Tolkien vs Rings of Power: The Importance of Canon

[@TheLittlePlatoon]

The full video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/l2bEfIODfdCeaLcsi=L36V3f4sd1QJShkV

[@MatthewEverettGates]

This is a useful extract of the full video. Derivative works are naturally necessary, as good works inspire people and yet are not wholly comprehensible given the limits of perception and of creation: there is a drive to know more and experience different angles. But what do I make of something silly that is shoved in my face with the exclamation it is an adaptation of a work I enjoyed? This helps me clarify some thoughts about the specifics of Tolkien's ideas, and the nuances of derivative artistic works. Much appreciated.

[@MerrimourTheRed]

great video ... I'm re-reading all the books again for like the 10th time after the realization of how awful Rings of Power is

[@aesiddoway]

“Thank you grand elf.” Absolutely foul.

[@sarahdrawz]

ikr...he's not an elf..

[@Arcessitor]

@@sarahdrawz That's not the offensive part. His name gandalf literally is gandr (staff) + alfr (elf), and in fact, Gandálfr is the name of a dwarf (not elf) in the Poetic Edda. He too was not an elf, but the name just means elf with a wand/staff, and because magical creatures are often called elf it works as a name.

[@sarahdrawz]

@@Arcessitor ah I see, my mistake. Thank you!

[@luissimoes2645]

​@@Arcessitor But weren't the dwarves described in the Eddas as "dark" elves (Svartálfaheimr)? The name Gandálfr would then fit such a description, even though Elves and Dwarves (Dark Elves) are different both physically and in personality. In the case of Gandalf, I think it is different, because although Tolkien based his story largely on Norse mythology, he made it clear in his stories that Istar, Elves and Dwarves have different backgrounds and different origins, which means that their names would probably also have different origins. In this case, I find it really strange, unnatural and inappropriate that Gandalf's name comes from this combination of words. But even more problematic is the fact that Gandalf supposedly never went to those regions, let alone got his name and staff from there, but that is a whole other conversation.

[@bhvvlogs7814]

Hey, at least he wasn't a Grand Wizard.

[@Molly-ey6lq]

This is precisely why Amazon's desecration of Tolkien's world strikes so deeply, even more than the desecration of Star Wars, Star Trek, Doctor Who, and all the rest. We can all enjoy the true forms of all of those things, and Marvel and DC and whatever on top of it. We can have cherished childhood memories of watching The original movies when we were 11, or staying up to watch The Next Generation on broadcast TV in the late 90s. I mean this in no way to take away from the cherished memories or values anyone has derived from the likes of Star Trek, Star Wars etc. But Tolkien's world was different. Set apart. The mythical landscape and universe he created is something wholly different, and I would dare say, above, the likes of fantastical sci-fi adventures. Tolkien was the Homer of our time. The Lord of the Rings, Hobbit, Simarillion, and the rest were the Odyssey, the Beowulf, the Gilgamesh of the modern age. Star Wars as it should have have will be remembered in 100 years. Tolkien will be remembered in 1000. It's that important. And for the cultural vandals to successfully be able to pull it down into the mud as they have, is a disgrace and a disrespect that cannot be equaled by a thousand Last Jedis or Star Trek Discoveries.

[@doomsdaybooty1072]

Well said. Here here.

[@krokodilgaming]

Imo star wars etc. Are fantasy/sci-fi stories, but its so vast i cant imagine it as a universe. But tolkiens world was so clear cut, so well written, rich with history, it felt like a parallel universe. It felt like something that could be real. Everything was so fleshed out. I could only think, that i want to see more. Well in hindsight maybe not😂

[@zombieranger3410]

⁠@@krokodilgamingIt’s like Cormac McCarthy taking long periods of time to plan out the route in Blood Meridian by going to the real places and trekking through the same paths. Some people are just detail-oriented and ground their stories better, others don’t care.

[@luissimoes2645]

@@krokodilgaming Agreed. Star Wars, as you said, has such a vast universe and setting that it becomes much easier to tell stories in it. You could have stories set in the same galaxy but millions and millions of miles apart because we know a universe is always expanding. You could tell an epic story, just like the original story, but so far away that people would never meet the original characters and you would have justification for it. Lord of the Rings, on the other hand, has it's stories mostly set around the realm of Arda, with the exception of the creation of that realm. This is something tangible, especially when you have maps and an idea of how much time it takes to get somewhere. If you break those rules, then the whole thing becomes less real for us. This is one of the mistakes that happened in the later seasons of Game of Thrones. Characters were getting to their locations so much faster without any specific time markers, and it made the events feel less real and less impactful. What I mean is that you can still tell stories in the same realm of Arda and fill in the gaps left by Tolkien if you do it right. Peter Jackson's adaptations, for example, do this well while still doing some things differently from the source material. In The Two Towers, the Elves help the Men of Rohan in the Battle of Helm's Deep, and even though this goes against what is written (because the Elves of both Lórien and Mirkwood also had their homes attacked), it still makes sense and is well done in the film because the Elves still felt like Elves (graceful, organised, experienced, ...) and because this way Peter saved time and expository dialogue to show that other places and races in Middle-earth were also in danger and under attack. It was the definition of "how do I show and not tell without having to introduce new characters and places in a film that is already so big".

[@huntclanhunt9697]

Additionally, Tolkien did not leave much wiggle room in his works, unlike Star Wars which did have wiggle room.

[@Kiwicrack]

paused the episode and said NOPE out loud at 0:10 If anything, LOTR has the sturdiest fucking canon out of any fantasy IP.

[@iamrubenmes]

He has reiterated his works until the day he died.

[@LeftJoystick]

@@iamrubenmes That does not change the fact that there are ESTABLISHED POINTS OF LORE in his works.

[@TheTrueBobDole]

​@@iamrubenmes Hobbit and LOTR are both published works. Both are canon. His other works can be argued, but not these 2 works.

[@iamrubenmes]

I concur

[@devildante9]

@@LeftJoystick There are, but also outside of LotR and The Hobbit, the rest of his material was unpublished, so TECHNICALLY you COULD say that it's not canon by JRR Tolkien standard, since it was Christopher Tolkien and other editors who spliced like 4 different versions to publish the Silmarillion and other stuff like The History of Middle Earth or the History of the Hobbit. But yeah, Corey Olsen is just speaking nonsense in that clip, he got cooked.

[@stalhandske9649]

9:52 Based Tolkien bashing BBC when it wasn't cool 😄 and here I could not have thought my respect for the man could grow even higher than it was. Jokes aside, Tolkien, for what I've read from biographies and his letters, was very multimedia positive, so much so that he did some light sound effect experiments for some sections of LotR with a recorder he owned, as well recording some sections like songs (you can find his Rohan's lament on YT!) He also envisioned some cool visual ideas for the books themselves, like printing the illustrations of Durin's door with paint that would only show in moonlight frequency or Balin's expedition notes facsimile he crumpled and tainted with tea blotches and like. Sadly, these ideas were all too expensive for 1950's austerity Britain for books his publisher considered a barely profitable venture. All the more delightful to see these put to reality in some recent luxury versions of Lord of The Rings!

