LS | The State of Balance in League of Legends ft. Riot Phreak and Riot Phroxzon

[@nutscream]

Can we get more of this? Like once a month? Thats good sh*t

[@phecalelafia7850]

😅 It's better to let them work on the balances themselves.

[@darrak1]

@@phecalelafia7850 this is kinda working on it though, brainstorming is a very big part of it and with someone outside or your usual circle with very different ideas in a lot of ways... that's gonna add a lot of value for the balacing team

[@Habeev07]

Buff Twitch Phreak. Buff mages Buff tanks Nerf K'Sante Nerf Smolder LETS SEE A FRONTLINE THAT CAN SURVIVE AND NOT GET ONE SHOT AFTER 30 MINS. Make it to where the team actually can fight front to back and do a durability patch. NO MORE 1 SHOTS!! LET MID AND ADC BE THE CARRIES LIKE INTENDED!!

[@Workplaylister]

@@Habeev07 "Buff tanks" this man was not watching league back in the dark ages

[@dragomaster2422]

Homie did not listen to anything LS said at 0:33

[@HienLeGia]

The fact that LS has worked with such diligence that most internal Riot devs are confident in doing this. Outside of PR strategy, this is both rare and may set an example for people in this realm of career(Coach/Analyst/etc)

[@karole7345]

Esport teams are on riots payroll LS works for flyquest

[@madara2892]

Really love the people at riot getting themselves out there and explaining their thoughtprocess behind things. It shows that they care, that they had a good idea even if it goes wrong and that they are just people trying to do a good job. Community can get really toxic at devs so these videos are amazing to help see the people working for you not against you.

[@archique9701]

Same. Overall I think theyve been doing a decent job, but its so much better to actually hear the thought processes behind changes. A) I can adjust my own play accordingly B) A lot of the time they tell us exactly whats strong and I can play it lol

[@hawks3109]

that's always been true. I've worked at 2 triple A studios. As far as the people doing the actual work, the engineers and artists and such, do care quite a bit. They take feedback to heart. I think from the outside no news sounds like bad news. But almost always the people in the company are constantly talking in and outside of work about how to improve things. As you said though, we are just people who have skills that match industry needs. Still, we are just people.

[@karole7345]

Phreak is just the face of riot if he didnt comply hed get fired

[@ichdu0014]

OMG Phreak ranting about powercreeping tier lists is so understandable considering his job description essentially reads "avoid powercreep" among other things xD

[@yoch5383]

Avoid powercreep Meanwhile release aurora,hwei, smolder and Ksante Yeah avoid power creep omegalul

[@InnsannaStories]

​@@yoch5383well, those are seperate teams and jobs

[@OceansDomain.]

@@yoch5383 I don't think Phreak make champs, i used to think Phreak had some bad takes (besides sayin crit marksman were fine BEFORE the huge crit buffs lmfao) but seems like he's reflected and became wiser in the game.

[@Manco1lol]

Riot gets sh*t on a lot whether it be devs or balancing or champs being "OP" - but they do a great job like this showing their true colors where they actually DO care and are knowledgeable. W Riot W LS W League community.

[@mortystraphouse5077]

Phreak needs to be fired hes a diamond support balancing the most popular game in the world from his solo q perspective.

[@TaconIStenen]

@@mortystraphouse5077holy fuck grow up

[@justAutism-jc5uo]

@@mortystraphouse5077 i would agree if there was anyone more competent in that piece of shit company. by riot standards he is one of the, if not the best

[@saesteelol6156]

@@mortystraphouse5077 yea he definitely wasnt a former pro on multiple games even before league and then a pro in league and then a caster for 8 years who has a full time job as if hes gonna have the time to grind for challenger. hes just a diamond shitter

[@podefunder]

@@mortystraphouse5077 He was masters 300 LP just last split, making him better than 99.8% of the League community. And there's much more to game balance than just high ranking, there are plenty of even higher ranked players working on balance. You think you know better, but the reality is that no matter what they do, there will be thousands crying online. Riot's balance team is far better than the vast majority I've seen, especially with how communicative they are (which is especially surprising given how absurdly toxic the community is!)

[@Akiozumi]

Also Phreak apologized for Senna being buffed too much when he was just trying to see what happens if she gets buffed is ridiculous. I think he doesn't have to apologize at all his Idea and Goal is reasonable this is just how working on a champ looks like.

[@niels64545]

they have more than enough resources to do extensive play tests + all of the data from PBE. That's far from "working on a champion". The numbers are beyond obvious and they still decide to ship the champion and see what happens. And only if they actually feel like it will they hotfix it, otherwise its going to stay for 2 weeks. What does him apologizing really do after they randomly decided to change a champion like that with completely unreasonable numbers for like the 100th time and excuse it with "oh, sorry, my bad"

[@ciaacho1]

"Soraka With a Gun" lives rent free in my head now and I'm not even mad.

