Lore Revelations in the Shadow of the Erdtree | The Chill Zone Reacts

After a couple of weeks with the DLC I think it's alright to share some spoilers with you here - this is a reaction to VaatiVidya's overview of the eldenring lore
Link to the original video:
• Lore Revelations in th...
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[@AWACS_Snowblind]

*2024* Drake: Not beating the allegations Dr. Disrespect: Not beating the allegations Mohg, Lord of Blood: _Surprisingly,_

[@1wayroad935]

He's still a horrible person who worships an outer god of blood. But in this specific thing, he was innocent.

[@lukasruston8618]

@@1wayroad935 Eh, debatable, it could be seen that he viewed what he was doing as vengeance for how he was treated even though he was a rightful heir of the Golden Lineage. Whilst the Formless Mother is a god of blood, that doesn't necessarily make it evil, in fact it's heavily implied that the reason Mohg worshipped her was because he viewed her as his real mother, not Marika since the Formless Mother not only accepted him but she also gave him a power that nobody else had at the time; Bloodflame. And sure, he was planning a revolution against the Golden Order and all of its followers but can you really blame him when he was viewed as a curse just because he was born with different features? When others of his kind were killed or enslaved just because of their horns? I for one would argue that Mohg's acts were entirely justified now that the DLC has clarified that his kidnapping of Miquella was because he was under Miquella's influence.

[@Onbutteredtoast]

⁠​⁠@@1wayroad935wow such bigotry against a religion that employed a lot of albinaurics(a marginalized race) I hope you reflect and do better

[@aidan2139]

​@@Onbutteredtoast Mega based

[@Whyareyousofoolish]

@@1wayroad935 That's literally a Fromsoft staple. That same description fits over a dozen other characters(Most of which are in Bloodborne but that's besides the point.)

[@aidanker-foz6511]

JUSTICE FOR MOHG

[@Mare_Man]

He's already dead, though. Can't execute the Lord of Blood twice

[@lovelessamphitheater4287]

Nah..saying Justice for mohg is the same as saying justice for any mass murderer who didn't really rape his victims before he killed them..he only tried to kill them..its just one evil trying to use another evil..

[@smokyjuian1054]

​@lovelessamphitheater4287 every demi God in the game is a mass murder or flat out insane

[@lovelessamphitheater4287]

​@smokyjuian1054 that's what I'm trying to say.

[@v0x712]

People were actually theorizing Mohg might have been somewhat sane to very and actually quite friendly but we don't know much but mohg did earn justice his name was named mohglester and now mohg and we killed the real lester

[@blueveil3277]

I really want more Mohg lore, specially before Miquella's control. Like, Ansbach is not only a seasoned fighter, he is a scholar, and a very polite and honored person... Does that reflect Mohg in any way? Imagine if Mohg was actually a quite chill dude.

[@matheusmillion]

Mohg is also called "Luminary" and is possibly sealing the Frenzied Flame from being found. He might be a little crazy and worship a god that "craves a wound", but he has drip, he had a man among men under him, his knights have drip.

[@lukasruston8618]

Honestly, with everything we know about Mohg at this point, his whole revolution just seems to be a way for him to try and stop the oppression of his people and others suffering similar things due to the Golden Order. I just wish we could've seen him before he was charmed by Miquella because the charm itself seems to be the thing that's making him seem evil and obsessed.

[@buckyhurdle4776]

He's just an abandoned kid that found comfort in a new mother who embraced his "birth defects"

[@Eximius_Lex]

Well as for “not a seasoned fighter”, if you observe how Mohg fights, he just flails his trident around with no care in the world. He often uses one hand to swing it. I bet that’s why it was hard to learn his attacks. The other ones, such as the bloodflame spells, he just cuts away for the boiling blood to spill out, making a mess everywhere. I want to see a professional sword fighter react to some of games’ enemies and bosses to see what’s the most optimal way to use their weapons as well as the sizes of said weapons and the enemy themselves.

[@Mare_Man]

​@lukasruston8618 "Revolution" is an _interesting_ way to describe a pack of bloodthirsty cultists

[@Foogi9000]

17:02 Vaati never mentioned it but in the Japanese version of ER the word Miko is used instead. So this isn't just some shaman village it's a village of essentially shrine maidens. The Hornsent raided and kidnapped her village and tortured them eventually putting them into the jars.

[@akinari6870]

Yeah, and as much as shamans in general are cobsidered to be wild, spiritualists whom are kinda sketchy, shrine maidens have always been portrayed as purely good devotees, kind, helpful, bringing warmth and healing others. And hornsent just decided to massacre a settlement of (generally percieved as) pure-good people.