[@Mr.E_Bodhako]

the orcs that are burning the scrolls during the battle in the last episode of season 2 of rings of power is the show itself burning the Lord of the Rings books.

[@varundattoo9512]

I mean they did the exact thing in disney star wars and pretty much all our cherished IPs in the contemporary times

[@donspafford414]

@@varundattoo9512”Let go of the past. Kill it if you have to.” Thanks, Ruin Johnson & Johnson baby oil, you made it so on the nose obvious what you and Lucasfilm thought of Star Wars, and the clapping seals ate it up.

[@Mr.E_Bodhako]

@@varundattoo9512 yeah just saying they actually burned a pile of previous knowledge in this show, in action not just in words as in the other IPs you mentioned (yes its more of the same, just a step further this time onscreen for all to see), revelling in it, not even questioning it or why or if they even should, just burning it for the sake of it. has me thinking of Professor Henry Jones in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade: [through his teeth] It tells me, that goose-stepping morons like yourself should try *reading* books instead of *burning* them!

[@Mr.E_Bodhako]

@@donspafford414 now it's the company dictating to the directors what messages to put in and how their movies are to be made, not to absolve ruin johnson of all blame but an argument could be made that the company made him do the same.

[@Mr.E_Bodhako]

​@@varundattoo9512 has me thinking of a quote from Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade: Professor Henry Jones: [through his teeth] "It tells me, that goose-stepping morons like yourself should try *reading* books instead of *burning* them!" Ironically disney has removed the first 4 Indiana Jones movies from disney+

[@Blisterdude123]

One of Jackson's smartest choices with the films was completely avoiding issues with timescale by never specifically referring to any specific sort of time or place at all. The story just kinda...flows. It's impressive sometimes how a lack of detail can actually aid your immersion in a story. Sometimes adding those details just invites you to think about questions that pull you out of the illusion.

[@bad-people6510]

Which in some ways works, but not in others. For example the understanding of time and distance makes you feel Sam and Frodo's exhaustion in Mordor a lot more viscerally in the book than the film.

[@Blisterdude123]

@@bad-people6510 Oh for sure, Jackson absolutely communicates the 'idea' of time and distance in how we see the characters change. I just mean that by not resorting to timecards onscreen and such, you are instead just sucked along on the journey without worrying about whether the math works on different events lining up.

[@lesath7883]

Yes and no. Because he presented the passage of time in a visual way. That plays to the strengths of film.

[@GeraltofRivia22]

​@@bad-people6510 the movies don't need to show time because they can show distance in ways a book can't. You can actually visually see how far away Mordor is.

[@bad-people6510]

@@GeraltofRivia22 Yet the book gave me a considerably greater sense of fatigue.

[@darthmarth87]

It's very strange and dissapointing to see that guy talking about "no canon" I've listened to a lot of his talks and podcasts in the past and he really is a knowledgeable guy who's good at breaking things down. Hell he talks about where the Jackson films break canon (which they sometimes do, let's be fair), so I know he knows what he's saying here is bullshit - so I can only surmise he is saying it for that sweet Bezos money - which is way worse than saying something out of ignorance imo.

[@cmcapps1963]

Yup, Corey Olsen sold out big time. I'm incredibly disappointed in him.

[@Rickflair604]

Well said.

[@dismaspickman773]

Unfortunately, he is a shill IMO. Most folks dance to money's tune, sacrificing integrity on the alter of profit.

[@christianefiorito3204]

The guy who said" no Canon" is an English lit graduate who calls himself the Tolkien Professor. HE lives from a private University called Mythgard institute whose grades are not recognized by any University in the world. So one could only compare it to Trump University. And last not least he is paid a lot of money to do PR for Amazon as a Tolkien specialist, after they had sacked Tom Shippey, as soon as Christopher Tolkiien had died, thanks to the influence of a minor son of greaterSires, the envious and greedy Simon Tolkien whose own three books all flopped and who is after Christophers death unfortunately the capo of the Tolkien estate now.

[@troffle]

> guy who's good at breaking things down Obviously.

[@andrewbrennan2891]

Payne and McKay used some names created by JRR and rings, that's about it. They have no interest in Tolkein's work and vision. If they had done Star Wars after the OT it would have Luke, Leia, Han and Chewbacca fighting in the American civil war and creating emancipation. Oh and Leia would be the strongest, smartest and most emancipationist in the world.

[@RamblesBrambles]

God bless them...they had to know this was career suicide.

[@Arcessitor]

@@RamblesBrambles But it's not. All of Hollywood is run by and for these cretins.

[@talithakoum3922]

I'm not sure they know about the Civil War 😂

[@DemonKingBadger]

​@@talithakoum3922 I doubt they know the complexities of it, at the very least.

[@darthvader822]

No love for ROP but I did watch it mainly because I see people like you trying to push your political views. I was wondering whether it was actually bad (it is) or it just annoyed people like you who never got over civil rights happening.

[@cpuuk]

"No such thing as canon in Tolkein". When someone goes to the trouble of writing the entire start to finish history, that also encompasses ALL the books, I would say there is plenty of canon, lots of canon, it's all fkin canon!

[@h.a.9880]

I think Tolkien's work stands out as one of the best in all of human literature precisely cause he didn't write a novel and then created a canon, he created a complete world filled to the brim with history, mythology, linguistics and set a story in it. He started out by writing a giant canon and then picked stories that happened in there to flesh them out. Saying there is no canon is completely asinine.

[@elentari_22]

Well, I guess it depends on how do you see canon. It's easy with The Hobbit and Lotr cause they were published when Tolkien was still alive, but what with the rest? I mean, let's take Luthien and Beren's story. In one version you have Tevildo in onther you have Sauron. Which one is "the right one", which one should be adapted? And it's not the only example

[@igorbednarski8048]

​​@@elentari_22 no canon is 100% self-consistent. Forget fictional stories, the real history is not a 100% objective account of everything that's ever happened, there's plenty of historical events or even whole periods of time with multiple equally legitimate accounts with no way of objectively determining what actually happened with 100% certainty. This doesn't mean that you could make a movie about the battle of Thermopylae with the 300 Spartans driving Tiger Tanks and claim it's historically accurate because we don't know with 100% certainty the exact course of the events of this battle. Same applies to Tolkien - yes, the stories that were published post-mortem have multiple versions, sometimes conflicting, there is a lot of stuff he only described very briefly without going into detail, you can find contradictions like in any story - but just because some details cannot be determined with 100% certainty doesn't mean nothing can be. The example with the Spartans driving armoured vehicles wasn't an exaggeration at all, if anything it was an understatement - inserting Gandalf's arrival, the creation of rings of power and the migration of the Harfoots into the same timeline is basically the same level of anachronism - circa 2500-3000 years.

[@elentari_22]

@@igorbednarski8048 Look, believe me, I know how history works. But it doesn’t really apply to the books. I see difference between a book (or a series) that is one, closed story and has only one version and the history of Earth and/or humanity. Tolkien’s lore is not „one closed story”. But I’m not implying it’s a bad thing. I’d say more: he’s my favourite writer. There’s even more: I don’t rally like RoP. I don’t consider it a good adaptation (it had some things I enjoyed though), I don’t even consider it to be a good series on its own. All I’m saying is that there is no need to be so irritated (like some people in the comments) when someone is saying that there is no „one canon” in case of most of Tolkien’s stories (because there just isn’t).