[@lokgames6666]

@@niels64545 Playtest and PBE data does not matter lmfaooooo what are you saying

[@pesky2119]

​@@lokgames6666Would matter if riot devs had the brains to do something about it 😂 🤷‍♂️

[@avancecifer1112]

@@pesky2119What are they supposed to do to fix PBE when it’s designed to catch game breaking bugs and not balance

[@nicolarobatto7469]

i really like the industry/academia discourse i feel like ls is very focused on academia talk, with a broader and more long term view, while teams and pros are just industry that thinks in the short term. This contrast explains A LOT.

[@wardenxenon]

It would be super cool to have LS do another one where he brings some serious "pitches" of balances that he thinks should/shouldn't happen and then they go through the whole process together, sort of brainstorming challlenges or avenues that could work to balance it. Sort of a mock up of what would happen in balance offices. It would help give the community more insight into the depth and breadth of possibilities of outcomes in game balance. Plus maybe LS could plant a seed or 2....

[@NewUser000NewUser]

LS is doing such a good job at not arguing and simply asking questions. Making sure to be able to have more discussions like these, wich are important

[@MrLeothedrummer]

But when is Multiplayer Practice tool finally coming? It would increase the level of play like tenfold...

[@xCLiCH3E]

multiplayer practice tool? you mean summoner's rift? xD

[@removeprotos6683]

@@xCLiCH3E yeah, summoner's rift that doesn't require 5/10/20 mins of preparation to test specific ingame scenarios or simple mechanics with multiple champs involved

[@MrLeothedrummer]

@@xCLiCH3E Don't act stupid. The ability to instantly play out different mid/endgame scenarios over and over again is incredibly valuable. Insane scrimming tool for pro play and great for new players that can be coached by their friends.

[@mafioso_nicho]

@@xCLiCH3E you must be beyond problematic mentally to even write a comment like that sarcastically or non-sarcastically. psychiatry isn't a bad thing to look into

[@kenneth_romero]

@@MrLeothedrummer be really cool if people could have save states of the game for minions/tower positions and allow people to also practice wave management more.

[@Dyna1One]

I know NA is declining but it’s crazy to me as someone who just moved from EU to the west coast that there’s no NA West server, the ping is laughable for a competitive game.

[@aceguy1234]

I agree with Phreak so much about the Z tier inflation. I think S tier is an infrequently hit tier on its own. Like I'm not sure a single champion in the game at the moment should be considered S tier. There's no Meta Knight, there's no Lando-T, there's no Tearlaments...maybe Nasus at the moment seems overtuned but he's an inherently hamstrung champion. I get Z tier is like a branding thing at this point but it's very stupid, like Phreak said a Z-tier champion should mean like the Nexus explodes at the start of the game.

[@sonagi98]

There are a lot of champions that are considered S tier based off of their stats. S tier champs aren't based off of just "this champ just feels strong when I lost against it"

[@Nikola-V]

Lillia, Ivern, MF, Jhin, Leona, Rell.

[@143tg]

@@Nikola-V bruh you cant even make an argument for half of those champions being above maybe S-.

[@subscribetopizzatheonlyrea7322]

If lando t fell under that definition of z tier it would have been banned to ubers (unless you are talking vgc)

[@ph8808]

@@Nikola-Vonly Mf is Z

[@MrEvilsparrow]

The way both Freak and Phrox actively listens whenever LS is talking, is soooooo underated. They're both passionate and empathetic; love it

[@JMQA1]

Fun fact - S is actually a grade Japan gives in their school curriculum. "S" is short for Exceptional.

[@karole7345]

Fun fact Japan doesnt use english

[@Number9Robotic]

It's funny that a lot of times I do feel mad at the balance/design teams for how they handle the game and a lot of bone-headed decisions, and yet despite my instinct being to scapegoat Phreak for being behind them, every time he discusses balance and explains the context, he's always surprisingly cogent and understanding. I really do appreciate talks like this giving transparency for the inner workings of the game and the logic behind them -- even when I don't agree with them, it's always a treat to see folks behind this behemoth of a game attempting to surmount this unwinnable situation of "perfect balance" and learn what they're attempting to do to maintain it.

[@Rizvi365]

Ya I used to watch his patch updates a lot when I had more time so I was happy he got on the balance team because of how much he cared and thought about it .. But I also knew he might be headstrong and do some wild batshit stuff that no one is prepared for or wants 😂

[@AngelOfTraps]

the world needs more Phreak + LS content

[@herpdiederper]

Fantastic video, love hearing the perspectives of Riot gameplay leads but also I would love to hear from other areas of Riot and other prevalent players. Please make more of these!

[@nc1651]

This was well worth my time to watch. Would love to see this more regularly.