[@PostieGames]

Also interesting to note that Shaman, like you mentioned, refers to Miko which in some of the earliest historical periods of Japan would have been part of the ruling class. One thing that is important contextually (which you covered) is that Shaman is this instance refers to a woman. This all dates back to what is essentially prehistory, but it is super interesting to nerd out over.

[@Ablestron]

I think Radahn wasn't Miquella's first choice. In the base game it is heavily implied that Miquella first attempted to resurrect Godwin, but ultimately couldn't because his soul experienced true death by destined death. The Halig tree could be seen as Miquella attempting to replicate the Erd Tree, this is probably how he learned to manipulate the souls that would pass into the realm of shadow, as that is the Erd Tree's function, and why Miquella's body can act as a doorway to the realm of shadow. Also it is implied that Marika was behind Godwin's assassination, was she plotting in order to impede Miquella? Did she shatter the Elden ring because her other half, Radagan, was close with Miquella? A lot of lore mentions them being close. Was Radagan compromised? Is that why he attempted to repair the Elden ring? to keep the bridge between Erd Tree and land of shadow open for Miquella? Gawd the revelations from the DLC effect the entirety of the lore! The final piece adds context and event intent behind a lot of the characters actions!!!

[@powerfist1340]

I just realised an interesting possibility, when Marika grew a conscience and realized her mistakes, did she see Miquella making *the exact same mistakes* as her, and move to pre-empt him?

[@vhalrougelarfouxe]

Can you show me where it was implied Marika plotted against Godwin? That is such a crazy plot, dude!

[@Niemandzockt]

@@vhalrougelarfouxe The Black Knife Assassins are rumored to have all been Numen with close ties to Marika, and translations reveal that Marika's betrayal of Malikith is more a betrayal on their goal of sealing away Destined Death, which suggests her having a hand in it's theft.

[@Ablestron]

@@vhalrougelarfouxe look at everything to do with the Black Knife Assassins and the "night of black knives" which is the assassination plot that ended with Godwin the Golden's death. Like someone else said, the black knives are reportedly all numen women (marika's race; tree like, long lived, seldom born) with close ties to Marika herself. Interestingly, what if Godwin wasn't the intended target, and simply got in the way? The items associated with the Black knives implies they used every method of magical concealment possible, and every God killing magic known. Considering Miquella's charm is so insanely busted, Marika probably knew trying to confront Miquella directly herself would just lead to her subjugation, making assassins the best option. If Godwin was charmed at this point, or simply in the wrong place wrong time, he could have taken the hit to save Miquella. At some point after this assassination plot, Miquella would retreat to the Halig Tree, and convince Godwin's forces to join his banner (items imply that godwins remaining followers joined Miquella in hopes he would resurrect Godwin) then Marika shatters the Elden ring which kicks off the war between the demigods. We see the Golden Capital under attack by some other army, what army would be loyal to someone other than Marika at this stage? Probably Miquella! We know he sent Malenia and his/her armies, including Godwin's forces (the general who has the golden needle) toward Radahn, its conceivable his forces also attacked the golden capital. Then due to the stalemate between Malenia and Radahn, this forces Miquella to consider other means to gain a worthy consort. Leading to him charming Mogue and entering the plane of shadow.

[@user-zp8kj2cl9g]

It's explicitly indicated that Miquella was a simp for Radanh since they were kids. I wouldn't be surprised if all of the bs that Miquella has done was for the only purpose to get his cheeks clapped by his older stepbrother.

[@1wayroad935]

If someone said that this was actually just Elden Ring 2, I'd believe them. Edit: I have ended up interpreting Radahn clinging to life so desperately as him not wanting any part of Miquella's plan. He would rather be insane and stay alive than die and have his soul used by another.

[@vhalrougelarfouxe]

It looks right to be honest. Its not that he was stopping the stars from dropping, its him dropping to the land of death that he was trying to prevent.

[@1wayroad935]

@@vhalrougelarfouxe To be fair, the DLC has definitively shown us that anything coming from the stars is always bad news. So he's actually pulling double duty.

