Classroom Series: Urethane DOES NOT (always) Cause Carrydown!!

[@novinnovations4026]

You did it. New Classroom series 🔥

[@annebeavers3002]

School stared, back in session. Your lector is Professor Luke.

[@amusingfollower]

This was an absolute masterclass in explaining nuanced concepts that have similar implications on play but are fundamentally distinct. Reminds me of all the videos you have done attempting to distinguish flare from hook - learnt a lot from this, Luke! 'Minimizing your margins of error by playing straighter' is also an often overlooked and underrated response; sometimes we just need to accept the challenges that aren't solvable by a simple ball change, make better (or safer) shots and live with the results - like with flat patterns too.

[@TehWin3]

Its funny i found this video now! It's a perfect example of what i've been trying to explain to people for quite some time and had plenty of arguments both irl and on comment sections. People are stuck in a completely old and outdated fact. Great video big thumbs!

[@josephemory6635]

I really like how you put these concepts together. We can’t control other people or luck of a draw. I forgot about pattern elongation but subconsciously adjust. I play outside of those who start too far left and bounce off those who smoke the outside. On the left side I’m a one trick pony, and have come to the realization 180 is about the best I’ll ever average there.

[@fuzzytattoo]

Gotta admit I learned some new stuff and need to change the thoughts on this. Well done sir. Much appreciated.

[@bowlfitlove]

Think I’m sending this video to at least 50 ppl!! Awesome job explaining what many can’t seem to understand.

[@decadude8968]

This was an excellent video explanation on the subject Luke. Hopefully people will learn a thing or two!

[@greghansard357]

I've been sneered at many times for saying what you just did Luke. Thank you.

[@texasplumr]

I'm guilty! I never really studied it, I just like to blame something besides myself when struggling with a shot. Hey, I'm human! A great explanation Luke! When someone knowledgeable breaks out a white board I'm all ears. I'm glad I caught this video. Thanks!

[@kevinanderson9093]

Excellent video again. Really enjoyed it. Keep up the good work

[@peterthebowler]

Great stuff once again. Never thought of it and may explain making the wrong moves when lane transitions. Appreciate the insight.

[@nikkozamora6621]

I’m so excited for the new continuation. It’s finally time. Bowling has always had many misunderstood concepts that must be debunked

[@doug_jones]

Excellent explanation!

[@christiancanary6481]

Awesome video! From an inexperienced bowler, this was all new information for me.

[@donrumgay5200]

I’ve always been more annoyed when people throw plastic balls than urethane…this just confirms my belief…

[@Jason_P]

I was just trying to explain this to some bowlers who have been drinking the kool-aid. I also shared the same picture you did here. Far too many people don't want to think about things for themselves and just believe what they're told, even if what they're told doesn't make logical sense. My Attitude Control (same cover as Purple Hammer) flares an insane amount so I don't have to worry about carrydown at all when I use it.

[@Jbmccain86]

Awesome content!

[@slapshtick873]

I'm watching this video and I realized something was off. You're missing an IPA. Awesome video man! Keep them coming and good job explaining. I bought an zen u for the one guy we bowl with that sands his ball to 500. Then if someone throws urethane he gets pissed. I'm gonna send him this video later on in the season.

[@tylerhernandez5207]

This is why I love the TDX, it flares little to non at all for me, and it allows me to use a smooth consistent ball, and nobody complains about urethane going down the lane, even tho my TDX is techinally urethane in their eyes

[@ToolingExpert]

Don't even listen to the pattern-change whinners....always look for that "silver lining" in lane play and use your own tracking method as created by any legal tool. The TDX is a short term but perfect niche ball for the right time and lane offering but urethane, as I too had to learn, deserves its time too and can be a winning checkmate.

[@ripvanrevs]

@@ToolingExpert Nobody does videos on big fuzzy balls torching a lane shoving bowlers 5 boards left every few shots!!

[@joehoenig7596]

Learned a lot, Luke...thank you! My two takeaways are that first, a low-flaring urethane WILL cause carrydown, and that second, using carrydown as hold and regarding it as a positive and useful development, is better than trying to fight through it and viewing it as a barrier. And now I wonder.....might it be a smart strategy to intentionally create carrydown on a short or low volume pattern to create some hold?

