The Epilogue of Rhythm of War: What Really Happened?

This epilogue has been on my mind for months! It's about time we finally discussed it.
Twitter: / lost_discovery
#stormlightarchive #brandonsanderson #rhythmofwar
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Rhythm of War is book 4 in Brandon Sanderson's epic fantasy series, the Stormlight Archive.
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[@studynot757]

Literally the most terrifying scene that Brandon has written yet

[@GeorgeSagen]

I'm still traumatized from when Shallan exposed her safehand in a room full of men.

[@sodbiligganbat9092]

Righhttttt I felt like I got slapped hahahaha "wait..what!? Did Wit act or did he actually lose his memories?" But i figure since he said "Wit felt fear" i am expecting the worsttttt Bruvv I need the 5th book

[@studynot757]

@@sodbiligganbat9092 sums up my fears pretty well. The fear that he felt is what gets me...

[@tvellalott]

I don't know, Vin and Zane attacking Cett's soldiers in WOA was pretty disturbing.

[@alansmithee419]

@@GeorgeSagen Odd how the context of a book can make something as harmless as a hand uncomfortable. Though um... you read warbreaker?

[@DARTHeeek]

The coin is important. When Hoid is back talking to Todium the second time, he looks down at the coin he's still holding and has a moment. He's sure the coin should be tucked away in his waistband. But, he's still holding it and I think it's acting as a trigger to remind him that he'd used it as a coppermind. While Todium was messing with his breaths, he stored that very memory into the coin. I'm positive that's how it will play out.

[@AnathemaMysticalcel]

That would make sense. We see coins being used as metal minds in the wax and Wayne series.

[@crookshanks259]

Oh shit I didn't even think of that, but we know he has been to Scadriel in the past and he seems to have some method of acquiring investiture that he shouldn't be able to.

[@MiniRokys]

I'm here too late, but, we know he is Mistborn, but Feruchem?

[@rowser4472]

@@MiniRokys I think he took one of the Lerasium beads

[@MiniRokys]

@@rowser4472 that doesn't make a person feruchem, only full powered allomancer. Feruchemy was on Scadrial before Ruin or Preservation (if I remember correctly)

[@mikem1585]

I like to think Hoid was indeed fooled, because it’s far more terrifying that way. It sets up the new Odium as a formidable threat while simultaneously taking Hoid down a peg...this is the first time we have ever seen Hoid seemingly not in control. It removes the element of perceived safety that no matter what happens Hoid has everything together.

[@Divinemakyr]

Taravodium is one of the most intimidating antagonists in any book I've read.

[@SRosenberg203]

Taravodium is a way better name for him than Todium lmao

[@connor_phillipz5689]

@@SRosenberg203 Tod for short. All Hail Tod.

[@zachschroeder1796]

IDK, I'd say Kelsier comes close, if not equal. make no mistake, Kelsier is an antagonist no matter how much you love him. SPOILERS "We "know" from his short stories that he manipulated Spook into violating himself with Hemalurgy and can infer from Wax and Wayne that he then hijacked Spook's body to use as his own, that's not something a hero or even an anti-hero does, that is straight up villain behavior. and I would not put it past Sanderson to pull the rug out from under us and have Kelsier be the "phase 3" big bad after Taravodium.

[@henryward5457]

@@zachschroeder1796 While I agree that Kelsier is becoming an antagonist, it is unfair to blame him for Spook's problems. It specifically says in Secret History that by the time he meets up with Spook, Spook was already influenced by Ruin. As to the second part of your claim, Kelsier said to Spook that he needed to find a new body. He did not say or imply that he would use Spook's body. We know that Kelsier and Spook had a high opinion of each other, which makes a hostile takeover even less likely. In fact, the only evidence of evil in Kelsier is his prejudice and hate of nobility, as well as his exploits as Th.

[@edwinvillalobos7159]

@@henryward5457 wait didn’t kelsier die? I’m new to the expanded cosmere I’ve only read mistborn era one and stormlight didn’t realize they were connected till I saw some characters reappear. Is kelsier one of those world hopper ppl like yahsna?

[@samuelsly3733]

I actually listened to the book in audiobook format and it was interesting because in the first conversation the narrator is using Teravangians voice for Odium. Then after the memories were taken in the second conversation he is using Rayze’s voice as odium which showed to me that he had taken the memory of the first conversation because he had revealed his identity and use the second conversation to keep up the farce that he was still Rayze.

[@ProphecyEU]

This seems the most likely to me, as i read it and didn't listen to the audiobook format, yet I had the exact same perception. Faking that he's still Rayze, causing a misdirection for Wit, because such a change in character from Odium+Rayze vs Odium+Teravangian would throw Wit off from what he "might plan to do".

[@covya]

Hoid was storing memories in breath AND copperminds at the same time, problem solved :P

[@LostinDiscovery]

I love that theory!

[@covya]

It kinda violates what we know about storing memories with copperminds, though? Storing it in a coppermind removed the memory from your head. It's why I'm so curious about how storing it in breath works, it doesn't seem like hoid is losing access to the memories he is storing that way? It's really fascinating to see familiar effects being produced using different magic systems, and trying to figure out the different limitations. Perhaps when storing memories in breath, you are more creating duplicates in the breath, rather than putting the originals there? But I can't make it work with what we see vasher do with the little girls memories in warbreaker, so I just can't quite get it all to mesh together yet. Need another stormlight book!

[@nemisesdragon]

@@covya It would work though, he needs them out of his mind, that's the whole point of storing them, if he had all his memories, he'd go insane. Using copperminds would be ideal, he'd have them at hand if he needed them, and could remove them again once done with them. We know you can create indexes of stored memories within the coppermind itself, and so Hoid would just view the index when he needed to know what memory to take back in a given moment. For all we know, the memories odium tampered with could have been junk that Hoid left there precisely as a trap so he'd know if Odium, like Ruin, could manipulate memory, instead of risking the Copperminds, he would risk his breath stored memories. The loss of perfect pitch would be an immediate indication something was up.