[@AnnaMarianne]

​@@elentari_22Just because there are earlier versions of the story doesn't mean that you can ignore the author and comd up with your own inferior nonsense. It's not only wrong, it's maddeningly manipulative and deceptive.

[@grimb8kn748]

I saw an interview with a famous author who was talking about the issues with the show. He said something that really made sense to me. He explained that in his opinion the differences came down to a distinct difference in motivations/inspirations of the writers. Tolkien was heavily influenced by classical literature, history, and his own experience in WWI. On the other hand the show writers seem to be inspired/influenced by other movies/media as well as moral relativism.

[@cinnamon_biscuit08]

A director (orson Welles maybe) said that to make a good film you shouldn’t watch good films, but to read books and go outside to take inspiration

[@horridfuture3835]

Not only does rop ignore the source canon but it fails to maintain its own continuity. Such a joke of a show.

[@h.a.9880]

The crazy thing is that RoP literally can only break canon, unless it wants to violate its own copyrights. Amazon didn't buy the rights to Tolkien's works as a whole, they only bought the rights to the book and appendix of LOTR. They literally can't feature anything from the Hobbit or Silmarillon, unless it is mentioned in either LOTR or its appendix. So if they add a storyline featuring Galadriel during the second age, that is only mentioned in the Silmarillon, Amazon would be infringing on that copyright. There was never a chance in hell this show could ever align even remotely with canon, _full stop._ But even so, they failed to make a decent show based on what they had on their hands. The show could distance itself from the canon, do its own thing and still be entertaining... but it isn't, cause it's a trainwreck of stupid ideas and bad writing.

[@zombieranger3410]

It had every opportunity to make a great non-cannon story, take its own liberties and direction but instead it fails on all fronts. It instead tries to fruitlessly skirt around the contracts so they can have their lore cake and shit on it too, while also just being generally a bad TV show.

[@h.a.9880]

@@zombieranger3410 Imagine paying ludicrous amounts of money to obtain the name- and brand-recognition of LOTR and then go out of your way to betray it in every way you can.

[@zombieranger3410]

@@h.a.9880 I don’t have to imagine anything, it is reality. Once again I feel obligated to say people would genuinely murder in order to be in the position the writers had, yet Hollywood only hires nepobabies, people who fill in DEI checkmarks, and yes men who have 0 passion or background for their assigned project.

[@wombatillo]

And to consider that there are actual people out there who enjoy this travesty of a show.

[@watch-Dominion-2018]

Fire the showrunners out of a cannon

[@frankrizzo7746]

INTO THE SUN

[@Edelweiss1102]

@@frankrizzo7746 I'd prefer the fires of mount doom.

[@fairytaleandfablebooks]

@@Edelweiss1102 I prefer the burning trenches of WW1 from which Tolkien barely made it out alive from.

[@chetarchbold970]

I started following the Tolkien Professor around 2010. I liked him quite a lot. He’s a good guy and a real scholar, but the way he’s enthusiastically gone to bat for this show is disgraceful.

[@lesath7883]

I was one if the founders of the mecican Tolkien Society. The way they have been cheering for RoP revolts me. A friend saw RoP, and in 5 minutes shut it off for the stupidity it portrayed.

[@SaithMasu12]

@@lesath7883 Îm from the Panama Tolkien Society and i agree

[@Shawnaldo-jh3ve]

I'm no film making expert, but if someone gave me a billion dollars and told me to make the prequels to LOTR, Step 1 is to buy the rights to the prequel stories to LOTR.

[@brethilnen]

The rights for the Silmarillion are not for sale

[@EALS-pb5rs]

​​@@brethilnenIf I were the owner of the rights I'd be like: "no one is buying my shii"

[@Spobbles69420]

@@brethilnenthen they shouldn’t have made a show

[@stitch3163]

I seriously doubt the good Professor would have approved of the moniker Gilgadaddy. An extraordinarily fine video, Ploots.

[@TuorTheBlessedOfUlmo]

Lets not bring up the good professor. because otherwise you upset the Peter Jackson movies fans. who have their illusion broken

[@lars9925]

@@TuorTheBlessedOfUlmo You can enjoy the Peter Jackson movies while loving the original even more, you can't do that with RoP.

[@hamiham32]

​@@lars9925facts. The movies make me want to the read books and vice-versa. The show makes me want to jump into mt doom along with gollum

[@Davidofthelost]

@@hamiham32indeed. I’ve even imagined the characters as the actors. Or the old hobbit video game on the original Xbox being the ones talking. Which I also have to bring up a hack and slasher/puzzle solver video game from the early 2000’s paid more respect and appreciation for Tolkien’s works than a multi billion dollar company.

[@maxacorn]

and this is why a lot of modern writing sucks. they don't care about creating worlds. they only care about their message and making product. no one wants to take the time and energy to worldbuild. and when they see something with worldbuilding in it, they tear it down because it doesn't fit with their message/narrative/poltics. i've seen so many so called fans of "one piece" wishing death on the author because of the sex of one character doesn't fit with their own personal narrative. they can't create something from nothing like tolkien, asimov, herbert and lewis could, so they tear down their works to please themselves. and their fans lap it up.

[@TheHalogen131]

Where the hell did you take this beginning interview from? What sort of dark abyss could birth such an incredibly stupid take? I physically recoiled when I heard, that "there's no such thing as canon in Tolkien's work".

[@buckchoi]

from a fan and expert of course! -saw him in a thumbnail in recommendations, now I have a new channel to actively block!

[@Slayer398]

the exact line is here; "First thing to specify is that there's no such thing, really, as canon in Tolkien," Dr. Corey Olsen, The Tolkien Professor/President at Signum University, explained in an discussion shared by The Rings of Power Twitter account. "Tolkien's ideas were ever evolving." off of Yahoo, just in case you wanted to know exactly what the guy said.

[@henrikg1388]

@@Slayer398 Well, his ideas was actually ever evolving, but coming to the conclusion that there is no such thing as a canon because of it, is just as the video states, a complete vulgarization. The utter silliness of such a statement...

[@Slayer398]

@@henrikg1388 it just seems to be another reason for some justification for the multitude to changes to be honest.

[@gabrielcruz6752]

There may not be Full Canon at a detailed level of narrative design (dialogues, story arcs of specific characters), but Tolkien had a Canon at a conceptual level of design, a structural Canon, when he was about to start writing and editing the _Later Quenta_ Such structural Canon can be consulted at the _Tolkien Letter 131_ and in the chronology _Tales of the Years_ Amazon's RoP, Corey Olsen and Simon Tolkien are introducing deviations that are _nerfing_ (at best), neglecting, or destroying (at worst) the core themes and destroying the original structure of the story about the Rings of Power and the Fall of Númenorë at the conceptual level of design.

[@Zorbatrog]

Well put.

[@item6931]

I can't wait until Lord of the Rings becomes public domain so we can all write our own lore, like Lord of the Rings: Popular Hair Styles of the High Elves, or Lord of the Rings 2: Tom Bombadil and Gandalf - A Love Story, The Musical.