[@LukeRosdahl]

Yeah, that's what a lot of bowlers do especially at nationals on the shorter flatter pattern. You know it's going to hook, so what you need is a little hold or push so that you can play the lanes straighter.

[@ripvanrevs]

@@LukeRosdahl I bowled 33 ft sport shot. All urethane first week dried heads and shoved me left. Second week, I followed mostly reactive. I could just throw it down the 10 board the whole night. Reactive still carried the pattern down some and gave me great hold. My purple made it play like a house shot!

[@teddybruckshot1188]

Excellent info! Made this easy to understand…now the challenge of how to communicate this to my teammates 😅

[@d3f1anc3]

Gonna show this video to someone the next time they whine about urethane use. Well done Luke.

[@free2befree]

Thank you for this. I'm getting ready for my first sports shot league in a lonnnnnnnng time, and I am about to start throwing urethane for the first time. I appreciate the knowledge transfer 😅

[@Petebas]

I also explain to people that urethane balls hook earlier so the “carry down” they are seeing is coming from balls that go longer before they start hooking or ANY ball that is thrown straight at spares.

[@LukeRosdahl]

Not necessarily balls going longer, if they're flaring, they still really can't put oil back on the lane, but yeah balls thrown at spares absolutely.

[@FSerrano2789]

Good video. I still have to explain this stuff to people so I'm just gonna send them the link to here lol

[@Jason_P]

Also important to note that even for balls that do carry down, they don't carry down so much and so quickly that it would be noticeable after 1-2 games. Maybe it would be impactful after only a few games if everyone on the lane was using a low-flare ball and playing the same place, but that doesn't always happen. This is especially true when the switch is made to reactive balls after a few games of a tournament. Reactive balls really don't care about a tiny bit of carry down, especially strong solids that hook early anyway.

[@andy7268]

My recent urethane balls all flare over4 inches, my overseas Blue Hammer urethane asym flares over 6 inches. When opponents complain that my urethanes are destroying the pattern I just giggle and enjoy that I'm getting inside their heads!!!

[@ripvanrevs]

My IQ78 flares a lot and I have to move more than when throwing my Purple or Pitch. Maybe the ball is just lane shining faster after I sand it.

[@Jqwerty38]

If you use a shammy, but it more spreads the oil on the surface of a urethane ball rather than remove it, this CAN cause carrydown - even on a ball that flares significantly. This oil spread is common and a reason why the first time you throw a urethane ball it hooks like crazy but repeated shots do not. This probably does not induce as much carrydown as the traditional low flare urethane balls, but I think it will still have an impact. This is significantly less likely on a reactive ball since the coverstock absorbs oil. Even a reactive ball that is not wiped between shots may absorb the oil before the next time it is thrown. Plus, there won't be oil on the part of the ball that hits the backend so it won't carry down. Also, pro tip: use a fresh dry erase pen when recording a video :D

[@LukeRosdahl]

Yeah you definitely want to towel a urethane ball off specifically to kind of spread a little of the oil around. If you do a good enough job wiping though, the oil just kind of coats the ball and doesn't really come off on the lane, not significantly enough to cause a problem though. Lol the pen was fresh, I just kept writing on the board with the bottom of the pen below the tip so the felt wasn't staying saturated. All the pens I was using were brand new, just operator error lol . .

[@jkirkerx]

I learned something from this!

[@michaelschrobilgen3118]

I use to get in a lot of trouble when i threw my hot cell down the 10 board . Now i can show them that it doesnt carry down especially witj my 6-7" ring flare

[@marke219]

Fantastic

[@avos5]

Gonna have to save this video, i get a question from seemingly one person a week about carrydown

[@SirJoelsuf1]

Didn't know Luke was still doin this! To me Thane generally takes off oil in the front and puts it on the back, but depends on the ball and how many bowlers are throwin it. If you got 8 on the pair and like 2 bowlers are throwin thane, you won't notice a difference. If 6 of them are, you MIGHT notice if the thane ball gets to a ROLL where YOUR ball gets to a roll. At the breakpoint. Nowhere else.

