Love, Thunder & Keeping Us Interested | Castle Super Beast Clips

[@ratking1608]

The God-Butcher arc is one of the best Thor arcs from the comics. They couldn't have wasted it any harder

[@jorgamund07]

Just like they wasted the Planet Hulk arc in Ragnarok.

[@gorimbaud]

i haven't even read the god-butcher arc, but love & thunder so transparently did nothing with a story that should have bigger consequences (and did in the comics) that how much i disliked the movie is probably what will get me to finally read jason aaron's thor run

[@li-limandragon9287]

@Rat King Still people are so hypocritical about Jason Aaron praising that run while spitting venom at him as a writer.

[@YouCalledForTheDoc]

@@li-limandragon9287 Have you read his Avengers run or post-Thor events?

[@li-limandragon9287]

@@YouCalledForTheDoc Yeah they’re alright, no better or worse than most other modern Marvel comics. She-Hulk being a dumb talking orgress I didn’t love but I wasn’t nearly as butt hurt over it as other people were. Black Widow getting her own Iron Man suit was great, liked the fights with Celestials. Howard Stark coming back as Mephisto’s servant and Agent Coulson being evil weren’t necessary. Tony bonding with the baby was cute, Iron Man not being written as a better looking Doctor Doom is always appreciated. I think comic fans are too reactionary, Aaron pulls one She-Thor and everyone gets on the hate wagon.

[@davidstinger1134]

Post-Endgame MCU feels like playing an open world game after completing the story. Sure, you might have some secondary quests, and some party members are still around, but you just can't help but lose interest knowing the meat of it is already over.

[@lordkrauser]

Post-Endgame makes me think of Boruto honestly.

[@chrisdaughen5257]

That was me after the first Avengers movie. It was the perfect culmination of the phase one films. Afterwards, I couldn’t get excited about the second phase to even see Age of Ultron.

[@li-limandragon9287]

@David Stinger It’s like Dragon Ball, I’d much rather see Goku and Piccolo drive cars than have another goddamn martial arts tournament.

[@luan.galaxy]

It's like my Dad's second marriage. After the culmination of my 13th birthday I get kind of desinterested in his annoying son and bitch new wife.

[@deslacooda]

@@li-limandragon9287 Lol Goku and Piccolo running over Boruto on their way to go see Age of Ultron.

[@BobbyHopp]

After watching this movie I had alot of problems with it but I couldnt pinpoint the exact biggest problem. I later saw a deleted scene where instead of an overlong, over extravagant over cgi scenario of thor going to meet zeus instead it was a very simple and emotional moment between them and zeus teaching him to use the lightning bolt, almost reminiscent of a dad teaching a kid to ride a bike. And at that moment I realized the movie prized what was an expensive over elaborate waste of time that added nothing to the movie over a simpler more emotionally grounding scene. Even the tone of the scene was more in line with what the movie attempted as well.

[@li-limandragon9287]

Absolutely

[@koifish835]

Yeah its like the movie was afraid to slow down for a moment and let us connect with anything going on. Ragnarok did a better job balancing dramatic scenes with the comedic stuff whereas Love and Thunder felt entirely too self indulgent like it was all one big joke. I'm not sure if they simply learned the wrong lesson from Ragnarok's success or if they let Taika Waititi do whatever he wanted and he decided to take nothing seriously. Maybe it was both.

[@blueblazer9991]

The tone of Love and Thunder is so broken and confused and all over the place that at the scene where Jane tells Thor she has cancer, my audience laughed

[@li-limandragon9287]

Yeah L&T’s tone is absolute mess. I didn’t hate it, but it needed to take it easy on the gags.

[@Nabs-xd2qr]

Thats hilarious. No one in my audience laughed at the sad scenes.

[@tvader5040]

Reading Gorr from the comics, this movie really dropped the ball

[@Agent789_0]

That seems to be a running theme with the MCU recently.

[@HectorLopez0217]

They somehow dropped the ball on MODOK

[@ExeErdna]

Gorr was a menace, here barely a nuance

[@plinfan6541]

Having never watched Love and Thunder, everything I heard about it was "Movie is mid at best, Christian Bale seems to be doing a much better movie on Parallel and we don't cut to it enought"

[@HectorLopez0217]

@@plinfan6541 yeah Bale only did cause he kid asked only mcu he saw was infinity war or as he put it “the one with chin bloke searching for stones.”

[@bleack8701]

To be fair to Spidey 2, it wasn't world ending. It was going to destroy a part of the city if it failed.

[@jjj7790]

Also Spider-man 1 didn't exactly have world-ending stakes (The threat was Norman being a huge asshole to Spider-man specifically). The Raimi Spider-man films kept the conflicts on a fairly personal level for a superhero movie. Every main villain had to do with some conflict in Spider-man's civilian life.

[@rikowolfin4984]

@@jjj7790 It was the same for Spidey-3 where again the stakes were just Spider-man getting rocked by Venom if he lost and MJ dying most likely. It wouldn't have even ended the city either, it was basically a build up to a parking lot fist fight in terms of high stakes.

[@Onefromthedarkness]

Just another case of Whoolie going off of extremely wrong memory and interpretation.

[@agt_pendergast8899]

It's also kind of hard to take the stakes seriously when you know there's 10 more movies in preproduction.

[@RockGun90]

It was so weird how Infinity War tried to pretend Spider Man was dead when we already knew the next movie was in development.