[@covya]

@@nemisesdragon You've made a few assumptions here that I don't agree with, but we'll go with them for arguments sake. The problem with assuming that hoid WAS storing all of the memories he was making directly into breath AND that that works the same as copperminds and removes the memories from his head is that he absolutely cannot be making a backup. The process of creating backup copperminds involves pulling a memory out of the coppermind, noting the information down, storing the memory again, then reading what you have written to make the back up... So it's clear you can't store the memory in 2 places at once. I think, if your assumptions are true, that hoid absolutely lost the memories of that first conversation, and can't have a backup. Will he be able to figure out odium has taken memories? Probably, the loss of perfect pitch is a giveaway (unless odium is capable of altering memories stored in breath, rather than just deleting them, like we've seen with copperminds... That would be a whole different, terrifying ball game) Edit: I am 95% certain that hoid has "live" access to the memories stored in breaths, rather than having to pull them out as you would with copperminds. The fact that he's storing memories in breath as the conversations are happening makes it pretty clear that he's not just forgetting everything that is being said.

[@smokeyalpaca1910]

@@covya Hoid never gained the ability become a Feruchemist though. He swallowed the nugget that allowed him to become an allomancer, but feruchemy was an inherent magic system rather than a created one. Unless he's got a spike somewhere in him this doesn't make sense

[@RavensRants]

I think it would be typical of Hoid to be able to pull a fast one on Odium, but I also don't think it would make narrative sense. Brandon worked hard to make Taravodium seem like this higher stakes, deeper threat. To have Hoid outsmart him right off the bat when he makes his first appearance after claiming the power of the Shard would severely undermine how threatening he is supposed to be. That being said, I do think that Hoid may discover this has happened and might use it against Odium when he does. Why? Because in Warbreaker Breaths can only be freely given with the command "My Life To Yours, My Breath Become Yours", and cannot be taken against the Awakener's will. So Taravangian takes the Breaths against Hoid's will (because Shards are probably strong enough to just do that), which means that Hoid still commands the Breaths and still controls them. This may mean he has some level of control over the investiture within Taravodium. I think the final encounter between champions will have a really tense moment where Hoid steps in and gives our heroes an advantage once he realises this. So in conclusion, did Hoid deliberately let his breaths get taken? Probably not. Will he be able to use this against Taravodium at some point? I certainly think so! Actually this whole thing has given me some food for thought. Might make a video on this XD Awesome video as usual Mate! Can't wait for the live stream!

[@philvogelfilms]

That's a super interesting theory!

[@gavinosullivan2268]

The breaths that TOdium took are not enough to have any serious affect on odium’s investiture or vessel

[@RavensRants]

@@gavinosullivan2268 Maybe not, but I'm thinking it'll be enough of an influence to buy our hero precious seconds to pull off a win. Just a theory though

[@sirioaklander5591]

@@RavensRants fwiw, I think the foreshadowing is that Dalinar will lose, but that Taravangian may be able to avoid being the Odium that Rayse was (as indicated is possible in the letters throughout). TOdium may still be the villian in the long run, but a more complex one in an expanded game, or we may find a bigger game in the second half of the series in which TOdium isn't the real antagonist at all, but merely an important player.

[@titaniumtomato7247]

I didn’t interpret that as taking the breathes, I saw it as manipulating the memories.

[@vincentbusselot594]

I think one thing we're ignoring is the focus on "Misdirection". In stage magic, misdirection is forcing the viewer to look in one place, while the real trick is happening somewhere else. So where are we being forced to look? Either the conversation with Todium, or the coins (A classic misdirect in stage magic), or the loss of breath or the scene in general. What are we missing? people have pointed out the coin could be a metalmind, but what about the corrupted spren? We KNOW that Sja-Anat isn't necessarily on Odium's side... So what if Hoid WAS duped by Odium - but his "AUDIENCE" of corrupted spren were somehow asked to remember the scene for him and report back? What if WE'VE been misdirected to look at the spren as an audience, like us, and not PART OF THE TRICK.

[@LostinDiscovery]

That's a very cool theory! Perhaps those spren played a bigger role than we all imagined. Thanks for this comment!

[@vincentbusselot594]

@@LostinDiscovery Thanks for the great video! It literally hit me as I was watching

[@rickardroom8601]

How do you people come up with this stuff! What an awesome theory 😁

[@Kulstan]

Great theory!

[@EricMesa]

This is the BEST theory I've hear. Everyone on r/Cosmere seems so convinced that Hoid is too badass to be tricked, but I think it makes a lot more sense (and is more rewarding) if he was tricked. But you give us a way for him to be tricked AND Hoid to still not be fully on the back foot

[@vishanthfishy]

I think Narratively speaking it makes more sense for the penultimate book to end off alarmingly in order to make the threat that much bigger for book 5. How else is Sanderson gonna achieve this other than making the most omnipresent and powerful being in the cosmere vulnerable. There was always a safety in knowing Hoid is always one step ahead of the shards but now that's all gone. The threat in Odium is real and thats gonna make book 5 very interesting

[@matthewTaylor1990]

Yeh, that was my thinking on first reading. With SA book 5 being the end of the first half of SA the stakes need to be ratcheted up to 11. That being said I'm sure there was more to the meeting than the surface level I have taken from it so far.

[@joeharris5860]

I believe Odium is going to win and the next set of books will be the fall out of his victory. I think we will see Dalinar as his champion throughout thr cosmere

[@carlsmith4568]

It's also pointed out in this book that Hoid seems to have a misunderstanding of Shards altogether. Hoid always refers to Shards by their vessel's names. He seems to think that the vessel is more important within the pairing. Harmony writes to Hoid that he should be much more afraid of the vessel itself, and considering Harmony is actually a Shard, I believe him. I think Hoid understood that Rayse was weak minded and vulnerable, but the power of Odium is far more threatening now that Taravangian is in charge.

[@macurvello]

That was my exact feeling as well.

[@vishanthfishy]

@@joeharris5860 nice theory. I also believe book 5 they will lose. The desolations and the everstorm are a cycle and I believe the next 5 books will be about new characters destroying the cycle. I also believe a lot of the characters introduced in the first phase will become the new heralds so they will be present in the next era of stormlight

[@Moonbane]

"His first face to face meeting with Odium in over a thousand years had gone exactly as planned" He specified Odium Not Rayse.

[@LostinDiscovery]

Yesss, love this detail!

[@Argusdubbs]

That is a great catch!

[@thefife4847]

Yes Hoid almost ALWAYS calls the shards by their real names

[@rebotero89]

The line is "Imagined" though. So I think if there is a difference between it and "planned" is that if it happened as planned then Odium was successfully tricked. Otherwise "imagined" can be more vague. Maybe?

[@jacoburban2757]

Really interesting point maybe Hoid has a plan that is indifferent to who holds Odium he did help write the contract I wouldn’t be surprised if the „loophole“ T-Odium thinks he found might have been a deliberate trap set by Hoid.