[@LukeRosdahl]

Well but that's the point of the video, if 6 bowlers are throwing Black Widow Urethanes, you're not going to notice any more of a difference than if they were throwing reactive because BWU's can't cause carrydown because they flare. I think people are so used to thinking urethane causes carrydown that they just say it without thinking about what they're actually saying lol.

[@homerlex]

Awesome content, tongue twisters and all 😂

[@remington1439]

I’m glad I watched this, because yes I did think of urethane has so…

[@joker3dx]

I’m shocked at how many Pro Shop operators and higher level bowlers don’t understand this concept. I’ve been nearly shanked for throwing my Black Widow Pink in league, so I just stopped bringing it to save the headache.

[@duncanidaho84]

An airplane is on a conveyor belt which moves in the opposite direction. Can the plane take off? Which oil is best for your motor vehicle?? 100% Nitrogen vs "normal" air?? Filling your vehicle up cold vs warm?? Good Luck Luke!!!😁

[@2854Navman]

Learn something new every day.....

[@jnaydich6538]

So with lower differential cores being the largest contributor to true carry down, what causes more “transition” in terms of affecting ball motion, the carry down that is described here or the oil being taken from the front part of the lane (“burnt front ends”)? Is there a visual way to tell when one or the other is occurring?

[@LukeRosdahl]

Surface mostly, surface is going to really chew oil up faster than anything else will. Low flaring balls typically pick oil up in the heads and put it back down on the backend, and high flaring balls pick oil up throughout and really dry the pattern up. Burnt heads are hard to see because your eyes don't really pick the ball up until it hits between the dots and arrows, it's mostly having someone else watching what's going on, OR just judging from your execution. If you feel like you threw a good shot, but the ball is off line at the arrows, probably a pretty good clue something is going on. Track burn and carrydown is pretty easy to see at least.

[@wheellights5406]

I've bowled 288 with polyester (plastic) ill do it just to fuk up the lanes only if someone talks trash before game.

[@johnbuniack5671]

Your oil elongation explanation also explains why those of us who are primarily down and in players have a rougher time bowling with/against those who throw left to right....they're ball is pushing oil towards our track...correct?

[@LukeRosdahl]

Yep, so again, while it's not a TON, it's just enough to mess with your angles and make carry tricky. You go from a firm move and punch through the pins to still hitting the pocket, but more lazy and flat. Then of course when you try to get the ball to finish, then you start going through the nose, etc . .

[@johnbuniack5671]

@@LukeRosdahl Your explanation is EXACTLY what I experienced last season bowling with 2 such bowlers!

[@mauricerogers1980]

My envy Tour has that scratch line

[@frankfrodl243]

Just wondering when we will see a Luke Rosdahl poster on the wall on Chris Barnes show?

[@robvoyles]

Reactive also causes carry down, not sure why people don't understand that. Yes if the ball flares by the time it hits dry board it's dry on dry, no real amount of oil has been carried down the lane BUT....most league players especially the older players throw reactive end over end or not enough rev rate to flare the ball and thus oil is brought down all the way to the pin deck by a reactive ball, reactive is not a dry sponge that absorbs every bit of the oil it touches so ALL balls thrown on the lane bring oil with them especially in non professional league play to one degree or another.

[@LukeRosdahl]

Yes and no. Throwing it end over end doesn't mean a ball that flares just isn't going to flare. If a ball has a high differential, it's going to flare no matter what the angle of rotation or rev rate is, there will just be fewer oil lines on the ball the lower the rev rate is. Yes though, every ball will create a little carrydown because of the bowties, but reactive balls won't create full on heavy carrydown throughout the backend. It'll drop a couple dots as it crosses the bowties and will elongate the pattern, but not very much. But also yes, reactive balls aren't sponges lol, the "well reactive balls absorb oil" thing always gets me. Somehow they absorb fast enough to create no carrydown, but still have oil on them when they get back . . weird.