[@brethilnen]

You can right your owns lore right now? It is called fan fiction. Like RoP and PJ movies

[@awesomehpt8938]

I almost thought this was a video about the how important artillery is in warfare. Then I saw it was “canon” and not “cannon”.

[@jayt9608]

The proper placement of a cannon within canon may make all the difference, and to deface the canon by removing the cannon is an insult of highest degree.

@@jayt9608 Leave it to a cannon ball to know which is which. Well I guess you're a canon ball as well ba dump tiss okay I'll see myself out.

[@taudvore259]

I think Tolkien is a role model for all authors, and the comment about Lembas is why. It’s a facet of his world he obviously thought about and put consideration into and was irritated by its misrepresentation, but also freely admitted that it was a plot device to explain why he didn’t write scenes of Frodo and Sam hunting for food as they traveled. He had the right balance of pride and jealousy for his story, while remembering that it is still a story and to make concessions for that. More writers in all mediums of storytelling should try to have that attitude.

[@DisFantasy]

I don't remember if it was in the book, but Gollum being unable to consume it also alludes to his fallen nature.

[@cinnamon_biscuit08]

@DisFantasy That and his teeth would probably fall out if he bit it

[@joannaholden943]

If you dont like the original material and are going to create mostly your own material anyway...why not just make your own show about your own world and your own characters? All it would take is coming up with some new names and tweaking a handful of events. Oh yeah. And losing the guaranteed audience your entire budget depending on to sustain your show. 🤦

[@nevarmaor]

That is what IP is all about. Fleece the flock while they let you.

[@justthinkingoutloud2538]

Incredible video, this has got to be the most scathing critique of the show I've seen as it's just allowing the professor to speak from the grave himself. I can't imagine what he's thinking up there looking down at all this...

[@picklerick.n.666]

And for the 16th time: God bless you and your work sir L.P. deep respect from Croatia-Europe ❤❤❤❤

[@johncaldwell4709]

THIS IS THE VIDEO I HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR!!

[@Lady_ETHNE]

Holy crap this is amazing. Your script is incredible and your voice is very clear and understandable . Great work

[@seikkv4371]

"There's no such thing really as canon in Tolkien." Oh sir, thank you, thank you so much, i needed to laugh so hard today after my depression grab my balls again, this was perfect.

[@GulagMoosefeller]

Rop looks so ridiculous. Imagine the delusion they must have to not feel shame for wasting their time making that trash.

[@jmoountfort5204]

One of the things people overlook about canon is that it is about more than making nitpickers happy or showing respect to living or dead creators, it about respecting oneself enough to refuse to be tied down by what others have created. It is precisely those who say "I am not tied down by the source material", and yet produce botched copies of it, who are confessing to themselves and the world that they have nothing new to offer and can only produce variations that barely qualify as true variations (variations are humble and playful). Their dependence on someone else's original story is much, much greater than, say, someone who merely follows the conventions of a genre. It is a far better and more creative thing to be a genre hack than someone who copies inaccurately and then says "look what I did!".

[@eatatjoecs]

This is a magnificent analysis. I very much hope someone from Amazon watches this video, but I am not holding my breath.

[@christianefiorito3204]

I love this little essays

[@militant_daisies]

you are a true light in a dark place, when all other lights went out.

[@PenttiLinkola23]

Hello my fellow grand elfs.

[@TheDetectiveEngineer]

Greetings fellow Sorrow-Man

[@CommanderZx2]

The way they crowbarred that grand elf line in there reminded me of them giving Han Solo his name.

[@Gorbz]

I am but a radical ghast.

[@creatrixZBD]

Good morrow, my name is Kelly Brimboring

[@spartanhawk7637]

Ah, but are we not all Thomas Bombadillos here?

[@keenkolo5767]

Tolkien is exactly my kind of guy. Detail everything. Have a purpose that is impactful. Nitpick every thought. Amazing.

[@madebymonkeys5641]

Tolkien wrote a story reflecting the lost history of England after the viking invasion of the 800s and the Norman invasion of 1066. A lost history over written by the dominant culture of the day. History...IS LITERALLY CANON.... its lineal, there for not subjective. Tolkien by writing LOTR as a fantasy HISTORY, means that it is not subjective, and not open to 'A RE-IMAGENING'.... end of conversation.

[@AliciatheCho]

Tolkien drew inspiration without intending allegory. He drew inspiration from various other cultures even Egyptian when it came to Numenor. The Rohirrim has many Anglo-Saxon traits but they weren’t horse people. That’s more like Western Steppe

[@madebymonkeys5641]

@AliciatheCho history by definition is not allegory. Tolkien was a historian, he taught history. LOTR is not subjective, lore was written as a factual part of that world, it is inspired by his real life experience, but enclosed in its own reality. Once you start to interpret, you are lost. Unlike real history, Tolkien created a single vision, middle earth is from one mind, thus resists interpretation, allegory, translation, adaptation, embellishment and correction. It would be like me telling you that your dream last night was wrong, then informing you, the dreamer, how your own dream should have gone. It's ridiculous.

[@creatrixZBD]

With respect, just one point. History is not “lineal.” The way we tell history is. Very different.

[@leriava]

​@creatrixZBD Agree. Also, History is deeply sujective even if facts are not, because history is the (re)telling of such facts and therefore capable of multiple interpretations.

[@madebymonkeys5641]

@leriava history..... storytelling. One is lineal, and the other is constantly changing. When we watch footage of Martin Luther Kings 'I have a dream speech, it doesn't change, it's a still moment in time..... Its NOT subjective, history is NOT subjective when we have the SORCE MATERIAL.... LOTR IS THE SORCE MATERIAL .... it is NOT subjective, and isn't open to Amazon messing with it.

[@FatphobeforLife]

I haven't been watching this dreck; it's enough to see the youtube reviews: the weird race swapping and cosmopolitan homogenization, the complete but obviously deliberate misunderstanding of Galadriel's character---I mean this list goes on and on. But I happened to notice that a new "death" was introduced for Sauron. This is so obviously lore breaking and unacceptable that that alone, if I knew nothing else, would cause me to turn away in disgust.

[@613harbinger316]

That first claim that there's no canon in Tolkien, reminds me strongly of that guy who was on that Canadian show with Dr. Peterson who opened with, "there's no such thing as biological sex." (They actually look a bit similar)

[@Molly-ey6lq]

They know they're lying, we know they're lying, they know we know they're lying, and yet they lie still.

[@dendrien]

ah yes, the mind of a narcissist. i can never be wrong even when i know im wrong because only i matter therefor im correct

[@Stothehighest]

​@@dendrien Stop watering down the word narcissist. Being right is *not* a component of the behavior. It's being the "best thing ever, worship me" that's the detail. They'll admit to being incorrect if they think it makes them look good. What they're doing is called being irrational, not narcissist.

[@dendrien]

@@Stothehighest narcissism how it’s defines and operate IS by itself illogical. What I stated holds true regardless.

[@picklerick.n.666]

We needed a video Like this because we all know that the only thing that this show has in common with the real lore in his books is the names of some people and The name of places that almost no one in the show speaks normally... I was googling for weeks now for a video like this and my friends who didn't read the books would also like to know how it all really went down especially the downfall of Numenor. Respect form Croatia-Europe ❤❤❤❤

[@cmcapps1963]

And to think I uses to be a big fan of Corey Olsen.