[@outsiders2171]

Fun idea, but I doubt it. Brandon said he removed Rayse because he'd lost twice (failing to get Dalinar and failing to get/break Kaladin). He said Rayse was a beaten antagonist and was no longer a compelling force to work against. It wouldn't make sense for him to turn right around and have his new Odium immediately lose his first confrontation. Second, Brandon has always said he likes writing character arcs around their shortcomings and not their strengths. He dislikes writing OP characters, preferring to give them tough challenges to meet. Hoid doesn't do much with his power, but he's got to be the most OP non-Vessel in the cosmere. He also promised Jasnah he'd take a more active role once the contract was written. Pretty sure this was Brandon's way of making sure Wit didn't overshadow every other protagonist while giving him a unique struggle. ***Spoiler warning*** As far as the Breaths go, did he lose them? He said something was messing with his perfect pitch, not that it was gone. It might be that Odium altered his memories instead of destroying them. In Mistborn, Ruin changed memories within metal minds. Odium might have done the same, and his power temporarily impaired the perfect pitch. Hoid might be on to the fact that something happened, but he won't know exactly what and would be unable to trust what he thinks he knows. That would be a great way for Odium to neutralize him.

[@LostinDiscovery]

Fantastic points you've made here!

[@samriddhibhaumik2032]

I think we have seen something like this in Warbrealer so spoiler.... Remember Vasher once rescuing the little girl altered with her memories and Vivena also said she had her aura flickered but breath wasn't taken as the girl never gave them I think that is what Tarodium did to Hoid

[@LightningGentleman]

I... so, initially, I shared your take on "he altered his memories"; but that seems like it would be so very close-to, or directly violating the part of the pact dictating that he can't "harm" Wit. Semantics are obviously involved in what is defined as "harming" someone, but I think most would argue that altering a person's memories against their will is a type of harm. Or maybe the interpretation of "harm" refers purely to physical/bodily harm. Who knows. Good takes, though.

[@chaosxenkon]

@@LightningGentleman pretty sure odium said something to the account of "i cant do anything to you, but even the contracts of my old self dont stop me from effecting these breaths you hold"

[@davids182]

Well the new Odium didn't lose his first confrontation as far as the narrative goes. He won the confrontation and even Wit was fooled. That's how the story is written. Sure, maybe sometime during the book Wit will enact his trump card reveal that he in fact planned for this all along. But as far as the "official" score stands now it's: Taravodium- 1 Wit- 0 And in any case, even if you were to say Wit got the better if this exchange, this wouldn't be a loss. This would be a point scored at best. Merely a flesh wound.

[@bruceh9780]

Vasher used breath to manipulate memory in Warbreaker (the kidnapped girl), in that case it was removing a traumatic one.

[@zelrael4728]

The coins might be unsealed copperminds to restore his memory

[@Bzhydack]

Hoid is Feruchemist too (Ferring for sure) so maybe metalminds don't need to be unsealed.

[@hanzerik594]

@@Bzhydack How do we learn that he's a feruchemist? I'd think that at best he has one of those: This gives you feruchemistic powers thingies from the southern scadrians.

[@Bzhydack]

@@hanzerik594 He uses Fortune to know where he need to be and he did this also earlier. Only Feruchemy can grant this.

[@pedropablocameron2681]

Hoid gets the unsealed metalminds with the form of coins only after Bands of Mourning when he encounters Wax and that book takes place between books 5 and 6 of the archive so I do not think this theory makes sense as Hoid hasn't shown before any Ferruchimical hability.

[@Bzhydack]

@@pedropablocameron2681 is WoB about this.

[@Blate1]

I think the significance of that last line, “it went exactly as planned” was to contrast against what hoid took away the first time around. The first time around, as he was walking away, he was growing suspicious and thinking that it did not go as planned. Odium then realized that he had messed up and accidentally given away that he was terravangian now. So he went after hoid, stopped him, and messed with his memories. Odium then re-does his conversation with hoid, but this time is careful not to give away who he really is. This slight change in his responses is what accounts for hoid’s slight change in the way he progresses through the conversation. So the line at the end is meant to show that, in contrast to the first time hoid walked away, he is now completely fooled and doesn’t suspect that odium is actually terravangian now. And I don’t think odium only took his memories of that first conversation away, he also took something that is going to be important later on - that is going to hurt hoid and his team for not remembering it. This is why hoid was so terrified when he realized what odium was about to do. He knew he was deeply screwed in that moment and there was nothing he could do about it. And i don’t think it’s weird that hoid didn’t immediately notice something was wrong as he walked away the second time. It’s hard to notice the absence of a memory unless you are specifically thinking about the events around that memory and notice the hole where it should be. And the whistling at the end was just to confirm to the reader that something was awry, and added as a little Easter egg to people who had read war breaker to give them a nice little “oh shit, I know what this means...” moment. The whistling also foreshadows that, later, once hoid has time to think about it more and piece together the clues, being the smart guy that he is, he is probably going to figure out what happened, but by then it will likely be too late. P.S. I also think that Odium didn’t take ALL of Hoid’s stored memories because then Hoid definitely would have immediately known something was wrong. And since Hoid is a cautious man, he probably keeps most of his important memories in his actual brain to keep them safe, so it probably wouldn’t have been too much more advantageous for Odium to take every last stored memory anyway.

[@timilehinolagoke6359]

Wait, if Odium did take all of Hoid's memories, he shouldn't remember there was a particular manner in which the conversation was supposed to go. Yet he remembers and even thinks he bested Odium... I'm in over my head here.😑

[@Fettigetz]

I can get behind this theory. It makes sense even if only because The Stormlight Archives are supposed to span 10 books. While the ten days up to and including the battle itself could possibly cover 2 or even 3 books, this new entry adds at least 2 books of happenings. Just my opinion.

[@EricMesa]

@@timilehinolagoke6359 insert Princess Bride scene with The Man in Black and Vizzini

[@CarlosBronze]

what is the whistling in warbreaker?

[@rymdalkis]

@@Fettigetz I'm fairly convinced that book 5 will cover these final ten days up to and including the battle. Whatever happens during the battle will conclude the first half of Stormlight Archive, and set up the events of the second half

[@navybrandt]

But would Hoid store his short-term memory in breaths? It seems unlikely that he'd forget something that happened 5 minutes ago.