[@RedStar_N7]

@@RockGun90 You don't even need to know what's coming next to feel disconnected from all that. The idea that we can just bring in dead characters at any moment through multiverse bs already destroys 90% of meaningful tension in the MCU. It took them 11 years to build all that up and now multiversal travel is as easy as putting a ring on a random kid and telling him to believe

[@TheShockVox]

13:42 eh that’s kind of silly though. The story in Spider-Man 2 is still a personal small story, it’s just that the consequence at the end of Otto trying the experience again COULD result in that level of destruction (That’s how things are in Spider-Man). But that’s a last minute development, not an ongoing threat. The real threat to Peter is MJ being killed.

[@kaijuultimax9407]

The Sam Raimi Spider-Man movies are about Peter Parker's struggle to balance being a superhero and being a functional member of society.

[@NeoBoneGirl]

"The CEOs should stop sticking to the formula" might be the most naive Woolie take I've ever seen. These guys LIVE for The Formula

[@blueblazer9991]

Can there ever be a bad piece of media where we just go "oh the writer really did a bad job there", why can it never be that?

[@Drago5899]

@@blueblazer9991 Because, unfortunately it is not always the writer. You have to remember that multi-million dollar projects like movies are run by the investors nowadays. Look up the original script for Dawn of Justice. It was nowhere near what the final movie turned out to be. That being said, in case of the Marvel films, it is also the writer's fault. Many of them are not good enough to even write fan-fiction, let alone a big-budget film.

[@pocketlint60]

They were born of the formula...made men by the formula...undone by the formula... *Fear the stale formula.*

[@NeoBoneGirl]

@@blueblazer9991 Do you think all the writers on Marvel movies are just coincidentally writing the exact same movies beat for beat?

[@just_matt214]

​@@blueblazer9991 Yeah, when the writer actually has any agency and doesn't get their material tampered with by overbearing producers. I was in a production exactly like that, although on a significantly smaller scale, and i can *guarantee* you that none of the bad dialogue we see in this sorta movie is what you'll find in the original draft, the one the writer(s) have on their hard drives at home.

[@Roronoa2zoro]

I could say "I want a Marvel thing that's not sky beams, CG monster fights and doesn't quip at me with the formulaic predictability of a metronome", but to save space I could instead say "I want to go back to Daredevil and Jessica Jones' first seasons again"

[@BlueMarsalis]

Jessica Jones' first Season kicks so much ass, this is why I prefer the X-Men films, the scale.

[@li-limandragon9287]

@@BlueMarsalis Still grounded scale is one thing, multiple character assassination is another altogether. There was ways to make Rogue, Storm and Cyclops work without pissing thousands of fans off.

[@adamfreddo5703]

Legion (the Fox xmen series) was something else. Loved a lot of the things they did with comic elements.

[@mrruniccross1226]

I loved that show. Great cast too. Everyone is fantastic but Aubrey Plaza is having the time of her fucking life.

[@adamfreddo5703]

@@mrruniccross1226 the Shadow King is up there with Vincent Dinafrio"s Kingpin for me. One of the best antagonists.

[@Cheeseboiga]

I gotta rewatch that show, it was the best.

[@BlueMarsalis]

It irritates me how few people know about it.

[@adamfreddo5703]

Also, can I just add how Wandavision wishes their final battle was as epic as the battle between David and Shadow King to "Behind Blue Eyes" in season 2 (Legion).

[@kronos1794]

Read the Thor God Butcher comic and Love and Thunder sucks. Not knowing what something should have been is a gift at times. Not sure what you're talking aboutnwith Spiderman 2, the threat was the mini-sun would destroy New York not really the planet and after the Subway scene the feeling of it being personal to Peter still works.

[@ExeErdna]

If you came in clean you most likely liked L&T if you've been keeping up with Thor in the comics... L&T is annoying to watch what they threw away

[@kronos1794]

@@ExeErdna The only thing I've liked from Thor comics recently is the hr Beta Ray Bill comic. The rest has been...lack luster.

[@falsehero2001]

It’s not fatigue. There’s an unquestionable drop in quality in phase 4.

[@li-limandragon9287]

To be fair there was a global pandemic

[@speedy2davey]

​@li-limandragon9287 that wouldn't and shouldn't effect writing quality.

[@iKendles]

I'm imagining Woolies reaction to Modok is the same as his reaction to Ed (live action cowboy bebop)

[@li-limandragon9287]

Nah Modok is exactly on point, it’s like the people complaining about She-Hulk being too silly. Literally just glance at the comics guys, she’s always been ridiculous.

[@JJMomoida]

@@li-limandragon9287 yeah to be honest it feels like it would be hard to do giant baby man head and NOT make it look fucking ridiculous.

[@li-limandragon9287]

@@JJMomoida *It’s supposed to be ridiculous* that’s what many fans of Marvel and DC forget.

[@FrozenOver0]

@@li-limandragon9287 Honestly, I think it doesn't quite look ridiculous ENOUGH (though, admittedly, I've only seen stills, maybe it looks weirder in motion). It looks like they just gave Some Guy a helmet with stubby arms and legs glued onto it and green screened the rest of his body out.

[@li-limandragon9287]

@@FrozenOver0 See the movie not just stills it’s absolutely freaky and that’s the point.

[@admcleo]

Novelty is the MSG of writing. The problems in the MCU post endgame aren't JUST the punch-up effect on the scripts. Some of these movies start filming without a script and we know from effects houses that they routinely completely change the finales. There are multiple base writing problem that's taken hold in the MCU pipeline that just continues to degrade the product. Novelty simply masks these problems by standing out against what is effectively a homogeneous sludge of cost cutting and mass market appeal, but it's still bad and will frankly result in death of whatever is relying on it. Not many juggling acts these days despite having flaming chainsaws and being blindfolded, and I'll bet there are videos with more views about simple mochi pounders doing a simple thing excellently.

