Lucy Gray Baird: Victim or manipulator?

[@princesadelaos]

it's crazy to me that people think she is a manipulator just bc that's snow's impression of her, snow who is an unrelieable narrator. SNOW of all people

[@taylorknight5702]

I think a better word is performer, I don't think she was ever just being her full self.

[@glory4645]

I don't think people mean it as bad thing but like doing it to survive, she wasn't strong or had surviving skills like Katniss. Also Snow is what he is but that doesn't mean he is completely wrong, only that he twisted things for worse.

[@Stay_Zerose]

She was manipulative, but she did it to survive not out of malice, the two aren't exclusive. Lucy Gray does manipulate snow but he does the same to her. It is dangerous to see any Character in this book as purely good or bad, instead we should view them both as a product of strong political ideology and unfortunate circumstance.

[@somersault1123]

Idk. She does come off as a alt right demagogue with how much she wants to be free.

[@morningglory.2]

@@somersault1123 There is a gaping wide difference between wanting to be free from an authoritarian government and the conservative individualist desire for minimal government and you need to learn that difference .

[@Matt-id5mi]

she was just doing what she had to to survive

[@deborahtheexplorer]

Agreed😎

[@Kaloy92]

Reminds me of Isabella.

[@maddielopez8625]

So was Snow, one could argue.

[@jacobsquare4812]

​@maddielopez8625 No, it can't be argued. He had his survival when he was in the woods going off on his own journey with Lucy Gray. At that point, he reveals exactly what he wants, which isn't survival. He wants the extravagance and prestige of a capitol life. So he breaks trust with her and attempts to kill her. And she could tell he was going to try when she saw his reaction to the guns.

[@OghenekomeMaseli]

@@jacobsquare4812perfect response, I’m the books you can see how much he hated being in district 12

[@efghd2624]

I think the reason she gets seen as a master manipulator by some people is because she doesn't fit the idea of the "perfect victim". Some people really do think that the only people who can truly be called victims are the ones that suffer in silence, and see anyone that fights back or makes self-serving decisions as "manipulators". Its such a strange and unhelpful view that makes people only empathize with people who are docile enough in their eyes, which isn't really how most victims are in real life. Lucy was doing what she had to in order to survive, and its a shame she had to.

[@Bcubed2011]

Exactly, she’s not the typical “damsel in distress”. She has survival instincts but is still misused and a victim.

[@irondragonmaiden]

If anything, many victims become survivors and learn to navigate the world in a way to try to prevent further victimization. It doesn't always work, because systemic issues are stronger than individual wits, but that's what usually happens.

[@tiffanypersaud3518]

Exactly.

[@CuteKnight98]

Well it’s also Snow’s perspective of her we see… His paranoia and eventual jealousy also fuels the narrative and idea that she may or may not be genuine. That she is deadly, and dangerous. And she does keep secrets in the books that lead you to wonder about her true thoughts or feelings and motivations.

[@JabamiLain]

That's a VERY messed up mindset. Even if she was manipulative, she was clearly a better person than Snow. Snow did it for power lust. She did it merely to survive.

[@ramo4474]

Can't a woman be anything else besides a victim or a manipulator? Are we really at the end of the year 2023 unable to see women as anything inbetween innocent maiden and evil witch? Lucy Gray was a kid who saw a lot and grew up quick. But she was kind. To animals, to Jessup, to her Covey. She kills when she is forced to (which is the whole point of the horror of the hunger games anyways). She is an artist, a hippie, a nomad and a free spirit. She was no master mind manipulator. And she was as much of a victim as any other reaped kid. With the exception of being a survivor. Which we've learned from the original trilogy that is a wreched fate as well. She played the audience just like Peeta did. The only reason Peeta is smart and charming and Lucy is omnious and untrustworthy is because of who is narrating. Katniss who loves Peeta (even though she doesn't know it yet) versus Snow, narcissism and paranoia personified.

[@jacobsquare4812]

You put it perfectly.

[@jacobsquare4812]

Remember, though, that Katniss initially didn't trust Peeta, thinking much the same as Snow, that she was being used in some game of his. Part of the resolution of Katniss' character is that she learns to trust after a life in survival mode. Snow went in the exact opposite direction.

[@ramo4474]

@@jacobsquare4812 yes, first person narrators, by definition, are subjective and unreliable. However, Snow and Katniss are completely different levels of unreliable=))) Katniss distrusts Peeta for a very logical reason: he might be put in the situation where he has to kill her to save himself. And she is being kept in the dark by him and Haymitch regarding the extent to which Peeta cares about her and the lenghts he's willing to go to in otder to save her. SNOW on the other hand is a menace to society. Literally.

[@morningglory.2]

omg thank you for this comment I was literally JUST watching a video analysis on the white vs black swan perception of womanhood.

[@TheComicMaster1995]

@@jacobsquare4812I literally had this exact same thought In the beginning, both Katniss and Snow were not very trusting in order to survive. They both saw the world for the most part as black and white. The thing was Katniss was the only one to see how untrue that mindset was. Hope I didn’t end up repeating what you said, making this comment redundant.

[@MistarZtv]

The poem interpretation is beautiful. To me. She's both. She's a survivor. Like Tigris said. She did what she had to make ends meet. She's both the songbird and the snake. The snakes she uses being non poisonous symbolizes that while she performs and acts a certain way, she doesn't do it out of malice or pure selfishness the way Snow and Gaul uses poison. The poison that Snow gives her to use being white and powdered like snow is definitely intentional to show Snow trying to influence her values.

[@my.inherent.melody1818]

In the book snow doesn’t give her the rat poison only the powder box

[@emerald9194]

@@my.inherent.melody1818 He still gives her the idea of using poison, it’s just that he doesn’t have access to the actual poison in the zoo and she does. She chooses to go along with it, but it was his idea.

[@JKnight1316]

this made me sad to think in another timeline Tigris and Lucy would’ve gotten along 😢

[@AAAAHHHHhhH]

@@my.inherent.melody1818 I know it's been almost a year since you wrote this, but in the book, Lucy Gray also uses a poisonous rainbow snake to kill Treech

[@vanesasteves6922]

I think that making the ending "open" is soo more impactful to the characters story. Snow will have to live with "knowing" he killed his first love, he also killed freedom for control and that is such a key characteristic with him later on. But we, as an audience, get to feel the impact of her death and the hope that she's alive at the same time

[@amaracrow0501]

I think she was a survivor. To me the circumstances could have turned her into a victim but she made the best of the hand she was played and that takes courage and intelligence and a resilience that few have. While part of me has the head cannon that Lucy made it to 13 and gave birth to President Coin, that depicts a woman who grew bitter and let that bile infect her child. So the more I think on it the more I like to think that if Lucy did die, she was reincarnated as Katnis, and finished the circle.

[@ThePerksdeLeSarcasmeSiorai]

OR she secretly lived in the woods until she died of old age.