[@rickardroom8601]

Maybe it was not only the breaths Teradiom took, we can't know for sure.

[@dig8634]

I think that is the inevitable conclusion. Odium outright states he can't see Hoid's internal thoughts, so assuming Hoid wasn't pretending, he had to have been storing the conversation in his breaths while it was happening to forget it like he did.

[@morganlandt8469]

Not to be nit picky, but he picked up Design in Kholinar. Yes it was after the Battle of Thaylen Field, but he found the Spren near where Elhokar died since he was the one saying the oath to bring Design into the Physical Realm.

[@michaelslater9637]

After watching this and rereading the epilogue I think there are 2 options, and it’s wise that Sanderson leaves himself these options moving forward. Option 1: was successful by re-creating the meeting to go how it would have gone if Rayse still controlled odium, and Hoid left unaware of Odiums new host, and the new potential peril. Like other commenters said, this would remove some of Hoid’s OP status. Option 2: This really comes down to the coins in the beginning. Hoid talks about how slight of hand with misdirection is the best type of trick as it leaves the audience looking one way. If we assume Odium is the audience, regardless of being Rayse or Taravingian, could the misdirection be the breaths filled with memory? Those coins he was flipping (which don’t exist on Roshar) are likely copperminds, and hold his actual memories, or the memories Hoid wants to have after confronting Odium. In this scenario, Hoid was potentially able to gain information, as well as potentially provide false information to Odium.

[@MasterBunnyFu]

I think it's probably a combination of the two. I don't think there is any way Hoid could have known ahead of time that Odium was no longer held by Rayse, given the lengths he went to to hide from Odium for so long. However, that also means that (and he said as much) Hoid specifically went looking for that encounter, and thus would have been well prepared for it. He also would have a *very* good idea of what Shards are capable of and what Odium in particular could pull off given the particulars of the oaths that bound it / them. But, he quite likely would underestimate how well those loopholes would be exploited since he expected Rayse to be the vessel rather than Taravingian. So, I think that, upon realizing that Rayse was dead and no longer Odium's Vessel, his fear was very real and realized that his tricks might not be nearly as effective as he had counted on; but, there's also a good chance that they wouldn't be completely ineffective, either. Afterward, I do think that the memory wipe was effective, at least in the short term, leaving Hoid at a significant disadvantage even if his preparations were partially effective, since he won't even be aware that, or to what extent, his plans may be compromised. Then again, the way he emphasized that things "went *exactly* as he'd imagined" is a bit sus, particularly given his visible bits of confusion during the replay.

[@davidraveh5966]

What does OP stand for? Thanks.

[@michaelslater9637]

@@davidraveh5966 OP: Over Powered.

[@cydneyquinn9936]

Haha especially because he mentioned "cents" which are made of copper. Coincidence? I think not...

[@chrisa7733]

@@michaelslater9637 you stumbled on a new use for OP. OmniPotent!

[@ZlothZloth]

It was a trick all right. Sanderson stuck his advertisement for the Warbreaker series without me even noticing it - until I came here. But then it's delivered by somebody else who doesn't really stand to gain from the advertisement, making it more compelling! TRICKSY Sandersonses!! (It'll likely work, too. ;)

[@TheFlameOfHeaven]

I think he had the right amount of breath to notice when some messed with his memories, as a threshold. He is geniune terrified because he knows Odium is messing with his perception, yet THAT is happening in his own terms.

[@joshuamounce3318]

My thoughts exactly. The whistling gives Hoid the clue he needs to know Odium messed with his memory, and he's smart enough to price together why.

[@CanzonE_]

When I first read the epilogue, I too noted that the fact that Hoid lost prefect pitch was weird, given that not much breath is needed to get it, and he should have had tons of it. That made me think that this meeting didn't occur twice, but dozens if not hundreds of times, each time tOdium took more breath to remove the memory of the last iteration of the meeting. Meaning that while each wipe took a small part, they were in this loop for hours by the end. This may be less likely as I'm sure tOdium would now that Hoid will figure out quickly that he messed with his memories because of all of the lost breath.

[@scottstarbuck9254]

If not that the change in time would be far more noticeable after a few too many repetitions.

[@tristanhall487]

I saw a theory that said that if Hoid did indeed dupe Odium, then the perfect pitch loss is explained. Hoid could've had precisely the number of breaths to achieve perfect pitch (or very close to it) with the intention that should todium take away even a small fraction of his breaths, this would take him over the perfect pitch mark and alert Hoid that todium had stolen the breaths and therefore that something was amiss (even if he got his memory wiped)

[@snakeusa7885]

His spren wazzername would prolly remark on him acting weird though

[@dig8634]

@@snakeusa7885 Not if she always thinks he is acting weird. It could take her months to realize he had changed significantly or at least to point it out if she is a silent observer

[@snakeusa7885]

@@dig8634 Endlessly repeating himself? Whazzername seems like a smart aleck who would mock him endlessly for that.

[@chrissims5363]

i recently caught covid, and lost my sense of smell. i cant tell that i cant smell anything unless i actively try to smell something. Wit doesnt know hes lost his memories/perfect pitch until he tries to reach for those memories. Taravangian got one over on him. it makes him actually scary.

[@dig8634]

The thing is that Hoid whistles all the time. He has been shown to actively think about perfect pitch a LOT, though it is often either as a meta explanation to the reader or to a character he is talking to. The fact that he should have perfect pitch should be a pretty immediate alarm with how often he uses and thinks about it. And he DID try to whistle right then and there, so if you notice it when actively trying, then he should have noticed it. Definitely possible he didn't notice, but I think he would.

[@WubTheory]

@@dig8634 Yeah it seems like he's constantly checking to see if his memory breaths have been messed with.

[@maetrixxx]

I believe we're now starting to get a look into the real machinations behind what's going on in the Cosmere. Now, we know Hoid's been all throughout the universe, however, I didn't think Breath could be used to hold memories. That always seemed to be a quality of Feruchemy (re: Sazed and his Metal Minds). Could Hoid have merged the abilities of different types of investiture? Furthermore; in the chapter headers for Part 2, you have a letter to Hoid (the "Wanderer") from Sazed (Identified in Ch 29) warning of the specific danger posed by the Odium shard (Ch 30) - so theoretically, Hoid could've been pre-warned; thus allowing him to create something of a "Warrant Canary" - a mechanism revealing foreign interference by it's absence (loss of Perfect Pitch) But yeah, the opening line is definitely Sanderson talking to audience, the only question left, though, is which cup had the Iocane powder?