[@Raiko01]

"Im the guy that gives corki 3 ad" is such a funny way to put it

[@bluebilberry]

The ping question was excellent LS -- thanks so much for asking it. (I play at a steady 80-5 ping on the NA server using a cable connection, even though I am on the NA continent.) And, I really can tell when I am facing a player who is closer to the server. Reviewing the devs responses, it became quite clear that to me that they prefer to balance it in favour of the low ping regions (which explains part of my frustrations) -- and meant that I was going to be treated as an outlier by the balance team (again revealing that they are a bit more data-driven as opposed to experience-driven). I found this especially insightful. Also, after going through the entire video, looking for subtexts, I found myself noticing that the two Riot devs consistently treated the adcs as largely being in a vacuum (sans supports) - which I also found totally fascinating. (In the back of my head, I suspect that this might explain the early season nerfs for supports and rise of the Warmog meta.) Incidentally, with the exception of Phroxon's discussion relating to one tricks early on, it was especially notable that one had to wait until roughly the 43rd minute mark before the presence of supports (i.e., Senna) were even addressed. Great work, LS.

[@v3rlol]

It's important to add another letter to the tier list for every 100 years of Riots collective game design

[@Noxsolum]

Really solid content, Game development is probably the least understood thing among gamers and shows like this is great for educating!

[@Majiger]

You love to see it! Would be awesome to make this a more frequent talk show.

[@stevieflyineasy]

The conversation around balancing adcs is hilarious when they brought back static shiv, it's almost like we have seen this before

[@ethandomaki5496]

As a Sona player I had to quit during the senna patch. Good to know our balance team is apologetic

[@AramSupport]

great content, thanks LS and team! My thoughts on the balance of the game are that i feel the game will just never get any balance and always be so hard to balance IF you ALWAYS change various aspects sectors of the game (items, runes, individual champs, riff changes, xp changes, and even objevtives over the years) I feel as long as you are always changing these things you can never really find a balance state, as logically all pieces are always being changed, with ripple effects over the course of weeks, months and years. i think some parts of the game need to be "set it stone" that way it will be easier to choose the best aspects and sectors of the game to "fiddle around with".

[@strajke_ofc2487]

So basicly they didnt say anything relevant for AD assassins basicly they said we dont know, its hard, we dont care KEKW

[@LadyMouzon]

Really great conversation LS. Thanks for helping to bring this kind of content to the community.

[@Lengari]

I love the answer on the question between low and high elo. It was a point that LS always made over the last years and never accepted that balance also matters in lower elo brackets. I may be an emerald noob but even I know the difference playing a champion with 55% wr and 45%...

[@aircatcher6891]

What is the difference between playing 55% win rate versus 45% then?

[@Malmonte09]

"Pro" and "elite" have figured out the game. How can regular players figure out the game if it changes every month?

[@HanyuuHOLO]

Really cool conversation, hope to see more

[@CJjani]

Great so see a discussion like this!

[@Akiozumi]

Is Phreak crying when LS brings up Assassins in Proplay? :0 what happen?

[@Rampage18]

Probably allergies

[@ryugaroxas]

if u know, u know

[@cyber.sylvie]

thinking about the balancing for low/high elo question, as an unengaged silver player i can say that i dont really notice changes unless they are huge. to me it feels like variance based on how well my opponents react to what i do, and vice versa, creates so much chaos that its impossible to pinpoint exactly what causes my wins and losses outside of mistakes. i play ashe, kai'sa, and mf, all champs that see frequent patch changes, but whether i win or lose always feels most dependent on the division im in. in SilverIV & III it feels like free wins and in Silver I i have to play the best game of my life or get carried for every win. if i reviewed my games maybe that would change but as it is relative skill feels orders of magnitude more impactful than anything else to the point where i just dont notice anything else. even things like matchup feels like a non-factor when i can approach every lane the same exact way and get above a 50% win rate (in low silver) by banking on my opponent not executing the gameplay that makes the matchup hard or just inting their lead away even if they do. its hard to ever say to myself that my buffed q got me that kill when the enemy completely trolled their positioning.

[@theduker5926]

"a silver player now is better than a silver player in 2012" does that i am im climbing? 😂

[@utopia19876]

You are parallel temporal climbing if it’s worth anything. 😅

[@demontime9490]

Relative to yourself,yes. Relative to the rest of the community,no 😅

[@EpicDBagger]

I don’t even know if I’m totally convinced that this is true.

[@PhanteonOP]

@@EpicDBagger are you serious? look at any challanger game or pro game from season 1-3 lol

[@143tg]

maybe not climbing but improving for sure. If you have been a rank for many seasons chances are you are still improving, its just that rank progressively gets a bit more challenging every season as people get better and learn. So dont feel discouraged, chances are you arent even playing enough games to see results

[@frankieoliveras1271]

I personally would like to see less move speed in the game, tankier objectives, and longer death timers (especially early game)

[@Nokomak]

Can't help but notice that assassin point LS makes is first met by the mention that LeBlanc is in pro play. This only proves LS's point though. Sure she exists. As a counter to Corki. An external factor. Other than that LB doesn't offer much. Otherwise it was because statikk shiv gave her a split push boost. You really only solidified his argument. I don't think she's viable as she doesn't just have to get a lead and fed to be viable... She has to get extraordinarily fed beyond realistic measure.

