Nope, Exotic is MicroTrax pearl, Garnet is XtremeTrax+ pearl, Xtremetrax was on the Idol Cosmos, so should be a cleaner sharper Gem. MicroTrax is basically NRG and XtremeTrax is basically ReX btw.

Depends on what you're after, if the lanes are getting dry and you need something cleaner, then it's the VEBO, but if you still need some traction and control but the Max is too much, then it's the P2. It's going to be situational, so it's never going to be a straight up mathematical decision.

Not really, but I could maybe? We did the year end recap and picks of stuff on our doggo fundraiser stream, I could always make a shorter video or I could use it as an opportunity to explain some things maybe.

@ i think a shorter video would be great. I love the ball of the year / year in review type videos. I don’t watch the streams but I do watch all your regular videos.

@@LukeRosdahl I watched the stream and that’s exactly what I was looking for. I still think you should do a shorter , stand- alone video. If I missed it , I’m sure others did too. Plus the stream is super long

I think it depends on definitions too, I don't think it necessarily means layout doesn't matter, it means don't worry too much about it. If they average 170, trying to worry about trick layouts or specialized layouts isn't going to help them, because if they were skilled enough that they could take advantage of it, they wouldn't be averaging 170. Just like the lane condition discussion. I think it just means obviously give them something to work with, I get your point that they do need all the help they can get, but layout is the wrong thing to be focusing on or using as a 'crutch' so to speak. Like getting a golf club fit, obviously you want the stuff to fit right and be adjusted for your game, but if you're constantly trying to account for a slice instead of fixing the slice . . that I think is what's being talked about. You're also right about small layout changes . . people don't realize it takes a pretty significant change in layout to produce different results, people who think that a 1/8" difference in pin to pap makes a difference makes me chuckle. So it's not that it doesn't matter, it's just the wrong thing to be obsessing over, and that's what people tend to do when they're grasping at straws trying to improve. But, it's also hard to improve when you don't have the right tools for the job. Kind of a catch 22 at a certain point that chases its tail.

Oh, but my general stance is that ball choice and surface always dominate, layout is a fine tuning tool so as long as you get the ball choice and surface right, work with the concept on the layout. It was always a consideration and piece of the puzzle, but if you get the other details right, the layout was just kind of the cherry on top.

@@LukeRosdahl I'm going to push back, but only a little. I agree, at that range people shouldn't be obsessing over the layout, which is why I said I'm not talking about 5 degrees here, or 3/8” there, or having 5 different layouts etc. But I'll continue with your analogy. A fit in golf to get the right club head, shaft flex etc, is the equivalent to getting the right ball and the right surface. The layout is equivalent to lie angle. Sure, we can't instantly fix a slice, but if you have a golfer who 80% of the time finishes to the right of their target line, you can bend the clubs 2-3* upright and shift their entire "normal range" about 10 yards back toward the center. In bowling, the house is full of bowlers who, with the help of a house shot, are in the pocket for let's say 70% of their normal shots, but their score is dictated by their carry. When they hit the pocket, are they knocking out the corners, I mean that's what it really comes down to. You know and can see ball motion 100 times better than I can, so I'm sure you see all of the time when people's equipment isn't properly getting to the roll phase, or gets their way too early. They've got a decent ball, they're playing a decent line, but the ball either is still hooking when it enters the pocket, or was done hooking 5-10 feet too early. The layout, like the lie angle, can shift the baseline of their "normal operating range" to get that corner out. We'll never be able to fix the 20-30% of their misses that are outside of a certain range. But I see plenty of 160-180 average bowlers, who are in the pocket on a consistent enough basis, but it's the ball motion that's preventing them from striking. Because CARRY is the key to bowling these days. When you hit the pocket only 70% of the time to begin with, you need pocket hits to carry. If you go to Tamers channel and watch Brian, his tilt is sky high. In almost every ball review, you can watch his ball deflect off the head pin, and exit the deck over the 9 pin. He's a significantly better bowler than the people we see on Thursday nights, but I see that type of reaction from dozens of people, where I feel like a layout could drastically alter their ability to carry. Not because they spray the ball everywhere, not because they miss the pocket, but because even when they do hit the pocket, they aren't striking. THAT I think can be addressed with a layout. Even if we drop the percentages, say a bowler hits the pocket only 60% of the time... And they strike on 50% of those pocket hits. A layout isn't going to help you get to the pocket more than that same 60%, but if I can get your strike percentage up from 50% to 60-70% on the times you do hit the pocket... That's the difference between striking 3 times a game, up to 4 times a game. That's a 10 pin jump on average. If that strike happens to come on a double, and now we're threatening a 15 pin jump every game. That adds up, it matters. I don't want to open up a can of worms on surface, because my take is Raymond levels of controversial there, but... I agree surface is more impactful than a layout in theory. Testing proves it, data proves it, in any side by side comparison, scientific method, or even just the eye test.... Unfortunately in the real world, those tests lose meaning after every single shot, and no one talks about it. Surface can fix and solve a lot of problems, but it's a diminishing factor, because the surface depletes on every throw, meaning it's "measured" effect in a test and its "real world" effect are not the same thing. We know that a 2000 finish when you start the night, will be at about 4k before you finish your 2nd game. So it's a crutch that you can't rely on, because it literally disappears as the night goes on. And to make matters worse, we all know damn well people aren't adding fresh surface every week. I'd venture to say 90% of league bowlers aren't touching the surface of their ball, maybe ever. So in the real world, even though I know for a fact that surface matters more than almost anything... I also know, that it's only true in a vacuum and that in a real world test, it's almost a non factor, because the vast majority of those 160-180 average bowlers that we're talking about trying to help... Are NOT adding surface on a weekly or monthly basis. If you're lucky, you can hope to see them once per season before it starts. But you have more pro shop experience than I do, maybe you have a different outlook, or a more competitive scene. How many 160-180 average bowlers were coming in to the shop to buy pads, or pay for surface weekly? Monthly? It's odd that the industry preaches how important surface is. They're right, and maybe it's to try and get people to use it more often... But surface can only be more important than the layout... If people maintain the surface. Otherwise, at some point, we have to be logical and understand that if 80% of the casual league bowlers are all throwing balls at 4700 lane shine, then suddenly maybe layouts are more important than we initially gave them credit for. Every video will show you a side by side of a fresh 2k vs the box finish it a lane shined ball and say "see, look at what surface can do" and they aren't wrong... But those results don't hold up in the real world, over time, because no one is adding a fresh 2k after every shot. Not even after every week. It's just not based on reality. Therefore the importance of surface, while accurate, is predominantly hypothetical in my experience. So rather than address all of that, let me ask you a simple question Luke. In a world where you know damn well 160-180 average bowlers aren't going to be messing with the surface, they're just going to take the box finish and play the season with what they have... NOW how much do you think the layout matters? Because if we're doing a USBC test, and comparing the effect of the lane, the pattern, the cover stock, rA values, surface, vs layout.... Sure, the layout is like 3-5% of the ball reaction. No disagreement there. But do that entire test over again, where every single ball is treated at 4700 (whatever lane shine is these days) and now tell me... What percentage would you allocate to the layout on that experiment? Deep down, which experiment do you actually feel is more indicative of real world application?