[@althechicken9597]

If you've read warbreaker you've seen something similar happen with vasher and that little girl who was kidnapped. I won't say more for spoilers, but he also mentions memory erasing to Denth.

[@maetrixxx]

@@althechicken9597 oh, good point! Just finished listening to the audio book and completely forgot about that nuance...

[@covya]

There's some differences there, right? In warbreaker, the girl wasn't storing her memories in the breath? Yet vasher was able to take that memory. and, IIRC, her biochromatic aura dimmed slightly? It seems contradictory to assume that all memories are stored in breath if you have it, because then surely the process of awakening & giving your breath away would impact your memory? So either the girl was specifically storing her memories in investiture, or that is mechanically different from what happened here with Hoid. I must admit, when sanderson said we'd seen something similar to what happened with hoid on another world, my head immediately went to ruin editing the memories stored in copperminds, but obviously that's using an entirely different magic system to what was happening here. So I don't think either breath alone nor editing of memories as seen with copperminds fit perfectly. I am definitely excited to learn more about this.

[@johnhogue9402]

@@covya it doesn’t make out clear, but when Vasher the Stampede talks to Denth at the end, he tells him that he knows the command to make him forget. It’s very likely that the command is to store the memory in the breath.

[@covya]

You mean for denth to store it in the breath, then give up that breath? Yea, I guess that makes sense. Does that fit with what we see earlier? I only recall vasher speaking with the little girl, I don't recall her saying anything until after the memory is removed, but I can't say for certain, and it's been a while since I last read warbreaker.

[@nathanhall8898]

Love this theory. Don’t worry about being “too nerdy” cause we all past that point long ago if we are this deep in Brandon’s cosmere ;) haha! Seriously, some awesome thoughts that rival those over on the 17th shard. Looking forward to more insights.

[@LostinDiscovery]

Hahah that's it man, we're in too deep now. Thank you so much!

[@eier81]

Wit losing memories maybe gives him an advantage, I can't help but think of the licanius trilogy, where one of the characters purposely had his memories taken so he could accomplish something that would have been impossible with his memories. I can't help but think maybe there's an advantage for Wit to not to have certain memories or something, maybe it makes him immune to something, or able to interfere more than before. Exciting stuff!

[@abcarlson3293]

I really enjoyed that trilogy! Lol

[@potassiumhypobromite5008]

I mean, Dalinar losing memories did allow him to become somebody greater.

[@eier81]

@@potassiumhypobromite5008 you know... You're onto something here, we can stay in the same book series and get confirmation that losing memories can be a good thing. 🤔🤔 Very nice! Not sure why I didn't think of this lol.

[@oscerthefool]

Under rated series, wish it had a bigger fandom, the time travel and prophetic parts were handled soooo well

[@moo4700]

yeah maybe losing some memories removes the limitations having a dawnshard gave him

[@ginganinja9935]

I read warbreaker after finishing rhythm of war, so i didn't notice the perfect pitch stuff... that's fascinating!

[@Struggler12349]

You should have read this one before words of radiance

[@davidma22]

I'm conflicted. The narrative specifically has Todium say "I can't see your mind". Which means Hoid's thoughts of terror and confusion and surprise would not be an act because there'd be no point.

[@Queensage77]

War breaker is such a good book, I'm glad a randomly read it waiting for Rhythm of War

[@chrispugel2541]

My guess is that Witt didn't actually lose his memories and only loss enough breath to lose his perfect pitch to tip him off that something was wrong. The coins he was playing with where actually a medal mine that he was tapping to store the memory. Odium thought he stole the memory but in actually it was simply stored in a metal mind.

[@samreddig8819]

When did wit get feruchemy? Breaths are universal, he took some lerasaium in secret history, and he bonded a spren in oathbtinger. But feruchemy is genetic.

[@dbrock1553]

My thoughts too, as well as the flute probably stored breaths as well, which is why he gave it to Kaladin for safe keeping and Kaladin gets it back just before the meeting.

[@k-majik]

This was my question as well a little bit after I finished that epilogue. I could definitely see it go either way and I think Brandon is trying to encourage us readers to question it, although my suspicion is that Hoid really did underestimate Odium there, at least somewhat.

[@stevenwolanski4432]

I'll bet he intentionally showed his hand about breath knowing Todium wouldn't know as much about other off world magic systems baiting him into stealing it while he was using the coins from Scadrial as copper minds.

[@adoniscreed4031]

He was caught COMPLETELY off guard, if he used a coppermind it was a quick response, not a part of his plan...

[@ziabrown9051]

I think the "misdirection" may be focusing on Breaths (warbreaker), and the loss of them, instead of the coin (Mistborn). I have always thought that Hoid has figured out a way to utilize Feruchemy and has back ups on back ups of history/memories stored. I hope so anyways, this chapter makes me feel ill knowing i'll have to wait for book 5.

[@JohnBoen]

Excellent analysis. I hadn't tied the whistle to breath magic, but thst was the clue I needed to know Wit had laid his trap. He just intentionally handed over a set of memories to Todion (love that!), and can tell because his breath store is gone. That's awesome.

[@dylanmaniatakes]

I have a small correction for you in this otherwise great video. We see vasher take the bad memories away from the priests child in warbreaker implying that the memories were attached to the breath. Most likely vasher told her how to store those memories in breath and then how to give just that breath away

[@LostinDiscovery]

Thanks for that!

[@WhaleMilk]

This epilogue has been one of the most meta, self referential things I have read since House of Leaves. It forces you into a loop of questioning both sides ad infinitum if you take into account the things that Wit talks about at the opening of the chapter, about stories and misdirection. Somewhere, slight of hand is being done on somebody else, and it’s very hard to tell on who. It is so incredible

[@shannonvermeulen9111]

With Wit I was so confused after reading the epilogue (but not in a bad way). There were so many theories that came straight away.I seriously thought that the meeting went completely wrong. I didn’t think that hoid would have known but it does make sense. Hoid is very self aware. Great video! And can’t wait for the stream tonight!

[@dlili5274]

nice profile pic

[@shannonvermeulen9111]

@@dlili5274 likewise

[@theonethatexists4441]

I think the most compelling argument for Hoid being tricked is one of characterisation. If Hoid is going to be an interesting character he can’t be this omniscient detached trickster, he would need to make mistakes.