[@oliverquinns8551]

Please, allow me to one shot Adc going mid as a mage.

[@nolo5220]

no

[@killeralx2007]

Mages go bot now in 2024 ; APC bot is the meta past years ; and ADC /Tanks mid & top

[@PongLenis-zw8kv]

This is so cool and informative. Thanks for uploading and doing this

[@keepitjazzy6972]

I slowed this video down to 85% and now it sounds much better 🤙🏽

[@OminousSlush]

Z tier can also basically be when there’s tier 0. Kinda like the beginning or end of it all

[@NicitelSvetu]

Thank you, Phreak, after your balancing I was finally able to escape this game's clutches after 12 years of addiction.

[@lucasabaraujo]

That was great! Thank you for doing this!

[@aircatcher6891]

The thing that stood out to me was Leblanc being pro play viable. I think "viable" and "played in pro play" are being conflated in this case. The champ shouldn't be functional in pro play between two top 10 in the world teams. But, it gets played anyway regardless of context.

[@leorikh]

Amazing discussion. Thanks for this!

[@Soulthief-rw9fj]

great content love these discussion formats

[@129lolyt]

what a great conversation

[@charleswilson5773]

You know.. cdr changes are awful as fuck. 2 minutes cd Rs get as low as 25 seconds, towers are way way way way way too squishy. You can't leave your 0/5 opponent in lane for 5 seconds because he takes every tower and inhib within 5 seconds of hitting them. These are the biggest issues in my opinion. But also, who at riot thinks defensive items need to have the best aggressive stats??? Zhonyas has 120 AP. The most defensive item is tied in AP with rabadons. This is everywhere, the item with the defensive stat, active, or spell shield, whatever, do more for your aggressive stats, than the aggressive items do.

[@fazebooquifius3186]

I can answer the zhonyas question for you. Giving zhonyas a ton of AP locks it to mages as a class by making it really bad for champs that don't want ap. There was a few patches a year or two ago where junglers had really low gold and exp income, which meant that even tank junglers would be quite squishy. The solution became to buy zhonyas since the active is so strong. Riot didn't like that a defensive option for mages was being picked up by champs like Jarvan and Nautilus, and the best way to make it less viable for them is to increase the price and compensate the item with stats these champs don't want, like raw AP.

[@torri776]

The game is definitely much more balanced than before. The reason why that is pertains to the fact that about half the cast feels perfectly playable and even quite strong so the meta isn't as well defined as before. Back then, anyone could abuse 10 broken champions who were always better than everybody else, but that is not the case anymore. Though this did have the unintended effect of making champions like Riven, Shaco, Gragas and Tryndamere seemingly unplayable. These champs can now only win if their team is hard winning, and agency has hit a record low to compensate this newfound balance.

[@MrFancyGamer]

phreak gets too much hate, the game is pretty balanced, does it always feel that way? no, player variance is usually the main culprit imo (barring some ocasional outliers)

[@alexanderatanasov5837]

Yes, it's really balanced. Anyone can one-shot anyone with small or no counterplay, so I call that a good balance :)

[@schmidth]

​@@alexanderatanasov5837damage is still too high in general for my taste, but champion balance is not bad tbh

[@vitorfernandesa]

​@@schmidthlmao

[@YtFoff]

Most ( and reasonable) people dislike or flamed Phreak for his personal behaviour and attitude, like in the "just type Karthus R" video, not his competence, that kind of sass and arrogance does not sit well when you are the face of balance for the game

[@secretdectiveacc]

It's balanced and fun to play until you play an assassin and u get sht on in lane, can play a bit during midgame and gets out scaled

[@onam3000]

The Phreak Z tier thing at the end is funny but so true

[@RadagastTheBrwn]

I have maintained for a long time that league is way better balanced than people complain

[@pocketblue]

It is, and the general criticism being so all over the place does not help. That's why the solutions sometimes arrive YEARS later, which is ridiculous, but kiiinda makes sense

[@Brayness]

Phroxzon's lectures from Season 3 are the only reason I stayed interested in playing this game

[@Deadknight67]

You need your nickname to start with "Phr" to be a designer at Riot.

[@TimEnjoysGnocchis]

Toplaners are in an awful spot and nobody is adressing it. I feel that the game is now balanced around extremes and everyone but top laners are happy. Midlaners go full dmg, adcs go full dmg. Pick anything- anything works. You can simply buy fulll dmg. As a toplaner however you are in a tough place: you can pick a full tank and be useless/ no game impact or you can pick a bruiser. The second you pick a brusier however you get hardcountered instantly/ 1 shot be everybody. Because there is so much dmg in the game (from bot and mid) that being "a little" tanky is pointless now. This results in toplaners having to counterpick/ play disgusting champs to win lane and have a game impact that way. This means: Playing Tanks feels awful on top; Playing bruisers feel awful on top. That 80% of the champ pool feeling awful. Therefore top is the one holding the bag of shit after all the changes.