[@Extra.Medium]

The now defunct Netflix marvel verse was mostly great because they're barely marvel. That marvel vibe wasn't really a thing in Luke Cage or Jessica Jones. Punisher couldn't have been farther from this marvel meta. It's truly a shame that Netflix took all of those series down, they'd actually be a refreshing change of pace at this point.

[@tpeack]

it does feel that phases 4 and 5 are gonna be the wheel spin before it gets a fresh start/new direction with the x-men/ff (really dr doom), shang chi is a bit of a wild card as the movie was fine, but was 100% down to the mandarin/wenwu so going forward there's not really much to say it'll still be okay. black panther ends basically saying don't worry we'll get back to this in 15 years spider-man is in a weird spot due to how it's all divvyed up, hopefully we get a decent college era peter before they rush to miles, still nutty that sony isn't using donald glover for a cool prowler movie to set him up prior to that. guardians are likely done in their current form after 3, but nova and the annihilation wave are such an obvious place to go. hoping blade and the midnight sons/suns works out, really want a marvel version of justice league dark. strange and captain marvel are also in a weird spot as these characters feel like they're just gonna be co pilots of films from now on. the thing with love and thunder is that i'm an omnibus collection guy. the omni for the gorr through the jane as thor saga is like 1200 pages and the gorr story feeds into the other, instead all of that is smashed into 90 minutes, which is a shame as it means none of it really works, like the gorr stuff is thor questioning what it is to be a god, seeing himself in the past, present and the future getting a sense of who he is. then he stops feeling worthy, then a human picks up the hammer and he's displaced, which is act 2 where he's in this new state as not the god of thunder, then act 3 is the big olde war of the realms story where he returns to form. having a lot of those beats play out simultaneously is weird. like the movie imo is passable, but just weaker than it's source in almost every way which is a shame.

[@ReverseSkeleton]

WandaVision is also a pretty good dive into the pits of grief before it devolves into a punch up

[@li-limandragon9287]

I really didn’t mind the climax, WandaVision is the still easily the best of the MCU shows that aren’t Netflix. People defending Falcon and The Winter Soldier baffle me. It had like two cool ideas but was otherwise filler.

[@panoruryu]

God I would LOVE that Green Hornet movie. That sounds like such a fun time, I'd be down for it.

[@DKZK21]

I really liked Ragnarok, though it had a few moments in it where the excessive joking took all the emotion and/or tension out of the scene. Love and Thunder was essentially nothing but that over and over again. Easily Taika Watiti's worst movie imo, it feels like they wrote it as they shot it.

[@UCannotDefeatMyShmeat]

23:36 i can only questioningly squint at the battlefield thing, but oh well

[@Cloperella]

The only way I think I could go into a theater to see a superhero movie at this point is if it's a Superman movie that goes back to how he was portrayed in TAS, where he's a big nice dork who just wants to help people and isn't being portrayed as this big brooding Jesus symbol, who ends up destroying half of the city in the process of "saving" it.

[@havelock5619]

24:00 Taking chances wont fix the problem. The actually problem is that they keep releasing the same game in a worse and worse state and people keep buying it. Marvel movies, shooters and sports games are not stagnating, they are actively degrading each release and they need to fix this fundamental problem before they can start taking chances. But they wont, because they dont need to. People will buy or watch the new thing and call it "fine".

[@bioforce5]

The "punch up" dialogue kills this movie. It's never been worse in a Marvel film than it was in Love and Thunder. Every line spoken by every character at every point in the entire movie is some kind of joke or quip no matter how serious the situation is. Probably fifteen minutes into the movie I was already fatigued with how everyone was just speaking in jokes. None of them were especially good either. It just felt like their plan was to rapid fire as many jokes at the audience as possible and hope that one or two of them would make somebody laugh.

[@EncinoDude]

Nothing I love more than Pat getting on his soap box and complaining about stuff that he admits himself he hasn’t watched.

[@attackofthecopyrightbots]

weird as hell seeing them talk about this months later lol

[@UCannotDefeatMyShmeat]

22:20 for me the measure is *get control "hows the drifting/steering feel?" "oh, theres a mafia 3 drift button/my car slips all over for little mechanical reason. alright, fuck this."

[@nkopunch9279]

The problem I see happening with taking chances is that covid-19 and the economic crisis is forcing companies to be even less creative so this is like double the incentive for these companies to not do that. And I can totally see this leading to an explosion of the bubble

[@FrozenOver0]

