Star Trek Deep Space Nine Ruminations S7E22: Tacking Into The Wind

[@Pondimus_Maximus]

“The... casual brutality. The waste of life. What kind of people give those orders?” “Yeah, Damar. What kind of people give those orders?”

[@athrunzala6919]

Some of Nana's best work, love how she averts her eyes after, the only time in the whole series she stands down like that which in itself makes the scene stand out.

[@chiroquacker2580]

@@athrunzala6919 Yes! I have seen people do the exact same in real life. She nailed that scene!

[@FaeAngst]

@@athrunzala6919 Casey Briggs does excellent as well, he plays the sequence of rage, realizing shes right, but still being angry so removing himself from the situation so well.

[@LostMercenary99]

Ezri's speech alone knocked this episode into my top 10 DS9 episodes :D

[@athrunzala6919]

very apt to today ;)

[@SchneeflockeMonsoon]

“The Wind does not respect a fool.” -Emperor Kahless the Reborn

[@maisiesummers42]

TNG: We'll talk about Worf being a badass, but he'll never win a fight. DS9: Worf is a badass. Here he is actually killing people.

[@quasimodojdls]

"Keep in mind, as I'm recording these the Picard show has not yet come out. Nor has Season Three of 'Discovery'." Ah, I remember those days. They were quite nice. It's a shame we'll never have them again. I've said it before and I'll say it again.... Ignorance really is bliss.

[@harrypothead42024]

When the cloak goes on Worf and he says, hear me, or whatever it is, he always reminds me of James Brown.🤣

[@keithbusam8262]

There's a little moment during the ship capture I really like, when Odo (as the female Founder) "inspects" the new rifle, Salome Jens says her lines in the exact mannerisms as Odo, like he's dropping the pretense because the mission is already a success, if you close your eyes while she's delivering her lines you can perfectly picture Odo giving them. I never really noticed that before watching the episode last night.

[@gozerthegozarian9500]

Holy shit, you're right! That is some quality acting!

[@SeruraRenge11]

The thing I like is that by the end, Gowron had shown himself to be no different from Duras.

[@LiberPresse1]

I'm taking a moment here, not the one to usually comment but i feel the need to say thank you. I've been following you since the voyager series on and off and thanks to youtube algorithm every time I go trough hard stuff in my life you always end up in my playlist.. Soothing and calming voice talking about what i consider to be a great show... I don't know, you help me keep a straight path... So yeah, thank you :)

[@jef_3006]

This is a really good episode. The Dominion War was always full of parallels to WWII, but I personally think this episode displays the most important of those parallels; this war will fundamentally shift the character and ideology of several of the combatant empires. It fantastic stuff. Plus, with the best Ezri scene, the second best Damar scene (I like him laughing at Weyoun's corpse more), and opportunities for Nana Visitor to act, this episode couldn't really do wrong.

[@波切和雄]

Now that I know about it I wish that deleted scene had been filmed…”Jadzia would have been proud.” And then Worf puts his hands on Ezri’s shoulders and stifles a sob. Would’ve been a great ending to their character arc.

[@thezzzaappp]

Honestly with Worf and Martok as a team I think either would be great. Martok is clearly the correct choice politically speaking. Worf is just as infamous in the empire as he is famous, Martok is just the golden boy. Also I think that for the fundamental change the empire needed someone who is not a politician is best. As you said the kind of general who puts his flag on a bird. Of course that non politician will need help from someone more savvy. But that’s what Worf and Star Fleet are for after all.

[@SchneeflockeMonsoon]

I love how this episode, much like many others, shows that the Bat’leth is a defensive weapon. You throw in for the big strike: you’re pretty much dead. The way to win with it is to strike with essentially elbow blows, slowly wearing down the opponent and enduring until one is dead, which is very Klingon. Also: we haven’t seen a hint of the Klingons in the post-DS9 era, as of this comment. But given Ambassador Worf was there to go Targ Hunting, I like to think Martok did okay.

