@LoreReloaded]

..I dont..

[@LoreReloaded]

In fact I get a ton of hate for being so critical of the religion bashing of trek

[@getyourgameon1990]

It has nothing to do with religion i am so confused

[@LoreReloaded]

@@getyourgameon1990 I mention he flirts with atheism which apparently makes me an atheist and hater of religion?

[@getyourgameon1990]

@@LoreReloaded Maybe? Idk enjoy the B5 videos keep it up i been watching since the first one. That makes no sense since he does seem to be. I forgot he believed in god till you said it lol

[@Raibartroudrix]

I agree with you, in such a situation where you're not merely at risk of losing but being exterminated then you do what ever you have to to win.

[@randallb84]

Ah, hmmm, based on the hippocratic oath he is completely in the right. But I do agree with you on the fact that he possibly had the key to winning, it's a really nasty position for him. Either way he would be considered a monster, crappy.... This is a no win situation

[@gunmonkey1185]

One word for you Lore Guy: Hubris.

[@cmedeir]

You hit the nail on the head. Nicely said.

[@nikolauswhite3127]

I'm so sorry your child has died, if it's any consolation we have created a biological plauge that is slowly ripping apart from the inside and liquefying the organs of the membari men women and children. Assuring that they die as painfully as we can manage. I'm sure that will bring your child back.

[@LoreReloaded]

right?

[@TDBoedy]

it won't be the last time he pulls that maneuver.

[@michaelkelly9847]

The controversy is basically the difference between a difference how someone in the Medical Corps in the U.S. Military looks at the situation versus how most everyone else looks at the situation. I started out my military career outside the Medical Corps and might have agreed with the author of this video. When I switched over to the Medical Service Corps, even though my job wouldn't have put me in direct contact with patients, it was stressed to us in ethical training that everyone in the Medical Corps and Medical Service Corps should look at a patient as a patient regardless of who they are outside of our care. Friend, foe, and rank don't matter, only the nature of the injuries matter (even if that person is a terrorist targeting little children with IEDs). It is also against regulation to give medical advice to help with interrogations, even if getting the information will save many more lives. The reason for this is two fold. First off, we are force multipliers, dedicated to saving lives. If we start thinking down the road of causing harm, it usually makes us less able to do our jobs effectively. The second reason mirrors a philosophy in Akido. If you corner an opponent they will fight with everything they have. On the other hand, if you give them a way out, you can defeat your opponent with less effort(both Sun Tzu (The Art of War) and Miyamoto Musashi (Go Rin No Sho (The Book of Five Rings)) wrote something similar in their respective book). By violating this ethical code of conduct, in the short run you may have significant tactical and strategic gains, but in the long run, it will cost much more. Yes, I agree with the author of this video that it would be hard (maybe near impossible) to explain this to the loved ones of the people lost to the Minbari. The Earth Alliance, with their technological level compared to the Minbari, might have had limited success deploying a biological in the tactical situation they were in. The Minbari, were in a much better tactical situation to end all Human life if they started doing it. From the psychology of the Minbari that I've seen in the show, they wouldn't have thought of the option to use biological weapons on the Humans unless Earth Alliance did it first. Overall, with some exception, the Minbari people are less adaptive than the Humans and more resistant to changing their ways. Once they change their ways, it would become tradition as if they had been doing it for centuries. If the Earth-Minbari War didn't end the way that it did, I think, based on what we see of the psychology of the Minbari, that Humans would only survive spread among other populations throughout the stars unless they came up with a weapon and/or tactic equivalent to the Atomic Bomb at the end of WWII. Just as I believe that because of the psychology of the Japanese during WWII (the Japanese, psychologically, are more of a different people post-WWII then the Minbari are post Earth-Minbari War), they would have kept fighting until the last person without the terrible devastation of the Atomic Bomb.

[@Tobiasfowler]

Franklin is a Traitor or a Hero depending on which side of the fence you sit on. As a traitor he is a person who will let his species die rather than wipe out another. As a hero he is a person who shows the reason why humans deserve to ‘win’ the war. Every death being on him is just a reflection of the guilt of the general. Your final point is difficult to answer but I’ll as you another, if someone you cared about had a brain tumour would you sanction experiments on every other person on the planet with a tumour to gain the information to potentially save them. Franklin’s data may or may not have saved humans and it would have taken time to develop and deploy the weapon, maybe even not affecting the fighting forces of the Minbari who were isolated on their ships. It’s the B5 equivalent of Tuvix, whomever wins, someone loses. I would like to think I would side with the Franklin but I cannot truly answer. That’s my thought on it.

