Forcing DredgeVine In The Vintage Cube

I've been skeptical of the Dredge deck so far, and this time I decided to force it and see what the chatter (or lack thereof) is all about.
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[@Cephalopocalypse]

9:45 that's the Dredge alarm, it's a cube failsafe they programmed in to keep the strategy in check. You're probably the first to trigger it which is why it's not widely known

[@turtledove19]

Lol, GOAT comment

[@paul8222]

Anyone else think it was THEIR fire alarm going off?

[@kensey007]

I jumped out of my seat irl.

[@richglix]

My dog certainly did, she freaked out.

[@johnlawyer4954]

My apartment building just caught fire the other day shit was borderline PTSD inducing 😂

[@EFGruesome]

The rare spoiler I’m happy to have

[@cdauber62]

I jumped and paused the video in panic LSV how could you

[@bricelory9534]

Round 1 - what an insane opposing deck.

[@scotera]

I think their may have been some LSenVy at that deck, something he would be giddy playing, hah.

[@dstreetz91]

Yeah that deck was gross. That many big mana rocks it's hard to overcome playing more fair magic like this deck. This deck can pop off, but it needs an ideal draw to compete with that.

[@G.Aaron.Fisher]

Agreed that Wrenn and Six and Life from the Loam are both sources of lands in hand and can be slightly redundant. But the card Six is much more of a sink for lands in hand than it is a source of them. Having Six makes me want Loam even more.

[@Waghabond]

The hogaak getting hit with smirking spelljacker sure did bring a smirk to my face. The dredge deck jumps through so many hoops just to get completely destroyed by just about any interactive spell in the cube.

[@giancarlocafaro6734]

Ya, the supposed payoff cards are so easily dealt with in the format. So many hoops in drafting and drawing the right cards at the right time only to really just be a mediocre deck. I’d put up with that since it sure can be strong sometimes, it it is such a damper on the entire draft environment that it’s just not worth it.

[@Cthuski]

Off the dredge deck topic but I got to cast an opponent's tibalt by spell jacking valki the other day, did not know I could do that until the option window popped up. Sweet interaction

[@leroyj62]

CalebD seems to win with it. I have a 71% win rate in vintage cube and it's my worst deck.

[@superwulfi8150]

If it was literally any other counterspell, he could just get there again. idk, it's been great for me

[@Waghabond]

@superwulfi8150 memory lapse, swords to plowshares, fractured identity, oust, path to exile just straight up answer it. Any other interactive spell like bitter triumph, brazen borrower, would make it so that it definitely wont come out for at least a couple more turns. Like it's just so many things that have to line up and so many resources that need to be burned in order to get a creature that is not all that much better than a colossal dreadmaw.

[@grin_of_grimmsnarl1333]

Man I was stunned to see he actually did the thing! Round one opponent stomping him with the ol' LSV special is ironically insane.

[@yamchadragonball6983]

He didnt get survival or bazaar, so i demand a do-over

[@joshualangowells6101]

44:48 - Rules question - can you keep the psychic frog in the graveyard because Grist also counts as a creature in this scenario, so you don't need to exile both for the nethergoyf escape?

[@benlucas3151]

yes

[@aronb.1273]

Yep

[@caochadttv]

the irony of forcing this deck and then being in the seat that kinda needed to force the deck based on how the packs broke is peak lsv value.

[@Spaccaspecchi]

That first opponent truly had it all.

[@nekrataali]

I was expecting opponent to play an Academy into LED and Brainfreeze.

[@Billyofcourse]

this deck actually seemed insanely good. Your opponent round 1 had a completely busted deck, and even then the stuff you were doing those games seemed impressive ignoring the absolute insanity on the other side of the table.

[@richglix]

I was hoping for a p1p1 academy again to see if you could resist

[@Joshuralize]

3:28 "BK's not wrong" Better hope BK doesn't watch these!

[@seanjo]

round 1 the opponent was really cookin, crazy deck. they probably didnt even draw their academy 😂

[@almogdov]

"But no no, I was gonna do more" I love that after decades of magic, LSV still enjoys the game like us, common folks. pure joy lol

[@Jetsetdreams_]

LSV having a blast playing the deck in the archetype he trash talked is poetic justice. Super sweet interactions! "This deck is a little better than people give it credit for." - LSV Are the "people" in the room with us now, LSV?

[@Spike-hl2mw]

Clearly the fire alarm went off because this deck is fire.

[@amacuro]

Thank you for creating videos with strategies that you normally don't do, it really makes it more interesting for a lot of the viewers like me :)

[@colelove6372]

Watching a railroad draft is a lot different than the normal thoughtful drafts. I wouldn't mind having a "force x archtype" draft episode once a week.