It's perfectly fair to dislike the Marvel movies. Whether you think the genre has been over saturated, the quality of writing has dropped, or any other reason. I haven't watched one in years, and I just don't care about them any more. But, as someone who's had some of his favorite stories either get sequels, adaptations, or remakes that plucked out literally every aspect that I found enjoyable about the original, hearing "we need to get as far from the comic book source material as possible," just makes me groan. If you "want to see a superhero movie that's just two guys talking for an hour, then walking off camera, having an off screen fight, and walking back on to keep talking until the credits roll," you don't actually want to see a superhero movie. And that is perfectly fine! There are countless other movies you could watch, good movies, that aren't getting nearly as much attention, and could use the extra audience! There's no need to slam a "slice of life" peg into a "superhero" shaped hole until one or the other (or both) breaks, resulting in something that typically feels like a bait-and-switch that isn't enjoyable to either audience. If everyone that wants to see something different actually stopped watching Marvel movies, and tried out lesser-known stuff in the styles they actually waned to see, there would be less motivation to keep milking Marvel, and more awareness of other, more interesting fare! Near the end, they say that "nerds refusing to accept change is part of the reason western comics have come to be known only as 'capeshit,'" as a reason for why we should just butcher the superhero genre until it's become something else entirely, but it can't fall ONLY on "nerds refusing to change," when dozens of other genres had thrived in comics, before. The problem is people stopped caring about the other genres, and they started to die off, and any attempt to revive them is met with the self-fulfilling prophecy of "it'll never be as big as the superheroes" by both publishers, and the public that claims to want to see more variety. Stop trying to beat the most popular thing into the vague, imperfect shape of the thing you really want, and start looking for (and, when you find it, telling others about,) the thing you actually want! Speaking of: If either the struggles of the last remnants of humanity trying to find a new home in the universe while dealing with the limitations of slower-than-light travel, or how spiders might build and evolve a society if they were sapient, or, ideally, both, sound fun to you, Adrian Tchaikovsky's Children of Time is a good read.

[@TheShockVox]

10:07 sources say the opposite actually. Feige is WAY less involved these days. That’s part of the problem.

[@kapkant6197]

The idea of the military FPS genre being "solved" is frustrating because logically yes, while solved isn't a word I like for that they should each be consistent but they just aren't. CoD rotates between releasing their best game in a decade (Cold War) to their worst right after (Vanguard) or releasing good games that they just forget to update (Modern Warfare II). The less said about Battlefield the better...

[@cyberninjazero5659]

Of course the genre was solved Titanfall 2 came out

[@kapkant6197]

​@@cyberninjazero5659 *Halo 3: ODST

[@cyberninjazero5659]

@@kapkant6197 Halo isn't built around getting into a Mech so there was still room for improvement

[@MEMUEROOO]

Holy shit the sudden POYO caught me off guard xD

[@jericho7173]

Imagine going to Isreal and seeing the hitler themed ice cream shop.

[@plazmadood]

The thought of walking out was actually on my mind during the opening act of L&T because the quips were just RELENTLESS and not really landing. I love that the Marvel movies make me laugh, but I think part of that was because it was just being charming and not trying to pander.

[@VileMenthol]

we need a rated R "Kraven's Last Hunt" movie, but good luck selling kids figures of Kraven with gun-in-mouth action lol.

[@li-limandragon9287]

Kraven’s Last Hunt is so damn good, probably the best self contained Marvel villain comic ever.

[@waitselljones8068]

Notice when Pat said he hasn't seen the movies but he's basing his opinion off of the perceptions of others. He didn't make up a plot to the movie and then describe in great detail this made up plot and review it then say later the plot he made up wasn't real but just based off of the "vibe" of others. ....... Love ya Woolie

[@lawthirtyfour2953]

Spider-verse proved that I'm not tired of super hero movies, just bad ones, Can't wait for the sequel.

[@BusterKay916]

I feel like all you have to do to get Woolie to realize how much potential was wasted with the Gorr arc is mention "God of Bombs".

[@havelock5619]

16:10 No, what they need to do is actually hire good writers and directors, respect their legacy characters, write good and consistent characters, write simple and coherent stories and actually have a finished script before they start filming. Problem isnt them not taking chances, its them shoveling out garbage and people eating it up because its marvel. Have some higher standards people and dont go see these movies, let them know this is unacceptable.

[@havelock5619]

@Justahuman Sure, but i think the bad scripts and characters are worse than safe choices and unoriginality. Let me but it this way: the marvel movies were a beatiful house, but houses roof got damaged and rain water is leaking in. Now they can and should fix the roof before the house molds and rots away, but are instead adamant that its not leaking and everything is fine. And Woolie is next to them, deciding to ignore the leaking roof and goes "we should build a new floor to the house, really try something new" while the house is slowly overtaken with rot. Point being, they should stop ignoring the obvious problem and fix it before they try something new.

[@cottonmouthaudio5041]

It's also worth nothing that this film came out when the working conditions for CGI artists was being discussed. With that in mind you can really see the cracks in the machine starting to show, there are some shots that look like total ass.

[@SirJames7957]

Natalie Portman's fucking CG helmet is one of the worst things I've ever seen good god

[@li-limandragon9287]

Yeah Disney needs goddamn stop the slave labour of FX artists. Even if that means just realising animated Marvel works instead big high budget live action films all the time.

[@SirJames7957]

The fatigue was always going to set in when they decided they wanted to be putting out thirteen billion movies a pop. Superheroes in general tend to work better in more serialised formats like tv shows and comics, saving only the biggest beats for these grand moments. Trying to make every single thing a big blockbuster movie and releasing 3-4 of them a year is way too fucking much. And even putting them aside, the action scenes in these movies are just really poorly put together schlock. You could watch any cartoon or Tokusatsu and come away with battle scenes a hundred times more satisfying than what the MCU is regularly putting out.

[@benlunaris]

An easy fix for the "DO THE BIG BATTLE!!" would be throwing in some of more forgotten villains or random side characters that you can play with buffing up or having bits where some of the characters go "I fought Thanos, you're not worth wasting time on" if they were there or having them doing things that're so low tier that it's entertaining. Like, the average week of Spiderman when the Sinister Six and whatnot are locked up or even a movie about what any of Marvel Universe prisoner's lives are like surrounded by all this supervillain shit. Even going back to something like the Bully Mcquire bit where it's like "This guy was Spiderman an hour ago, look at how much of loser he is trying to be cool" such a good bit of contrast I also like the Mass Effect thing because they gave side characters you could completely ignore actual stories like Pressly where they gave him a full arc. Then you have Garrus who if you don't romance he's basically the best friend to compete with for who's the main character where you actually root for him to win.

