LS | Why Pro-Play Lacks Innovation

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[@DreamhopMusic]

You should turn this style of video into a series, would love more content like this!

[@no1shazam856]

Me too

[@thisismyrealname3471]

Me tooo

[@kooge628]

@@thisismyrealname3471 Yep

[@germopotter3309]

EXACTLY. This is incredible.

[@ceesoussoren1056]

Wait this is so weird hahaha. Listen to your channel lots and now I see it on an LS video. Weird...

[@briankirz231]

Really wish some team would pick a coach that allowed pro-play to break out of this optimization rut and open up the game. I really feel like the pro scene could do with a little bit of freshness and experimentation while making money from bringing new fans in the process. Oh well

[@matthiashaenebalcke6512]

But that would clash with their winning systems...

[@joeltiger9304]

But then the coach gets fired for no reason

[@sharky9056]

yea u sure will win worlds with that mentality!!!

[@TheDinis553]

I think this is what helped G2 be so successful in their MSI winning golden year, they came out the gate with 4 way flex picks and things no one has done before. Shame that those days are bygone.

[@emplore]

Clown 9

[@zoomna194]

I like this kind of video hope you make more. Keep up the awesome work!

[@MrRafagigapr]

People should really play dota 2 for a bit to understand that nerfing it's not the way to go, the way to improve the game and make it enjoyable is to remove the cancerous anti fun abilities, keep the theme of the character, and make it injoyable to play against, the game is not supposed to be a few characters with insane power creep, but a experience where everyone should be pickable if only to just counter someone else, and that is a lot based on riot designing new champions with a role allready made for them and making it better than anything else or else no one picks it

[@niconico9358]

@@MrRafagigapr thing is, there aren’t 4-5 champs that are super omega uber broken. everything in this current game state is a good pick depending on comp and counter. pros just refuse to change, and refuse to let everything they learned go, from 1 champ during the 4 week stint they played them in scrims. pros don’t want change, but the game is honestly BEGGING for it.

[@andyriversa]

Agree! Train of thought videos are fascinating to watch from LS

[@ross2662]

The thing that REALLY confuses me is why don't the bottom tier teams embrace this mindset. Like, you very clearly cannot compete playing "standard/meta" league, why aren't you trying to pull advantages out of drafting for winning matchups and unique picks to throw teams off balances instead of just drafting renekton lee sin ryze handshaking Jinx/Aph + Naut/Leona

[@dawagyaltshen6870]

I think it’s because most of the players want to prove they can play in higher level or want to keep their job for the next split so they play the metas. But that’s just my view.

[@supermario9390]

Thats what CLG did last year with their press R comps using Vi and stuff. It worked for them for like a week or two, but then other teams adapted and then they just went back to doing nothing and losing because they never changed what they were doing. It legitimately can be successful. I feel like (no evidence tho) pros are the ones who dont want to do it though, because they want to look as good as possible and playing 10th time karthus on stage, even if its better than their 600th game lee, will have them make a lot of mistakes and look stupid sometimes because of inexperience. Low tier teams should do this more, but i think they are just too afraid to.

[@DelgaDude]

A lot of these questions even for top teams can be answered with "job security". It's the sad reality of current esports.

[@adrxixan]

It got me thinking that low tier team's players don't want to risk their jobs by trying out off meta picks. Probably they'll feel vulnerable of beign let go or maybe benched for striving away from the meta.

[@grande_macchina]

I saw that ERL teams are trying new stuff like Nasus against Zeri

[@Salvius.Praetor]

The bomb segment at the end reminded me of what Dom said on a Facecheck episode, about how proplayers will liken one champ to another and utilize the counters for the champ that as their starting point in beating the champion. However, often those 'answers' tend to be just a different meta champion, i.e. the claimed 'solution' to zeri being nautilus, when in reality they just couldn't figure out how to compositionally beat the champ so they draft the best point and click cc at the moment because it's easier and it's within their comfortable champ pool.

[@Gurpreet-sv5zg]

Tbh if you're drafting an identity comp to answer Zeri then you probably are asking for the other laners to take it up the ass.

[@3Dgaymer]

I would like this kind of video with examples of actual games pointing out what could/should have been picked because I usually learn a lot from that and I think it'd be much easier to understand because some of this concepts can sound really abstract without real gameplay or stats behind it

[@inconvenientfacts58]

Yes, because you have to prove why an item/champ is actually better rather than just criticise others for the sake of 'content'.

[@Nazuiko]

See if you can find any VODs of LS's co-streams and live views! He'll frequently discuss these subjects, 20-30+ minutes at a time

[@alexismedor6182]

@@inconvenientfacts58 ??? Have you not watched his videos watching the pro games? He literally talks about the comps every single game, points out bad decisions and items, along with picks

[@drb4074]

@@alexismedor6182 Do you think whining haters actually WATCH that stuff? They are too busy whining and hating to spare time to watch. Meanwhile, they literally miss the entire goshdarn point. It's not LS's job, or anybody else, to select the champs on a team (unless they are the coach). It's up to those teams/players to innovate and make a risky superbrain decision. There are over a hundred and fifty champs in LoL for them to build from. Yet they keep going back to the middling safety of certain picks. And that's on them.