[@killeralx2007]

Thats called Meta ; Duo Queue / Flex Meta ; cause in Solo Queue Toplaners is the go-to to win games fast & Cheese as support/jungler to Prio top early & snowball the push . But when Solo Queue Teamwork is almost non-existent and everyone is adapting 1vs9 playstyle ; teamwork role areas & champions that rely a lot on teamfights & teamplay are left out

[@zenkozenko4989]

As an idiot sandwich all I have ever wanted was a similar bar that the other execute champs like Cho have for Veigar. Like yeah, would make Veigar easier to play- but it would also inspire counter play (Vei could ult me and kill me, should I back or keep playing aggressive/I know his ulti cdr) and also, I swear seeing those thresholds make me act tf up.

[@hanshysher6266]

IMO the answer is no, if an strat is working and still has reasonable counterplay, should not be removed.

[@tjniday6098]

I'm a little late on this comment as I was busy having multiple surgeries, but my first thought after reading the title of this video is "how would they know. They do nothing to balance this game"

[@Schizophrenic_irl]

yeah but when do we get client fixed

[@eddyirons]

I miss assasins in pro play. assasin vs assasin is most fun to watch

[@killabee8242]

i dont think we will ever see that again. in order for assssins to be viable in pro they need to be broken for solo q cause they will trive more in messy environment its always like that, if assasins is balanced for pro play and high elo...they will stomp low elo solo q .i remeber season 4 we saw regularly in pro play ,zed taloln lb , fizz , yasuo, but also mages like syndra,orianna, lissandra where also strong at that time...u had feeling that u could win on many picks riot just care too much about solo q these days ...they will never let that happen again

[@jameshuang2677]

When they look at win rates do they separate smurfs from the regular players? Eg high elo smurfs often fly with close to 100% winrate below diamond, potentially spiking win rates in low elo.

[@apollosungod6673]

the more champs they add, the harder balance will become overall, but honestly they need to add a few more bans in competitive play.

[@TheGeneralMod]

Phreak and Phroxzon have my respect for doing this. In this past it felt like Rioters would hide from the community and their frustrations (I do understand why XD)... But these 2 got some MAMMOUTH sized nuts on them😅

[@drjamaymay405]

riot devs are the most active in their respective communities imo. No other competitive game does this kinda stuff this frequently.

[@lostfisheu]

I don't think people cherish Phreak/Phroxzon being this open with changes and talking back to the community through KZbin and Twitter enough. Riot did balance changes in the past and then kept total silence about the reason why they do certain and people just had to guess I wish devs in other games would do the same as these 2 are doing and it become more of a norm to do. Loved the ep tho, hope to see more of it in the future

[@aghileslounis]

If I understand correctly, there is no mathematical correctness involved at all. Isn't balance attained using data science, training ML models...? Why should we care about low/high elo, Korea or non-deterministic comparisons? Balance is pure math. We should balance the game, not the players. I'm I missing something or? I feel like they have no idea what they are doing and just trying things depending on how PLAYERS think the game should be played. Even pros don't know what's the best thing to do or to build. LS has been correct about pro itemization for YEARS, it took a decade to see some pros starting to really consider itemization seriously, so if you are balancing around players, you'll always end up with a terrible balance state.

[@mrwater2033]

I wonder if it's possible to lower the ping as low as KR or similar to it on other servers lik EU/NA etc? or maybe that's never going to happen, lol.

[@Alo0oys]

I love these kind of videos even when I stopped playing SR due to frustrations beyond balance. Good work LS!

[@tinecchi3648]

One thing I just really want answered is, why when so many adc are meta are the actual counters not buffed? Why are champs like azir and ori buffed back even though this was a opportunity to bring so many champs into pro. For example zoe. Any assassin. High range mages like xerath. I think it’s a bit sad league right now feels more like a rotation.

[@Grumpisaurus]

Xerath isn't ever likely going to be meta. Any champ that has only skillshots isn't going to appear at the highest level of play, unless it's numbers are absurd, or it provides other things besides damage

[@tinecchi3648]

@@Grumpisaurus damn bro because zeri is literally an adc with skillshot. Her whole kit doesn’t work if you don’t hit skillshots. You also realize I said champs you could buff into the meta. And not the current state of the champ. Cmon use your brain first before tipping some Reddit counter argument xD

[@tinecchi3648]

@@dumpsterplayer2700 the point is azir has been meta forever. Do you not understand that there is a fundamental issue if the actual counters to adc are not viable at all? How is that that complicated to understand what my point is. If your argument is how bad azir is, why are you not asking them for ryze who has been in a worse state for years. Defending a azir buff in 2024 is crazy to me, because there is 50 other champs at least I would adjust before touching that. And like you said the champ is viable if your good. We don’t need another year of azir. It’s way more interesting when players like caps and chovy completely dominate on it without him beeing meta

[@Grumpisaurus]