[@evangelinalbarosa]

I honestly prefer to think that she disappeared and is not at all connected to anything in Panem, just like the ghost in the song :)

[@nelonwa7754]

I don't see how Lucy would love in 13 and her colourful nature not influence the place. Especially Coin. Her being bitter and bile just seems so unnecessary cuz she's want to live and let live yk?

[@amaracrow0501]

@@nelonwa7754 remember coin lost her kid and husband to the epidemic that wiped out so much of 13. That would for sure explain some of the dour personality but I do agree. Its hard seeing Lucy living the spartan way 13 does. But it is odd that Coin knew how to push Snows buttons. Alternative head cannon...Lucy wrote everything down in a journal and passed during child birth. Which would serve the parentage theory and the reincarnation theory?

[@amaracrow0501]

@@evangelinalbarosa yeah, lol. I just don't like loose strings either and it can't be coincidence that snow knew how to push snows buttons so masterfully.

[@autisticnation7140]

The roses and milk line makes sense though. They are both ingredients for certain soaps. They own a goat. And wild roses would potentially be easily found in certain districts. Based on the geographical areas the book is based on. I read this as Lucy Gray talking about homemade soap

[@autisticnation7140]

It does show the difference in how language works between the Covey and Capital for Snow to assume that she means bathing in Luxury in a bath full of milk though. And is a good way to realize that her words mean things that Snow is unable to understand. And his beliefs about her hold a bias to it

[@walnutsrcool]

Great interpretation. I also felt it was strange because even if it was full milk, if it's a baby they don't need that much haha

[@autisticnation7140]

@@walnutsrcool Plus both Lucy Gray and Snow were alive before the war when there was a lot more abundance. And with the Covey traveling it's likely they would've played for some capital people too. The beautiful dresses do show the potential that they were wealthy or at least far more wealthy pre war. As it seems very unlikely they could purchase those dresses during the timeline of the book

[@miyannapittman5580]

Right, her mother died when she was young so at the time her mother would have been bathing her they were likely much better off

[@supriyaksinha]

I just realized this: Katniss and Lucy Gray parallel each other not because of the possibility that they may be related (which I think is probable tbh) but in the fact that they are just 16 or 17 year old girls. They are only special in the sense that they are survivors and they do whatever it takes to survive. They aren’t master manipulators, or people that act for the rebellion against the Capitol on purpose. Lucy Gray does what it takes to save herself and the Covey, and Katniss does the same for Prim and herself.

[@NeyamRye]

Exactly, they're young people doing what they need to

[@Yuval.Ronen2010]

You're right, but I would compare Lucy Gray to Peeta rather than Katniss, mainly because as we mentioned in the video, they are both performers and know how to manipulate the audience according to their interests. I would mainly compare their interviews, because they understood something very important: the Capitol wants entertainment. That's what's important to the people there, that's what makes a difference. So whether it's Lucy Gray singing, "exposing herself" to the audience with a personal song and getting all the sponsors for herself, or Peeta deciding to really expose himself and make a personal confession about Katniss, both know exactly how to make the audience feel certain emotions, and how to direct the audience in the direction they want. Lucy Gray wanted the audience to focus on her, her story and who she was, so she presented a so-called "character" who was similar to herself and very authentic, but also maintained a certain level of secrecy and distance in order to create interest in the Capitol with every piece of information that was revealed about her, probably as profound as her song in the interview. Peeta, on the other hand, didn't want everyone's eyes to focus on him, but rather on Katniss, and that's precisely why he revealed what he revealed. Peeta understood that he needed to build a story around Katniss, one that would create entertainment and interest for the Capitol, and that's exactly what he did. Both are performers.

[@anao9662]

Hi! With the milk bath thing, you don’t actually need to have fill an entire bath of milk, for a milk bath. You just add some milk to the bath water, no more then half a gallon, and even that’s would be a lot for a child’s milk bath. It’s a very common home remedy for children with rashes or bug bites but it’s usually mixed with oats and not roses. I always interpreted that as Lucy Grays family doing what little they could to keep her safe and clean. (Also the milk can be any kind, the covey do have a goat they milk but I can’t remember if the family had one when Lucy was young.)

[@Maanemand]

Snow and Lucy Gray have something in common! They are both the providers of their families, which obviously has taken a toll on young Snow - in the books, we experience a traumatised and stressed out young Snow who wants to live up to the ideals of his deceased father - he always has a need to please this mysterious figure / the lineage as a “Snow”. If we analyse Lucy Gray’s songs and what we get to know in the books, she is a provider in a similar manner, but she provides for those who are still left in her family / the Covey, not in order to be a satisfactory provider for her lineage. I suspect, as stated here, that it has taken a toll on her too. And they are both orphans, which I believe, is what makes them deeply connected - they mirror one another, they understand each other’s struggles. The difference is, Snow seems like he’s having an identity crisis because of this and especially when he goes to D12: Should he honour the Snow lineage or run away with Lucy Gray? Power versus love. Which eventually makes him pick power because love is such a strange concept to him. He thinks it’s for show, something you “fake” in order to survive and he expresses negative thoughts towards it in the end of the book. All of this stems from the trauma of being too young to have the role of the family provider. Now, as we don’t know anything from Lucy’s POV, we can only guess. I actually think she wanted to run away with Snow, to start over and come to terms with her (and his) trauma, but he ruins their chances. He is so intoxicated with trauma that she simply has to let him go. Sorry for the novel lengthy analysis. It may be flawed

[@Kinzclips]

There was a line where Lucy gray says something along the lines of “what makes him a victim makes me trash” about Billy Taupe. I read that as she went around with other guys for survival sake even though she was still loyal to him but he read that as Billy basically claimed he needed to cheat because he was a poor victim of someone who was so bad to him. Likely why the covey didn’t side with him because they knew they needed the money to survive and likely saw how much it weighed on Lucy gray to have to do that.