[@davidwindsor2579]

The problem with dredge cards in cube is that they need to work in multiples. Like an artifact deck would take more copies of Urza for consistency, but getting one Vengevine back is so much worse than 2-4

[@eklypzn]

Lol that fire alarm almost made me jump off the toilet. 😂

[@ZombieShibby]

Forcing dredgevine! *literally no cards with dredge or vine in the deck*

[@nadavkomor]

Troll lsv

[@blakewilliams8148]

Dredgevine is a state of mind

[@danielthompson1626]

At the end, everything becomes Crab.

[@colesmith5114]

Dredge in cube is the equivalent of shooting the moon

[@matthewmartell3148]

We finally did it! (Kinda). The key cards to make all of the vengevine/rootwalla stuff work are survival of the fittest and (to a lesser extent) bazaar. If you see those early, that's a good reason to give it another go.

[@MnemonicNex]

The alarm went off because this dredge deck is just too hot!

[@pidgeotroll]

@LSV when my fire alarm went off with no explanation, it ended up being the dryer vent that was so backup up with lint it was starting to smoke at high heat levels. Just something to check.

[@bricelory9534]

47:45 - what am I missing, isnt Troll + Bestow Phoenix onto Ghast lethal? Lol - nevermind!

[@brothertobias]

Cube facts: - Nothing wrong with a Mox - Fire covenant is good, but we don't take it - Deep Cavern Bat wheels

[@Lv80Mudkip]

I’ve force drafted gaak 4 times on mtgo and have been pretty impressed. 2 trophies, a 2-1, and a 1-2. I think it’s a totally reasonable archetype, but if it’s ever contested it’s basically unplayable. I believe it’s best when you get some of the busted red three drops, they all play so well in the deck.

[@maclowe1254]

BK should be a weekly guest, at least love watching y'alls drafts

[@michaelzengerling1952]

This video really sold me on Detective's Phoenix. Really low opportunity cost for such a powerful effect!

[@ShadowInTheSky2]

I was listening to this while driving and I nearly had a heart attack.

[@nobodyhere22500]

Says a lot when cards built for the archetype are still getting cut.

[@caochadttv]

yeah but tbf how many times does LSV draft tinker but cut blightsteel or battleball its the same thing granted he might think those should be cut too

[@treycuret]

Tbf this June reanimator list was maybe the loosest definition of dredge one could have 😂

[@ElMoss64]

Poor Vengevine can't even make the cut in the Vengevine deck

[@MrAnthonyjustice]

Good times! The phoenix is looking great these past few days so strong with the land cyclers in both directions. I like this over winston.

[@peewee0224]

man that first match felt like lsv being 100% justified in his beliefs lol

[@Anusien]

“BK’s not wrong.” 3:36 This is LSV’s “I’m being kidnapped and held under duress” signal

[@cemperable]

"Forcing DredgeVine" - proceeds to pass Vengevine

[@vagrantvienna]

This is so absolutely hilarious, thank you for your sacrifice to science 😂

[@Kendal411]

The madlad finally did it.

[@anthonyjs8048]

Jesus Christ that first deck what the f. Anyways, i LOVED your deck here, it looked awesome to play.

[@TheArcbound]

Sometimes they just have Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, Grim Monolith, AND Sol Ring - lol.

[@eggu1828]

25:43 casually queued into competitive edh

[@modestbukowski]

Fun to see this, and all the cards are always available. Personally I would ditch the frog + atraxa and focus harder on the archetype (Vengevine in) + some hand destruction and it would've been even better. Please hard force it again, was fun to watch once the graveyard popped off like that!

[@BillyMays162]

At 44:44 can't you leave pyschic frog in the graveyard because grist counts for two types?

[@RyanSandorRichards]

Luis, thanks for posting every day. I watch your drafts when I’m iced up at physical therapy and they help the time fly by 😊

[@dylanm.4875]

Round 2 opponent had one of those decks that only your opponents can cast your spells thing going for it. Truly polar opposite matches from round 1 opp who looked like they got to bring their constructed vintage cube deck to a draft

[@Nathan-wq6uj]

2:40 Territorial Jules

[@Yurioh]

9:45 SMALL HEART ATTACK

[@aidanchutkan8662]

I think my only problem with this deck is that ultimately most of your wins came from just casting crabomination. Hogaak and co. just feel like a lot of hoops to jump through for less payoff than just jamming your big threats. On the other hand, some of the engines like wight of the reliquary, six, detective’s phoenix, and psychic frog are very strong. I can see the discard/graveyard archetype being a staple just without going all-in on dredge.

[@treycuret]

It's weird to me that he either cut or drafted around a decent portion of the dredge engines in the deck and people think it's the fault of the dredge cards. He built a very loose dredge deck because he kept drafting reanimator, cut the major payoffs for dredge because he didn't really all-in on the cards, and people are surprised the deck doesn't perform as a dredge deck?