[@vhalrougelarfouxe]

@@1wayroad935 man is damn chad through and through

[@jean-pierrepolnareff9987]

But theres still so much left unexplored, WE NEED ELDEN RING 2

[@communisticus191]

@@1wayroad935 I mean thats only sort of true, considering that "long ago, we began as stardust, born of a great rupture far across the skies". Based on a lot of what is in the DLC, it seems to be suggesting that a large portion of the life in the lands between ultimately came from the stars (which is likely why the stars control fate for so much of the life in elden ring)

[@Ultimaniacx4]

29:37 Oh god, can you imagine what kind of cosmic horror gave birth to the Three Fingers? I never thought of that. It's so refreshing whenever you find someone reacting to these videos and actually following along and presenting their own theories and questions. I see too many people reacting to Vaati videos and pausing to look at the camera and say "i sTilL hAvE nO iDeA wHat'S hApPeniNg"

[@LastSecBloomer]

The Three Fingers are just a symbolic representation of primordial chaos. Just like in Dark Souls 1, in the beginning everything was melded together and then things came into existence, started separating and breaking away, the Greater Will being one of them. The Chaos seeks to melt everything with Frenzied Flame and blend it all together as it once was, to bring everything back to that primordial chaos state. In that regard, it's fitting that there are Three Fingers as the agent of Chaos, ready to "reunite" with Two fingers and form a whole hand together, a symbolic representation of that great melding of everything into one Chaos, as it used to be aeons ago. They weren't tied to the Greater Will to begin with and they acted on their own accord, so they weren't affected by Metyr losing sanity...

[@YamiAi]

I bet the three fingers also come from Metyr

[@LastSecBloomer]

@@YamiAi They don't for two reasons. One is what I said before, the Three Fingers are manifestation of Chaos and completely separate entity from Greater Will, they're not affiliated. Two, Rememberance of the Mother of Fingers specifically says she is the mother of all TWO fingers and Fingercreepers...

[@YamiAi]

@@LastSecBloomer The three fingers could have started out as a fingercreeper, grew bigger until three fingers, abd somewhere along the way betrayed Metyr and swore allegiance to frenzy flame. We just don't know.

[@scotthadden9816]

One thing I'll say I disagree with; I don't think Marika EVER aligned with the Hornsent. Betrayal is a matter of perspective, given how horrific they treated the shamans, and that we don't even really learn WHY they did so, it's just as viable to believe that the Hornsent view any shaman that rebels against their established order as “betraying them”.

[@1wayroad935]

Leda even said that they aren't saints, they just lost the war. It's not really a nice thing to do, but you understand why Marika started the genocide.

[@YamiAi]

Yeah, I can see that perspective. I find it unlikely the Hornsent would ever ally with any shaman. Unless the whole saint creation through the pots could maybe create someone the Hornsent would view as holy. If then that person attacked the Hornsent maybe they would view that as betrayal. But I don't think Marika ever was potted by the Hornsent. Instead Marika got her powers partly by allying with the Fingers and mainly through the gate of divinity.

[@meechriney]

I see your point but it’s also possible Marika align with the hornsent specifically to betray them. That’s the scenario that makes the most sense to me.

[@fishnutz5196]

I agree. Betrayal could just be referring to her replacing the Crucible with the Erdtree

[@gurligrisninja]

In regards to the age of kindness Miquella would bring, I am reminded of the thing Aldia told the player in Dark Souls 2, "No matter how tender, how exquisite... A lie will remain a lie"

[@matheusmillion]

I can picture Aldia shrugging his tree shoulders seeing another wannabe god trying to establish a lie as the status quo.

[@amannamedsquid313]

And at the end of the day, Humans (and other species and races) are still enslaved to the will of the Gods. And with the whole compulsion/brainwashing thing that Miquella can do, they are even more enslaved than they were before.

[@brycekrispiez714]

I really like that they humanized a lot of these characters. Marika and Messmer especially. It’s a sad detail that in the story trailer you can even see the scars on Marina’s hands likely from a tooth whip. So even she suffered that abuse firsthand from the hornsent

[@nightcorewb4949]

14:40 I don't think Malenia was supposed to be Miquella consort since she's an Empyrean. She's in the same race as Miquella and Ranni she just support him to win.

[@revenantwolzart]

Dear Gwyndolin, you will remain as the superior femboy in Fromsoft history! No lord of light can eclipse your dark sun

[@msbkaioken136]

Miquella is definitely better because he actually has feet.

[@revenantwolzart]

What about snakes as feet 😂

[@msbkaioken136]

@@revenantwolzart I mean, it's certainly unique a little too bitey though.

[@texsusred73]

Mohg wasn’t the Mohglester… He was Miquellested!!!

[@Cheerful_Bliss]

Mohg beat the allegations

[@alexhoughton3305]

He's still the head of the Magic AIDS cult so idk if he's really got a positive outlook even after beating the mohglester allegations

[@theashen2019]

Well he’s not completely clear. He still made a blood cult.

[@sampletexttablet8558]

​@@theashen2019 You say that as if the whole lands aren't filled by many genocidal cults to outer gods, like, even the ruling power is one, Mohg and the Formless Mother atleast accept everyone into their one.

[@Mare_Man]

​@sampletexttablet8558 Yes, _everyone_ can spill blood for the blood god. Oceans of it, if Mohgwyn Palace alone is anything to go by.