[@Want300]

The Ghostbloods proved he has flaws when they were able to slip in a sleepless cremling disguised as a pen in order to spy on him.

[@tommythetomcat]

You know at first I was dumbfounded when I read this... Then as it was sinking in and skimming through it again... It clicked Toadium fancies himself the smartest man in the room but Wit.. He was there at the shattering he may not have God like ability but he helped trick and destroy adonalsium. This was all misdirection for not only the reader but Toadium. We'll see in 3 years how right I am lol

[@_MARSyt]

I doubt Wit helped trick Adolasium. He probably tried to protect Adolasium but failed.

[@caitlins9526]

🤯🤯🤯🤯 yes. I love the CSI-esque deep dive. Brandon is just that sneaky. After finishing it the first time I just sat there like... huh? what just happened? Wit is too smart for this. great video!

[@LostinDiscovery]

Me too! Thanks very much :)

[@studynot757]

Wit isn’t necessarily smarter than a Shard enhanced Taravangian though... I’m seriously terrified by this epilogue

[@Joy-iv8ko]

I’m hoping Wit stored a bunch of other breaths somewhere else (like how Vasher stored his breaths in clothing in Warbreaker to sort of mask his appearance)..

[@mananagon]

In a doll at the end of words of radiance I believe.

[@rorschachkovacs8322]

The flute

[@marklindsey1995]

Hoid says his FIRST meeting after a thousand years went exactly as planned. The repeats were the subsequent meetings. Hoid knew he was in a loop.

[@philvogelfilms]

Either way it goes, I love the delicious ambiguity. (Pattern would be happy) Another great video! Congrats on 5K!

[@LostinDiscovery]

Haha he so would! Thanks mate!

[@carlsmith4568]

5k subscribers, congrats. This channel will continue to grow more and more as the Cosmere expands and you make more videos. Very high quality and enjoyable to watch.

[@LostinDiscovery]

Thanks very much mate!

[@joshuabarger8422]

So much foreshadowing in this chapter. The only thing that scares me is the fact that he did lose perfect pitch... We have to assume that Wit has been storing breaths for a loooong time, especially if he's been storing his memories in them. So seeing as Perfect pitch comes from one of the earliest heightenings, it would seem like Todium took nearly all of Wit's memories. The biggest question for me is... Did Wot want him to have his memories, or not?

[@Pulmonox]

Maybe Wit gave his breaths to Design for safekeeping?

[@joshuabarger8422]

@@Pulmonox now that is an interesting idea... I wonder if that's possible!

[@miguelcarretero9285]

I do not thini Wit had a lot of braths with him, the more you have, the more you make your surroundings "bright", if he had the tenth elevation he would have looked like a god in the eyes of everyone. Perhaps he has that amount, but stored in his clothes, wich do not act the same way as a body when Infused. Perhaps Wit was Just un the First elevation 🤔

[@mychalwest4033]

Finally! Someone caught on to the perfect pitch clue. This was my immediate response, but after watching reactions everyone else's response was that Todium got one over on Hoid.

[@IsMiseAine]

I think that Wit himself TOLD us that the encounter with Toadium (my auto correct just tried to correct that to God 🤣🤣🤣) was in fact complete misdirection!! That for me is the most compelling piece of evidence out of everything!!

[@thearcanehunter2736]

is that with the last line? I thought that was proof Toadium fooled Wit, because Toadium was playing along to keep him from his secret.

[@lathahariharan356]

I was really devastated after reading the epilogue and since I was reading in my kindle I thought it was some kind of mistake you know repeating the same but god it shook me so hard. Also liked your perspective of it.

[@julianlapenna1838]

Why have I only been recommended this channel now?!? This is great content

[@P1kes81793]

Have to say along side my other comment, randomly found your channel and I'm loving all the content. I'm a HUGE Cosmere fan and love how deep it all goes. Keep up the good shit my man!

[@LostinDiscovery]

Thank you so much mate! The Cosmere is the most interesting world I’ve found myself in in a long time!

[@samuelhomberg9075]

I love the camera pans over the pages!!

[@ss5gogetunks]

Terravangian and Raboniel are two of the absolute best villains I've ever read!

[@joshuaraminha8339]

Yoooo 5000 subscribers congrats!!!

[@LostinDiscovery]

Thank you!

[@ATAKeithStewart]

Fantastic theory, good job can't believe I didn't see this!

[@LostinDiscovery]

Thanks!

[@Ari-xr2ye]

Now that I’ve finished the book I can finally come back and watch the spoiler videos! :)

[@LostinDiscovery]

Make yourself at home! :)

[@secondengineer9814]

The fact that Vargodium can take breaths at all *which must be given willingly* is quite scary.

[@crazy4cairns]

Always enjoy your videos. So glad I read Warbreaker because all of this is so much clearer now!

[@LostinDiscovery]

Thank you! That's great to hear :)

[@berentook]

I am sure there is more to it but what that more is i am unsure, such an awesome ending.

[@JonathanMonicaRomig]

Brilliant! Fun to think about this idea. Would never have thought of that myself.

[@JRWeaver13]

Worth noting that we did see memory modification in Well of Ascension as well - Metalmind stored memories could be compromised by Ruin

[@chadum96]

Is it known if Hoid is a feruchemist? If he is, what if he had stored all of his memories also in the coin that he is flipping?

[@carlsmith4568]

Yes he is. He's also an allomancer, Yolen and Rosharan Lightweaver, Sand master, and probably others. I'm guessing he had metalminds somewhere, possibly the coin.

[@santiagocedeno2749]

@@carlsmith4568 i don´t think he is a feruchemist, he could still have some unkeyed metalminds thought

[@santiagocedeno2749]

@Nomi Naranjo how would he even be a feruchemist, by hemalurgy?

[@johnaucamp7106]

I don't think he expected Taravangian to become Odium, but he must have prepared for the possibility that someone might.

[@WubTheory]

Wow the art you use for this is awesome.

[@anthonyslateextra7684]

Oh there is a lot more to it. He even noticed the coins had been messed with. I believe it was a test to see if odium would play the same trick or something new and that would tell a being that ancient what was really going on. It was Fail safe for him has to be.

[@QuietTurbulence]

Great analysis as always! You raised lots of points that I didn’t see. I’m going to read Warbreaker after I finish the 2nd book of the First Law series (:

[@LostinDiscovery]

Thanks! You’re going to love it!

[@jeremy812]

only half way through and I have to say. This i very engaging. You are very talented. subscribed.