[@Evvins]

The fact that this deck isn't great but also gets wrecked by reanimator hate is rough. I've had this archetype for a while in my, admitedly slightly weaker, cube and I've cut down a bit on graveyard hate. Especially mass grave hate like relic and endurance. I'll also say things like vengevine and the blazing rootwala never worked out for me. Getting an aggressive version of the deck to work just requires too many moving pieces and there's not enough redundancy imo. On the other hand I've seen self mill decks with things like bazaar and dredger or hogaak + altar of dementia use thassa's oracle as a wincon and be quite powerful, especially alongside dread return. edit: and tbh this deck fared not that badly since, let's be real, not that many decks could beat those game 1 draws.

[@giancarlocafaro6734]

The actual factual dredge mechanic is by far the most broken mechanic of all these gy synergies. I agree with your take on aggro versions; they are good because you can play multiple vengevine and attack for like 12 on turn 1 or whatever. Attacking with 1 4/3 in this format is cute and all but can easily be overpowered by a normal curve.

[@Lukester44]

Faithless looting would have been like a 10 in this deck

[@treycuret]

He didn't pick the dredge enabler then said there wasn't enough to justify putting the dredge payoffs in...

[@philosopherhobbs]

I appreciate you going for it. I'm not sure this was even the best version of the deck but you managed to build it well given what was there. The grave hate in the current cube seems tough. I hope to see you try it some more in the future. Seems like some hand disruption would strengthen the deck quite a bit.

[@gkeuler]

1 pick in and I'm already confused, isnt the DredgeVine deck jund aggro, so isn't Laelia the pick by a mile?

[@giancarlocafaro6734]

Fetches are still totally busted in dredge and laelia isn’t even that synergistic with the deck archetype. It’s not a cheap creature to trigger vengevine, it’s not a green or black creature to cast Hogaak, etc. definitely not first pick by a mile compared to a fetch.

[@shawnosnap3462]

Nah red usually a splash and Leila doesn’t do anything for the deck. Still good but the deck doesn’t need it at all,

[@gkeuler]

@@giancarlocafaro6734 Fetches are amazing this I can't deny but I guess Red must be a minor color in this deck because this is like skipping Sheoldred for a fetch in my mind

[@giancarlocafaro6734]

@@gkeuler ohhh no I think that is not a correct evaluation of laelia in this situation. Sheoldred is miles ahead of laelia. Now, if laelia was a bombardiers, then that might be a closer comparison. Edit: btw, this is precisely why dredge has historically not been a great archetype. Not only are the cards it needs not particularly powerful, it kinda disincentivizes you from picking good cards.

[@christopherlundgren1700]

I think if you’re trying to promote a “big graveyard” package like this, you might also need to de-emphasize cards that hate it out. Deathrites or Scavenging Ooze probably still fine, but Endurance, Soulguide, Relic of Progenitus kind of cards just randomly hating on an already sketchy archetype. Sure, you want to have answers for reanimator, but why is there still so much of it?

[@painterdubs]

Really cool to see a new archetype being played. 🦀 is a house. Wouldn't mind seeing more of this because there might be more card combinations and it's nice to get the all the wheels. Last pick detective phoenix which carried multiple games at the end.

[@BettaFishTaco]

Actually really pleased to see this deck get vindicated. Glad we finally made it happen.

[@petro5747]

Excited for take 2 of this deck, feels like there’s actually some gems in here. Hogaak+Phoenix was definitely a thing

[@adriannathaniel3894]

“I’m gonna force dredge” Proceeds to pass almost every card meant for the archetype and draft jund reanimator

[@TheAdventuresOfAdam]

Dredge OP confirmed! Just as you suspected! 😁

[@garagavia]

Great draft, really excited to see this ❤

[@SpacePirate11717]

I find it both funny and a shame that Vengevine didn't even make the cut in the dredgevine deck.

[@kbearl]

On the fire alarm I would say check it for bugs, we had one go off multiple times before I checked and there were some dead bugs in it.

[@MrPaulOnline]

So, with Nethergoyf, could you have exiled two cards and then either Grist/Phoenix? It says "four types" so that would've been creature-planeswalker or enchantment-creature and left you with one additional card.

[@spyral71]

I played in a league the other day and got DESTROYED by probably the best version of this deck I've seen. Had Hogaak, Six, Vengevine, the one that gets +1/+1 per permanent in the GY. . .deck was NUTS. . .he had that card up to...I think 13/14.

[@ublabaah3908]

When the archetype gets hosed by counterspells, removal spells, hand disruption, artifact and enchantment destruction, graveyard hate and most of the random hatebear cards, oh, and is beaten by faster decks and decks that do more powerful stuff, there does seem to be a bit of problem with the archetype.