[@mr51406]

Little extra: Kitty Swink, Armin Shimerman’s wife, plays the Vorta. She already played a Bajoran minister (the Screean episode). And the Cardassian officer they meet when boarding the (extremely cool!!) space station, J. Paul Boehmer, returns in 2 roles on Voyager: the crazy commandant in the French WW2 holodeck show, and future Borg “One.”

[@quicksilvertongue3248]

I've talken at length about how cute it is when Lore fumbles his words (like "de-soh-nance").

[@athrunzala6919]

When Kira was done impersonating the Vorta, she should have commented on how boring the conversation was :)

[@chiroquacker2580]

Agreed! kzbin.info/www/bejne/ane2h2utZrqikKM

[@quicksilvertongue3248]

I see what you did there....

[@Pondimus_Maximus]

We saw Gowron fight once in TNG, and twice in DS9. He was no slouch. He wasn’t a fat politician like K’mpec, back in the day. He could back up his ambition with martial prowess, which I loved about his character. 🖖😀

[@chiroquacker2580]

I think it would have been cool if the Ferengi sent by Grand Nagus Rom joined the Federation / Klingon / Romulin fleet for the last space battle. They show up with a bunch of D'koras with a hodegepodge of miscellaneous exotic weapons that they originally intended to sell but instead bolted onto their ships at the last minute to give them an extra punch. I can imagine some TNG Season 1 looking Daimon coming up on the Defiant viewscreen and telling Sisco "You owe us for this hew-mon, but we'll settle up later". Extra points if they show up in the middle of the battle, turn the tide, and start beating the crap out of the breen because they had been pirating Ferengi vessels and disrupting free trade. I know the Ferengi prefer negotiating over warfare and aren't known for being fierce warriors, but I like the idea that underneath that they can still get very nasty if backed into a corner and have no options except fighting.

[@quicksilvertongue3248]

This absolutely goes in my alt-canon, where we actually get to see the final battle that should have happened between WYLB pts 1 & 2.

[@Jose_Hunters_EWF_Remixes]

My mistake - I was actually looking at a list which had the title wrong

[@seaconfused]

This and the Dogs of war are my favorites of the Final Chapter. I was curious about your opinion on the debate, if Sisko basically ordered Worf to assasin Gowron or not, but sadly you didn't touch the matter :(

[@athrunzala6919]

I'm sure Sisko didn't intend on an assassination, but I'm sure the post "Pale Moonlight" Sisko also doesn't mind it either.

[@MissTea_Trekkie]

I didn't know that was a debate. WOW!

[@maisiesummers42]

Sisko tells Worf that Gowron must be removed as Chancellor. He does not order Gowron's death.

[@DerBeppone]

Ohh that is in deed a moment that goes under in the greatness of the episode. In the discussion with Gowron it was very clear that Sisko was fully aware of the situation and how klingon politics would need to resolve this. But Sisko is right. Gowron's political play would've threatened the entire war effort of ALL major powers in the alpha and beta quadrants. It had to be stopped. I don't really think though that Sisko ordered Worf fo kill him. After all Worf's first instinct is to try to bring Martok to challenge the chancellor.

[@williamozier918]

11:40. That exchange was one of the best I've ever seen in fiction period, second to B5s Gkar's 'I can forgive you'. One of the depths of it I really loved was that I think Damar realized that not only were the Cardassians the kind of people who DID give thosse orders; the whole reason they got into bed with the Dominion was so they could once again give those kinds of orders. Damar has suffered the brutal lose of his family because he and his people are trying to be in the position to brutalize families once again.

[@mr51406]

In that scene, Ezri equals Jadzeea in wisdom and Deanna in perspicacity. Ezri is now totally sure of herself, totally Dax. Bravo Nicole for an awesome scene! 🌟 After Trek, Nicole deBoer would star in a surreal little Newfoundland Canadian sitcom called Dooley Gardens also starring the amazing Mary Walsh.

[@roystonsbailey]

Yet again we see one of Worf's strengths: the ability to take advice from others. Also seen on TNG.