[@Juli6SS]

When reading the book I was always waiting to find out that Lucy was a master manipulator. But then I realized that it's because I was reading from Snow's point of view. And he's very paranoid person😅

[@JessietheSleepyKoala]

I’ve always found The Ballad of Lucy-Gray to be fascinating because it’s one of the only true looks we get into her life prior to the Reaping but also gives some of the most fascinating hints to parts of the darker side of her personality. We know she started drinking very young but the line “we drank up our money” is so fascinating to me because of how much prior to this point in the song it’s been indicated either directly or indirectly what they would do to get money to survive and feed the covey. I think it’s very intentional that the song includes twice, in just the second verse (after the first verse already mentions what they have to do to survive - “you went to the dogs and I lived by my charms”), how she would specifically have to perform to get food - that type of repetition is normally avoided so close together so it doesn’t end up feeling repetitive, yet the notion is repeat only two lines later with direct synonyms of the first (“I sang for my supper… we danced for our dinner”) which I find really telling. It makes me wonder if Lucy-Gray and/or Billy-Taupe were self medicating to deal with their situation, maybe to the detriment of what they were trying to achieve. I also always found something more sinister to the mention that Lucy-Gray had to “live by her charms” - something that is incredibly upsetting if required by anyone to do, let alone a child. The idea that they “lost their bright colours” fits pretty well with the loss of innocence and childhood that she would have experience if she was forced to sell herself to feed the covey. If she was indeed self medicating with alcohol even while struggling to get food, I could see trauma like this being part of it. We also know Lucy-Gray doesn’t think much of the law and encourages Billy-Taupe in both breaking it and also indulging in vices (presumably if it will get them money - “you stole and you gambled and I said you should”). In a different story, where Mayfair wasn’t so clearly involved with having her father target Lucy-Gray after whatever falling out happened between Billy-Taupe and the two women, I have wondered if the “then one day you left saying I was no good” line could have been a reference to Lucy-Gray’s encouragement of crime, vices and drinking, with Mayfair offering a better life. But with how awful Mayfair is, even with all of Lucy-Gray’s faults, I don’t think that’s the case in this story. But was an interesting idea that came to mind when pulling together the “history” verses of the song with information from what happened in the story. But this final line of him leaving because she was “no good” combined with the next verse is where I find it gets really interesting - why did Billy-Taupe consider her no good? Why does Lucy-Gray believe she’s bad and has been bad for a while? So far what’s she’s mentioned sound like necessities that she’s done to survive. Which makes me wonder if it’s something about her personality and the way she interacts with others that isn’t immediately obvious but makes her less of a good person than she seems to be. Which leads to the thing I find most fascinating about this song and encapsulates both the rest of the verses but also the performance in general - her choice to call out Billy-Taupe. Because she didn’t *want* to sing at the interview initially because she didn’t see the point and it took Snow several tries in the book to convince her. And when she does eventually agree, she doesn’t perform for the crowd or to get sponsors - instead she performs a vindictive song directed at her ex boyfriend and mentions how she hopes he hears it, in which she points out everything he had that he’s now lost and how it’s his fault that she is going to die. She points out how close they were and how vulnerable he was with her (“I was the one who saw how you were brave”; “I am the one who you let see you weeping”; “I know the soul that you struggled to save”), then turns it around and points out multiple times how she’s about to die, that she’ll take his secrets to her grave (“I am the one who heard what you said sleeping, I’ll take that and more when I go to my grave”) how he’ll be all alone when she does (“it’s sooner than later that I’m six feet under, sooner than later that you’ll be alone. But who will you turn to tomorrow, I wonder? Cause when the bell rings, lover you’re on your own”), and ends it with the chilling remark about how his “bet” that he could keep both her and Mayfair, ended up with her being sentence to death, and the final question of what he will do - or how he will cope - with her death knowing it’s her blood on his hands. Going back to the section where she talks about “she’s bad but that’s nothing new”, this peek into her choice of what to sing and what exactly she does sing, I think points to what she means and also what Billy-Taupe is referring to when he gives that warning to Snow. Lucy-Gray is dedicated, she will protect those she cares about, she tries to remain happy - externally she presents positively. But she can also be mean and cruel when she wants to be. She can manipulate people if she needs to, like she did with Snow. She will lie and probably cheat and steal if it benefits her. The internal person she is, particularly the part that controls her interactions with others, is not always good or pleasant and doesn’t always match the sweet external girl people see. But at the same time I don’t think that makes her a bad person - The Ballad of Lucy-Gray is a mean spirited song performed knowing that Billy-Taupe is almost certainly watching, but she’s also a child who has a date with death the next day. She does blame Billy-Taupe for her situation but once she’s back at District 12 we never see her act like this towards him. She’s upset, she doesn’t want to see him, she’s ready to move on and cut him from her life, but she doesn’t keep hounding him with the same ferocity and specificity that she does when she performs at the interview which I think shows that a lot of the performance and song were likely caught up in her fear of what would happen in the arena the next day and how she didn’t want to die. She has the ability to lash out just like anyone else but when she does, it’s at a time of intense fear and despair because she knows she’s going to die. The fact that she reigns it back in afterwards and doesn’t continue to directly attack Billy-Taupe says a lot more about her ability to move on and try and get past the hurt people have caused her even if she’s still angry at him and not yet willing to forgive him or talk to him. I loved what you said about how she shows her true feelings through her song, I really think this is true. The song and what it might mean have lived rent free in my head for months now so it was so nice to be able to actually write out my thought on it.

[@iriswatt4275]

I see Lucy Gray as both a victim and a manipulator, or better yet, should I say performer? She was an innocent, traumatized young child, abused, taken advantage of and thrown into a dangerous, deadly fight to the death with twenty three other innocent young children. Literally everyone in that arena was victimized and just trying to survive, even the more active participants, and Lucy Gray was no different. If anything, she was a survivor with a long history of doing whatever it took to survive, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing, I mean, it’s not like any of it came from a place of malice, or outright vindictive entertainment. A girl’s gotta do what a girl’s gotta do, it’s as simple as that, and she was just trying to make the best out of her situation. Everyone loves characters like Finnick Odair and Johanna Mason, they’re literally two of the most beloved characters in the entire THG franchise, and we know they’re good people, but don’t forget that Johanna once pretended to be soft and weak before going on a murderous rampage with an axe during her games and Finnick was once a Career (and likely a volunteer as well, who trained for the games), and both of them took advantage of their public image and other people’s perceptions of them for their own gain and survival. Also, don’t forget Finnick making the best out of his forced prostitution by Snow, and deliberately charming his way through the Capitol to gain secrets to be used against Snow and aid in the Rebellion and the President’s downfall. Why can’t Lucy Gray just be both? I wouldn’t blame her for it if she was. It wouldn’t make her a bad person. If anything, she’s a survivor. On the topic of Snowbaird, I think she genuinely did come to feel care and affection for Coriolanus after a time, especially after all he did for her during the games, trauma bonds are no joke and she definitely felt some sort of gratitude towards him, almost like she owed him a debt, but she was definitely manipulating him during her time at the Capitol, not that I can blame her for it. Her life was quite literally on the line there.

[@TheNin-Jedi]

It's really all in the name. Lucy Gray. Her background is gray. Her future is gray. Gray is mysterious. Like a roaming mist or fog. It comes in and leaves on the wind. I theorize that she was born in or around the Capital. I say this because she's not from District 12 being of a traveling troupe. Yet her need for freedom and her obvious intelligence and survival instincts. She didn't get those from nowhere. Her singing ability. Her ability to preform. The fact that she knows certain etiquette of the Capital. As said in the video, she also has a memory of taking a pretty fancy bath as a young girl. It was all taught and you don't get taught those things just anywhere. The real question is whether is vanished like a ghost because she literally died or because she knows how to escape and vanish into the world.