[@raderuu]

i would love a long video about this, pro play is so boring these days and i hope any team management or riot itself sees the flaw of the "meta" of the season to the growth of the league. For me watching pro play this year is just me looking at the draft to see any different champs being pick, if i see the same champion that i have seen for the last 6 months i just dont bother wasting my time watching the game

[@heroneededsoon]

Same here, I've been watching since S2 before LCS existed and these last 2 years I've almost entirely stopped watching. It's incredibly boring to watch even with the players being so mechanically insane these days.

[@SubZyYT]

@@heroneededsoon thats because you watch LCS

[@bandito6782]

@@heroneededsoon LCS is boring because they players and the way they play suck. It wouldn't matter what they pick the games are gonna suck. I've still found high level pro play very entertaining recently regardless of 'stale meta'.

[@dolukiri]

@@SubZyYT every region is the same. They all just rotate their picks. Barely anything new. So many interesting counter picks and strategies in the game but they are not explored by the pros.

[@parttimeloverandafulltimef1096]

i mean we play on the same map for so many years no substantial change just buff nerf champs and add bullshi t items and that's it because they have the mentality...'why change something when people still play this game regardless what we do we' and at the end of the day we just complain but will still play.

[@metamage1685]

I have said this for years. This (and itemization) is exactly why I started supporting LS. Literally no one else cares that the "meta" is not meta at all. The idea that subpar champions, such as Renekton/Nidalee is picked over and over again, no matter how terribly they do, shows that this is true. But that is a copout. There are tons of champions and/or items like this but people always say, "Thats the meta though!!" I used to see this all the time in MtG. A friend of mine and I used to tell people that Jund needed 4 copies of Bonfire of the Damned to be viable. About 20 people argued up and down that this was wrong, we did not know what we were talking about, the pro players did all this testing and analysis and thus are automatically right because they are "experts." We had the same argument over Sphinx's Revelation. However, even though, Sphinx's Revelation was already proven that it needed to be at four and we were already right, the same group of people argued again because of "that's the list" mentality. Queue the weekend. Grand Prix Miami. I go to the tournament and Go X-2-1 and miss day 2 by a draw playing Esper. I should have pushed the game to go faster but I was tired and did not realize the person was slow-playing in time. A friend of mine that I went with brought Jund, a straight-list from another pro player. This same friend has played professionally. Sponsored, played on camera, etc. He qualifies for a 3 round bye. I do not as I worked too much to play enough to get one. By the 6th Round, he was X-3. Only his bye's were wins and he got crushed the next three games. Reid Duke won that Grand Prix, btw. Being the first professional player with a high ranked deck of Jund to have 4 Bonfire of the Damned in it. Immediately, everyone jumped on board saying "that's what I always thought!" until my other friend and I came into the room and they all stopped talking about it. The refusal to do something because someone else said it was wrong, even when someone proves they know what they are talking about a million times, shows a level of ignorance that is hard to overcome. The appeal to authority rather than actual analysis is what keeps these picks around and the mentality that it has to be right because someone did it. LS argued forever about Torment over the Forbidden Book but was ignored... even though you could check the effects in the stats, you could breakdown the teamfights with an analyst and find out which would have been more effective. You can do all of these things to find out the truth but instead, [Authority] said it was right so it has to be. If DK can lose a game with Renekton/Nidalee after the lead they got at the start and as good as they are, the duo is worthless. But we still have teams picking it. Over and over again. It happened with Tahm Kench and countless others as well. There was a champion that lost what... 13 games in a row this split? or something like that? and it still got picked. Very few coaches (or whoever makes them do these things if not themselves) deserve their jobs. And almost no analysts do.

[@lightworker2956]

Yeah, it's almost circular logic. Why are people picking Renek / Nid? Because it's the meta. Why are Renek / Nid meta? Because everyone is picking them. Effectively, people pick x because other people pick x and we're all just following the herd. While in Magic you can indeed win a pro tour / GP if you innovate, in LoL that's much less rewarded. If you're a pro and you innovate a really amazing item build, you'll maybe help your team win one game, and then everyone copies you and the advantage is gone. Hence players focus on mechanics / teamwork and not on theorycrafting item builds. Plus the guy with the good mechanics who follows the meta probably has job security, whereas the theorycrafting guy with the slightly worse mechanics leaves himself open to criticism, both on the "your mechanics aren't amazing" front and on the "yes you innovated x and y, but this time you're wrong, hence you suck" front.

[@metamage1685]