[@li-limandragon9287]

I’m one of those Dragon Ball Z fans who enjoy seeing the characters relax and not fight, you need variety in the franchise for it to stay fresh.

[@wilnich592]

There's a character in the Marvel comics called Emery Schaub. AKA: Butterball. Butterball is a fat dude in his late teens/early twenties who just so happens to be completely impervious to all forms of harm. He is temporally locked into a static state that cannot be altered in any way. He cannot be hurt, or cut, or pierced, or burned or disintegrated, or any other form of bodily harm you can think of. This also means he has effectively limitless stamina. However, this also means his body can't change for the better, either. He can't lose weight or gain muscle, he can't learn new skills, and he can't feel any sort of tactile sensation. This effectively means that he can't be hurt by a supervillain, but he also can't really hurt the supervillain. Now put him in an enclosed space with Thanos. That's my film pitch thank you for listening.

[@TheShockVox]

Here’s what it comes down to: the brand is diluted. We got 17 or so projects in 2 years, while in 10 years we got +20 movies. That’s way too much in a short amount of time in comparison and quality is going to suffer. They’re going for quantity over quality, due needing to justify the Disney Plus app and the reality is they haven’t HAD the need to try too hard, Infinity War and Endgame were turbo successes. Disney plus isn’t making the money they hoped, in fact it’s losing money, so the figured more would draw MORE people in. 10:08 we’re overestimating how involved Kevin is with this anymore. I think Marvel is about shake things up (Agatha’s show basically being cancelled is a good sign. Here’s hoping Echo is next). They need to be more selective and realize they can’t just make EVERYTHING. the brand is diluted more than cheap bar beer.

[@doemoo4779]

I wouldn't say burnout so much as just tired of writing filled with poor quality, contrivance, forced humor and plotholes. I'm also tired of characters acting out of character or regressing as a whole with no reason/arc to justify it Why should I continue watching when it feels like the writers don't care or the characters on screen in their own universe don't care.

[@1wayroad935]

>poor quality, contrivance, forced humor and plotholes So the movies have finally caught up to the comics?

[@In-The-Zone]

Wow, I was just listening to them praise Dark World a couple days ago listening to SBFC 11 or 12 at work. And now here we are again.

[@JoseRS1186]

They liked Dark World? Eeesh

[@In-The-Zone]

@@JoseRS1186 They mainly praised how the movie had a lot of humor and goofiness compared to the trailers and how Tom Hiddleston stole the show.

[@Damar158]

@@JoseRS1186 I liked Dark World that had some great scenes, and I felt Ragnarok and L&T went way too far in making fun of Thor to the point the destruction of his home was treated as a joke.

[@Renoistic]

I'm in the progress of trudging through Red Dead 2 and I hope Rockstar finally starts adding fun and varied gameplay in GTA6. RDR2 has A+++ open world and D- gameplay and it gets old about an hour in. I'm at chapter 5 and the gameplay hasn't really changed or gotten more involved since the prologue.

[@CosmicRejectsVideo]

(Pat and, Woolie bring up ACTUAL criticism so, this isn't about them. They had actual takes. This is just about MCU, takes in general.) I feel it's hard for the MCU to change or gain new footing because for, 10 straight years, it was loved and, rated uncritically and, now it's hated uncritically just for being popular once. Like, when the noise is that extreme it hard to find a middle ground to land on.

[@li-limandragon9287]

I think it’s just about adding more variety at this point. Even just making more animated stuff like DC have been doing.

[@luan.galaxy]

They made the She-Hulk ending so we'd long for the formula.

[@majdjinn5042]

..God Butcher isnt a justifiable villain, he required a god who doesn't care about people to care about people for his trap to work.

[@rainingcomplete3018]

The functionality of his trap doesn’t factor into morality though unless it contradicts the morality.

[@majdjinn5042]

@@rainingcomplete3018 His entire reason for killing gods is because they don't care. He kidnaps kids in hopes that a god would care. This is just stupid writing.

[@alexanderson4497]

I watched the Avengers movie with a friend when it came out, and nothing since and you know what? I don't feel like I've missed out on a damn thing.

[@davidstinger1134]

They are okay popcorn blockbusters, fun if you have some time to kill, but a lot of people have overblow them massively.

[@gorimbaud]

you genuinely haven't

[@SliderGamer55]

To me the problem with Thor 4 was just that the humor was fucking obnoxious. And I like enough of the Marvel humor, especially...before phase 4. I wasn't diehard into Raganrok like some people were, but this was like that but just more jokes that were worse and more annoying. That's it, that's like 75% of the problems with the movie. It could've come out immediately after Raganrok, and I still would've been annoyed at it.

[@haski002]

Based on interviews it seems Love & Thunder was being constantly rewritten by Taika (while still keeping to the plot outline) as they filmed, and there was at least one rejected script. Taika Waititi is generally a pretty good, and his original stuff usually lands well. At the time it was released Ragnarok was a breath of fresh air in the increasingly stale MCU stuff as well. To me that smells like studio meddling & lack of a singular clear vision. It had good stuff, that could have been great if explored more (I enjoyed Bale's Gorr, but wow he was underutilized). Just, the emotional beats never hit as they should have.

[@li-limandragon9287]

I think they should kept it about Gorr and saved Jane dying for another movie.