[@littlemzrainbowz98]

Lucy Gray is not a fully fleshed out character. And this is not a criticism. We don't know much about her or her motivations. All we know is what Snow cares to know-- which is not a lot. He only cares about what she can do for him, how she feels about him, and her relationship to him. He does not ask her questions about herself. He does not ask her if the things she told him about herself during the games were true (she did not owe a capitol boy truth). And our opinion of her is coloured by Snow's opinion of her. And Snow is paranoid. So we don't know much about her and we are suspicious of her BECAUSE Snow is an unreliable narrator. Lucy Gray is not some manipulative evil woman. She's just a girl who had a tragic life.

[@xenkiv1087]

I like how you pointed out the songs reveal who Lucy Gray is and how she can be untrustworthy at times. I believe the poem of lucy gray was more of a forshadow as how the book would end and reveals how lucy gray had no one to guide her, hence some of her questionable decisions. Lucy Gray wasn't a manipulator or victim. She was someone who was trying to survive. At first, I believe she was infatuated with Snow, but as she gets to know him, especially in part 3, she starts to mistrust him. Eventually, I believe she put him to the test by asking about the 3rd death and his reaction when he discovered the guns. If I were in Lucy Gray's shoes, I would also run.

[@liv-uu1fi]

I interpreted the roses and milk bath line as a lie sort of. At least in my mind, imagine you're in the Hunger Games right and a capitol boy comes up to you holding a rose pretending to be all courteous when you're gonna die in a couple days, you feel small. I think Lucy Gray said that as a lie to make herself seem better, as if she is just as big as the capitol is.

[@rachelcarlson3503]

i also didnt imagine her bathing in solely milk like youd just add it to water im guessing??

[@wednes3day]

Or you might be doing a rag or sponge bath? Especially if she's swimming in the lakes?

[@julietardos5044]

Someone else commented that it could easily be homemade goat milk and wild rose soap. Lucy Gray tells about the soap in a poetic manner. This makes more sense than a flat out lie. Anyway, it makes sense to me.

[@niyaakbar1098]

@@rachelcarlson3503you don’t need a bunch of milk to have a milk bath. It’s still water based and you pour a few cups of milk in. It’s good for rashes, eczema etc

[@brendajp]

You didn't listen. Lucy was an orphan when she was sent to district 12. Lucy said she wasnt from a district. HER MOM BATHED HER IN ROSES, somewhere in the wilderness outside the districts. Roses are a wild flower... Lucy Gray thinks outside the box because she lived outside the box

[@xXkhrystalXx]

And the milk?

[@daltongibson1033]

Bathing in milk and roses is an image often associated with Marie Antoinette; it's heavily associated with royalty and wealth. Especially due to the relative rarity of milk, as well as the prestige associated with roses, that specific image is very often used in reference to a queen or a princess in fiction. In saying that her mother bathed her in milk and roses, it's very likely that Lucy Gray was either calling herself or comparing herself to a queen or a princess, or saying that her mother treated her like one.

[@deborahtheexplorer]

I definitely agree that she was outside of the box for sure☺️. In chapter 3 of the book, she says to Snow “When I was little, they used to bathe me in buttermilk and rose petals.” not just roses, and she never mentioned WHERE she was bathed (I don't remember that being in the movie either) She also does not elaborate on that either: she continues and says: “Tastes like bedtime.” (after eating the rose.). I have now learned Roses are a wildflower✨, however I did say I couldn't find that evidence in the book itself (as stated in the video) so I didn't just want to state it as fact. Lucy Gray does describe how her and her parents died, and that was being part of being rounded up into district 12 in chapter 4. She wasn't sent alone to district 12, but was rounded up with her family, her mother and father tried to fight and got killed. Leaving her an orphan who had to live with a strange man. She also says she's not from a district, which is true and I did state that in my video as that what we do know of her. I did cast my own personal opinion of disbelief on that part, later in the video, but like I said, I know that is not canon, yet I wouldn't be surprised if the covey's history has been little 'decorated' to say the least. I hope this helps cover up anything misunderstood✨🫶🏿

[@glory4645]

Yea but that doesn't change the fact that her mother definitely didn't bath her with milk in district or out of district. I saw it as Lucys imagination and irony.

[@strawberribubbletea]

@@deborahtheexplorer When Lucy gray said she was bathed in roses and milk I think she was saying it sarcastically, just like how Peeta ask Caesar if he smelled liked roses jokingly in his interview. Loved this video btw.

[@yarenkuyumcu9789]

Honestly ı think she was a little bit of both.Coriolanus was both,too.They loved but also used each other.Though Coriolanus saw her as a dreamy,submissive,pure innocent,easily manipulated girl before he realized she wasn't at the end and this devastated him.She would never rat him out,that was not her style but she would not stay with him eitherShe would defend herself because she valued freedom and trust the most.I do not think she wanted to kill him.She probably just wanted to distract him with the snake so that she could run away for the better.

[@Aerie925]

Lucy not looking/asking around for Coriolanus while he was a peace keeper isn’t a sign of her not liking him. It’s indicative of the social hierarchy. Their relationship had to be a secret as it wouldn’t be appropriate for Snow to openly be dating Lucy. So, it makes sense that Snow would be the one to have to initiate their interactions.

[@gzapray7203]

Reminds me of myself wondering if Peeta is also a victim or manipulator. Then I realize that the original trilogy is told by Katniss' POV, who is not a reliable narrator thanks to her trauma and her judgmental nature. Surely the prequel is told in third person, but in Snow's POV. Indeed, both Katniss and Snow are so different yet so same in some respects.

[@GranolaGaylord]

On the point of the availability of roses: wild roses are pretty hardy, and definitely available in the region of District 12. With the covey regularly going beyond the fences of 12 to forage, fish and swim, it's entirely probable-- even likely-- that they'd have access.

[@corneliahanimann2173]

I like that her name is Baird She's a bard! Navigating her way through a battlefield with song and scheming. At least I like to think that this was part of the decision to call her Lucy Grey Baird.

[@Marina_7]

Yeah, like a mix between a bard and a free bird

[@corneliahanimann2173]

@@Marina_7 took me a minute to get what you're saying, but given this story was about songbirds and snakes, this one really flew over my head! Good catch

[@Marina_7]

@@corneliahanimann2173 thank you, sorry I was unclear, as you figured I meant Bard + Bird = Baird Also, it "flew" over your head? Nice (unintended?) pun 😁

[@corneliahanimann2173]

@@Marina_7 yea that pun was unintended, but I'll roll with it lol

[@AudrinaRenda-uu2ks]

@@corneliahanimann2173In the movie I know that multiple characters like grandma’am and Dean high bottom keep on calling Lucy gray a songbird.