@@lightworker2956 Being innovative in League has been rewarded numerous times. The problem is that so few people actually do it that you do not see it. For example, Fervor Leona took down SKT because it counters the Ardent botlane. Sure, it was only one game but it was a great call and very far from "meta." Cheese is different as well but I am not talking about cheese tactics. Remember G2 back when they had Hjarnan? Even RNG could not come close to handling his Heimer. This was just him. No one else needed Heimer banned but he did. He had some ridiculous winstreak on the champion that year. The MF support, Hail of Blades TK, and countless others. LS's own experience with C9 is just more proof of it. The stale, boring meta is bad for the game. It lowers viewership and excitement. This is not fixed with random buffs and nerfs. It just creates a cycle. Instead, allow competition. Franchising was a terrible idea. Not having regulations was a terrible idea. Legitimate competition allows for tactical players to win. League was far more geared towards intelligent play than twitch-reflexes until the last few years. But they lowered the focus in favor of twitch-reflexes because of big flashy champions and plays. However, highly tactical players can still do well. When it comes to learning the strategy... You can learn strategy and even tactics, but it takes time. And people naturally good at innovating will stay ahead. A quote from a once great Vince McMahon, "We can innovate faster then they can imitate." And it is true for many innovators. This is why I really want dislike the "Meta's the Meta" mindset. It is wholly inaccurate. You will see the same tunnel vision picking utterly worthless champions no matter how many games they lose, no matter how little benefit they give, no matter if another champion does everything they do but better. All because some guy who has been wrong about everything says its the meta pick. Not a fan. The thing you describe about people saying that an innovator gets something wrong and is immediately attacked for is true. Results based analysis is everywhere. You see it extremely prominent in bandwagon fans that just jump on whoever is the leading team at the time. Suddenly X player from a team because the best of their role... despite the player being clearly carried by others. This mentality is why analysis is rarely done by the average person. They refuse to set aside their bias and objectively look at the facts. All these things together, plus some more factors, is what creates this cycle of utter failure and very boring games.

[@lightworker2956]

​@@metamage1685 Of course innovation has value, but if I'm a team owner, I'm picking the player with good mechanics and good teamwork over the player who is good at theorycrafting new builds. Though there would be value in a non-player who can come up with new builds / picks. Indeed, you make a good point that LoL has been moving from strategy / macro to twitch reflexes. Which I think is a shame. Agree that average people are really bad at analysis and are way too results-oriented and band-wagony.

[@metamage1685]

@@lightworker2956 It would depend on the gap. Someone that manages to find one decent innovation per year would need be very in level to the better mechanical player. Team fighting is a lot closer to a tactician's specialty though. On the other hand, someone who can find unique ways of winning say... 4-5 games per split, is just better than a mechanical player unless the Mechanical player is Rookie or Peak TheShy where they can 1v9 a game. As always, the actual differences matter a lot. In this case, however, players that are exceptionally good at draft and pre-game itemization make for infinitely better coaches or analysts. Which no one uses. 99% of coaches and analysts are not worth a 1/10th of their paycheck. In-game innovations are closer to compare with mechanics. In which case I would go with the difference in level on each side. And it is a shame. Playing League used to be comparable to Chess. There was so much skill involved.. now it is far worse. :( And yes... unfortunately, people also think that someone's KDA is macro and that players who get high level on reflexes alone somehow gives them game knowledge. :D It is pretty absurd. And sadly how we end up with useless coaches and analysts so often.

[@lightworker2956]

@@reheyesd8666 I mostly agree. I think it's primarily because if you're cast out in a stone age tribe, that's probably death and very probably means no reproduction for you. Hence "follow the herd" is evolutionarily beneficial.

[@lysander4406]

God please do the meta stuff you talked about big. I certainly am super interested in your "meta read" and your concept which informs this. I know it would probably not gain as much views but I really believe it would be one of the best things you could do for the future of the esport. Your draft distopia video is up till now one if not the most informative video on drafting on youtube I've ever watched Keep doing this content is great

[@andromeda5735]

I wish pros picked new champions and tried new strategies. Yes it would be nice for my favorite pro teams to win and everything, but I wouldn’t be upset if they tried a new strategy and showed potential in it regardless of winning or losing.

[@ThanhThanh-it1pm]

Pro teams take alot of pressuse. When they pick something unmeta. They win that pick become meta lol. When They loose, fan tell them troll the game. At least that pick is strong on ranking. They can't break the meta. Few proplay can take the risk. I know in lpl lck Faker sofm,the shy... but less times year by year. Because they are older not in form, not on top of thier posion for years

[@Megaman-2407]

well they lose: money,fame,respect,etc...........from alot of people you say as if you represent them or something

[@cybercipher5770]

what are you saying. Its their job to win, so of course they pick meta. Riot games is at fault here. By tbh laughable balancing the game does not allow innovation compared to picking meta champs.

[@tomwanders6022]

@@cybercipher5770 you didn’t listen to the video, it was literally said league is in a pretty balanced state, which I think it correct tbh. Veigar is a great example of messing up dash champions, which are everywhere, (ahri, hecarim, zeri, Gwen, graves, etc). I think proteams need to start trying new drafts so proplay doesn’t get so boring like it is lately. I used to be a huge esport fan, but it just became boring the last few years, because almost no one tries countering what someone else is drafting as well as no one trying to fit into a composition.

[@tomwanders6022]

I think a great example of someone trying new things in proplay is c9 academy, where malice plays many different champions, which are still good.

[@josepereira5804]

I think it would be really interesting to have a League tournament where players aren’t allowed to play the same champion twice, or at least twice in the same series. I like how some AoE tournaments do it, where if you win with a civilization, you can’t play it again in that series. Makes it more varied.

[@bryan77791]

Yes but now we will get teams switch drafts between each other, and especially when they can draft the similar picks on the same side (sides selections). So my thought is pre-ban the 1st game champs for both side in the second game, and so on for the 3rd game

[@zenith6957]

@@bryan77791 i think the way to do this is, a team can only play pick this champ once, and the list of champions that can be played or not stay only linked with that one team, for eg, a team pick aizr, it dose not matter if they lose or win they can not pick him again, but the others teams can pick him, if they already haven't. this creates a interesting ban situation, do u ban meta, ur coutures picks or their mains, it would be really fun. lets a 8 team tournament, 3 3 5 games, in total around 55 championship will be played by a team.