[@Renoistic]

The first Thor movie is still the best since it has actual pathos, actual arcs, and doesn't undercut its own story at every point. I enjoyed 50% of Love and Thunder, but couldn't get though a re-watch haha

[@gamekid537]

Whenever people air their grievances about marvel and the general boring dregs of Comic book Things always seems to come back to how they just wished characters would talk to one another even somewhat meaningfully for extended periods of time. I think its pretty well known that like Marvel movies have much of their cgi scenes all done before the filming or even scripts are halfway done so all the writing is essentially filler for the next Cgi Fight that can barely be intertwined with whatever the hell the character or movie is doing or thinking about. All that to say i think the fatigue is just wanting characters to care or at least think about instead of celebrities dressing up as marvel guys and saying things until a fight happens

[@BlueMarsalis]

Hope the upcoming Deadpool/Logan roadtrip's just that, no big villain character.

[@Roronoa2zoro]

Another thought that occurs is that Marvel clearly haven't realized that the afterparty scene from Age of Ultron is still the best scene from any film they ever made. And even if they do they definitely don't realize *why* it's so good.

[@Tonicky]

My Marvel Fatigue hit around Thor: Ragnarok, Ant-Man and Wasp and Captain Marvel trudged through Endgame and Far From Home haven't watched an MCU thing since. Doom Patrol not having big climatic battles is probably why I still watch it.

[@li-limandragon9287]

Check out No Way Home, it’s one of my new all time favs.

[@lithantushelo7932]

To be fair, these aren't Superheros anymore, they're costumed action Heroes, rescue set pieces are never at the centre of these the colourful good guy energy blasting the colourful badguy is what it's about now

[@mrruniccross1226]

I feel like the DC properties are really poised to dominate Marvel. The Suicide Squad and Peacemaker are fantastic and starts to delve into some of the goofier and weirder parts of the canon while still leaving serious and sad moments serious and sad. The House of Pain scene in Peacemaker is genuinely heartbreaking and so is the conclusion of the storyline with his dad. If they keep it up they could have something really special

[@Onefromthedarkness]

They have a shot for sure. If Marvel just keeps going down this path and Gunn delivers the same quality he has in the past then it can totally happen.

[@miguelnewmexico8641]

but i thought "grr DC bad :( Marvel good :)"

[@1wayroad935]

Do they have anyone else other than James Gunn who can make good movies?

[@li-limandragon9287]

@@miguelnewmexico8641 I prefer Marvel to DC, but I don’t want Marvel to regurgitate the same thing over and over. It’s more frustrating that Marvel haven’t made animated adaptations of their best comics like DC have done.

[@Nerozero9]

They definitely should've had Thor and gorr have a Netflix Castlevania moment where Thor ask why and Gorr said they didn't save my daughter and Thor just to just say Well sh!t

[@eldragonball14]

I watched every single Marvel movie until Doctor Strange 2. And definitely I feel the fatigue. Since then I didn't watch any movie or series Black Panther Quantumania, Moon Knight, etc.

[@eltonwilsonthedeuce]

Solved genres is such a misnomer

[@alexmowrey4226]

My main problem since endgame (and even before) was there are zero stakes to anything. For Endgame, the world got totally fucked and half of humanity died and my first thought was: “alright when do they come back?” And sure enough they did. Even when these people died, the impact of that was glossed over. There was like a couple shots of characters being sad and that was it. Take Taika’s best stuff: Jojo Rabbit and our flag means death. Stuff matters to characters in those movies. In JJR, he fails constantly to get his dream and then his dream breaks and then after that his idols kill his mom. It hits so hard because these things mean so much to him. He’s a wreck after all of it. Even in a goofier thing like OFMD, the characters still go through things and stuff matters to them. There are stakes to their relationships even if not so much their life/death situations. Bottom line: everything in marvel is treated like a joke, so why should the audience care, if the characters don’t?

[@parker469a]

I actually feel like if Hugh Jackman was in a X-men movie when he was 90 he would be playing Professor X.

[@depp5275]

fatigue is right, last mcu i've watched is a couple of falcon n bucky episode but the most fun i've had recently is looking at new mcu movie trailers and thinking 'hey that's pretty good' only for the reviews scores to tank harder than ever

[@li-limandragon9287]

I really didn’t like the Falcon and Bucky stuff, compared to WandaVision it felt like a waste of time.

[@Vulgarth1]

Racing games trying out new shit? Well there's GRIP which is the spiritual successor to Rollcage from the PS1. Except nobody plays GRIP despite it being a pretty great combat racer where you can drice on the walls and ceiling and the track diverges into certain parallel routes or shortcuts. It has like, a standard city map, and the highway portion of it splits at one point if you ramp up onto the wall.

[@SinnerBeta]

Leave Green Hornet out of this, he deserves a good movie after all these years.

[@catharticgemini]

Love the wandavision mention because not only the formula returning, I had read the Tom King run of The Vision before finding out it was a new show coming out? So like I had hopes to get a new marvel thing that was weirder or out there but damn. Yeah.

[@LilAnonomus]

This feels like a pipe dream. Wishing for more unique and original superhero movies is like wishing for fighting games to be more popular. It comes down to what the general audience wants, which always averages out into safe and formulaic storytelling.

[@li-limandragon9287]

It’s sad we can’t hit a sweet spot tho, I rewatched the classic Singer X-Men films recently and appreciate the grounded tone, but absolutely hate what they did to characters like Rogue and Storm. People who complain about how MCU treats the characters don’t how good they’ve had it. I think X-Men are essential for the MCU at this point because their entire deal isn’t about saving the world it’s dealing with segregation and bigotry, something the MCU has only briefly flirted with before.