[@PERSEUS-NIOR]

Okay what I infer is Snow genuinely loved her....well as genuine as he is capable of...but in the cabin his own paranoia his own doubts his own ambition...like he gave upon the dream to be president to be with her...but then something changed in him in cabin left to himself his dark thoughts grew stronger Lucy is very much the victim but she ain't no fool she could see the darkness inside the man she loved she is smart resourceful capable

[@JS-L90]

In a survival situation, a lot of people become both simultaneously. Many smart people manipulate in order to survive and protect those close to them. In certain contexts, I don't think that necessarily makes them bad people

[@laurel7135]

“a lot of people think it was a trauma bond” made me think about how actually all of the hunger games ships I can think of are mostly trauma bonds (katniss/peeta, katniss/gale, coryo/lucy gray etc)

[@LilacSreya]

People don't use the correct definition of trauma bond.

[@olivianewton9209]

I don’t know who would make the argument that “she wasn’t looking for snow” because Lucy Gray was told that Snow was going to district 8, not district 12. So of course she wouldn’t look for Snow… I don’t think it so heavily dealt with trauma although that may have played a factor.

[@Amy_afire]

I interpreted the line “my mother used to bathe me in rose petals (or whatever) and milk,” to be that Lucy Gray was boasting to Coryo to establish her worth as another human being to the first scary Capitol citizen she meets. She’s just spent several days being dehumanized - rounded up like an animal and kept in a cattle car against her will. I think she is indeed implying that her mother was rich enough to purchase roses and milk despite the reasons you mention: scarcity of supply and money in the districts. Because to a Capital citizens, perhaps she imagines they might treat her like a human being if they think she’s rich (like them.)

[@jenndowden8131]

It wouldn't have taken much buttermilk to bathe a baby. Times may not have been quite so hard or milk so scarce when Lucy Gray was little while her family still had some degree of freedom & autonomy. She reads as a southern archetype to me, & being bathed in buttermilk & roses as a baby seems plausible.

[@niyaakbar1098]

Plus it’s not like she said that’s the only was she bathed

[@saracollins4399]

My guess is she meant dried rose petals and melted snow. There is also the wild multiflora rose. that grows rampant along farm fences. In the past, bathing in flower petals was popular for those who couldn’t afford soap. Rose petals and milk just makes for a more romantic notion.

[@theultimateusukfan]

i headcanon/theorize that the covey (before the war) lived months at a time in one area, before moving to another. so who is to say they weren't able to capture a goat and milk it? besides making money thorugh music, they could have traveled with the hypothetical goat and sell extra milk or other products from it (like how prim was making cheese in book 1 of HG from her own goat, lady). anyways, i like the ideas u bring up in this video. lucy gray and snow were initially infatuated with eachother, while also low key using each other during the games, which is why lucy gray's trust in him slowly fell apart the longer he kept seeing her in d12. things were just different by then for both of them. lucy gray 100% didnt think to seek out snow in d12 bc she had to continue to work to support maude ivory (who is like her little sister. similar to katniss not focusing on love bc she worked to support prim).

[@4fthell]

She's not a manipulator, she's just a kid :( and she trauma bonded with Snow.

[@Zivanovaable]

For me her family's backstory seemed to be realistic : before the war they were an itinerant tribe who didn't belong to a particular district (they move around the country to perform), after the war they forced to settle down by the new government. Bc of that they are out of a bit neiter capitol nor district or rebel as explained by her.

[@storytimewithyaz]

I was literally saying to my friend the other day that I think Gale is the descendent of Lucy Gray… I didn’t even know until you read the poem about the line with Hawthorne… I feel like there’s a LOT that could be said of that and then it also low key would make Gale & Katniss cousins. I didn’t feel like SC wrote that without intention.

[@d.oertliche]

I love how her name also shows that even though Capitol people like Snows Grandmaam say that district people are uncivilised actually those are the people remembering culture and prose from before the capitol (Wordworth etc) even though it became more of folklore than literature i still think its a very nice detail

[@Isabel-is1ky]

When listening to The Ballad of Lucy Gray , i see Billy taupe as someone who she had a kinship but was also verbally abusive

[@grodriguez7225]

Whether in death or escape at least Lucy is free from District 12, The Capital, and Snow’s grasp! If she is alive I hope she found some peace from the constant trauma and battle she had to deal with. However if she is dead than I hope it wasn’t too painful.

[@mal_thespygirl]

Honestly, I think Lucy Gray and Snow both tried to use each other. I also don’t think they were both actually in love, but it was more teenage love and the situation of survival they were both in

[@LemonThymeArt]

I love watching these and all the different takes people have from the book/movie. Thanks for sharing the original poem where her name is from! ❤.

[@charissevillanueva9201]

From 9:00 to 11.43. (Sorry this is just me fangirling, this is just my opinion) I don't believe she was lying about her past. Lucy gray is a very expressive person about who she is and her past, where she came from and her family. her whole personality is about freedom. And it shows through her singing and performing, she unashamed about who she is. When she mentions how her mothers used to bathe her in milk and rose petals. I would assume it was when she was a child, living far from the districts and before the were gathered by Peacekeepers. Idk it was just a thought 😂

[@rainyhaze2053]

I always thought Lucy Gray's comment about the buttermilk and roses bath was a quip/sarcastic joke. She is very quick with her words and throws open contempt to signs of power and privilege. She shows no sign, that she actually values the rose or its symbolism, she eats it after all, because Snow is just part of the oppressive system that sentenced her to death. She does not want to assimilate to the capitol and such a bath feels like something only an ostentatious capitol person would do, not poor, traveling musicians, which makes the statement ironic to me. She says it like when she is in the zoo cage being interviewed by that reporter, who despite her corrections keeps insisting she's district 12 and she eventually just says something like "if you say so". She thinks it's pointless so waste energy on explaining oneself to people, who don't want to listen.

[@Liyahdid]

loved the songbirds and snakes amazing video!!

[@izziemoss8262]

I believe before the war they weren’t all penned into district and they were able to travel around.

[@robbitreads]

so typically you pour milk and water into a bath. it mustve been mostly water. it has health benifits moistens your skin and helps with like poison ivy and other rashes. your point still stands just wanted to put that out there.

[@walnutsrcool]

Lol, like we should trust Snow's perspective. Also she's a child who was conscripted into the hunger games. You can be a victim and manipulator, sometimes you survive by manipulating.

[@kittyskywalker768]

My opinion Lucy is manipulative, and I think she still is a victim. I think the biggest reason Coryo and Lucy were attracted to each other is bc they both share the trait of being manipulative, wearing a mask to get what they want. Going back and watching the movie from the jump they both were trying to charm each other.

[@ashesandposies]

Yeah, they both charmed each other and fell for each other to a degree

[@MorganJ]

About the bathing in milk thing - is it possible the type of bath mentioned could be referring to a sponge bath? It would require significantly less liquid than actually submerging an entire body in it.

[@sadiayusuf3067]

Love this, and now I need a deep dive into Casca Highbottom. I haven't seen you get into his "creation" of the hunger games.