[@stuartwald2395]

So Worf kills both Durass and Gowron, the competitors for the chancellorship in "Reunion", puts an emperor back on the empty throne, and then get his house leader in as chancellor. You'd think that the Klingons had imported a "Caste of Assassins" without telling anyone (including themselves), and Worf was its champion.

[@AdamCollings]

I commented last week how I thought this little Klingon arc did a dis-service to Gowron's character, and I still feel that (I always thought he was better than this) but you have reminded me about how awesome that scene between Ezri and Worf is. That alone makes this Klingon arc really good. This was a fantastic rumination. Thank you.

[@DerBeppone]

It's funny, that DS9 challgenges the status quo of the political landscape of both home quadrants so drastically in this few episodes. I didn't really remember it to be so late. Fascinating! In many ways it is really strange to think the the war itself just started to become a total war this late in the show. The fact the pay off matters so much speaks volumes of the quality this show has in establishing and setup!

[@anthonygagan4398]

I think Martok with Worf counselling and advising would be the best fit for the empire moving forward.

[@thezzzaappp]

I like to think Gowron was actually pretty good at personal combat. Not as good as Worf of course, but I don’t think you can ascend to the Chancellorship without being very good in a fight.....or without Romulans.

[@chiroquacker2580]

Gowron never backed down from personal combat and was willing when challenged. I can at least respect him for that.

[@athrunzala6919]

GO WORF! Finally, 12 years of Worf effect has paid off and he has now levelled up to the point that he can kill Gowron with two little nubs stabbed into his stomach in a manner of seconds! Bashir would have no chance of saving him!

[@captaeh]

I think Worf would have had the military backing quickly, as Martok did not want the role and supported Worf immediately. But I think either would do great as Chancellor

[@Ash_Rein]

I believe Worf would be a Ned Stark type ruler. A good man who earns the respect of everyone around him. A man with a great sense of honor and sympathy. A man who has limits. Unfortunately, when ruling, there has to be a little bit of ruthlessness. Some willingness to set your soul on fire fore the overall long-term good. Worf would be betrayed and murdered. Martock has some of that ruthlessness. He’s a good man. He’s an honorable man. But he’s also a man who would see betrayal and immediately act in order to get rid of the snakes around him. We saw that with Kor. Worf felt bad about an old man and tried to help. It almost killed him and everyone around him. Martock saw that same old man and turned his back to him. Worf was right for trying to help. But Martock was more right for wanting nothing to do with him. Long-term, Martock decision would’ve saved more lives

[@singletona082]

This episode shows better than any that Worf is the mythic ideal of what a Klingon should be. Well rounded. Bot ha warrior and a poet. One who is wise to the world around them but not one to dirty their hands with overly complex scheming. One who ultimately has an honorable soul and intent. Andwhiel Gowron is clearly a prideful stubborn fool. He is Klingon. He fought and Died with Honor and should be given every due respect that is owed. Let the boatman judge if he is worthy of the halls of honor or if he is to be forever mired in shame. The rest. Is Silence.

[@Eelco_de_Boer]

Summary: Gowron begins reckless attacks against the Dominion in an attempt to dish General Martok; Kira and the Cardassians plot to capture a Breen ship with the new weapon; Garak gives Kira advice about how to deal with Rusot, Damar's second hand; Damar get's bad news. (the scene with Damar and Kira about the deaths of innocents is one of the best in Star Trek history. Great episode, a turning point of events. part 6 of 9)

[@wangbot47]

Dude, you record these YEARS in advance!?

[@thexalon]

The last Chancellor I could respect is Azetbur (from The Undiscovered Country), and her father Gorkon.

[@kevinrussell3501]

This is easily one of the best episodes of Star Trek. I think Worf would be the better leader but there probably would be too much kick back in the empire against him. So Worf is right that it has to be Martok. Martok is awesome so that's good anyway. Ezri's best scene is in this episode and is one of the best that is just spoken dialogue, especially just between 2 main characters in all of Star Trek. Kira and Garak are awesome, even Damar is very good. What more could any of us want from Star Trek?