[@BlueMarsalis]

​@@li-limandragon9287 Yeah Rogue got underserved by The Last Stand going backwards on her character arc, but I loved her in The Rogue Cut, and frankly- we will never get Wolverine screaming covered in blood in a PG-13 film produced by Marvel. Sure they fucked stuff up plenty, but I will take the best of the X-Men crop, X2, First Class, DOFP, Logan and Legion over any Marvel Studios film.

[@li-limandragon9287]

@@BlueMarsalis No Rogue got ruined way before Last Stand (Last Stand is overhated it actually gives fucking Storm and others more to do) she got ruined back in X1 and continued getting ruined in X2. She can be weak at the start sure fine, but her not growing a spine by the third act of the first film or by the second film is such a fucking slap in the face to her character. She should be Wonder Woman not Bella Swann. The Rogue Cut isn’t any better since she’s still a damn damsel. Look you can prefer certain Fox films over MCU but pretending that they are superior overall is simply not true. The MCU cares about the characters, the Fox films didn’t 80% of the time.

[@Lonequacker]

Watching anything MCU related post Endgame is like finishing up side quests after the main story. It feels like they've written themselves in a corner and are too reliant on snark and don't know what to do now that people are tired of it. This just makes me more interested in the future DC lineup under James Gunn just deciding to go with weird shit.

[@TheJadedJames]

There is no reasonable escalation beyond "An alien collected all the McGuffins from our 10 year run of movies and bested all our heroes to kill half the universe. So they literally went back in time do undo with a climatic lord of the rings battle." You can't go bigger than that without it being ridiculous (like how the stakes of the multiverse stuff may ultimately feel meaningless) and if you go smaller people will eventually drift off feeling as if there is no point because nothing will ever match the feeling they got in Endgame again.

[@li-limandragon9287]

@Lonequack While the new DC lineup looks cool, it was real scummy to just dump all the DCEU actors like that. Honestly I want Marvel to go all in into animation like DC have done.

[@invaderpez12]

Its not necessarily fatigue but just the writing being weaker. Shang Chi and Spider-Man showed that they can still put out pretty decent films, heck Moon Knight and Wandavision were solid too albeit weak endings. They just need to get better writers

[@jeremiah5511]

Can we all agree that DC animated is better than marvels, and that Marvel's live action is (usually) better than DCs? Although I feel that may shift kind of soon...

[@li-limandragon9287]

Earth’s Mightiest Heroes is fucking amazing tho, if Marvel actually went all in on animation DC would be extra sweating.

[@sayu765]

Fatigue is not the problem (as others have posted). My opinion is that the movies just aren't as good. If Guardians Vol. 3 releases and that's received well and does well at BO, then I think that just says about the quality of the recent MCU film releases. If it's good and no one watches it, then yeah maybe the fatigue conversations can really start.

[@1000Tomatoes]

Makes me appreciate that even for all thier problems fighting games at least try to shake things up with new games.

[@eyeintheskysi]

Love & Thunder has a few good moments but so many fatal flaws. What was even the point of Thor being with the Guardians if it's handled in such a dumb way (you wanna talk about fatigue? the second those goats showed up I was preemptively exhausted), the entire first half of the movie is nonstop jokes that land flat so often, ruining Waititi's own work with the emotional bits of Ragnarok being treated as a joke --- I knew I was going to have a bad time after the shitty recap of Thor's life in the open, so I guess that's on me for continuing to watch it anyway. My main issue with Waititi's Thor is that he's too dumb, even in Ragnarok there's a bit of that, and in L&T he cranked it up till the knob broke off. I had to watch the movie in two sittings because the first half was so hard to get through. And this is all coming from someone who is not a comic fan so I can't imagine the frustration of the people who know anything about Gorr, yeesh.

[@priceyyeti4058]

Calling this movie Ragnarok 2 is an insult to Ragnarok.

[@gutnbjk]

THANK YOU

[@Bessux]

Ragnarok deserves to be insulted.

[@TheShockVox]

Ragnarok is a tad overrated, and if people hate Love and Thunder, it’s more like Ragnarok than people want to admit. Rather, Ragnarok is more like Love and Thunder than people think.

[@anabsolutefuq9284]

Ragnarok is already an insult to itself.

[@JoseRS1186]

Ragnarok worked because people hated the last two Thor movies. But now everyone loves Thor, so the same tactic of having heavy moments constantly deflated and not caring about plotholes or the characters in favor of fun didn't work for some.

[@Jhylla81]

Can't wait for the Batman movie featuring Crazy Quilt

[@michaelmaguire4147]

Thor4 did do something different with the ending than normal, and everyone hated it.

[@li-limandragon9287]

People are hypocritical, I’ve seen fans praising the X-Men films compared to the MCU. Conveniently forgetting the character assassination that took place left and right. It’s a credit to Hugh Jackman that people can ignore that.

[@causewaybob3651]

Tico needs to make Flash Gordon asceticallyitd right up his alley

[@attackofthecopyrightbots]

i remember when these two were saying age of ultron was good when it came out on the podcast lol

[@attackofthecopyrightbots]

but there are people that say its good now so idk

[@havelock5619]

I dunno man, compared to current marvel stuff Age of Ultron was a masterpiece

[@attackofthecopyrightbots]

@@havelock5619 You're not wrong but thats such a low bar anyway my obvious point was that back then they were saying all the marvel movies that were coming out were good even the ones people said were bad

[@UCannotDefeatMyShmeat]

Christian bale was in a marvel movie? really? huh.