[@R3natavids]

I don't think the 'snow' play on words is a reach, I think Suzanne Collins had a bit of fun with that. In the book Lucy Gray's footsteps disappear in the woods just like the Lucy Gray of the poem (and in the movie as well, although it's harder to notice without the narration), so the parallels are quite literal and definitely intentional. I think our view of Lucy Gray is definitely colored by the lens of our POV character's paranoia and misogyny. She uses her charms and looks out for herself (as does Coriolanus!), and has a 'flowery' way of speaking but I don't think she's meant to be particularly untrustworthy tbh. Like when she talks about the Covey being nomads I don't think she's referring to them being from outside the districts, unless I'm misremembering something, just to the time before the districts were divided.

[@Zivanovaable]

I think the Covey thing meant to be real, is inspired on the Romani (particularly the musicality and the love of the bright colours) or other itinerant tribes who doesn't identify with any places they are living. To explain her love of freedom for the reader.

[@Bunneh1046]

In regards to the roses and milk, since they’re preformers/travelers maybe they got paid in goods

[@ZePopTart]

That’s really interesting about the Lucy Grey poem. Surprised I haven’t heard anyone else mention it

[@JabamiLain]

Indeed. She's a victim who had to manipulate in order to survive.

[@StyleFruit2]

10:37 cleopatra was famous in rome for her wasteful milk baths. True or roman propaganda, im sure the author knew this was a common concpetion

[@Sheepcakezzz]

Suzanne collins is a genius

[@newwi6456]

I don’t think bathing in milk means that it’s not mixed with water. You can put half a bottle of milk and some roses in a bath and still call it a bath in milk and roses

[@LB-xz9ub]

Snow projected on her hard and they would have never worked out anyway. Too different. I think even Lucy Gray slowly sensed that... Sometimes people can want to be together but various factors can make it not work out. And thats okay. So I think both should have learnt somet take aways: that not all relationships work out. In Snow's case, I believe he decided to become a worst version of himself, which is b.s cuz his own hero's journey is a lie. Dude's been lying to himself his entire life thats why he keeps emphasizing that ish even to Katniss. Lucy Gray on the other hand I believe probably became more circumspect where ever she ended up.

[@Can_tab]

It is definitely shown that Suzanne took inspiration from the Lucy Gray poem because the last line of the song “Lucy Gray” is “You may see sweet Lucy Gray in the lonesome wild.” (I commented this in like, the middle of watching the video, so I dont know if it was said later)

[@juvon102]

With the milk bath thing it would still make sense. Lucy did say when she was a kid so it likely would’ve been before the HG as even during the war not everyone was the same some ppl (namely the rich) lived pretty well. It’s possible especially if the Covey didn’t come from Panem. This is still post-apocalyptic so child labor would likely be more than common to get materials from multiple sources and it’s possible the Covey came from the North where Lucy Grey and Coryo were planning to flee to.

[@itsbettyjohnson]

one thing I noticed that makes me think Lucy Gray is alive, and may somehow be related to Katniss, is Katniss’s last name Everdeen. Everdeen is a city in north eastern Scotland, it’s sometimes known as ‘The Gray City’, because of the gray granite used to build most of the buildings. Of course what does Scotland have to do with Panem? that’s where i’m lost. Just a thought.

[@PolishAxolotl]

🤯🤯🤯

[@yawninglion1677]

It's so upsetting that so many people see Lucy Gray as the bad guy. Snow was a narcissist.

[@JabamiLain]

What !? She was clearly the victim ! I'm a man, and even I had the empathy to put myself in her place and understand her. I blame mainstream midia movies and series for making females too perfect, or too flawed.

[@yawninglion1677]

@@JabamiLain A lot of people see her as the manipulative one who broke his heart, when he was always meant to be a prick

[@ashesandposies]

When I watched the movie a second time I didn’t think about the book as much and the scene where she leaves Snow with a snake under his mother shawl, she does seem to turn on him pretty quickly and brings up the fact she’s a loose end and then runs away, it comes off that she breaks his heart.

[@yawninglion1677]

@@ashesandposies I mean, that's assuming she even planted the snake to begin with. It wasn't poisonous, and while it's implied she was fleeing from him, any rational person would flee from someone who killed three people and is currently holding a gun.

[@user-ne7kw2bo3v]

I had assumed she was born in Panem but her family would just travel from district to district.

[@alicianelson1252]

panem is only ten years old at this point

[@miaamer7718]

When Billy Taupe was saying that she is not an innocent lamb in front of Coriolanus she than explained herself that she was flirting to get good impressions and never actually sell herself like Billy was implying but also she adds that she WOULD HAVE done it for Mode Ivory and I believe her. I don't think she ever lied to Snow about anything. Billy Taupe gives such a toxic ex vibes who cheated on his girlfriend himself but blaming a girl saying she is a hoe and not him.

[@kurtistownresident9743]

Bathing a small child in roses and milk actually wouldn’t take that much milk. They had a goat so they did have access to milk. A milk bath for a kid would take maybe a couple cups of milk, since most milk baths are heavily diluted by water. I think Snow from the perspective of a capital citizen thinks shes bathing in undiluted milk and lots of roses. But for a kid it probably had one or two roses worth of petals. A milk bath like this would be common for lower income families to help with skin conditions on babies, as it is effective and accessible. When Lucy Gray was a baby she couldve been bathed in breast milk as well, since breast milk baths are common home remedies for rashes dry/sensitive baby skin.

[@annieshang]

I love your points in this and also I don't think your connection of the Lucy Gray Poem and Lucy Gray Baird's doom with SNOW is a reach. I literally gasped and I think it fits. Especially since everything else is so intricately connected, like the Ballad of Lucy Gray Baird is written for Billy Taupe but I think it could as easily apply to her relationship with Snow. Also yea they definitely use each other for their own survival, but there is real love Lucy Gray felt for Snow, because she saved him during the explosion even though she could've run for herself. So I do think they both really fell for each other.

[@Victoriadeleva5]

I think Lucy Gray is one of those characters who truly lies as a mystery and for purpose. The poem that her character is based on has the same fate as her’s which is unknown. Her not getting a POV is apart of her character and makes it all the more intriguing. As for the manipulator or victim situation I think that she was a young teenage girl who did what it took to survive given her circumstances. Her whole life it seems she has been performing which is what she mainly relies on. She has a certain persona she must keep up with but her true loyalties lie in her family and songs she writes. While some of the things she did may seem manipulative it was her keeping up her character and doing what had to been done to survive. As she seems like a very vivid and charming girl that does not make her a “manipulator”. While we may never know her true intentions she is a very unique character who truly lies in a mysterious nature!

[@nehizenayoungedo9856]

I wouldn’t trust anything Snow says of Lucy Gray. We only know of her from Snow’s perspective who isn’t exactly reliable.