[@househendoe]

As a Marine, hyperbolic interpretations of the Hippocratic Oath like these makes me glad The Corps uses Navy personnel for medical, dental, and religious services. I will say this though I have never served with a Corpsman or a Doc that hasn't fired upon the enemy or was at least willing and prepared too. Hell, my units' Doc was aircrew and regularly flew missions and my Corpsmen were in Camp Guard and QRF rotations same as us. Doc Franklin while also one of my favorite B5 characters is the victim of a morale narrative on all sentient life is equal which is the seed from where we get the ISA, but if the UCMJ in the Earth Alliance is based at all on the current U.S. Military's with the implied Russian influence heavily featured in the show he would be charged with Treason on the spot and a firing squad would begin being selected, especially since there were NO charters, conventions, or treaties as shown 10 years after the war during the show. Also fun fact about the UCMJ there is no presumption of Innocence you have to prove that before a Military Judge usually no lower than a O-6 or above, your Constitutional Rights are waved during active duty. *Humans are NOT genetically Minbari the only reason the Earth wasn't wiped was because they captured SINCLAIR remember they said SOUL of Valen, if they had taken anyone else Humanity would be a dead race like if they tested Sheridan for instance there would have been a BOOM that day as Susan would say.

[@jonmcgee6987]

Franklin was in a bit of a catch 22 or Kabayashi Maru situation. If he turned over his notes, another race could die. I.E no guarantee that a successful biological weapon could be made to use against the Mimbari. If he didn't then of course Humanity would be wiped out. It would be a matter of choice. Be directly or indirectly responsible for the death of a species. And the question of if he could live with himself and be able to cope with what he did. An example in fiction, legends material unfortunately. Would be in the Death Star novel. The gunner who actually started the firing sequence, fired the DS super laser. Had trouble dealing with what he did after destroying Alderaan. He wondered how people would react when they learned he was the greatest mass murderer in the galaxy. And he delayed the firing sequence long enough for a pair of proton torps to take out the DS. In the end, it all depends on how a writer creates a character. And Dr. Franklin is just a well written character that made a choice most people would not agree with. Something to enhance and make a better story. Sorry for the rant and not actually addressing your points. Just trying to make one myself.

[@uroborous01]

GRRRRRAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH HOW DARE TOU MAKE A THOUGHT PROVOKING VIDEO! Truthfully i really enjoyed this. I also agree that in certain situations the choice to pull the trigger or press the button; should be automatic and without thought, feeling, questioning, or second guessing, the action should be performed as a mechanical, blank, nearly robotic act. Because the consequences of inaction, could mean the life or lives of your loved ones, and countless millions of your own people. Sometimes you should pull the trigger and not even blink.

[@KatrinaLeFaye]

This actually was the reason I originally subscribed to your channel, even though I am much more pro Franklin, an amazing actor in person by the way, as a moral hero. Your idea of Franklin betraying his moral ethics, one of not just humans but that of many races from his hitch hiking days, is very much like the original National Socialist push on their doctors. Had he given the information he gained from administering aide to cause death, he would, as the German doctors of WWII, be committing crimes against, "humanity," or in this case sentients. First do no harm, it isn't just an ideal for this character it is who he is. When in the series, due to stims pushing him to try and help as many as possible, he was nearly the cause of death he walked away from everything, trying to become a non-entity. "I will use treatment to help the sick according to my ability and judgment, but never with a view to injury and wrong-doing. Neither will I administer a poison to anybody when asked to do so, nor will I suggest such a course. " "Into whatsoever houses I enter, I will enter to help the sick, and I will abstain from all intentional wrong-doing and harm, especially from abusing the bodies of man or woman, bond or free. And whatsoever I shall see or hear in the course of my profession, as well as outside my profession in my intercourse with men, if it be what should not be published abroad, I will never divulge, holding such things to be holy secrets." The original oath makes it pretty clear he cannot give the information at all ever no matter the consequences to himself or suffer eternal damnation essentially. While you say he has atheistic tendencies he is very much a seeker of the Divine and believes in such in his heart and soul. He could not, as written, ever betray this without betraying himself and as previously mentioned become a non-entity.

[@podemosurss8316]

Neither one nor the other. A big foreshadower, that's what he was. Being a medic and having treated Minbari patients, he surely knew that Minbari and Humans were almost identical, in fact the Minbari ultimately surrendered when they discovered it: because of the shame of learning that they had been killing people that would be considered of their own kind (a Minbari never kills another Minbari). Now, imagine that he gives all those data to the military: they would be entirely shocked to learn that the people that is killing them are almost equal genetically and physiologically (just a bit stronger). I don't know how they would react, but the war would never be the same for them.

[@raw6668]

Actually, I have a question for the General, how would a biological weapon work against the Minbari? As the Minbari was not invading planets, they were fighting primarily in a space and can destroy all life on a planet in space. Not to mention Minbari space was supposed to so protect that no one but Minbari and First Ones could. So even if Franklin help, the weapon would be useless.

[@nikolauswhite3127]

If you throw away your humanity to save humanity, you haven't saved humanity. Can you save paradise by introducing the serpent.

[@jamesmartin9401]

Bioweapons have a tendency to not stop at borders or at original specifications. When it runs out of targets, it adapts.