[@jonathansoko1085]

I am by no means a tolkien expert. But I own all of his published books and I've tried to research his papers and letters that exist out there. I feel like tolkiej very much created a Canon of his own and was very much a gatekeeper of it. Reading the silmarillion feels like a literal Canon focus literary book. How can any so-called Tolkien professor claim otherwise? I don't understand unless he has ulterior motives. JRR clearly created a eork he intended to be taken as he oresented it. Ala, canon. If any work was heavily canon reliant its JRR works.

[@RamblesBrambles]

So what happened to poopy , the grand elf and the Ball rag?

[@ShamashintheWest]

I believe the failure to understand Tolkien’s lore was demonstrated from the very beginning, in S1E1 in the scene where Finrod speaks to Galadriel about the boat. The line “the boat looks up while the rock looks down” to refer to light and darkness, I’m pretty sure was meant to call back to Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth from The Complete Histories. However the contexts between the uses are completely different; Andreth is not a young elf girl with anger management issues. She’s an elderly mortal woman who feels spurned in love and is bitter about the fate of Men. The debate focuses on the topic of the differences and roles between Men and Elves, with Andreth maintaining that the fate of Men is worse and that Men were altered from their beginning to be as they are now. The old lore of Men is that nothing in Eru’s creation was meant to die, that all things were meant to live without end, and because Men die something must have changed them. Then comes the whisper of hope - and here is the most important part relating to RoP. In this conversation about death and the question regarding the fates of Elves and Men (Men in particular), Finrod points out that Men and Elves perceive hope differently. Andreth says: “What is hope?An expectation of good, which though uncertain as some foundation in what is known? Then we have none.” And this is Finrod’s answer: “That is one thing that Men call ‘hope’. Amdir we call it, ‘looking up’. But there is another which is founded deeper. Estel we call it, that is ‘trust’…”. That “trust” being the trust that all things will come into fruition rebounding into the will of Eru which will save all his Children so that the deed & suffering of Men (and Elves) ultimately serve a purpose towards their salvation. The problem in RoP, either accidentally or intentionally, becomes that Finrod just taught hit little elf sister ‘hope’ as it is understood by Men in Tolkien’s works, and in the context of Athrabeth it’s implied that this understanding is either confused or incomplete in some way. Then it kind of becomes clear why the writing for the elves is so strange if the writers didn’t understand the debate this way, and why they make the eves fear death, hunting mithril to avoid dying, in a way they really shouldn’t because they will only really die once the world ends. It may also illustrate a misunderstanding on the RoP writers’ understanding of light and darkness in Tolkien’s world where the ‘light’ isn’t just good, nice things, but faith and trust in Eru, whereas as darkness is the betrayal of Eru specifically - not a matter of simple temptations from a dude you may find kind of hot.

[@MadCaril]

This show's sole purpose was to make female characters look strong as per modern standards, male characters look weak, and to insert DEI characters. i remember watching the LOTR trilogy and seeing Arwen facing the Nine, Eowyn killing the Witch King and Galadriel looking like an absolute Goddess and it felt natural and amazing. Geography was also respected.

[@jojobookish9529]

The show's sole purpose, per statements from Amazon, is to bring in new Prime subscriptions, sell merchandise, and generate social media buzz in the hopes of capturing mass collective attention to become a cultural phenomenon like early GoT. And that is way, way worse.

[@darthvader822]

"i remember watching the LOTR trilogy and seeing Arwen facing the Nine" That's not in the book and it is a horrendous piece of revisionism. But it doesn't fit into the narrative people like you have where only ROP revisionism is bad which is why no one really pays you much attention outside other alt.right types on the internet. Also why we'll probably get a third series of ROP: you people NEVER stop giving it free publicity.

[@jojobookish9529]

​​​​@@darthvader822 Amazon was originally contracted for 5 seasons with the Estate. Obviously I don't know the full details of that contract, but they may be obligated to produce 5 seasons regardless of viewing metrics. It's well known Bezos doesn't care about burning money. Replacing Glorfindel, an awesome but admittedly one-off character insignificant to the overall story of LotR itself, with Arwen -- Aragorn's beloved and future queen-- is a sound choice as far as adaptation goes. She has significance to Aragorn's arc, therefore the audience needs more opportunities to see her and get to know her. Having her take Glorfindel's place in no way contradicts the central philosophy of the Legendarium or the nature of Elves generally. HOWEVER: having her take over Frodo's defiance at the Ford was *not* a sound adaptational choice, IMO, as that significantly weakened Frodo as a character. My friend and I would go get slushie refills during her weepy scene every time. 😆 Compare that change to the whole cloth invention of a Sudden Onset Vitamin Valinor deficiency that will cause all the Elves to fade within a year all of a sudden after millenia of being totally fine, or Elendil saying to "forget the past!", or Gil-galad parsing out passage to Valinor like a reward, or "Elves are taking our jobs!, making Elrond kiss his mother in law purely to generate internet engagement, removing the close working friendship between Eregion and Khazad-dum completely...a lot of those choices do contradict or outright ignore the central spirit of the original work. They took Gandalf's iconic line about mercy and put it in Bombadil's mouth with a new meaning of "you can't save everyone", purely for the sake of making a reference. That is not sound adaptational direction, and from a story perspective tells me that the committee writing this show has little to no care for the original work's rules or themes. I mean, come on, they named an Elf "Mirdania" when -ia isn't a Sindarin personal name suffix. And you can call that a nitpick, but Tolkien would have eaten his pipe at that. Those languages were his life's work, and the whole reason the story even exists. They couldn't even be bothered to get that right. (And before you assume things, I've never voted any flavor of Right or authoritarian in my life and never will. I credit Tolkien's work with being foundational to my development of empathy, cultural sensitivity, and respect for nature).

[@darthvader822]

@@jojobookish9529 "Replacing Glorfindel, an awesome but admittedly one-off character insignificant to the overall story of LotR itself, with Arwen -- Aragorn's beloved and future queen-- is a sound choice as far as adaptation goes" You watched it you were a kid and therefore have no critical judgement didn't you? No. The destruction of the nine could only have been achieved by Gandalf ( a maiar) and Elrond's combined power-literally two of the most powerful characters in the whole of Middle-Earth and two of the three bearers of the elven rings. Entrusting the task to a single elf-woman with no magic artificacts is absurd. I'm sure there are kids growing up now who will make up some cherry-picked rationalization for the stuff in ROP but they are no better and no worse than you.

[@einfachignorieren6156]

​@@darthvader822seeth harder

[@janette2422]

If there is 'no such thing as canon in Tolkien'...then I would like to know PRECISELY WHY the Professor himself turned down multiple big-money offers during his own lifetime for adaptations of his work, and his reason for doing so never changed. "You do not understand my work'. Therefore......it is VERY MUCH....'canon'.

[@CallMeChato]

You never cease to amaze me.

[@SteveRowe]

Outstanding essay, Platoon.

[@rimservices]

"Bombadil comes in with a gentle laugh," indeed

[@lostalone9320]

The one thing that the film trilogy has is a sense of authenticity - It is not simply Tolkien's words on film, but it feels like it could be. When Peter Jackson was making them, he wasn't interested in changing anything, just in choosing the right parts to put on screen to tell the story.