[@normanbuchwald]

Well in a pre-Picard series sort of noncanonical novel, Worf is in a position of leadership but of a different kind. ;)

[@scottkrametbauer90]

Hurray, I'm now caught up on DS9

[@quicksilvertongue3248]

I believe Section 31 not only has genegineered people, but also time travelers, and probably genegineered time travelers, who are smart enough to do time travel right.

[@empirejeff]

Does Sisko work for section 31?

[@PeterSwinkels]

No, I think he may have been forced to at times though.

[@jimschuler8830]

From a certain perspective, Enterprise takes place after DS9, as it's the story of a battlefront in the temporal cold war.

[@Ash_Rein]

Only certain episodes yes. But we don’t really learn much about Starfleet or the Federation. Tiny tiny tiny tidbits

[@quicksilvertongue3248]

"what I told you was true... from a certain point of view." 🤣 Obi wan Kenobi, the original BS artist.

[@quicksilvertongue3248]

To de-gender the "guys forgive" topic a little, the root reason for that "ah, forget about it" reaction is a lack of neuroticism, the Big Five personality trait related to anxiety and insecurity and a need to predict and control things (by the way, imo this is why Salome identifies as female and Odo as male). Neuroticism isn't a definitionally female trait, just one which is statistically more common across the majority of women than the majority of men. You can debate how much of that comes from evolution and brain structure, versus how much is socialization and culture, but it is well studied enough that we can call it a truth. Neurotic people imagine other neurotic people 4d Chessing them all the time, they see wheels within wheels of conspiracy and duplicity, so when they get an apology, they doubt that it's sincere, and they want to test it, so it needs to become this big elaborate ritual and pageantry before it's adequately convincing. All of that fits the well understood stereotype of how women in general tend to socialize with each other, the surface level friendliness that covers multiple layers of cattiness and passive aggression. Some women don't do that, and some men do (with homosexuals being particularly likely to flip the script on their birth gender since their brain literally resembles the other gender's in structure). But most women do have that lean towards neuroticism, and most men don't. Ergo, women hold grudges or demand apologies; men simply forgive (or they kill each other, if it's something unforgivable, but women do that too).

[@joshuafranklin5636]

I really wished they would had made Worf, the leader of the Klingons.

[@timyo6288]

Surprised this wasn’t a Lamentation.

[@PeterSwinkels]

Why?

[@quicksilvertongue3248]

As Lore so often says, "Haenh?"

[@stevemanart]

Not much to say this time but a like and comment helps a lot in getting videos seen so please enjoy this comment: This is my favorite episode of the last stretch.

[@videogenics86]

Be warned, this will include MANY SPOILERS FOR STAR TREK ONLINE................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................. ...Jempek...What Worf did here was nothing but a BLIP on the Klingon Empires long decent into irrelevancy. How do I know this, see the first word of this post past the spoiler warning. He took the Chancellorship from Martok and then threw him into a prison ran by the most dishonorable house in the Empire, an Empire that has House Duras in it. What is his next action, declare war on the FEDERATION. Then when he is challenged from an unexpected source what is his reponse? Use a weapon of mass destruction and frames the PC who is a WAR HERO from the ICONIAN WAR, a war the galaxy is still recovering from because in lore it wasn't even a year ago. Which brings us to MARTOK. He's also a problem, because he really DOESN'T want to be Chancellor, he didn't want it in THIS episode and he doesn't want it in STO. Its WHY he agrees not to rock the boat. Whatever happened when Jempek challenged Martok I think since Martok survived that there was something HINKY going on, yet Martok does NOTHING. Which sullies HIS honor.

[@zuzoscorner]

24:30 me "hahahaha! Nope!" Picard is trash. Discovery is trash...

[@AlucardNoir]

The closer to the finale you get the more aprehensive I get. I don't think I've ever liked a Star Trek series finale. I didn't like TNG's, despite All Good things being loved by the fans. I hated the Enterprise and Voyager outings and I outright despise the DNS one. I'm an atheist and the whole religious angle just rubbed me the wrong way. That and I really think the writer messed up really badly with Kira's Yeah, Damar, What kind of people give those orders? line.