[@bryan77791]

@@zenith6957 we have the similar train of thought, and I have the same idea of this too, but what u said could also make the pick ban phase too complicated with 30 sec window. Yes it would be interesting, and yes we could also extend the pick ban windows.

[@wizardgorilla8750]

Or... you can just play an actually balanced game like dota where team comps are naturally varied without needed extra rules lmfao

[@bryan77791]

@@wizardgorilla8750 u got a point, but we were suggesting a change, while still want to play the game :)

[@BudderDog]

Great stuff. LS sitting down is definitely an improvement in my opinion, him standing in the Nasus video looked a bit awkward with the green screen. Not to mention the backdrop choice which is perfect.

[@mystiqe5742]

I think these videos are good for the scene as a whole please keep making more

[@lewismiller2611]

Would absolutely love a video where you talk more in depth about these topics, you are (in my opinion) one of the best minds in esports and a multiple hour video would be hella interesting and valuable. Keep up the great work

[@frucks1831]

Look for tsm draft dystopia

[@ThePavin]

Production looks amazing, hope more of these vids come out!

[@paulpanter2898]

4:00 I think the fast paced patching is actually hurting innovation, not helping it. For one, it creates this kind of strange impetus for players to never invest time into too unconventional picks, because there is always the threat that riot will nerf them once they become popular (something they really like to do with gameplay that doesn't perfectly fit their vision). The fast patching also contradicts the nature of innovation. Because what truly fosters innovation is pressure (-> if you don't innovate you lose). This pressure is much higher when there is little outside change from the developer. For Example: If in the beginning of a meta there is one pick/comp that advantages one side of the draft, and there is no expectation that this will be patched in 2 weeks time, teams face immense pressure to find a counter to said advantageous pick/comp (because they are essentially forced to). During this theorycrafting then, they are much more likely to look at the game in a broader context, because they know they are "stuck" for a while. If you can instead rely on the expectation that anything "out of line"/unorthodox will be adressed relatively quickly, there is basically no incentive to even think about how to counter certain comps/picks. Even worse, it can become actively counterproduktive, since you pay an opportunity cost for the time you spent theorycrafting. Practicing standard becomes the better long-term investmen (at least to stubborn players/coaches, since they are not forced to innovate).

[@BlazingMagpie]

Agreed. There have been several unconventional metas which have been patched out at a time when players were figuring out how to counter them.

[@christopherkonopka4641]

I really love when meta’s change without patches, it feels like the players are being smart instead of just following what the devs do

[@martimreis4429]

great argument, I couldn't agree more! you see this all the time in games like magic the gathering were new expansions take some time to release and the cards can't be tuned by nerfs because well, they're printed cards. This environment forces you to be creative in finding answers to whatever is "meta" at any given point, which allows for dynamic "rock paper scissors" metas to show up - which are, at least in my opinion, better than everyone playing the same boring draft where nothing counters anything and safe picks are prioritized over bold innovative ways of playing the game

[@lightworker2956]

Yeah, excellent point. If you have to relearn the game every few weeks, then you're only going to have time to relearn the meta picks, because you can't really justify to your team / coach that you're unable to play meta champions. Also, every time a new champion comes out or a rework is completed, the game becomes more complex and less newbie-friendly (because reworks usually make champions more complex). So you can't just keep doing that forever. Games need a continual influx of new players or they eventually die.

[@paulpanter2898]

@@martimreis4429 I see it in Age of Mythology, funnily enough. The game is ages old, and gets lightly patched every now and then, I believe, but nothing major. And still people are coming up with new build orders and the meta keeps shifting. Kinda nuts since it is already 20 years old by now.

[@fjallaxd7355]

I've been saying this for ages, people think a champion's popularity equals their strength. Look at champs like Zac, Ivern, Neeko, Morgana, Xerath, Soraka, Shen, and Karthus they can all be REALLY good yet pro players wouldn't dare pick them or try to learn them. People also don't understand that a lot of champs can be played outside of their "designated" lane. Ornn for example can be played in 4 roles, 5 if you count fasted with Senna. Cho, Gragas and Morgana can all be played in 5 roles, not that you would ever see it. Also good video.

[@Arcurath]

omg is that dunlosi's bro, big fan

[@fjallaxd7355]

@@Arcurath Tis, you're also my hero ;)

[@Gurpreet-sv5zg]

This is not silver.

[@AldoDeBotton]

Amazing reflection. Love you taking to the audience on this manner and Providing insight like this. For people that might not see your stream, this is amazing. Keep the work going.

[@chriswilliams3203]

LS I love the way you’ve transitioned into this content creation. It reminds me of the 90s school video learnings I used to have to watch as an adolescent. Nostalgia is like love, an absolutely addictive drug. Your videos bring me nostalgia from my old ass childhood. Thank you. Addiction at its finest.