@@tinecchi3648 zeri has dashes, slows, and a rather absurd potential to kite. Huh. It's almost as if I said that a champ w/ skillshots needs things besides just damage to be effective in pro play. Xerath has none of those things, so unless you're expecting riot to rework the champ, again, there is no chance of him being in the meta. I think you should be using your brain next time

[@tinecchi3648]

@@Grumpisaurus and that’s why zeri is so great in soloq because her own kit allows her to fully unleash her potential. Check her winrate and how terrible she is on her own. In pro play everything gets drafted so she can pump max damage while the team around her ccs. Are you watching pro play with closed eyes? It’s never zeri doing anything alone. Holy shit your stupid beyond belief xD

[@HAZE_WoR]

thats GOD TIER !!!!!!! thanks

[@NewUser000NewUser]

I love Phreak, him and the client being broken since Vanguard are whats keeping me away from LoL. Hes so good at gaslighting.

[@constantinvalidol5472]

Support & ADC need big nerfs. And no, don't scapegoat "le sololane marksmen", botlane in general is fucked up.

[@doriangray8032]

Smolder is same for a long time (4months folks) and no one played him... maybe but his counters had changes buffs/nerfs, items are changed like a lot (his items were shit for a while but buffed like 3 times i a row) etc. he is saying half of truth and cherry picking. LS, for most of the time, panders his incompetence so he'll feel better

[@devilix123987]

I hadn't checked playrates for a while, but just hearing that Smolder was dropped AT ALL was mindboggling to me. The champ has not been bad ONCE since his release, he's absolutely nuts. It's just so weird that people read *insert champ nerf* as "champ is bad now". Whatever nerfs they hit Smolder with were far from enough to stamp him down.

[@doriangray8032]

@@devilix123987 but he said he didn't get buffs for a long time and was still strong (14.14. was not long ago), I was referring why he was strong then, or in other words "for a long time"

[@reinoutrenes4129]

Didnt watch the video yet but I feel like the game is actually pretty balanced atm (i havent played much last 2 months) i just dont love the meta that the game is in

[@hamburgerlover9825]

One thing I have found different about game balance this year is that it’s less structured. For a while now Riot has followed this pattern of being more experimental the first half of the year and then honing everything in the second half of the year so that worlds meta is a) similar to summer and b) not full of op champions. For the last few weeks I’ve been thinking about how boring worlds is going to be with this double adc, no mages no assassins meta we have going on. There’s still a chance it’ll be awesome and a new stuff will be developed during the tournament like in 2018 but I just have a feeling this will be one of the less memorable worlds. And I also don’t want a case of 2022 where the teams that won summer finals were playing zeri and zeri was gutted when they got to worlds. Or 2015 where there were suddenly a handful of extremely op champs. All the balance changes this year are fine and nothing is worse than it has been, but I have noticed it doesn’t seem like riot is balancing stuff in this big picture leading up to worlds anymore, they’re making drastic changes as needed. maybe I’m just used to what I’m used to and it’ll be an explosive meta. I have a weird feeling this will go down with 2017 as a slow and boring world championship.

[@hamburgerlover9825]

That being said, sudden balance changes definitely change the results of worlds. Speaking of that 2022 tournament, if Zeri wasn’t nerfed then Gen G would have been playing their meta. They would have probably beaten DRX in quarters, which means we don’t get the best series in professional league history. So maybe these things work out and it’ll make some magic happen this year

[@thiamond3]

9:50 MELEE MENTIONED

[@strike4489]

Great talk! This is the content i love to watch, deep analysis of the game or a back and forth with the devs about several design choices/philosophies. More stuff like this, please!

[@iwakuralain3064]

Assassins are just melee carries but they're supposed to be squishy for some reason. WIthout HOTS levels of build restriction they'll never make sense as a group because all of their kits naturally reward building tanky.

[@user-yr9sf2yr3n]

Worst problem in league 'balance' is absence of voice comms. Never playing it again if I cant coordinate in a fuckin team game. Insuffurable experience for anyone wanting to play a game thats not only mashing buttons

[@killeralx2007]

If its true what you said at 34:00 - Balancing ADCs and Metashifts . How come bottom lane has no place for ADC & ADC is pushed out of bottom role / and in Solo Queue the highest PickRate bot roles are APC : like Ziggs/Brand ; Its not called ADC role ; Riot changed ADC into Bottom Role ; because they wanted to experiment and create more cheese strategy with 0 Role Identity & Champion Identity .... I do not see it ; Garen mid ? Nasus Mid ? Adc TOP ? Apc Bot ? Yasuo/Poppy meta master+ Elo Bottom role ? Where is the Role Identity in Solo Queue there??? Last i remember Riot : ADC stands for Attack Damage Carry = Where is the Attack Damage Carry in ZIggs/ Brand Mage Spellcasters Ability Power Carry ???? Dont use ADC as an Meme where is not even used as an ADC in the game . Change Bottom Role = to ADC role if want to consider Bottom = ADC Too many Cooks in the kitchen - makes the game lose its Indentity & Roles Champions

[@wehad4319]

1:00:57 s as a rank originates from the japanese grading system and that's why it's in dmc too i think. I'm not sure tho.