[@drakeshotplays]

ALSO Malenia and Miquella weren't expecting Radhan to be winning that fight against Malenia hence why she had to use the Rot flower and Nuke Caelid.

[@souhaib2347]

Maybe that´s also why marika broke the ring because she found out there were no greater will

[@MajorLawliet]

@@krimsonentertainment4717 The problem is that not a single one of those options has to do with the broken, forsaken Fingers. Which were once, indeed, not like this. And for that to be the case, there had to be a time where that connection existed. A will without a will would make that impossible, as much as one that couldn't give a shit because then why did the Finger Mother and the Elden Beast ever come? Why was she once not broken and able to commune with it?

[@krimsonentertainment4717]

Id like to revise my previous statement, forgive my previous wording as I have difficulty putting word to thought sometimes. I thing there was always a greater will before the elden beast and Metyr. Then there was a disconnect somehow, much like Placidusax being disconnected with his god. Why is the greater will not speaking? I proposed that its nature could have evolved/changed/devolved as stars are born, die, and change. Did the greater will become so powerful off its vassal worlds it simply ascended beyond the need to communicate with its vassals? Did it become devolved through some battle or corruption? Or even a life cycle for a outer god is different than we understand and it simply died? Killed by the hungry other gods wanting to take influence from others? I might have proposed that the greater will didnt exist before I wanna clarify that.

[@fishnutz5196]

We are sorry Mohg!! And F the Hornsent!!!! Also Messmer is such a tragic character, took all the hate onto himself so his mother wouldnt be looked down on, protected his mothers village and tried to nurse the jarred Saints back to health. Its sad when he dies and finally calls her Marika to curse her. He was so lost and you could tell he has a good heart as when his men betrayed him he didnt murder them or make an example out of them he simply imprisoned them and moaned his lost of a friend. In terms of the 3 fingers, im unsure but my theory is 1. They are a defect child born from Metyr and corrupted by The One Great with the Frenzied Flame or 2. They are a completly different breed of fingers entirely. I also need more lore on Romina, shes referred to as a Saint due to her merging with a Centipede and a Scorpion so she was most likely a sharman, i need to know what her connection to the Rot and the Rot God (great scorpion) is. Miquellas order would be very similar to Madara from Naruto, sure everyone gets to live out their dreams but none of it is real and everyone is just charmed so do you really have freedom? No. Omen curse most likely came from the Hornsent as the Grandam states she put a curse on Marika after her betrayal, the Omen probably locked away and shunned due to them reminding her of the Hornsent.

[@jackblades90]

i think that, considering Radahns love for battle, his wish may have been to have a dead match agains mallenia, the only god he did not fought in the shatering as a warrior, to fight some one known as undefeated would be too entising, and he would have been too confident of his victory that he never tought on the posivility of her using her rot.

[@DatAsianGuy]

I could also imagine that Radahn knows about the dignity that Malenia held and how she doesn't like her rot ability. It probably took him by complete surprise that the undefeated Malenia, who always seems so graceful and honorable, would rely on a power t hat is not truly hers.

[@jean-pierrepolnareff9987]

Chaos is said to infect all things, so perhaps the three fingers went mad after helping the greater will to create the golden order and still received no response, the real mystery is the significance between the fingers number as it is said to be significant enough to have granted intelligence to beast-men once they were granted five fingers, so what difference made the three fingers so unique?

[@Tsolus]

Miquella's plan is the same as Madara's, only with hate replaced with 'love'.

[@dreamcollider7006]

I still believe he held back the stars feeling the outer gods push to influence the lands between and seeing it as a threat, kept it at bay even after losing his mind to rot

[@FlyingNova223]

Mohg beat the allegations… still Satan tho

[@vergiltheartofpower6616]

Hey, Omens are like that

[@moonrabbit2334]

He's chill like that😂

[@DistrustfulAtom]

Confirmed: Link is out to destroy all spirited away pot shamans.

[@marinasea17]

Messmer did nothing wrong.

[@Tsurf]

At this point, with all this new lore, Ranni going. "Screw all of you, I'm going out on MY terms." Seems to be the only sane option.

[@bidsteak9696]

I know why there are jar hunters in the land between now they may have been sent by Merika or someone close to her to kill them because she was traumatized by the practice.

[@ItsMeAndrewGD]

I'm so sorry Mogh :(

[@Vincentpanh]

Saint Trina Nectar: Syrupy Purple Sweet Relaxed Dreamy Sleepy Addictive Is this lean?

[@kingofflames738]

I really wonder what the Abyssal serpent inside Messmer is all about. It kinda reminds me of the abyss in dark souls. That too has snakes and is especially the antithesis of light.