[@sildarmillion]

I figured that the Covey were a nomadic group that used to travel all across continental U.S. from since _before_ the districts were formed. That's why they don't feel like they are district, because they haven't had roots in any district for generations. And even after the formation of the districts they used to roam from district to district until they were rounded up and told to stay in 12 (which was probably the last place they had traveled to).

[@swiftsetrider4543]

A bath of milk here could just mean water with a jug of milk poured in to moisturize. If they’re nomadic then maybe they herd a few sheep or goats.

[@khairulazib3556]

Some people might say she's a manipulator but one thing clear is snow's a narcissist

[@Zivanovaable]

I think she didn't searched him after the game may be because the district ppl are restricted in getting contact with the capitol ppl. They are clearly segregated, no traveling etc. May be if she go to search him would have consequences for her. That way he comes to her place in weekends can run under the radar (of both the authorities and the society). He has more freedom to reach out than her.

[@nightstar1528]

A victim who was able to learn the game well enough to manipulate it to where she survived

[@Lxaxb]

Gosh I wish we could see lucys perspective of ballad of songbirds and snakes

[@chloe-mq6ql]

personally. i think it's almost 100% unlikley that she died in the end. snow was going into paranoia and having hallucinations. so when he was randomly shooting and heard a soft cry, he definently was imagining that and like ofcourse there was no body. yes that does happen, someone gets murdered and their body dissapears or is never found but how would her body immediatley dissapear like that??

[@Arquebusier89]

I don’t agree they don’t fall in love with each other. At least for Snow, he did confide the feeling when he kissed her to Tigris (you forgot about that?) and asked her about that. As an INFJ, he doesn’t don’t simply fall in love with simply anyone, because he himself knew what happened to Tigris when you just let random guy crash in into her life, also not to mention the whole class knows about their love. If it is less than genuine love, they won’t even take notice. Look up how INFJ falls in love. INFJ requires serious trust in love from his partner and I argue more than LGB valued trust. This is why when both of them talk and discuss their lives (I love the meadow scene when they talk to each other and open their heart, the interview in Capitol and their meeting in the zoo), they are always in harmony until someone decided to stop talking altogether. I don’t think Lucy manipulated him, I think they just want to survive and win. Does Snow want the prize more than Lucy Gray? I argue he might want the later. Snow knows she is the weakest among all to fight physically, but I think he underestimated how witty she can get (rat poison and how she used the snake to kill). As someone who frequently played Battle Royale game, I know it’s tough to win a Battle Royale, almost a miracle for a performer who relied on whatever is available to her compared to the planning and predicting type of Snow. I get scared during the last few minutes in the game because I know the ones who survived are very skilled and will kill you before you blink your eye. Snow didn’t think she has a chance until he helped her by cheating. For me, I think he focused on getting her alive more important than winning the prize. 😊 If he wants the prize, why would he cheat and risk being disqualified? And you saw how he was exiled to the District for 20 years! Is that the price you willing to pay for winning? Btw he didn’t win the Prize but he got Lucy. And that’s all he cared about. So yes, she is important than the prize. personalitytests.com/infj-esfp-compatibility-love-marriage-romance/

[@Arquebusier89]

I love the part when you mentioned she bathed in milk when young.

[@editfarkas333]

Ahh I agree! One of these days I had the same thought that he is an INFJ. About if he loved her or not: Just a few thoughts. He helped her even when Casca Highbottom told him he will do everything for him not to get the price, yet Crolianus kept helping Lucy Gray. And he gave her his mother's compact, which he treasured (was her mom's rose scented powder in it, that comforted him), he gave her his mother's shawl too. These things were important to him. That says a lot.

[@Arquebusier89]

@@editfarkas333 this shows how good is Suzanne writing that you can deduce a personality trait from a fictional character 🤣

[@editfarkas333]

@@Arquebusier89 True!

[@user-ib1is7ny7r]

he loved her but he didn’t know any other way to love but to be possessive and toxic, lol. as for her I think she did love him, but she wasn’t going all in because she didn’t fully trust him and after what the other guy did to her it was understandable

[@wednes3day]

About the bathing in milk and roses, maybe it was more of a sponge or rag "bath"? That youd suspend roses in a container of milk and the use that as a sponge bath

[@lexxwippel]

I haven’t agreed this much with someone on this topic like I have here. Fire vid

[@Vertasoie]

I like your analysis, i think she did what she had to to survive but she isnt bad . He has an extremely possessive way to like her. He seems to like people as long as they can be controlled and be useful to him and projects in his head how it would go if she went with him to the capitol. I like how his caracter is both extremely dangerous and yet very insecure at the same time. He is spending all his time to prevent things not to go his way. He doesnt love her, he is infatuated with her. What i love the most with his caracter is how he as enough empathy to see how people think but still doesnt have enough empathy to let his guard down and truly feel love. He thinks he understands it, he does not. Im ranting a lot but I just read the book , saw the movie and fell in love with the story :D

[@HecticHedwig]

Hey there :) I really enjoy your videos, but the one thing that haunts me: what is the name of the background melody? It is sooo pretty 😍

[@ZwarteKonijn]

On the Covey, I've seen people talk about that it seems they were based on already existing nomadic groups in the Appalachian Mountains, but also that there are similarities between the Covey and Romani groups. So they would not have been from 12, same as any nomadic groups that still live over the whole world, because they have a different culture, and often haven't been given the same rights as other people born there, so they would've known they were not from there (also since they were traveling performers, it makes sense that they know they're not from the place where people told them to stay put). So where they come from? From what I understand is that most of the stories happen after a sort of 3rd world war in our present day world, so they'd probably be descended from now existing nomadic groups. On the roses, I've seen some people comment about how easy it is to make a rose milk bath (just add a bit of milk to water), I want to add that rose petals are edible, and wild roses do grow in a lot of places in the wild. They're not just garden plants, so I assumed they found wild roses in the wild. That sentence showed me more that she came from a group of people who knew more of how to actually make things, different from Snow who just knew it as a capitol product and luxury. This was never why I assumed she was a 'manipulator', they were just elements to show of her background. I did think more later, especially in the zoo, that she was a smart cookie and knew how to charm people and use it to her advantage. Not as much a manipulator, but smart and knowing how to play her strengths (the movie did disappoint me a bit in this, in the book she came across as a lot smarter and quick on her feet). I think the only reason people think she was manipulative is because it's from Snow's point of view, and that's his only take on her playing her strengths, because it's the only reason he would do these things.

[@RosesTeaAndASD]

We know that The Capitol had no problem with "age of consent", so it's possible that Lucy Gray had to perform the same actions as Tigress did to survive. I felt sick typing that, but we know that The Capitol were forcing the victors into "inappropriate acts", so it's not outside the realm of possibility.

[@sofieeec]

north america is a giant continent so I think it’s absolutely plausible that they lived off the map until their movements brought them in contact with the borders of panem.