[@bring-out]

Simon Tolkien is the new Judas

[@warrentalbot329]

More than that he is Brutis with knife in hand . His own ideas stabbing his family in the back. He is Brutis

[@Tallacus]

With Gene Roddenberry's son

[@astaldo-eo5xp]

I consider it a smart move, hear me out: The Tolkiens have always been wary of selling and thereby possibly perverting the works, and I assume had the same expectations of Amazon's truthfulness to the original as we all. Therefore they gave up the rights to only these appendices, which where already given up in the course of Jackson's adaptation. These appendices are rather incomplete concerning the contents of the Silmarillion, so it was probably clear to the Tolkiens that any adaptation could only become utter dogshit anyway - thus letting Amazon run into its doom while securing funds to keep protecting the real treasures! Simultaneously the worth of the original is only further highlighted by the comparison to whatever the hell Rings of Power turned out... I think Simon is a genius.

[@bring-out]

@@astaldo-eo5xp That's quite the little story you spun inside that head of yours. I hope you realize it's not the same as reality. Simon has been quite involved in this production, actually. He wanted to make Sauron into Walter White and he pushed for keeping Adar alive much longer than the showrunners had planned simply because he liked the character. As a struggling, untalented writer himself, despite having the best position imaginable to succeed, and active in the production you can be sure Simon did not think that this show would be dog shit. The very real danger of releasing such a show is that the younger generations who haven't read Tolkien get the impression he's not worth reading based on this show. There's so much competition of people's attention these days so a dusty old tome like The Silmarillion simply won't be bothered with. Simon Tolkien a genius... Jeez...

[@astaldo-eo5xp]

@@bring-out I stand corrected.

[@elMentity]

This is so eye opening. Thank you for collecting Tolkien's commenary on adaptations in such a thoughtful essay. Liked and subscribed, as I also did with The Little Platoon of old...

[@NourArt02]

I think if Tokein read the draft for the Jackson Trilogy, there is a 90% change that he would've roasted them just as he did with Zimmerman, but i also think he would've made them worse with his remarks, On the other hand if he read the draft for TROP, he most likely would've beaten McKay and Payne to death with a golf club

[@Kevin-hg5zb]

That was really well said. I can tell you spent a long time on that!

[@Cattensu]

It is very interesting to truely discover how similar my opinions about adaption line up with Professor Tolkien's. I have generaly dislked most adapted works (movies) that I have come upon since I was a small child of 8 years old and I found the book that a movie I enjoyed at the time was based on. The Swiss Family Robinson. I fell in love the the book, and subsequently found that I disliked the movie for how silly and annoying they made the characters, how the removed characters, changed names of characters, and shortened the length the family is alone on the island. And form that point on, I have been very critical of any movie that is based on books I love. I am particularly critical of Howl's Moving Castle. That movie takes the characters names, some elements of the setting, and that is it.

[@item6931]

What Swiss family would have the name, "Robinson"?

[@Cattensu]

@@item6931 Robinsonade is a genre in writing. The name originates from Robinson Crusoe. The title Swiss Family Robinson Plays off of that genre name.

[@wavetactics13]

Counter to your claim that the Nazgul are completely silent, there are points in the novels where they emit bone chilling screams. So while Jackon increased the amount they scream on screen, that isn't an element absent from the novels.

[@stewartgillings7151]

Indeed. There are cases in the books where people hear their cries. See: The Fellowship of the Ring; A Shortcut to Mushrooms. The Return of the King; The Siege of Gondor. "Pippin knew the shuddering cry that he had heard: it was the same that he had heard long ago in the Marish of the Shire, but now it was grown in power and hatred, piercing the heart with a poisonous despair." There are cases in the books where people hear their words. Old Gaffer Gamgee; Farmer Maggot; Gandalf; Eowyn. I think this counts as canon.

[@TimoYlhainen]

One such insident at Buckelbury ferry.

[@platinumbrickproductions8319]

​​@@stewartgillings7151 Frodo talks to them at the Ford of Bruinin, and it's implied that they spoke with a few people in bree, including butterbur.

[@opalo4113]

“The canons of narrative in any medium cannot be wholly different; and the failure of poor films is often precisely in exaggeration, and in the intrusion of unwarranted matter owing to not perceiving where the core of the original lies.” -J.R.R. Tolkien

[@ledoem]

That's a quite good "little" essay! You have earned a new follower 👍

[@secretfirebooks7894]

Tolkien disowns RoP from beyond the grave, confirmed.

[@patriciafenwick5846]

More video essays like this, please. This was extremely good 👍

[@517darknight]

Wow, I love Tolkien even more now. His comments are pure gold, apparently idiots have always been trying to adapt LOTR

[@ThatSockmonkey]

I didnt even know you had a second channel. Yes, i would like to watch exerpts of videos I've already watched a dozen times, thank you. 😊

[@ericv00]

Oh wow. Reading those notes from Tolkien gives me confidence in my own writing, considering I notice a fair few similarities in sentiment and articulation. Maybe I will write today...

[@Key-fe3gg]

The only man on youtube to listen to on .75 speed. Excellent, incisive analysis.

[@philipphammer3474]

Exactly that. This video should automatically be linked under each and every comment that compares Jacksons adaptation to the abomination that RoP is.

[@lauren_s9037]

This video is absolute gold! Great work 👏

[@MrPonytron]

I could only imagine what Tolkien's reaction to Rings of Power would be. If he saw the script, he'd make sure the show never saw the light of day and find some intelligent way of insulting Amazon

[@Kevin-hb7yq]

They could do 200 movies and not have to change a thing. An entire series centered around the Prancing Pony. An epic tale of the rise and fall of Weathertop. The Tree Ents. Seriously, actual production companies can't think up a couple movies about the history and lives of the Tree Ents? Radagast the Brown biograph/adventure. Tom Bombadil's life. The Barrow-blade that Merry stabbed into the Witch-king severing the ring curse.. how did a Barrow Wight get it? How long did the Wight terrorize the area? It really doesn't seem like there is a shortage of material to work with here...

[@RRTNZ]

Cheers Ploots, well said. If the twerp writers and showrunner of Rings of Power listened to this video, they'd get a headache. If they actually read what Tolkien himself had to say, their heads would explode. However, they do seem to have read the Zimmerman draft and taken inspiration from it.

[@charlesmartinez5869]

20:28 In film, perhaps a terrifying lack of sound, like a deadening of nature could have worked for the film. Throw in a color washing out, an quiet exhi of a crypt at midnight, and emphasis on characters' visible panic could get the point across with a keeping of the lack of screech. This was probably discussed at some point, and decided that the screetch was better, especially for the battles, but it's a thought.

[@Maulyr]

This is absolutely magnificent work. Very well done.

[@lepinef1]

My only real complaint with the Jackson adaptation was taking Glorfindel out and replacing with Arwen, although to be fair Tolkien did say in the peoples of middle earth that it wasn't the Glorfindel from Gondolin that defeated the Balrog single handed. In my mind they will always be the same elf 😁. Great video. Oh and anyone who has read the letter's of JRR Tolkien knows that the man was a genius (to say nothing of the Oxford English Dictionary) and the morons that wrote rings of power are not worthy to sniff his underwear.