[@CinCinAttic]

this was amazing.

[@Qyr3]

Did the small smolder buff to his q happen, before his playrate rised?

[@bongobingo7631]

buff meele asssins midlane make roaming stronger.

[@cloudson3886]

I think Senna should be able to bind towards an ally as passive and just not be able to buy supp item, but if she last hits, both her and adc get full gold if adc last last hits both get full gold too, delete stacks and make both characters heal for % of dmg delt by each other.

[@jeswinmeslie7204]

adding to my list of daily prayers thanking god you don’t work for riot

[@mcELINER]

Wouldnt senna be really balanced if instead of crit passive have heal and shield power %?

[@Nokomak]

The thing phroxzen says about academia.. I do that. Just ask my wife as she gets mad I spoil the game based on the draft halfway through. I know there's a lot of people like that. They just don't get much attention. I don't believe your point good sir.

[@leonsixt2744]

Champions in general do way too much damage. I hate nothing more than hybrid building (damage and tankiness) being the most optimal build on every champion. Like 5 Tank items one dmg item or the other way around is so unbelievably boring and unskilled. The removal of so many mechanics and the regress of active items and bs interactions make the game feel very clunky and plain. Counters still are too strong, yes they should be favored but god is some stuff just almost unplayable, especially in toplane, makes it very frustrating to play. There is definitely something wrong when we see these plain boring champions being picked almost every time in pro play while the high skill/high input champions are just seemingly never worth the risk these days. How boring is it to still see Maokai, to see Garen mid, to see KSante top... Make the game fun again and less frustrating.

[@arthurmarshall6825]

I hear what they are saying about assassins in pro, but I always thought the reason why we don't see assassins is because of exhaust. I remember recently seeing Zed in LCS, I was so hype for it but the other team had 2 or 3 exhaust spells. Every single time Zed went in, exhaust so he either died or had to flee. Every time. I wonder if assassins had a way to briefly be immune to exhaust, would we see more assassins in pro play?

[@themonkeys96]

This is going to sound very weird, but you'd just start seeing Sona counterpick. Her W empowered auto is an exhaust-esq debuff. In general, coordination is detrimental to an assassin's odds of winning. Being that pro is the most coordinated format, they likely will always suffer to be performant.

[@Microtardz]

To add to the other guy. Lulu. Lulu is a hard counter to assassins. There is absolutely nothing they can do about polymorph. And even if they do somehow bait the cooldown out, she still has ult. And if they bait that out, *THEN* she has exhaust. Modern enchanters are too good at disengage. Even Soraka will just aoe silence where the assassin wants to go and the assassin is as good as dead once he's silenced.

[@OminousSlush]

This is currently happening with Kennen. Anytime the champ is on screen/team the team takes exhaust. Sometimes the tank top against him is forsaking flash and going tp exhaust like ksante into kennen or ornn. Insane

[@arthurmarshall6825]

@@Microtardz Yeah but the current meta is engage supports with Rell and Leona getting first picked often. I think its okay that some supports can counter assassins as long as its not ALL supports with one spell. What supports are good in the meta rotates and we also don't want assassins to be so good that you could first pick them all the time.

[@mafin8874]

Wouldn't be better now to totally remove trinkets, make that u can buy only 1 pink ward to make game less predcitable and more bloody. Nowdays teams have some much information that it is changing slowly into chess games

[@killeralx2007]

Innovate does not exist in League of Legends - if you try to innovate & practice in Solo Queue - you get Ostracized & trolled by your teammates because do not like your picks for : 45:46 Fearless Draft and Innovation . And more innovation can lead to balance break too ... as we see what happens now - ADC is pushed as toplane meta / APC is pushed in bottom lane meta / Tanks & Bruisers are pushed into Midlane Meta ??? There is no Role Identity ; if want to remake the game from scratch from 15 years ago and break all its systems & Champion Role Identity

[@iamherpderp]

Smolder is stupid broken

[@asnipersfate]

Yet they are gutting Zeri's only way to trade in lane next patch. I predict 2-3% winrate drop.

[@kavertx9167]

So if they wanted to make the game more rewarding for assassins and early game powered champions, why not revert the durability changes and make assassins like Talon have actual pressure at level 2 as he used to? It's a really simple change that removes this unnecessary cushion needed by less skilled players to undermine the importance of early game.