[@Drumboy450]

Your professionalism, knowledge and intellect always impress the hell out of me. Such an invigorating and constructive person in this community is truly rare! I really appreciate and acknowledge the insane amount of work you put in! It shows and I respect you for it ❤️🙏

[@ジュニアー05]

Imo, I really liked this kind of video, I think its super useful to help understand LoL on a deeper level, and the people that play it. Idk if this has been covered before, but I think a podcast or regular screening talk show of some kind would be great for getting this kind of non-visual, train of thought content across.

[@davidebrambilla9754]

Maybe would be fun if you did a "draft battle" against some proplayer or coach to see how you will handle picks and ecc and talk about why and how you would counter a strategy and so on. Maybe it can be played too afterwards by a "team of your choice" of some sort so we can actually see your vision of the game reflected on screen. Would be so much fun and great content to see ☺️

[@Nazuiko]

Yeah I really wish a big name team in esports would hire LS as head coach, give him time to mentor and train players on these picks and show the world what they can actually do on stage.... Imagine if it was like, T1 or C9 too!

[@4thwall826]

@@Nazuiko it was so close on T1, some fking guy gotta ruin it…

[@azur372]

Seeing VODs of old seasons until ~S7-8 is always interesting because of the comps (even if the gameplay is often clearly behind current days), after that it really kinda feels just all the same.

[@astrax1744]

Agree completely! I'm so tired of this stale meta and see Lee Sin, Viego no matter what. It would be awesome if you could especially address champs like Kayle, Veigar, etc. that require teams to incorporate different playstyles. Looking forward to an extended video!

[@jesterchester8428]

If they nerf these champs all the “mains” go ballistic.

[@vlisto3712]

@@jesterchester8428 I mean it is kind of a problem. The champs the pros are picking aren't actually these incredibly overpowered champions that HAVE to be meta. Pros pick them out of comfort in many cases. So when a champ that's garbage in solo queue gets nerfed again because the pros refuse to try out another champion, it is frustrating.

[@MrLuBuFu]

I mean, I'd love a 1-2 hour talk on innovation in draft. :D

[@MAKRA567]

What I've seen from every competitive scene in several genres (especially team games) is that pros place a LOT of value on consistency. It makes sense: to be the best you need to win such a high percentage of games, and one bad set in a tournament could be the end of the season. If you believe in your skills, you want the outcome to come down to your own play. Reducing variables and inconsistency is a big part of that. And obviously the stakes are high when its your career. But what makes a character good at top level seems to be consistency and lack of weaknesses. (Unless its abuseable with little counterplay, IE broken). But I think that hyperfocus on consistency can really hold teams back. It makes you predictable, you miss out on new innovations, and in this case the meta might not even be optimal. Whenever I see a team/player be truly dominant, theyre usually pioneering a strategy that everyone else has to follow. Potentially, the dominant team moves to a new strategy first and everyone else follows again. Starcraft is maybe the only game I've followed that felt like players were regularly trying wild new strategies, using cheese in tournaments, and preparing counters to their opponents unique styles. There's still a clear meta and many games follow a consistent pattern, but even the most consistent tournament winners in the world still value mixing in cheese strategies to keep their opponent's play honest. I think the 1v1 nature helps a lot, because you only have answer to yourself if a risk doesn't pay off. It's hard enough to convince solo queue players to play along with an unorthodox strategy, I can't imagine how hard it would be to convince a professional organization that requires results to keep their jobs. Another reason might be that preparing counter strategies for a team/player is more useful if each team/player has their own distinct style with different weaknesses. As the other teams all gravitate towards the same few picks and same gameplan, it becomes less valuable to develop radical counterplay measures for any individual opponent.

[@TheUberDuo]

I couldn't agree more. You being coach for C9 was some of the most exciting (short as it was) league has been. Imagine all teams had that level of champion diversity. As a side note: you briefly mentioned "what makes a champion strong?". I would LOVE a similar type video where we expand on that topic. Great video, keep it coming ❤️

[@GuiltySoul73]

I really like this kind of videos where you give so much insight of what's happening in the league rn, really makes you think the current state of the game. A very informative video. I really hope someone will respond to your video just to see what their thoughts about this topic, especially coaches/players. It will be an interesting discussion to talk, honestly. Also looking at the video rn, i'm really glad that you are facing the camera this time! You keep me engaged and interested, thus I watch the whole video. That said, I still think your video need text/pictures, just so the video wouldn't be too empty (but not too crowded either of course). Nonetheless, this video delivers what you wanted to convey, and that's good. Kudos to you and production team! Keep up the good work!

[@Izkimar]

Would definitely be interested in seeing a longer more in depth video on this topic. Also, I think one thing that is worth looking into is game specific culture. I think the way Riot balances has also created a sort of feedback loop that has built a culture where pro's don't look to innovate. Instead they wait for patch changes to dictate what picks they are going to play for a patch cycle. Whereas, with a game like DOTA 2 that is balance in a completely different manner, you see a much larger presence of the Hero roster and innovation in pro play than you do in League. So I think sub-culture from game to game also might be another factor in this.

[@fbiagent6456]

Dota is different because all carry items are viable for any type of carries. You have BKB, MKB, Daedalus which are compatible to many types of carries that deals with various situations. Every carry in dota builds BKB but why are we not calling the item builds stale and meta heavy?

[@Izkimar]

@@fbiagent6456 Sure but the caveat to that is that in League both champ pool and item builds are also stale. Also, isn't it a bit of a false equivalency to point back at itemization being stale in comparison to the core aspect of the game which is champions/heroes?