[@KendrickEdits]

Rings of Power: Tumblr Fanfic

[@jeramahia123]

I actually found the books to be relatively shorter. They're longer, sure, because it takes much longer to describe things in a book than it does to just show them in a movie. But a lot more happens in the movies. Like the whole subplot of Merry and Pipin with Treebeard is only one chapter in the books and there's not even any of the stuff about treebeard needing to be convinced to go to war. We don't even get to see the battle with the ents. Same with the battle of Helms Deep; it's only one chapter long. There isn't even a final battle at the end of the first book, at least none that we see either. A lot of scenes with many characters that add extra dept to them were only added in the movies. Yes, the movies left a few non-consequential things from the books out (e.g., the barrow weights and Tom Bombadill), but the movies added so much good stuff that Tolkien never wrote.

[@AkamoriArt]

Who is that idiot that said that Tolkien has no canon? Where did he derive this information? Because every instance I have ever seen of Tolkien speaking, personally, all allude to him being very adamant -if not anal- about his story having a very true, very concrete, very intended series of events, history, and lore.

[@vanks1391]

What an amazing vídeo. Point made; not-so-especialist properly exposed; unknown (for me at last) Tolkien writting and toughts discovered. thank you, sir.

[@niefali]

"Inspired by Tolkien" is the most generous description I can give to Rop. "Loosely based on" would also be fine. ^^

[@Dil-DoeShaggings]

Even those are a bit too generous

[@Melvin-Deeply]

This is good

[@julesjma]

The only benefit is that Mr. Tolkien isn't alive to see his books completely turned into sewage.

[@TherealLeroy]

Thanks for another banger LP!

[@weekendatbidens8652]

Love your deep dives. Very analytical, and I don’t know how people try and counter argue your points. Amazon stole Tolkien’s work and bastardized it completely. It’s so sad because they COULD have made this so good! But they failed in every way.

Rings of Slop am I right fellow canon enjoyers. 16:00 He totally got it.

[@tuorofgondolin8235]

There *is* a system of tiered canon in Tolkien's works. Roughly, material that Tolkien wrote and lived to see published, and was always intended to be set in Middle-earth. This is the top tier. LotR itself is the only thing that occupies this tier. Then you have material that meets all of the above conditions but which was instead *not* originally intended to take place in Middle-earth. This is the (revised) Hobbit. And then you have material that was *not* published by Tolkien, but was written by him and always was intended to be set in Middle-earth. Within this are several finer tiers, but the Silmarillion is what I usually put here. However, parts of Sil were actually written not by JRR Tolkien, but by his son Christopher and also by Guy Gaveriel Kay. In fact, Christopher Tolkien (CT) later said that he regretted some of the choices he made when putting Sil together. After that, you get stuff like Unfinished Tales, then the History of Middle-earth, and then things like Letters which were (usually) about Middle-earth things, but were addressed to specific people and not the general public. But even if you don't accept my particular definition about what occupies which tier, it's pretty obvious that different works compel different levels of respect when it comes to Tolkien's writings. I think tiered canon is definitely a thing in regards to Tolkien's writings.

[@debanydoombringer1385]

The first 2 parts of The Silmarillion were indeed written, put together, and published by Tolkien. The 3rd and final part was by Christopher. The other books you listed are ideas that he'd written while figuring out LotR or possible expansion he was toying with. That's why you'll find contradictions on how some of the characters are portrayed. I believe there was something like 11 drafts of LotR before he settled on the final one.

[@tuorofgondolin8235]

@@debanydoombringer1385 But he *did* settle on a final one and published it. That's not true of Sil.

[@lesath7883]

8:35 What can be cut? Non-core content. eg: Tom Bombadil, the Barrow Wights, Beorn. What can be changed? What is necessary to make that cut story make sense. eg: Aragorn giving the hobbits their Barrow Daggers. What can be added? Nothing. Because adding content means you are putting yourself as above the original work and the original artist. It is an act of hubris.

[@sneekydevil]

Thank you, this is one of the best and well constructed arguments on the topic of Tolkien and canon, and his perceived attitude to adaptations that I have seen. Anyone thinking that he would have done anything other than watch aghast in horror at what Rings of Power has done to his legendarium is deluded, as are these idiots now trying to claim that there is no canon in Tolkien!

[@pawarl.o.s.881]

I do not envy Simon Tolkien, it's probably not easy knowing that those that came before you were far, smarter, talented, and ten times the man he'll ever be.

[@Prokaryon]

Excellent. Beautifully structured.

[@Glenn1440-p1p]

At 6:35, idk if you purposely edited it so that it looked like Gandalf was lip syncing your monologue, but coincidental or not, it was comedy gold! 🤩

[@jneumy566]

I'll put in my two cents as an aspiring author working on his first series with the hopes of publishing. If it were my work getting adapted (which in this day and age I wouldn't trust anyone to do so anyway) I would understand the difficulty of such a task, especially since the mediums of film and literature are so different. The biggest priority is the maintain, as Tolkien says, the core, the reason the author wrote the story in the first place, the main themes they wished to convey to the audience through the story. Keeping characters consistent comes just below that. It's still incredibly important to make sure they still have the personalities, flaws, and arcs the author gave them since the characters directly influence and help show the theme through their actions and such. The world itself and the specifics of its lore and the events are last, though still not unimportant. These are the things I'd be willing to tweak in order to compress the story into a better runtime for a film, or to simplify some aspects of the world that might be too complex to properly show via visual rather than literary. (perhaps finding a way to combine two character flashbacks into one that, while something different might happen than in the book, it will still convey the point about the character and his history and growth that I need it to, or adjusting the rules of some mental magic system similar to how Dune Part 2 handled the Water of Life) But my view on canon is that if you can, keep it as close as possible to the author's vision because they made it that way for a reason. This is not your story to tell. You aren't the one who created it, and legal rights or not, you have no moral right to change it if you can help it. You are only a steward of it, whose job is to bring the author's story to screen in the best way possible. It's why, drastically different as it is, I still enjoy the Dune movies as adaptations. There is a lot they change and leave out, and it wouldn't be accurate to compare it to Frank Herbert's Dune, but it's still the story of Dune. It maintains the primary message he had in mind when writing it, it prioritizes showing Paul Atreides as a charismatic leader and using his story as intended, as a warning against such leaders. Dune Part 2 changed and took out a lot of what I had been looking forward to, but it also nailed showing Paul as an antihero and making us question whether he really is "the good guy". In writing my own story, I've played with the idea of adaption and gone through it and thought about what I might change and how I might change it so that it still stays true to what I'm trying to convey, as well as the things I'd be much more resistant to changing.

[@temjiu9915]

I think there is Cannon. Tolkien made his world, he wrote the story, so it's the Cannon. No one ever bothered to mention the word when it came to Tolkien because there wasn't any challenge to his canon. You simply cannot improve on the near perfection that was Tolkien's work, so no one tried. Until now. Now we have a group of idiots who want to destroy what Tolkien made, and usurp his Cannon. So now we have this discussion.