[@oshermdaddy2058]

Based phreak

[@Resil27021]

what if instead of watching this i just went grrrrrrr

[@harrisali663]

As much as I respect you LS, I highly disagree about league being balanced. Currently in pro-play, games are hitting 40min timers because smolder exists and riot is unable to make it so adcs are viable bot lane but not mid lane. If they either revert the durability patch or buff certain mid lane items, we'd see this problem solved. The state of Solo q is a joke rn. You can duo with players 2 ranks below you, (i.e diamonds can't duo with plats) yet if you play solo, there is often a chance where you will have a plat player in a diamond lobby who will solo lose the game just because he gets stomped by the diamond enemy later. Supports have had too much impact for 2 years now but cuz Phreak abuses that role he will not nerf it.

[@nikolakolev7264]

Oh no, a 4k HP talon one shot me, boo hoo...meanwhile Orn, Mundo, etc. So its ok if tanks burst, but assassins no?

[@samuelzachary8723]

imo the problem with assassins is the idea that they need to oneshot. most assassins are played because of their high agency and 1v1 threat. but its a real issue when they cant 1v1 most champs in the game. imo they should lean into thier trickyness and macro focus, and less on one shot no counterplay. I dont think people are asking for this. assassins are more fun when they are focused on outplaying and outmacroing. and being durable and able to 1v1 a bruiser tank if you play well enough would be fun. right now assassins suck becasue they get stat checked by at least 2 champs in most games, and have a n entire calss dedicated to keep you from assassinating the targets you can fight.

[@Bladius_]

I remember in battlebond, the character Croak was an Assassin but he was pure hit and run. He'd jump out stab you, poison you and run, then do it over and over until you were low then go in for an execute. In that game, a pure battle arena moba, it worked really well because you HAVE to fight; in league fighting, in of itself, isn't how you win it's a means to an end. Issue with league is, assassins being too good at that kind of play just means they fish for a kill, if it fails you can never catch them. I think the only thing more frustrating than a one shot for most players, is champs like Zed that are incredibly hard to punish when they fuck up. I guess the idea is the assassin should blow me up, but if they all-in and I live, they shouldn't walk away. Of note, if you're equal power bruiser are supposed to beat assassins, because they're outside the range of your burst rotation by building Hp, if you beat them by building fighter that's inherently not okay.

[@Microtardz]

In my opinion, assassins have to be able to carry games. They basically need to be ADCs. Scaling champs that need tons of resources. Samira and Nilah are the closest things to what I think assassins should be. Except they should be way more single target focused instead of having game winning AoE abilities. Slark, Phantom Assassin, Templar Assassin, Nyx Assassin. These are good archetypes for what an assassin should be. And the thing is. They're cores. They're carries. The problem with League is riot hard insists on the role called "AD Carry" to be a ranged bot laner and nothing else. Which is understandable, because the community cry babies hard af the moment it's anything else like Yasuo.

[@secretdectiveacc]

Adc players were complaining about their role because support was too impactful and you were team dependent, also durability patch made getting a solo kill on midlane rly hard, it's boring to afk farm 24/7

[@killeralx2007]

ADC has no place in bottom role anymore ; in Solo Queue ; probably in Premades Duo Queue /Flex Teams ; but in Solo Queue ; ADC is non-existent ; because support difference can lead the way bottom role is played in more then 70% of Solo Queue games - You now see ADC`s trying to adapt and play either Top or Mid role where they are not influenced by Support/Jungler early game & Drake Tempo minute 5+ . IF Adc falls behind its almost impossible for them to recover without help ; help in league ? When KDA flex & score is soo high SOlo Queue players prefer to Ostracize teammates & instead of teamwork & understand Pros & Cons on champons Role Weakness & Power Spikes ???? I started having 70% winrate Solo Queue as bot APC in Dia-Master elo ; as a Solo player ; but if i play ADC i drop down to Plat ? Explain that . And that has nothing to do with skill alone ; when Support makes such an insane difference in bottom role ( if premade with a Support that knows you ; a.k.a friend ; you notice significat winrate on ADC from 40% to 50% average ; cause solo queue supports nowadays play as 1vs3 Bot Role not as 2vs2 & trust teammates at how Toxic & Trolling Solo Queue has become) ... If you look at lol analytics ; the regions have 40-45 % winrate as ADC bottom role & they have 50-55% winrates as APC bottom role for entire community Pick & Winrate ??? ADC is not the problem . The problem is ADC is a role that relies on your entire team to get you passed Early game & reach Mid-game-> Late Game faster on items scale. There are champions in this game that have Early Power Spikes / Mid Game Power SPikes / Late game PowerSpikes ; its called Champion & Role Identity ; which seems that league players have forgotten. I will even give you a quick Example of that : Leona -> counters Miss Fortune & most ADC bottom lane ; because her level 2 powerspike can instant ADC and its pretty tanky with lots of sustain & CC to lock ADC / Late game minute 25-30+ Miss Fortune can 1-2 tap a full build Leona 6 items with 400+ armor & Thornmail ; why is that ? its because ADC scale with items ; Damage & Crit & Attack Speed depending on situation & scenarios of games playing with & against champions meta

[@EndeavorEUW]

Am i tripping or is Phreak trynna tell us something with that death stare and head movement. He also looks a little bit scared same with the boss.