[@ArvindRajAgnosticAtheist]

Malenia was never meant as consort for Miquella, idk where people are getting that from. She's a rival Empyrean, there's nothing the lore that suggest Empyreans can become Elden Lord as that probably is not their fate. Malenia just thought Miquella would be a better candidate for godhood than her, and so decided to become his Blade.

[@matthewmartinez3907]

I wonder if the three fingers were once part of the greater will and was accepted and may have even been a higher form of the two fingers but then the god behind the frenzy flame corrupted the three fingers and from then on they were hated. What better way to avoid reproach and embarrassment than to hide and lock away a direct envoy to a god that supposed to serve it get turned against it.

[@locket-7714]

I like to think that you look relatively normal when your born as an omen but as you age you get the horns and weird features

[@noventaeum]

I wonder if Marika's betrayal was that she was put in a jar after she already had mad contact with the two fingers, that guided her into a way of becoming strong enough to whitstand the process of surviving the jar process, which led her to achieve the saintood the hornsent were expecting. And she used that sainthood to gain their trust, in order to gain access to the gate of divinity, where she, from the look of things, sacrificed a whole lot of them, just to trigger the gate into opening this dimension where she gained access to the Greater Will directly, thus, returning as a full-on god. Which is why maybe why they hate her so much, they 1-didn't see it coming from her (since she was a "saint' that came from that abuse, they undervalued her) 2-they didn't have the knowledge to open the gate, because Marika was just another shaman to them. And once she achieved that sainthood, they felt validated on their beliefs, until she used them to become much stronger than they could ever imagine, simply because she figured out what the gate truly was: a way to commune with different dimensions and gain their knowledge.

[@noventaeum]

Oh, just as a PS: I believe surviving the jar, and the fact that "shamans meld well with others", makes me believe that maybe Marika's actions may have been more radical: I believe the bodies at the gate were maybe not hornsent, but the last shamans, sacrificing themselves to give hear a chance at godhood, to fight back with all they could. And I believe Radagon was born as her alternative from that point forward. Her ability to be in more than one place at once, as queen and a warrior. To massacre her enemies in the name of the brand-new Golden Order that was just beginning

[@noventaeum]

Another addendum: Radagon was probably blonde like Marika, but if I remember correctly, became a red-head because of the giants curse, which he resented deeply.

[@realmweavergaming7129]

I think the three fingers is an mutation of the two fingers. The mother of the two fingers could have discarded the three fingers because of the unintended birth. We know that Frenzied Flame can be acquired from significant trauma. That could have also spread to the three fingers ability to give blessings. Marika had to be aware of the Three Fingers because it was locked away beneath the capital and Marika’s daughter Melina says to stay away. Probably due to its ability to give someone the blessing to become a true Lord of Frenzied Flame.

[@poethebubbles5501]

I believe the haligtree was an amplifier for miquella's spell to snag poor mogh

[@hardin_of_astora]

The 3 fingers are chaos, 2 fingers are order. I speculate that similar to Radagon & Marika being 2 aspects of 1 being, the greater will has many aspects hence many outer gods. Or, the outer gods are seperate beings which represent different aspects of being itself born from an unexplained "big bang" or "creation" which could or couldnt be the greater will. The outer gods could be the 1st beings like in Tolkien lore (born from Eru Iluvatar) or they were here always even before the begining of time - and manifested only as separate entities after the creation of the universe and seeking control within it aftet the creation of life, hence their interst in the Lands Between

[@lazydatebase4424]

Highly recomend for you to watch Vatti's "Nightmarish worlds of Bloodborne 2 " or any other of his art competition videos. This one is all about communitys passion and imagination . No lore here, just creative minds .

[@TazKidNoah]

I am not sorry mogh; he still guilty like he still needed Empyrean

[@ThatsOk83]

Always thought Mohg wasn't like that. Base game item descriptions just made it obv to me that he was charmed

[@paralam2175]

Yo i'm kinda lost with the DLC, what Greater Will revelation was he talking about in the beginning?

[@Blaster746]

One good character that would warrant a second DLC would be Godwyn. Because I want to believe there is a way to bring him back just as there was a way to bring back Radahn.

[@gloomy8795]

I heard a theory that if we get charmed before the final fight in the base game that there might be an alternate end, working towards that on my play through now

[@AutumnTeaParty]

Does the giant jar have a giant shaman inside

[@mistah3687]

Everyone say sorry to Mohg

[@barricadedpurifier]

Mohg pride worldwide!