[@theIronCraftler]

I would really love a longer video about this topic. I have watched tsm draft dystopia multiple times already, and everytime i watch it again i notice something else that i have missed before, or that makes more sense now that ive gotten better at the game. I dont know if there will be a high demand for the type of video you are talking about, but i genuinely believe that it could have a very positive effect on league.

[@vitzky636]

The whole reason I was so excited for LCS this year was because we had C9, TSM, TL, 100T, EG all representing different areas of the world and I was super excited for different play styles and champion picks.. but now it’s just the same old.. the first 2 weeks of LCS were super fun to watch. Now I just watch C9 because I’ve been a fan since 2013

[@luminous3558]

EG ruined inspired. 0 clue why they hired such a good jungler with unique picks only to force him on the most standard picks.

[@jorgelenny47]

It feels like there's fringe evolution scattered around the world, in teams like bisons or whatever, but it's so minuscule that noone will notice and it slowly dies and fades away

[@Amaling]

I think the most important thing for us to consider from this video is that we can basically play anyone we want to and do better. Fuck what the pros use, over 100 characters are viable. Play what you like :)

[@Gimperion]

Serious LS > Hysterical LS. This is really poignant and on point.

[@wilsonkimber8119]

I would love to see a long for video of you explaining a couple picks in each role that are really strong and why you think they aren't picked in pro play. These could be really out there choices like nasus sup and ivern mid that have proven to be successful that you have supported for a long time

[@saintsataniko2116]

I think the avatar of stagnation is Bjergsen...just Bjergsen! Wherever he appears it is like dumping mud on a race track. Everything just grinds to a halt.

[@simonjager8649]

In case of a longer video you could support your thoughts with comps, including 1-2 "unpopular" champs and explain what makes them strong, both in general but also in the specific comp

[@tofdijulian6542]

I would love that hour-long Video! Its like a podcast about League from one of the smartest minds in pro play, I‘d love it

[@RyanT-3]

For me this "problem" is linked to the simple fact that league is a game that evolves and with a lot of patches frequently. Pros don't have time to train characters for specific situations if they don't have the information if this will be avaible 2 months later. For example smash bros is a game where the meta is very large and where pros keep learning and manage to find solutions for different situations, and i think it's because they have time to play a game that don't change. Obviously League isn't a fighting game and isn't as deep in terms of 1v1 but i'm sure there are a lot of manners to play some situations but yes they might take a lot of practice, so pros take champs they are familiar with and are steady for each patch. But i think we are going in the right directions, each year we can see new picks and more diversity, new champions and reworks help with that because they take the focus for like a month but i think huge otp in solo queue is important too because pros can see what each champions can do with a lot of practice. It takes time and effort from pros but i think we can see new things as time goes.

[@johndeagler4556]

Lee sin is always useful because he can fit into most play styles. He can dive, peel, front to back, play slow or fast, can be picked as an assassin or bruiser. He has utility with 2 forms of cc, shielding for peel and front to back. And the ability to dive into the back line and force adc missposition

[@CwuLacha]

Honestly really enjoyed this video. Great points and it really does feel weird seeing how this all develops. It feels like champions like Irelia are a perfect example of this where they were only ever really popular when they were so overtuned it was ridiculous.Nowadays it doesn’t seem to matter that she is a great flex pick because she requires a lot of work to be threatening in either lane. There are a lot of other examples of this where pro players definitely have main loyalty which is understandable as some of them got their careers started playing these champions but it really does completely ignore what could be used as hard counters and interesting comps.

[@Amaling]

Irelia still sees a fair bit of play bro. She’s nowhere near the unpopularity of most of the champs in this game who aren’t in the pro player club. Compare Irelia play rate to Riven or Kled

[@CwuLacha]

@@Amaling I agree that she sees a fair bit of play but its from the people who actually put in work back when she was busted to learn the champion. She is probably not going to be a real part of the meta again unless she becomes overtuned since otherwise it will be the same people who play Irelia every time and she won't become a popular pick because most pros will say "Why bother when I have a different champ that I know better?"

[@majorscrub2856]

@@CwuLacha Irelia is a perfect example of a healthy champion in the pro-meta. Certain people can pilot her, she is picked in certain games and into certain matchups, however she isn't pick-ban or forces a meta to be defined around her.

[@CwuLacha]

@@majorscrub2856 ok fair enough actually. Guess examples like Ivern are better examples. My b there

[@benbarsh1943]

The hour long video of this would be so awesome. I think we would also love to see pros (veteran and young) in on the conversation to get their perspective as well!

[@Beefwelliington]

I get so excited when watching games when someone picks something that isnt the meta

[@amesace1]

I would absolutely love to see more theory videos on this channel. I think a lot of people follow you for your very different, and sometimes divisive takes in league. It is an extremely refreshing way to look at the game after seeing the same stuff rotate year over year.

[@mathuswins]

Good day, I am happy to see you happy. Keep going

[@barrybrame5134]

A long video about this with examples of patterns, the complexities of what makes a champion actually "Good", why pro players are so slow to transition or never transition etc. would be very interesting to have as like a podcast. The topic is complex and the issues from players to the game itself keep compounding. In fact, LS deep dives on topics as a podcast would be really cool to have again in this similar manner.