[@dude4444411]

Heh happy about 5000 now you're at 15k. Congrats

[@v1a1n1n1a1e]

I just finished RoW 30 minutes ago and that final scene has had me on edge because I was so concerned that something bad was happening to Wit! It's interesting that Wit started again explaining misdirection, yet the wind spren and Design didn't appear in the reset. Wit had already left Odium the second time, so why tell us he lost his perfect pitch? It wasn't a way of fooling Odium.... it really seems to mean something more. IDK, help! Until I was almost finished with this book I thought this was the final book in the Stormlight Archive, so I'm glad there will be more. I really appreciate hearing your ideas and reading the other ideas shared here. Sorry I don't have anything to add to the conversation, but you've given me a lot to think about. Such as how long will we have to wait for book 6? :-)

[@gregpallen]

1) It's Todium. 2) Hoid got duped. He needed to get duped though. He's been the smartest person in the room for far too long.

[@LostinDiscovery]

It could be that simple! I wouldn’t be mad.

[@andykell3931]

Totally agree! Taravangian is assumed dead by all the mortals so no one knows Raize is dead and Taravangian is holding the shard of Odium. It would be pretty crappy storytelling for that big secret to immediately be found out by someone who would definitely tell the alliance. It's much more likely that Todium is protecting his secret and messing with Hoid. I do think there's something we're missing in the misdirection, but I'm excited to find out in book 5.

[@gregpallen]

@@andykell3931 for sure. Hoid probably has a contingency for this that will lead to him eventually figuring it out but got to make him work for it

[@lavendermarigold1646]

And thinking about it, doesn't Hoid say something about "Tricks leave the audience trying to figure out what happened. They know they've been duped, but can't figure out how." This is exactly the feeling I get from Hoid after he sees he's having trouble with his perfect pitch. "What just happened. Something's wrong, but how did it go wrong?"

[@imbored5951]

Taking an umbrella for when it rains and having a piano fall on you from out of the sky does not make you any less intelligent.

[@noutsakh.2135]

I just came across this video through my KZbin recommendations and I really wasn't expecting seeing my art XD Thanks for the feature and crediting my account as well! ^^ This made my day.

[@LostinDiscovery]

Oh wow! It's amazing to hear from you!! I'm such a huge fan of your artworks, please continue to bring this amazing series to life. Thank you for the support :)

[@dig8634]

Don't know if there were more in the video, but 3:49 is at least one. Beautiful art btw! Always appreciate fan art of series I enjoy

[@noutsakh.2135]

@@dig8634 thanks so much! ^^

[@Rev0UK1]

i think the fact that he went in to it talking about slight of hand...was the biggest give away / nod to the audience

[@CobaltContrast]

I googled for this an I didn't find anything. Then this pops up in my feed. About time. New to your channel. Like it so far.

[@LostinDiscovery]

Glad you were able to find it! Thank you :)

[@Williamtolduso]

I like to think of it as Toadium. Imagine the power of this shard in the body of princess Peach's most loyal servant

[@ZlothZloth]

Oh no, does he now know the Toad Style of the Kwan Lun School!?

[@Valiguss]

I think hoid knows something is up but not what is up. I bet he will figure it out and reveal it probably at the contest and call odium out for not being rayse.

[@spencerurban1092]

Mistborn Era 2 (Wax & Wayne) takes place after Stormlight Era 1 - and Hoid is in Wax & Wayne, doing Hoid things, so I ~assume / assumed he recovers in some way, shape, or form. Assuming this wasn’t just a trick played by Hoid to begin with.

[@jamesdefrange]

Thanks for this! SLA are my first Brandon Sanderson books so I was a little lost. This vid was a perfect explanation! Starting mistborn next I think…

[@sheyslibrary]

Now you have me questioning everything I thought I knew about the epilogue!

[@LostinDiscovery]

Then I have succeeded! 😄

[@ZlothZloth]

There's always another secret...

[@Draugo]

But wasn't the line "it went exactly as he imagined" which is really different from planned?

[@flyinhigh7681]

Never thought about it from this angle before, stormlight was my first sanderson series, now having watched this video, and being more informed about the other magic systems in his world (ive read warbreaker and mistborn: the final empire) your arguments are giving me pause. I used to solidly believe odium got one over on wit, now im gonna give that section a re-read and re-evaluate

[@cyanic3148]

to me it seems like Hoid still does have access to his Perfect Pitch, because he can tell something is wrong with his whistling Perfect Pitch doesn't automatically allow you to sing/whistle to the perfect tune, it just gives you the ability to hear the perfect tune, true, it could just be that having been used to having perfect pitch, and remembering how it feels like, that he now can't find the right pitch is weird to him

[@whatever918]

Great breakdown of the epilogue, thank you! I'm still on the fence about TaravangOdium. Will he use his powers for the good of roshar?

[@chandlerhudson2897]

I want to start off by saying that this video and point of view is amazing! I love all of the thoughts and ideas and time put into this. I don’t want to contradict anything from this video because, obviously, no one besides Brandon knows how Stormlight 5 is going to turn out. But here’s my prediction about what may be happening in this epilogue, and one of my predictions for the last book. To start off, I want to jump back to an interlude earlier in Rhythm of War featuring Sja-Anat. In a brief segment she mentions the process that Odium goes through in order to ‘Unmake’ an individual. My memory of it is kinda rough, but from what I understand, Odium takes the individual and puts them through almost a time-loop. I don’t recall if any he gives any further details about this, and of course, I’m no expert in it anyway, but upon reading the scene with Wit and Taravangian-Odium, I instantly thought “He’s Unmaking Wit!”. If you feel differently, or perhaps I’m wrong about the Unmaking process, let me know! Now, the rest of this is speculation and totally up for debate, but if I were Taravangian/Odium, and I were in need of a champion, one who could take on Dalinar and the Stormfather, who would I choose? Why not one of the most powerful individuals in the Cosmere, one that happens to be unbound to any planet in particular? Wit himself admitted that he usually keeps away from the direct affairs of the Cosmere so he, in a way, can’t get pinned down. Well, he has all but fully invested himself into the Rosharan system by bonding a spren and writing the very contract by which Odium is to be bound to the Rosharan System. In helping the Radiants, Wit has put himself in a position to also be manipulated. As of writing this, I haven’t read any of Brandon’s Secret Projects, and any one of those may destroy my entire foundation of this prediction, but those were just my thoughts. I just think it would be cool to see a showdown between Wit and Dalinar! I have many predictions about Stormlight 5, and I can’t wait to read it when it comes out!