[@emdies-mds4957]

we thought he was a mohglester but all along he was miquellasted

[@Justice_XI]

Moghlester was actually the miquelsted

[@lixydead3665]

The Miquella spell was casted when mohgu stolen Miquella from the tree after all the spell requires a close range touch beside that the mohgu denisty was already ready for the formless mother to have her infulence but Miquella changed her plan along with mohgu's And no Malenia was not supposed to be the Lord for miquella because she only said she is trying to help him to replace Marika never mentioned for her to be his Lord though she awaits his return so who knows really what he promised to her

[@claus_al_aerth]

I'm so sorry, Mohg. I didn't know you were chill like that.

[@davidfortuin4146]

Miquella the Diddler of Elden Ring. 😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@Jikuri]

Marika get to be a god by using hormsent which is like Mogh so it doesn't really matter in becoming a consort. The connection of Mogh with the formless mother is genuine them he is used to he a portal to the shadow realm.

[@Kryxar]

What about a reaction to Vaatividya's 6 hour summary of the armored core 6 lore? 😂

[@v0x712]

I know TCZ won't see this but being an omen wasn't a curse just said to be one, it was once said to be i believe divine/holy? Just letting anyone who reads this to know and may have forgotten and thanks for reading.

[@DoDoBoBo4]

i swear that fromsoft devs are thinking 20 steps ahead

[@Ablestron]

It could be that the three fingers simply are a better antenna, bearing more recent/accurate info from the Greater Will or "the one great" and uses its influence to attempt to burn everything down in an effort to "return" to the state when the fingers were still a part of the greater will or "the one great"

[@Mare_Man]

The Two Fingers are operating on outdated secondhand info, but the Three Fingers are *_actually insane._* The Greater Will wants _order,_ not *obliteration.*

[@Ablestron]

@@Mare_Manor the greater will, *wanted* order, but having failed to achieve it now believes order is no longer possible, and now seeks to destroy everything and start over. Even if this is just the 3 fingers and not some greater malevolence. The crime Shabriri had his eyes gouged out for was slander. If he told everyone that the foundation of their faith, the communication with the greater will via the two fingers is flawed and broken, then they would simply call him a liar, defame him as it were. And failing that, call him insane. Not that burning the world down isn't insane, but we're talking about a reality where God's are beings you can see and touch the effects of. From their perspective, they have a revelation from a God, but because that revelation hurts the agenda of existing power structures, it's condemned as madness.

[@emperorkingwill1093]

Ik Mogh nd all im happy he beat them allegations. But bro my heart broke for Messmer 😢 wow a tragic character.

[@darklink999]

Godwin isnt gone in the dlc , there is 2 golden knights that became death knights protecting 2 godwin death faces in catacombs , the weild the death knight twin axes and deathknight great ax .

[@TheChillzoneX]

Yes, it was more a reference to him not being reviewed, as his soul is forever gone. Even with what Fia did I doubt we will ever hear from him again.

[@aakkii5271]

I think Miquella's character represents infantile optimism. He truly believes in great world of compassion but that leads to a path of oppression where Miq controls what compassion is. Miq Age is the age of perfect order, but where he controls every single detail, basically everyone losing their free will.

[@qliphalpuzzle5453]

That comment from the sleeping Saint about forgiving a unforgivable wretch feels very Malazan to me

[@Mare_Man]

It still feels like we should've gotten Godwyn instead of Radahn. We know Radahn's a chill dude and all, but I think the guy who literally ended a war by _befriending_ the enemy would fit better as Lord for Miquella's Age of Compassion

[@TheChillzoneX]

I think the unfortunate part is Ranni soul killing him. Miquella saw Godwyn as the first candidate, but only his body remains

[@masufame]

I wonder what was the whole point behind miquella and the haligtree after planting himself in there only to have Mohg forcefully rip him out

[@Mare_Man]

Mohg probably wasn't charmed when he came to snatch him, since Miquella can't charm without getting close

[@liarwithagun]

The Haligtree was an attempt for Miquella to replicate the Erdtree and by doing that have the influence to make his own Order and shape the world in the way he wished to (and probably become a god as well). When he grew the Haligtree, it didn't grant him the power to do what he wanted. It is at this point in the timeline when Miquella probably 'falls' like all the other demigods. After this he suddenly sends Malenia to wage a vicious war (extremely out of character before this), he steals Mogh's heart (potentially one of the first brainwashing Miquella does that we know about), he starts brainwashing a lot of people, etc.

[@truemenrir1497]

I think the most terryfing thing is when Miquela steals you're heart,You are aware of being brain washed and You can't do nothing about it😢.( im sorry for my english its not my first language and i hope you guys understand what im trying to say 😊).

[@Jason-vk7zo]

I think miquella is actually a good person but tried to brought about that good in a bad way and he did do a lot of good thinks for this that was shunned

[@1wayroad935]

He lost the plot when he discarded Saint Trina. After that, he became completely irredeemable.