[@babs3241]

I assume that the Covey was born in the area outside the districts (you don't go straight from D11 to D12, you go through no man's land between them for almost a day on the tribute train, and I assume that's where they came from). They traveled around and didn't have a home base.

[@cazyjohn2005]

in the world of hunger game you have be both stay alive, even more so after a war.

[@lais_eva]

The Covey as a group draw some inspiration from the Romani as far as I can tell, I think Lucy Gray is definitely a shady character but I think the part about her Covey heritage is definitely true. I think it nicely plays into the themes of oppression that we see explored in the Hunger Games in how the Capitol oppresses the districts. And besides, since the districts were created by the Capitol and they are known to be big on propaganda, I don't think it's really that weird that Snow hasn't heard about them.

[@manolososadavinci1937]

Of course Lucy gray is a villain manipulator while president snow is the hero of the story just carrying his national on his shoulders 💙💙💙

[@naleybaby]

She’s also not the one who was hunting someone in the woods and it’s a gun, that’s Snow. Once again from a man’s perspective he makes himself the victim while turning the woman into the villain and then we have people asking if she truly a manipulator or victim

[@itsalwaysclaudia]

New upload!! Is it Christmas or whattttt 🤠🫶🏻

[@Sheepcakezzz]

Its woc misogny bc no one would question her if she was a white man. But eveyone loves and excuses Snow

[@itzlazyalex1811]

THIS

[@catsareexcellent]

There is no excuse for Snow

[@deborahtheexplorer]

Snow, is inexcusable 😭 but isn’t Lucy Gray in the books white? Or do you wean by Rachel playing the part, it casts a shadow on the character 🤔

[@elizabethliz146]

​@deborahtheexplorer Lucy Gray isn't white in the books. Both her race and skin color aren't told to the reader. The only description she has is her curly dark hair. She and the covey seemed based around alot romani culture, being traveler, having two first names, colorful clothes so I always saw them as such.

[@Sheepcakezzz]

​@@deborahtheexplorer when I read it I thought she was Romani like . It didn't describe her as white

[@thatdrawingguydanny]

No bc where is the covey at the end😭😭 like girl they got her ass in the woods and WENT!😭😭😭😭

[@FoxyGuyHere]

Victim. She didn't do anything evil.

[@madelynmiranda4607]

Lucy Gray reminds me of Katherine Pierce so much

[@LilacSreya]

Yes! Lucy = Katherine. Snow = Stefan/Ripper/Damon.

[@nuotatorre8741]

Great video I enjoies it lots. I don't think Lucy Gray was a manipulatior, the best way to describe what she did is that she played her cards right. She had an ace in the form of Corio and used it to get all ofnthe advantages she could. When you are in a death game tou really can't blame her for that. With that said I definatly think the manipulator accusation are mostly for the book version of her. 1) Because we get Snow unreliable narration 2)Someone made a very good video about it, can't remeber her name, but in short she said that in the book Lucy Grey has a lot more agensy in the games. She comes off as more cunning than in the movie were Snow is much more of a safety blanket for her. Not that in the movie she was helpless but even if smart she wasn't as cunning as her book version when it came to the way she played the games. This makes her look a lot more vulnerable which gives the audience an easier time to take her well being at heart. I also think she survived her final fight with Snow, one of her quotes I find more significant in this aspect is "It isn't over untill the Mokingjay sings", which emplies that when she set off the birds around Snow the game was closed already. However I can't see her making it past the winter much like her namesake, even if she found D13 which isn't that likely in my opinion I definatly think she would rather die than adopt D13's way of living.

[@the.scarlet_witch.official]

Billy and Coryo just aren't reliable, but it doesn't mean what they say doesn't ring with truth....but Lucy is a survivor and a thriver who never let the world around her change her. She didn't make but encourage the world to move around her like water around a stone in a stream. Lucy wears her heart on her sleeve with her music and she tells us that trust to her is the most important thing... Lucy was never just a victim no way, but its so simplified to think of her as manipulator only. What defines who we are is how we overcome challenges and circumstances, and doing what you have to do to survive while clinging onto your soul and being true to yourself, even if you keep part of yourself only for your music doesn't mean you use people to get what you want... In the end it is about survival and as we see in the capitol, people will do anything to survive. At least Lucy accepts this side of her and makes no excuses 😊 Thank you for doing this video ❤

[@MistarZtv]

You don't use a whole tub of milk to have a milk bath. 😭 You just add a few jugs or cups of it, and you could use just use the leftover from cheese production called a whey.

[@deborahtheexplorer]

BAHAHHAHA, yes I have the Snow White & the huntsman scene where the queen bathes in milk in my head😭 but as everyone has mentioned, it can be very possible, my bad😭

[@songriver1232]

Both. She was fighting for her life.

[@emilyk5168]

A milk bath is a real thing. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milk_bath It's considered good for the skin, which would make sense if Lucy Gray's mother wanted her to be a performer. Although it would be expensive, but it doesn't seem like the family was poor before the war (consider the detail of her mother's dress).

[@jaginaiaelectrizs6341]

It's not impossible that someone could be both a master manipulator and doing horrible things in order to survive. A person can be or become a master manipulator who does horrible things *_because_* of trying to survive. Having a reason for doing something doesn't necessarily automatically excuse doing that thing or make it something else, or not manipulative, or whatever else. Being a young girl also does not rule out the possibility of being a master manipulator. Young people can also be manipulative, sometimes even more than grown persons specifically because the people around them have an unwillingness to believe a young person capable of such things and a master manipulator will notice that and use it to their own advantage. That being said, I haven't read the book(only watched the movie), so I can't really compare how she was or wasn't changed from page to screen beyond what you've mentioned here or whether or not her character is more or less consistent from one to the other or anything. But I would like to point out that by giving her a compact already filled with poison, we make the idea entirely his - not something that she may or may not have thought up on her own just as much as might or might not have actually understood what he was hinting - and it makes her not culpable for providing herself with the weapon because somebody else put it in her hands, it transforms it into a moral dilemma which we get to watch play out on screen of whether or not to keep and/or actually use that weapon now that it is in her hand....and we see her do so once that goes horribly not according to plan, and again only once absolutely forced to do so because her only options were to either defend herself when cornered or forfeit her own life....that inherently makes someone more likable, to see them reluctant to take those kinds of actions and ultimately regretting doing so and/or only doing so when trapped in a difficult situation that makes us understand why someone might make that decision to do so. It is inherently more heroic, and inherently more a victim of circumstances beyond personal control. And it makes it much less likely that she was, at least in the movie version, merely being manipulative all along.

[@liorleeroy4276]

She can’t really be a victim since she was reaped into an arena to die buuuut. Was she authentic or manipulative with Snow or not is a better way of putting it.

[@kaitlyncoughlin1860]

With the poem for context I def think she died on the way to the 13th district, most likely from Snow even if indirectly but most likely in the most literal sense.