[@daniel-pz1ox]

Super fun video! Most definitely the most important Hoid Epilogue

[@Danocaster214]

I love your ideas. I agree there is definitely more to this scene than we've seen. I don't know how storing memories in breaths works, but maybe he stored his memories of how breaths work in the breaths Todium took, so he's unable to piece it together. Truly scary stuff. But I agree that Wit would have contingencies upon contingencies. At the least he has a copper mind with his memories somewhere. We know he's been on Scadrial recently, and they've figured out (mistborn era 2 spoilers!!) how to store identity, so even if Wit isn't a feruchemist, he could have one created for him. Breaths seem like a really unstable and poor choice for storing memories, because of their inherently volatile nature. Wit would have something more solid. Good stuff! Subbed.

[@sphenopalatineganglioneuralgia]

Very interesting and astute thoughts. I could see that being right. Hard to say, but interesting thoughts!

[@kittymachine3798]

I had wondered who fooled whom also... But I was unaware of the significance of the Breaths. So that definitely adds weight to Wit still being on top of it. Cool discussion!

[@jeremy812]

Upon finishing the book I had the same feeling as you about Wit's preparing and going through with how T-Odium would act. I felt that Wit had designed an interaction that Odium would leave feeling like he won.. I think you are right. Thanks for the video.

[@stormchaser9738]

8:14 You talk about Wit skipping ahead here, But you’ll notice the “…” doesn’t actual result in him skipping anything. He says all the same stuff. Instead, the “…” comes in the second conversation right after Wit jokes that Rayse is acting more intelligent than usual and he’ll have to “reevaluate” I think that A. Wit remembers the first conversation somehow, and B.) wants to get past the “I’ll have to reevaluate (your intelligence) line ASAP because he doesn’t want Taravangian figuring out that he’s onto him not being Rayse. Some people in the comments are saying that they don’t think that Taravangian could lose here since Brandon is trying to hype him up as the new Big Bad, but I don’t think that necessarily follows. 99% of readers will come away thinking Wit lost and Taravangian won, (which serves the writing purpose of building up Taravodium as super scary), but enough hints are given so that when Wit eventually reveals that he beat Taravodium in that encounter it won’t feel contrived.

[@avaladd3680]

“The Epilogue of Rhythm of War: What Really Happened” by the channel Lost in Discovery explains this scene soooo well

[@Bruskotheelf]

Hoid gave Wax a coin during the bands of morning that was actually a copper metal mind medallion thingy.

[@maba5082]

So he could be giving him the coin he used during the epilogue!

[@loraz5343]

Thanks for a glimmer of hope!

[@Andrea-cq6eg]

I don't remember when i started reading, i just know I haven't stopped. I might have read the entire stormlight archive in three weeks.

[@Priscellie]

I wonder to what extent Renarin was in contact with Wit in this book. He was instrumental in Sja-Anat's plan to take down Rayse, delivering her corrupted windspren to Taravangian, and corrupted windspren made up Wit's audience in the epilogue. What did his "I'm sorry" message mean? How much of the aftermath did he foresee, and could he have sent Wit a warning? I like the idea of the two of them remaining on good terms after Wit's kindness to Renarin in WoK. I have to believe that's why we got so little of him in RoW--he knew too many things that needed to remain secret to the audience.

[@markgiles6057]

Is it possible that the coin was some sort of metal mind? Can’t remember if something like memories could be stored in that though.

[@shyzunk]

memories definitely could be stored in metal. or knowledge, at least. Yeah, the significance of the dropped coin still tingles my mind...

[@Stoneward_Thug]

I may not know what the game is, but I know Wit has something up his sleeve. Love your videos dude. I just finished SA and am just devouring knowledge of the series. Again thanks.

[@jmand8861]

I just finished the book once again and the more I think about it, I think both happened. First he pretty much right out tells us his plan with odium with the speech on misdirection, slight of hand and making “them” believe. I think he always planned for the breaths to be taken, but by raise, not by taravangian.

[@brodyot94]

I fell in love with Mistborn tgen discovered the rest of the cosmere and your channel during treatment. I finish treatment Wednesday :) Im looking to start a channel where i interview people about a topic they're a fan of. I would love to interview you about Stormlight. Keep up the great content.

[@sepenti]

This was brilliant and well put! I really think you may be onto something here and I wonder if his contingency plan is the coin. What if it is one of the medallions from Mistborn era 2 that has backup memories?

[@kylieparry3514]

I completely agree. I thought this from the first time I read it. Annnd was so confused that no one was talking about it.

[@reaganorton1710]

I’ve always read it that instead of taking the breath and the memories he just shakes it or messes with it, but it is pretty Brandon to hide stuff

[@vincentvalenzuela5718]

Dang, and here I was just thinking that Hoid just thought the meeting went exactly as planned because he was sort of gaslit

[@wildfireswildfires6792]

I never thought of it before I saw the title of this video (which I couldn't watch right away) and I had a very different reasonning. First, note that I didn't "read" the books, I listenned to them so there might be a few things that are visually obvious that I am unaware of. Here goes. The beginning of each chapters has quotations from different things, including what seem to be letters between various god-like entities and an "old friend". I have assumed that a few involve Wit and Cultivation (among others), plotting something to stop or hinder Odium. I am thinking in particular of one where we learn that Rayse is very dangerous because he is very clever and is driven by the Shard hatred. Then we also know that Terravangian went to the Nightwatcher to get the means to defeat Odium and that as a result he is sometimes clever and sometimes emotionnal but never both at the same time. Looks like Terravagian was set up to take Rayse place in the hope it would make Odium easier to fool. I am not familiar with Breath (is that from Warbreaker ? I need to reread it) but I am prety sure Wit is a lot more than a Lightweaver. However, despite having access to some of Rayse thoughts and plans, I don't think Terravangian knows as much about Wit as Rayse did and so he is probably unaware of some of the things he can do. That is where it would make sense to me to send his spren away. Let Odium believe he is alone when in fact other entities bound to Wit could be present. We know it is possible to hide from Odium as Lift did it and we know Wit has an Aeon companion. So, maybe someone else witnessed the vision whose memory wasn't wiped ? That's maybe stretching it a little, I don't know. What do you think ? Anyway, I agree with your overall analysis : there's always another secret and I would be very disappointed if this scene was to be taken at face value, so to speak...