[@gattsgodai3]

@@LukeRosdahlconsidering the maintenance routine of most league bowlers the ball is probably saturated to the point it can’t absorb oil anymore

[@jamesfriday3716]

I wish we could force anti urethane bowlers to watch your video. I used to be anti urethane. Until I won an attitude control urethane. I am slightly speed dominant . But I have massive axis tilt. So when there is to much oil I'm in for serious over under with any reactive ball. Back in the days before the change in the way lanes were oiled . I carried 190 -210 average. Since I won the attitude control and sanded it to 600. It's opened my eyes. I have Since purchased pink urethane black widow and of course the purple hammer. So Since new oils with only reactive my avg was 178-185 . Now with urethane and reactive 190-205 . I only use the purple hammer as a last resort.

[@robvoyles]

Also our local house we bowl at has now changed the type of oil that is slicker/ different viscosity than other oils we've had in the past and it doesn't evaporate near as much as the oil they used before and the more people you have on a team in league play the more oil brought down by every throw ( it adds up ) as the night goes on the worse hook potential has gotten in our house anyways and now people are having to slow the ball way down and throw straighter = not as much fun when we could actually hook the ball before with less mils of oil, oil that dried up a bit as the night went on and the previous oil was not as slick. All of these new variables add up at our house. they changed the length of the pattern 3 feet longer, went to a slicker oil, more mils of oil that doesn't evaporate and the pin deck is proof as pins slide 12 inches when hit at times and stay standing up. just my rant. lol

[@LukeRosdahl]

That all definitely makes sense.

[@cmihale]

Appreciate this video. Lots of conflicting opinions on this topic. Question, what would be your feedback to how the NU covers (NU Blue, Rattler NU) cause carrydown etc?

[@LukeRosdahl]

They do absorb some oil, but again, the point of the video was that cover type doesn't really matter, it's about the amount the ball flares. Just a little basic logic solves the issue and makes a lot of the conflicting opinions irrelevant, so don't let them trip you up!

[@cmihale]

Yep I get it, that cover means less in this equation than flare (which is more about core, and to some extent layout). But (all else being equal) the NU balls flare less than most reactive balls, and more than urethane. So would that suggest that with the NU balls , we won't see carrydown, but might see pattern elongation?

[@LukeRosdahl]

Yes, layout does also affect it of course, a ball like the NU Blue is right on the edge where it can be drilled to flare more or flare very little, you just asked how the NU covers would cause carrydown, maybe you meant NU balls I guess?? The NU balls as far as differential goes are in IQ Tour, Scorpion Low Flare territory, so with most normal or usual layouts, they'll cause pattern elongation more than anything, but if drilled weaker, they'll have longer bowties, and may not cause actual carrydown, but they'll do a little more than just push the oil an extra couple feet.

[@cmihale]

Appreciate the detailed follow up. And the work you do putting out content on this channel.

[@primaljackal]

If anyone wants to see this in action, just search for videos of Jesper Svensson in slow motion from the Athletic Bowling channel. You can watch the oil ring appear on the Pitch Black in real time.

[@LukeRosdahl]

That's a great point, I forgot about that or I'd have included it in the video

[@primaljackal]

@@LukeRosdahl Heh, also +10 points for mentioning the Hot Cell. RIP red buddy! 🔴

[@Swamprowdy]

A related topic and something JR Raymond addressed awhile back: wipe the oil off the ball, or not. What effect in your opinion would wiping the ball every shot have on the pattern? I wipe mine every shot as a habit to help contribute to a more consistent surface on the ball. When the lanes break down, I may not wipe as often to leave a little oil on the ball help with skid. But what might happen to a pattern if more, or all bowlers wiped the oil off?

[@LukeRosdahl]

For urethane, it'd help the heads hold up longer, and for reactive, it'd help the entire length of the pattern hold up better. However, ball reaction is more consistent when you wipe the ball off. Reactive balls DO absorb oil, but it helps to keep the cover dry and tacky if you wipe off as much as you can rather than letting it sit on there. It lengthens the life of the ball as well.

[@sleddingforoldguys]

I have to admit I had an initial brain fart and thought 350 RPM only 15 oil rings has to be going over same ring at some point.....hence carry down...oh wait M means minute nice information as always need a better marker though. 🙂 maybe too much carry down on your dry erase board.

[@enigmazero8624]

Just last week I had a guy who averages 230-240 in league try telling me it is REQUIRED that there be oil all the way to the gutter even on house shots. His logic was that the pattern must be short because the gutter hooks. It is maddening how much misinformation exists in our sport.