[@mulldrifterz6469]

I don't think you were winning round 1 no matter what deck you drafted, they had the nuts. The deck didn't look bad though, really.

[@LaserfaceJones]

I've been waiting for this!

[@Jake_S_]

Crabominatin seems sweet. Especially if you can recur it.

[@BasicProcrastination]

after watching these hijinks, i gotta request more dredge when possible

[@KnowArt]

might not be the best, but it surely works and seems like a blast to play

[@tylercousens3467]

Ok I did not expect the dredge vine deck to be so much fun

[@markparker2012]

The one we have all been waiting for!

[@BladedEdge123]

The cards for this sort of deck ending up both in the side board, or just not picked at all over better cards for the deck (and LSV offers valid reasons he didn't take such) but like, he had access to every gof and walla in the cube and didn't need any of them. The deck as it is showed its perfectly viable without any of those things in it. Which says to me that all of those cards are a bad addition to the cube, that LSV thinking so is 100% right. That this deck as he drafted it is better perhaps then he/others give it credit for? Like it was competitive against other decks which were not "the nuts" or so on, which is more then fine for any vintage cube deck to be worth keeping cards for it in rotation. But the rootwallas? The gofs? Vengevine and bloodgast? Yah. You could replace all of those (and ok maybe the goyfs are worth keeping i dunno) with other cards that are meant for this exact kind of deck, and make it both more viable while not having all those aforementioned cards essentially always being the last 1-3 cards you see in packs and no one ever plays.

[@jordancaldwell2208]

This is what we've been waiting for.

[@williamraber3103]

I usually pop on an LSV video when i am going to bed. Talk about a jump scare when that alarm went off lol. Maybe just edit it all out next time and explain why?

[@Flashofblades]

Im like 10 mins in, but the fire alarm came on because of this fire deck OBVIOUSLY

[@InsertCleverNameHere0]

It was the Dark Depths Alarm 😂

[@Moxadonis]

Dredge with no dredge.

[@UnknowableSir]

It would be cool to see the lands deck, pack 1 there was a late scapeshift into titania with a late zuran orb in pack 2

[@FlagellumDei78]

Now this was fun!

[@jontrumble5315]

I think I finally understand why lsv complains so much about the dredge deck. He has the slow value engine version of the deck rather than the fast aggressive vegevine-rootwalla-bazaar version.

[@ZeroIsEven]

Malevolent Rumble FTW … gunna need to add that to my vintage cube now.

[@wesleykorisky8600]

Your round one and three opponents were just filthy cheaters with their perfect draws 🤣

[@ring-tailedlemurs8744]

I think the take away from this is Modern Horizon cards are good.

[@michelenocci30]

Its no the best archetype by a long shot but it did well here, honestly the first opponent had a 10/10 deck so

[@garagavia]

This deck was really quite strong, no?

[@Teap35]

So basically if they are going to have this dredge stuff they should get rid of the graveyard hate? it isn't powerful enough to survive through a peice or two of hate.

[@stevenbaer3624]

When he brought back goyf shouldn't he not have been able to use psychic frog and grist?

[@austinnadz1]

I came here for nonsense and wasn't disappointed again.

[@Sk82478]

Uhhh can we talk about how many tinkers this man opens yet? I mean I’ve been waiting for years for someone to explain this to me😅 😉

[@Rhystic_Buddy]

Malevolent Rumble sitting in the wrong pile, wow BK needs to joke on your for this one

[@Waghabond]

Rumble wasn't in the wrong pile because the piles are not "spells vs creatures". The piles are "cards that contribute to the deck's curve vs cards that are typically not going to get played on curve"

[@Rhystic_Buddy]

@@Waghabond ew

[@anopenletterx]

alright we’re forcing jund *third picks a blue card*

[@TJMiton]

the issue with this deck is that it's just a straight up legacy cube deck.

[@arpacoo]

Ok this was great content. A lot of novelty, very interesting, felt like I had to say it after commenting that Academy gets boring.

[@jrjamesson]

your deck seemed sweet, do not judge it too harshly based on how ridiculous your match 1 opponent was!

[@jrjamesson]

also, in m2g1 fighting through two rec sages and an endurance was pretty impressive

[@pyromusicman21]

I wonder if it was too much of "this is generically good in a dredge deck" and not enough "this is good with that" ?

[@goldcobraarima9819]

Why not Crop Rotation for Bazzar?

[@bigwig8657]

I feel like dredge might be the single worst 60 card to singleton power fall off.

[@tialkgoauld3087]

Is it something like a running gag now to always say that BK likes 'Once Upon a Time'.. I remember him saying its not - from his perspective .. But LSV keeps repeating BK likes it.. xD