[@itsyaboy9829]

​@@1wayroad935 yeah, you can't create an age of compassion after discarding your love.

[@msbkaioken136]

​@@1wayroad935I'd love for you to quantify what that means. What do you mean he became irredeemable in what context and what sense exactly?

[@karlwikman3874]

Miquella is Madara

[@kruaser123]

Malenia whispered "My brother is DTF..." And she needed to destroy all of Caleid to do it too. ....So did Radhan spend all that time in a scarlet rot fueled bussy seeking frenzy?

[@Tirreger]

bruh

[@msbkaioken136]

I'm not sure, how you could ever refuse that bussy.

[@maxeisenach1771]

That final sentence truly made me rethink being literate 😅 But jokes aside, I feel like Miquella wanted to just revive Radahn because he can mind control him that way - as I believe he does in the final fight. He wanted Malenia to off him, but she couldn't quite manage. However, she did cause the events that eventually lead to us killing him. And then she got ditched by her little bro as she lay rotting because Miquella told his weird cultist half brother to abduct him

[@kruaser123]

@@maxeisenach1771 See my honest take on Malenia is that when she says that she she is the Blade of Miquella she genuinely believes it, and everything that entails. She sees herself as Miquella's tool to be used for the sake of his ambition, and discarded when she outlives her usefulness. You know kind of like Casca and Griffith who they are clearly based off.

[@powerfist1340]

Somehow Mohg and Radahn are the MVP's of the setting, Radahn for being an absolutely absurd CHAD and Mohg for being an incredibly tragic character, never even really given a chance in life. Also, Marika's actions are MASSIVELY more understandable and tragic - sacrificed all that made her in a vain, naive hope for a better world... not understanding what would result from removing death from the order of nature, and what flaying her humanity would turn her into as a god. A perspective which makes Miquella all the more monstrous, for he knows his mothers history and is all too willing to make the exact same mistake.

[@liarwithagun]

I don't think Marika did what she did 'for a better world'. I think she removed death to prevent the people she cared about (i.e. family) from dying. That's why the black knives plot is what triggers her to shatter the ring. What her motivations besides that seem to be just greed for ever more power. So she still isn't a good person, but she isn't some caricature of pure evil.

[@powerfist1340]

@@liarwithagun considering it is strongly implied Marika assisted Ranni in the Night of Black Knives, i'm going to cast doubt on that being as you interpreted it.

[@Ghostrebel017]

Miquella's nascence is showing. He's a child, who has no understanding of consent and the complexity of free will. He has only one thing in mind and he will achieve it, by any means necessary. As I have feared, Miquella turned out to be a Griffith after all.

[@MajorLawliet]

The fuck are you talking about? Even though he wasn't quite shown to be willing to literally kill everyone he cared about by being pushed to the edge, Griffith before his fall always had an entirely selfish dream he didn't hesitate to reach for. Miquella's hope is the opposite of selfish, and required essentially tearing off pieces of himself, including a piece outright saying you should kill the Godly him as Godliness will be nothing but a cage and his ability to doubt and hesitate, implying he very much doubted and very much hesitated about all this nonsense. The parallel you are making literally doesn't exist. Even the "child" stuff makes no sense, because nothing ever implies Miquella doesn't understand consent or the complexity of a free will. Seems to me that he knew, yet still thought his so-called great age of kindness would still remain a preferable option.

[@vergiltheartofpower6616]

If your refer his kindness by using his charm skills is kindly, then your dead wrong a out it... Anyone who oppossed or who don't follow his will your just either going to be killed or be charmed with no free will...

[@Mare_Man]

If by "turned out to be Griffith" you mean "is morally the opposite of Griffith in every regard," then I guess you'd be right.

[@the_volk]

tell me you've never read Berserk without telling me you've never read Berserk.

[@Ghostrebel017]