[@travishanson166]

Reading the rule book would dispell his statements.

[@enigmazero8624]

@@travishanson166 well if people did that I wouldn’t have to tell them to stop putting baby powder on their shoes…

[@wheellights5406]

its not required but is usually always the case on a league house shot

[@enigmazero8624]

@@wheellights5406 oil on the outside? Pretty sure most house shots put zero on boards 1-3

[@stephenvance4867]

Since this video is about coverstocks, I have a somewhat related question. Is there a difference between plastic and polyester, or are the two interchangeable. Second, will a difference in the core have a noticeable impact on a plastic ball's motion for a 2-hander?

[@LukeRosdahl]

Plastic and polyester mean the same thing. Plastic balls with cores in them will be slightly stronger than regular plastic, so it really depends on what your goal is. If you're just shooting spares, even if it has a core in it, you'll still be just fine. It'll hook a pinch more, but nothing significant. They do help a little bit when used on drier lanes as a strike ball, but again, it's not a substantial difference.

[@wheellights5406]

all plastic or polyester balls have a house core. pancake. if you've found one with a core please send a link I want 1.

[@stephenvance4867]

@wheellights5406 pretty sure that the Belmo balls have a square block

[@LukeRosdahl]

@@stephenvance4867 That's just aesthetics, and outer core is different from the actual inner core.

[@LukeRosdahl]

@@wheellights5406 There have been several plastic balls made throughout the years that have an actual weight block in them. The Clear Buzzsaw, Taboo Spare, and most recently the Radical Spy I think all have plastic covers and strong cores in them.

[@justinkolodziej5695]

You really want carrydown get a Mix or Axe 😈

[@michaeljamrozy4299]

alot of people just kick the ball return...(I do not endorse that)

[@michaeljamrozy4299]

my .013 diff urethane isn't flaring very much, so maybe I cause carry down

[@LukeRosdahl]

Yep, you'll definitely be causing carrydown with that ball.

[@michaeljamrozy4299]

@@LukeRosdahl That's a 14 lb Purple, so it's not like that's an obscure choice

[@shaunmcisaac782]

You're dismissing oil absorption but it doesn't 100% work that way in the real world. Your 2nd shot with urethane still has a good amount of the oil from the 1st shot. So urethane cover does matter a bit.

[@LukeRosdahl]

Not really, because it still comes down to flare and what I'm specifically talking about. People will use oil absorption as an argument saying that urethane causes carrydown because it doesn't absorb oil, but that has nothing to do with it. If a urethane ball that flares still has oil on it, the only part of the ball with oil on it will only touch the lane where it's oiled, because the backend flare rings will still be dry. If it doesn't flare, most of the oil will have been left on the backend anyway. So the cover type really doesn't matter. Flare is what matters. Doesn't matter if the ball still has oil on it from the first shot or not either because it's going to pick the same amount up off the lane on the following shot anyway. Now if you don't wipe the ball off, reactive balls will absorb some oil and urethane won't, but that just means the urethane ball will pick up less oil on its way down the lane than the reactive ball will, because any oil that gets on urethane has to just evaporate if it's not wiped off and that takes a really long time. That's about the only difference the cover type will make.

[@jessnicholascenterfireecon8382]

If resin balls absorbed oil that fast or that much, they'd absorb the flare rings before you had a chance to throw the ball again. Even in the drier of the two houses I bowl in now, my resin equipment has plenty of visible oil rings after each shot and must be toweled off before the next frame.

[@TheLogicalvoice-wj5yp]

The reason it is causing carry down is that most people don't wipe the oil off their urethane. Why? because it causes it to hook way too much without oil on it. So, they keep oil on the ball and keep throwing it over the same or similar track. This carries the oil down the lane. That is my analysis. on it.

[@LukeRosdahl]

It doesn't matter if you wipe the ball off or not, because even if you wipe the ball off, it's going to get the oil right back on it as it rolls down the lane. Of course you're going to keep throwing the ball in the same part of the lane or at the same marks, but again, it all comes down to whether a ball flares or not. Again, if the part of the ball with the oil on it never touches the lane, it can't cause carrydown no matter if you wipe the ball off or not.