[@stephAnima]

First and foremost, I thank you for this quite well researched video 🧡 . While I did enjoy all other critics supporting the idea of why ROP was a failure, none that I had watched actually shared Tolkien's point of view about the then-contemporary adaptations. I can't believe that the producers didn't do their part of researching that aspect. It's one thing to make a series inspired of LOR, it's another to claim it would be canon. Even worse, I would think they would have (perhaps) a better chance having a sequel rather than a prequel, because you're not really wondering (while watching canon) oh, so that's why they did this and that, while in reality, it is by watching canon that you might start having the ideas of ''what if, from this point forth, they decide to do this and that and that'', but then again, to do a sequel means to undo the resolved plot in LOTR, to suppose that it wasn't really THAT solved and it needs improving. Gosh, one way or another, however I think of it, coming up with sequels and prequels is essentially claiming that the original needs improvement upon... Just.. let.. canon.. be...

[@debanydoombringer1385]

A following of it into the age of man would have been okay. There would be no reason to touch the ending.

[@stephAnima]

@@debanydoombringer1385 indeed!

[@mlizu2554]

I’d argue that your video gives a lot of interesting facts to light :) honestly really helpful to compare Rings of Power to Zimmerman’s work. I’d just want to clear out a few things that I think the video could dive more deeply upon, firstly if we look at every aspect except the writing of the show, I believe you can find a lot more love and respect towards Tolkien’s works, for example the music the visual aspect and the acting ( or most of it anyways ). Where I think you are absolutely correct are some of the absurd choices such as Elrond Kids and Gandalf 🤦‍♂️. I still believe as an adaptation of the Second age I am not actually disappointed and still enjoy the watch, sadly not Lord of the Rings Peter Jackson level that’s for sur but still pleasant and thankful to have an adaptation.

[@mlizu2554]

Other absurd choices inclu: - Forging of rings in the wrong order ? ( it kind of works but why ???) - Sauron Blob - Galadriel and Sauron romance ?!?! Weird aspects that I’d argue match the series and aren’t downsides: - Mixed race races, I believe that the show’s attempts to include cultural diversity in the show actually works really well and isn’t necessary but doesn’t ruin anything. I think Ismael Cruz Cordova for example really plays his role well. And Disa Durin’d wife is a really good character and I love the actresses performance

[@ggt47]

Gandalf sayiny "yeah" is something I never would have thought I would hear Gandalf say.

[@0Defensor0]

That Gandalf = Grand Elf part reminded me of something: how many languages have the books been translated to again? According to the Wiki, 87 translations in 57 languages. What do you think, in how many of those languages does this pun work? A few probably, which are the most similar to English. I know that the ability of their work to be translated is usually not a priority for writers, I just wanted to mention it because I think that retconning Gandalf's name into a very specific pun was a really bad choice. For comparison, Hodor is mechanically the same, but the context of the scene provides flexibility: "hold the door" becomes "protect it well" in Hungarian, which works well enough.

[@Tai_Fung]

I do love me a TLP mini-essay.

[@TOONYBOY]

The conversation around adaptation and how some things have to be lost between two different mediums of storytelling because they *ARE* _fundamentally different mediums_ is a really annoying one, because you get so many wilfully ignorant and needlessly combative idiots saying shit like "You just want a 1-1 frame-by-frame recreation of every level from every single Halo game. LEARN TO LET GO (No, fuck off)". That is an insanely mentally-deprived statement to make. I don't need to see Master Chief _walking_ through an exploding ship with a gun that never moves in the exact same posture while he avoids enemy plasma fire by floating through the air in slow motion when he jumps. What I *DO* need to see is the Pillar of Autumn desperately fleeing the Covenant Fleet of Particular Justice as they try to escape the recently-glassed planet of Reach, one of the most important planets in the Human-Covenant war as they now can no longer create more Spartan II soldiers, while also losing an entire team of 6 Spartan II's to the same invasion as they died trying to get "an artifact" off-planet that can apparently decide Humanity's fate in this war. What I need to see is the Pillar of Autumn being commanded by a composed and intelligent Captain Jacob Keyes who discovers the Halo Ring and strategically tries to preserve Humanity's chance of survival when the Fleet of Particular Justice catches up by waking up "our old friend" Master Chief, scuttling the Pillar of Autumn to save as many people as possible while he distracts the Covenant fleet and crash-lands on the Halo Ring. I don't need to have a 1-1 dialogue recreation from every single character in every single cutscene in-game. What I do need is for the purpose of that dialogue to be adequately translated for the show/movie, whatever form that takes.

[@ayotundeayoko5861]

so, we actually have insights into the great professor Tolkien's attitudes towards adaptations (silifications) and how he was even critical of a script that deviated from his creation... how did that "Tolkien professor" ignore (or miss) all these???

[@hibikiverney4146]

"Evil cannot create anything new, they can only corrupt and ruin good forces have invented or made" John Ring Book Guy.

[@seanfoltz7645]

The true challenge to an adaptation is how true you hold to the spirit of the adaptation - I've written a series of books myself and have thought about how they would work as a streaming series and I, the author, have noted countless scenes and parts which either would need to be changed, cut or otherwise adapted in a very different manner than the book due to the limitations and constraints of the medium of film. That said, I would still ensure that the adaptation was true to the spirit of the scene, chapter or whatever that needed changing. That was Amazon's first failure - their second was the characters. You can do a sequel or even an original story so long as you stay true to the characters - if you make up your own story for them, then fans of the original have to be able to say "yes, I agree that this is how that character would have handled the situation" and so long as they do, then they will accept it. ROP failed because if you removed the names, then none of the characters are recognizable anymore, with most of them not even being able to be said to be rip-offs of the originals - seeing Galadriel but naming her something different, you would never even think to say "Oh, they were trying to rip off Galadriel with this character." Finally, there's the lore - the rules of the universe which you are playing in. A huge complaint about the Disney Star Wars and ROP is the failure to follow the lore as the lore is what makes an IP its own unique world - break them without an extremely good reason and/or explaining that this was a once in forever exception (again, without a reason which adheres to the lore) will not be tolerated by the fans, never mind breaking them multiple times...such as by having people constantly shrug off getting run through by a lightsaber. Disney SW and Amazon ROP broke all three of those major rules, then just for good measure, smeared "the message" all over everything to boot, thus ensuring that the fans of those IPs would totally and utterly reject them.

[@tkeus991]

The Zimmerman script is in a collection at Marquette university. I would assume scholars from there can get access to it from the library and take a look at it. From what I was able to find out, full script is not publicly available nor was it digitized

[@Barghaest]

I understand changes need to be made for film adaptations of literary works; however, my complaints about Jackson’s work (overall I enjoyed them) are rooted in changes I felt were unnecessary and I believe Tolkien would have felt the same… such as the introduction of a love story by giving Arwen more of a role, this has nothing to do with adaptation of medium and is instead rooted in Hollywood have a meta formula for what makes a film successful thinking every film needs a love interest/story to reach a particular audience. Lord of the Rings isn’t for people who NEED a love story in everything they see, it’s not the point of the story to appeal to all audiences it is the point of the story to tell a particular message.

[@MasterPeibol]

We are reaching a level of post-truth and relativism that I don't know if we will be able to tell cohesive stories anymore...