[@majdjinn5042]

"fatigue" as in bad

[@kot4311]

At this point, I come for a movie directed by people I like, like Taika Watiti or James Gunn, and expect a Marvel tax to dampen the overall quality

[@adamcammack3534]

Such a Woolie move Nortoriously bad and formulaic Thor love and thunder " Its Alright " then to get in a tiffy over Spiderman 2 really Woolie the best movie of that character come on man

[@blakecrawford-3204]

Marvel skipped "The Snap" half of everyone including pilots and drivers just were gone and whatever "dude this a big thing."

[@GodKingReiss]

It tickles me how Pat’s gripes with the Rockstar formula cause him to skip in the list of major open world titles from Elden Ring straight to Breath of the Wild and The Witcher 3, desperately ignoring the 50,000,000 sold Red Dead Redemption 2 units in the room.

[@danhectic5629]

i haven't played a ton of RDR 2 but that game is so good dude... all the reviews complained about stuff but man it's just good.

[@vandad13]

I definitely got marvel fatigue after endgame lately I’ve been getting my marvel fix by reading some of the older comics there’s something refreshing about seeing these characters more humble beginnings before all these big mainstream Hollywood movies The fantastic four have been done pretty dirty in the movies i don’t think there’s really an adaptation outside of the comics that does them justice (I could be wrong) I definitely think Stan and jack got the FF pretty down pat from day 1 I’d also say that about Spider-Man

[@gwitch]

Common Woolie L sadly

[@NurseValentineSG]

17:27 "A single death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic." I have clocked out of superhero movies since deadpool 1 (it is IMO the best superhero movie and I doubt anything will change that) and the problem is that I am just so tired of everything. I did watch Logan alot later tho and it was also great. I don't need flashy superpowers. Or constant winks to the camera. Or an action scene every 2 minutes. Just give me down to earth people with actual problems. Problems that won't change the world. Problems that cannot be punched away. And at this point, it would honestly be more healthy to step away from the big cinematic universe stuff. I don't wanna find out who that weird frog was that entered the frame for 3 seconds by watching 15 other movies. Just make a single movie that is actually good.

[@BlueMarsalis]

Legion's great, give that a shot.

[@MostlyPonies1]

Comics amazingly haven't changed much in price since the 90s, although there are also less pages now and I dunno the last time I saw a special/jumbo issue of anything. But I stopped collecting comics because there were too many of them and they tied together too much. For a newcomer you should just be able to read a select few comic or storylines and you're pretty much caught up, but now everything either ties together or doesn't connect with anything else and is a stand-alone storyline.

[@kingofthemoon3063]

For those seeking good Arcade Racing games, try out Redout, Redout 2, or Grip Combat Racing. Very good games, worth trying out.

[@Renoistic]

Ms. Marvel tried not having a world-ending event in its final episode and Twitter/KZbin tore it to shreads. Werewolf by Night tried doing a slightly different one-off and it was completely ignored. It's pretty obvious the online discourse is just 'we have decided to hate for clocks and nothing will change our minds' similar to how influencers treated Avatar 2 for literally no reason except monetized negativity.

[@michaelmaguire4147]

Comic books are quippy, why are people suddenly mad that comic book movies are quippy; fuck Iron-man 1 was quippy. IDK, like don't go to the soup store and complain that all they have is soup.

[@psykomancer4420]

Source?

[@MattManDX1]

Why are you buying clothes at the soup store?!?

[@damonsghost9235]

In age of Ultron cap got gut shot. It was clearly bad and thor ask if he is ok. He says yeah and thor helps him up. Cap then walks it off. This is a big problem with these movies and has only gotten worse with time. Lack of consequence. This is why the boys and invincible come along and hit so big.

[@li-limandragon9287]

That was Avengers 1. But yeah Cap’s plot armour even compared to other Avengers is ridiculous. If Thanos had killed him in the Endgame fight that would’ve shocking but welcome.

[@cosmicspider2]

The superhero genre being referred to as "capeshit" has less to do with people getting tired of the formula and more to do with people either being tired of supers or not liking any of the recent movies.

[@Azmodeus87]

I'm in a weird, very frustrating place where i feel and agree with most of what they're saying, but the Thor movies everyone talks about as breaking from the MCU stuff frustrates me more. Yes, Ragnarok was a great production with a different feel. Doesn't change the fact that i wanted to see the straight played version off most of the those jokes.

[@hunterwynn3826]

I think it's a little silly sentiment to say that you want super hero comics book to get as far away from what it is. These movies are about comic book superheroes, these are action movies, asking for them to not be like that feels like asking for ice cream to not taste sweet. There's a bunch of other movies out there that does all kinds of different things, but action movies do follow the same three act structure. These MCU movies they're set out to be comic book super hero movies, if you really want something different that breaks away from what these core movies are suppose to be then it's best to watch other movies. I watch a different movie almost every week for the last ten years, so I don't have Marvel fatigue.

[@helloimtom100]

I just realized Marvel now had Pokemon stats, it does not matter if they are good or what some 40 your old man thinks anymore. There is always gonna be a new generation of kids to watch and buy all the merch.

[@lukeamparo6586]

In comics I’ve gotten tired with Spider-Man’s writing. How long will his life be shit? Marvel editorial: forever cause it makes us money! Me: I’m out. Marvel Editorial: but wait MJ and Peter might get back together! Me: I’m just gonna read manga, where stories actually make progress. And end. Marvel Editorial: you bigot!