Right, I see this has upset some people. Please permit me to make an attempt to justify my reasoning for this comparison. Here goes. Griffith: aims to create his own kingdom. From what we see in the daily life in Falconia, one could reasonably assume that this kingdom implies prosperity, peace, and security for the common citizen. He is seen by these citizens as a great hero, the Hawk of Light. He saved the princess, he saved the people from the Kushan, and he is actively trying to protect the people from all of the monsters. The (original) Band of the Hawk also loved him and followed him anywhere he wished. He did everything in is power to appear altruistic. What nobody knew/knows, of course, is that this is merely an instrument. Griffith is a hyper intelligent sociopath (not certain on the exact/accurate diagnosis, so don’t at me) who knows exactly what to do and what to say to get what he wants. Everything and everyone is an instrument to him. Only affection he shows is equivalent of a craftsman having and taking care of his favourite set of tools for plying the trade. He slipped up because effectively, his favourite hammer told him it wants to go its own way and beat him in a fight. So when a new instrument presented itself at the eclipse, and was clearly superior to all other instruments, of course he discarded them. Miquella: wishes to create the Age of Compassion and to “make the world a gentler place.” To this end, he has developed the power to charm anyone to his cause. He is seen as gentle, tender, kind, caring. He made a haven for the dejected, he helped his sister to fight an external influence of the Scarlet Rot. He will also, not take no for an answer. Like a child he goes “no, we do what I want”, and compels those who oppose him to join him. He will single-mindedly pursue his goal, whatever means necessary, and anyone who even attempts to challenge his ideals will be swayed, or discarded. Him giving up parts of himself is not an altruistic act of sacrifice but merely a removal of what is in the way of the goal. Nowhere is this clearer than with St. Trina, as she was discarded because she was against Miquella’s goal and could not be charmed into being for it. Miquella convinced his sister (possibly through the charming) to kill his brother, and bewitched his other brother into doing what he did, all to attain his goal. Now as to why I draw these parallels: both have a single-minded goal that involves some form of peace and prosperity. Both are single-mindedly obsessed with this goal. Both are beloved by the common people and have groups of devout followers. Both compel and persuade to get what they want, while keeping the dirty work hidden to the best of their ability. The differences come in the tools at their disposal, and the subsequent behavour caused by the use of these tools. Up until the eclipse, Griffith was but a mortal man, so he had to use mortal “tools”. I’m sure that if he had the power to snap his fingers and say “You love me now.” and it worked, he would use it on the noble who tried assassinating him (I forget the name), as well as the king, and queen. So this is an example of “the words may be different, the message remains the same.” I suppose we should be thankful that Miquella didn’t leave that posse to die to some eldritch horror while (g)r*ping Leda. I understand that perhaps this is still unconvincing, and that is okay. After all, this is only an interpretation. I get that there will be people who strongly disagree with the comparison, and that is fair. Just that this one made sense to me. And if it doesn’t, I guess outside of any comparisons, what I am trying to get at is my belief that most of us will agree with Ansbach. Miquella is a monster.

[@Mike-db1gw]

41:40 Missed that as well in my playthrough, why do we need to drink the Kool-aid FOUR times for that dialogue to trigger? From's NPC questline design at its best.

[@theinternetsightseer2935]

Oh no, God forbid a game have secrets.

[@Mike-db1gw]

@@theinternetsightseer2935 "Secrets" that have no hints, hidden behind mindless repetition and lock you out of quest progression if you don't somehow stumble upon them? Yeah, God should forbid such "secrets" thank you very much.

[@karlo2018]

Mohg bros.... I kneel

[@MrKylljoy]

Well, don't be TOO sorry for Mogh, he's still not really a good person even not bewitched by Miquella

[@Mare_Man]

If anything, being obsessed with Miquella probably kept him and his "dynasty" from going BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD all over the Lands Between

[@Osiris491]

So about the Finger Mommy and her little mentally ill children. My own theory is that she IS the Mother of the 3 Fingers, and that is what messed her up. Since we know that there were previous failed Lords who needed to be touched by the 3 Fingers to become the Lord of Frenzied Flame. So I'm guessing she was partially immune to the 3 Fingers being an envoy of the GW and all but it messed her the fuck up and made either the GW abandon her or she simply gone mad and can't hear the GW's voice.

[@liarwithagun]

Except all the fingers we see are deformed. The various 2 Fingers and the Fingercreepers are deformed, not how they are 'supposed' to be (presumably a regular 5 finger hand like the "Hands of God" they are implied to be metaphorically and literally). So she must have been messed up before she birthed the 3 Fingers if that is what happened to her. And Ymir's dialogue tells us that things were messed up from the very beginning. He might not be talking about the Golden Order and may instead be talking about everything since the Finger Mother's arrival.

[@masufame]

MIQUELLA FORGED THE DMS TO INCRIMINATE MOHG

[@user-zp8kj2cl9g]

It's explicitly indicated that Miquella was a simp for Radanh since they were kids. I wouldn't be surprised if all of the bs that Miquella has done was for the only purpose to get his cheeks clapped by his older stepbrother.

[@klbin]

Radhan, mohg, and pastor kuma for most sympathetic character stories

[@ibo8922]

theres actually way more arguments that radahn was a willingly consort than being charmed by miquella tbh there a actually no evidence that radahn was charmed

[@DANI-jj1mb]

LETS GOOO I WAS FIRSTTT

[@aidanker-foz6511]

NUH UH!

[@DANI-jj1mb]

@@aidanker-foz6511 YUH UH!