[@KriibusRS]

Someone is washing clothes first minute into the video lol. That sound is the international washing machine sound.

[@zhejabello658]

LS is the official supporter of "off-meta" picks. I love it. I'm gonna legit start linking this video in my low-elo games. People freak out over off meta picks when in reality they really aren't that bad and have never really been that bad.

[@NoahDot]

Damn last time I came this early my girlfriend left me

[@bequang00]

An extended video about this would be sick. Something that could be cool is a video where LS and a coach/player just drafts against each other and talks about it.

[@aurelyon]

Hey LS, its everybody

[@lucahappel]

Loving the production! Thats some high level stuff. Setup is totaly worth!

[@jorgemelecio4565]

I would be super down for an hour long video like that. The idea of an in-depth look on the meta of the meta is exactly the type of content I wish there was more of!

[@zebrion5793]

I love this style of video. Just sitting down and talking about a single topic. This is a GREAT way to get your insight out to pros and casuals alike.

[@asmodeus4207]

I would love a longer video on this subject. I think it's super interesting and it hits at one of the biggest reasons I play strategy and RPG games.

[@chewyspedoodle5499]

My personal opinion is that this size of video is more palatable and gives more time to digest what you're talking about than something longer. Also, I think it allows LS to have his thoughts more accurately portrayed because of more preparation. I haven't watched LS in a while. The only League content I absorb is Tyler1. I don't even play anymore. I have just subbed to LS because of this video, though. I really enjoyed it.

[@userjatto1603]

I feel like GOATs in the overwatch pro play was something that could show how unorthodox picks can be better than what’s the norm

[@alessandromezzanotte2934]

Good to see LS moved his set up to finally work alongisde Boris the shopkeeper

[@allthatOTHERshiiet]

I think not only new champion and reworks, but new items and item changes are also super impactful on shifting the meta completely

[@bruhmoment8279]

All your direct engagement videos have the best views because were here for your view on the game. We all want to see you dig deep into league related things.

[@drewstopher6696]

Production quality is insane, well done.

[@gwoods869]

Imagine how cool it would be for unique picks per player being the norm. Like knowing a certain top laner for his Yorick and Quinn while his opponent is known for his Morde and Riven. Teams building around unique picks would be so much more interesting

[@Fgtr4Life]

As someone who stopped watching league due to said lack of innovation, and as a first time viewer of yours no less, I will say that this breakdown video you made is very engaging to listen to. If you made more of these style of videos, I for one would for sure keep an eye out for when they release.

[@rowan2828]

I would love to watch a long-form discussion between you and either current or ex-pros about this topic as it would provide multiple perspectives and points of view on the topic. It could even be specific if that was an interesting angle with people like DL and Danny, or Summit and Impact etc. Whatever the format or people involved in it, I would personally watch it and I think lots of other people would be interested. Lots of lol fans aren't 0 patience Andy's and want more long-form content discussing complex or even philosophical league topics.

[@Lotusmustdie]

I would love watching your thoughts on this issue more. Loved you shaking up the meta a tiny bit when you coached C9, would love to see you continue to influence the drafts.

[@alaskanbob123]

Please keep making vids on this topic! Super interesting.

[@Moderocky]

It would be nice if they had some kind of lock-out tournament draft, where you could play a champion only once/twice per tournament, so teams would have to expand their champion pool to include some innovative or unorthodox picks.

[@jackofromsouth]

Some people have given the idea of allowing teams to pick a champ only once per series (Bo3 &Bo5), once a team picks a champ that champion gets disabled for both teams, considering that there are more than 155 each game would remove only 6.4% of the total amount of champs (25.6% before silver scrapes) having still almost 75% of all the champs available for the last game in a hypothetical Bo5

[@Frankeszn]

I honestly think a long video would be great about this. I also really like your analogy with MTG color sets when talking about draft. I think there really is a tie between the two games and would love a more in depth conversation on that topic as well.

[@sabreburst]

0:30 The waching machine in the background lmao. Had me confused, thought it was my own washing machine.

[@varro3847]

Not a fan of LS but I do enjoy hearing his perspective on things and found myself wanting a deeper analysis of this subject. Please make a longform version!

[@kacumo]

I wish you come back some day to coaching, those weeks were so fucking damn, not just fun but also refreshing, I also would love a serie with this content and pretty sure lot of people would too

[@rickjames-qg7fs]

Some of the most exciting series of all time involved innovation. i.e. Misfits vs SKT with Blitzcrank, SKT vs ROX Zyra Ashe, and G2 toplane Pyke.. They're the moments we montage and cite as the most exciting and best League ever played. Being innovative is what gives the worse teams (mostly Western) a chance at winning at international events.

[@Yopop1]

I like this kind of vid because it's pure ls theory/logic without the more memey elements in the regular style of vids.

[@xkavvu9545]

Holy shit yes please we need this news feed talk show format

[@anthonymarge2106]

For tangibility in discussing this topic, you could look at pick/ban rates for various leagues over the years, and highlight champions that fell out of the meta but are good

[@jakeoconnell4208]

I like the topic, what makes a champ good? Break it down by position and what each position needs to be able to do in order to be efficient in that position

[@saileshkethepalli9590]

I personally would like more of these videos on perceptions of the game and champion power level. The ideas you talk about seem to be outside of the box but in reality they should be fundamental to the game.

[@TiloDroid]

tsm draft dystopia was the video making me realise youre a genius and also how deep drafting theory can be without me even understanding everything

[@aberrantreptile]

I know I’d be interested in the full length examination of this. I find it super interesting

[@alfredlorenzen868]

Hi LS. In regards to this video type of "non-gameplay" concepts within esports, I'd love to listen to it, as I do not know a lot about it, and I imagine it would make for a deeper understanding of everything esports. If you decide to do it, i will watch the 1-2 hour videos(although i might break it into pieces for my own understandng), The examples you come up with are great, and i imagine they would help me a great deal(and perhaps other viewers) when it is not directly gameplay oriented. Keep up the great work.

[@reverb7543]

Towards the end you talk about the 1-2 hour video similar to the Draft Dystopia video. I would love to see a video like that about the diversity and power level of unplayed champs in pro play. Maybe you could bring up different drafts and show examples of why picking X and Y champion here would be the actual “meta” pick

[@justaguy9681]

Please do a two hour video on this topic LS, it's great hearing you talk about this kind of stuff

[@shanecoffing]

I think the best idea I have heard is to not allow double dipping in each pro game. Basically, if a champ was picked in the previous game, it cannot be picked again the next game. It would make games alot more diverse and would make 3rd round games so much more tense and exciting not seeing the same 6 champs every game. Would even allow for some extreme counter picks or wildly unused strategies ( Morgana/malzahar Botlane, J4 + orianna, aatrox/Leona Botlane)

[@kyleswirtz9396]

Love this production for videos. Super excited for the future of the channel!

[@fudgefactor1639]

Day 100 of going in. I really like this style of video. I think it adds a nice variety to all the pro play commentary style videos. Plus, it’s nice to have a concise video explaining some of these concepts.

[@TimoCruz177]

not sure how it would be received but I love to watch a podcast with other pro related players to talk about pro play in general. not just a vacuum chamber but 2 or more people talking about their view of the pro scene

[@e.g.jamestrumm7101]

i really enjoy listening to LS talk about the game, very interesting and eye-opening everytime

[@Nazuiko]

Love you for answering this question with a semi-thought out (Since as you even said, you could talk about this for several times longer) question! Is there any ideas you have to elaborate on "bomb dropping" and fixing this stale meta that has barely moved since 2018?

[@Maru4992]

Please do a video on this. This was fascinating because I go in an out of watching pro league games and it's so dull to still seeing the same champs over the years.

[@Undeadangel]

TBH. my favorite LS content is the stuff like this were he does a full explanation. In this type of format. Please gimi more of this. I know LS doesn't like repeating himself but im ok with things getting repeated and would watch the new video because things slightly change over time or if they dont it just showcases the point more.

[@InquisitorEden]

I love this and want an 2 hour video

[@VerbalLearning]

I think it would be really cool and useful if orgs hired theorycrafters. As in a person or persons who's job it is to experiment with various different comps, champions, item builds, rune pages etc. And whenever they find and test something that they believe is promising, they can then pass it off to the pro players to test further in either solo-que or scrims. While it hasn't happened super frequently, we have seen examples of players like Voyboy for example, popularising a new item build for an old champion or some random person in solo-que finds a strange off meta pick and build and makes it work and it spreads to pro play at least briefly (like smite top Janna) which shows that there's powerful strategies not being utilized in pro play simply because they haven't experimented enough. I can see how from a pro player's perspective trying to practice a new champion can feel like a massive risk because of the time investment and opportunity cost that ultimately might not lead to anything. So having part of this process be done by people who are specifically tasked to do it, would minimize the risk and workload on the pros shoulders and open up the opportunity for new picks to be tried more easily as it has already been partially vetted by someone who hopefully/ideally knows what they're doing.

[@MattL4J]

People primarily watch you because of your immense knowledge. Any in-depth breakdowns would be very welcome imo

[@Fr0gSplashh]

This is what you should do IMO : create a series called "How they should have drafted" and every week just play on screen a draft that actually happened in pro play and pause it every ban / pick to give your thoughts about what should have been banned / picked there instead.

[@Jusvidz]

to make the diversity in draft long-form video more concrete, you could select one team and look at their draft throughout an entire season and point out where they could have done things differently

[@EluminAtiCK]

Definitely, for pro players champions need to have 2 things: 1. They can't have hard to counter - in way there is no other champion(except perma bans) that hardcounters them rending then useless or making lane very hard. 2. They need to fit to some popular compositions/some kind of strategy. There is so many good and strong champions currently. But usually they don't fit into what team tries to achieve, or are easily counterable and not worth to learn.

[@danielkanewske8473]

I think that there is also a fear driven component to this caused by single game match ups in the LCS. If a player is "good" at a champion but instead ops into an "off" pick and then, for reasons not necessarily entirely in their control, things do not go well in the one game they play against a team, thenthey look bad, get flamed on reddit, damages their brand etc etc etc

[@niconico9358]

i love this kind of work LS, and i would love to see that hour long video of your thoughts on the matter. stay safe LS!

[@orewaflo8582]

I would love to watch you going in depth into bp and why. Look forward to seeing more of it.