Ah see, these are the kind of conversations I love. Somewhat differing opinions, but some good old fashioned casual debate using facts and logic . . You're very correct on the surface. No matter where it starts at, the vast majority of people are going to let everything lane shine and never clean it. I've been fighting the good fight ad nauseum in my videos about surface for years now, and Angel does her maintenance, keeps everything clean and surfaces fresh and it's been really good for her. Most people won't do that though of course, so let's waive surface. My opinion on layouts really comes from drilling hundreds of balls both for myself and for other people. I've drilled multiples of balls with several different layouts, and what it always comes down to the most for me is ball choice. If a ball fits for me, unless I go really abstract on a layout, every layout on that ball will work for me to some extent. If a ball doesn't fit for me, a layout isn't going to save it, just not the right shape for my game. Phaze 2 for example, great fit for me righty, terrible fit for me lefty. I've had probably 5 or 6 P2s righty drilled a few different ways, and 3 or 4 drilled lefty a couple different ways, always looked good for me righty, never fit lefty. Unless you make large changes on layout, ball design and characteristics are going to dominate, and there's also something to be said for drilling a ball in a way that's going to fit with the design intent of that ball. People that buy strong early balls and want them drilled weaker so they can be longer and sharper confuse me . . like if you want a ball that's longer and sharper, buy a ball that's longer and sharper and put a normal layout on it, because you can only stretch ball reaction so far without beginning to counteract or "neuter" a ball to a certain extent. I do drill everything the same (except urethane), and part of that is to maintain some consistency from review to review, but I also have to use this stuff too, so I'm not going to drill a ball a certain way just for a video, but the layout I use fits syms and asyms and the general characteristics of the layout just fit for me. And again, in my experience I've only very rarely had a different layout save a ball or make it usable for me. Most pros only have a few different layouts themselves, they have something that helps create a general look or idea, and then it comes down to picking the right ball, the "match up" game that's so prevalent in today's game. So I do think it's important to find a layout or two that generally fit for your game no matter what you average, but ball choice for me is and will always be king, and if you get that right, you can use the finger method and put some generic or neutral layout on something and you'll be fine, where if you don't match up with a ball, no layout or surface is going to save it the vast majority of the time. Pro Motion will always match up for me, I've had one or two pin down and several different iterations of pin up, pin in ring, etc., they've all looked good and just adjusted the overall ball motion. 3 original Zen's drilled 4 different ways all looked like dogwater though outside of filming for the very first one. Generally speaking I think we're on the same wavelength tho.

@LukeRosdahl we are definitely on the same side as a general rule, I just believe there's more nuance to it, as I alluded to above with the depleting surface not being accounted for, when people talk about its impact on ball motion. Everyone always measures/states as fact the effect of surface on 1-2 shots of a before and after, but we know there are between 33-63 shots thrown on a ball in a 3 game league night, plus another 10ish if we count warm up. At some point your surface is gone and all that's left is ball choice and layout. Since your ball choices are already decided before you get to the lanes, we get to the reality that layout actually ends up being more impactful than anyone wants to admit, again when discussing the 160-180 average bowlers. I'm not saying its more important than surface or ball choice when starting from scratch, at the proshop register, I'm talking about... Okay it's the middle of game 2... You have 1 ball in your hand, and your surface is gone... Now your ball reaction is heavily influenced by the layout you chose, because the layout always stays on the ball. The surface doesn't. They bought the ball, had it drilled, aren't maintaining the surface, and aren't bringing 3 balls to league. If this is the target demographic we're using for the basis of this discussion, then we have to be realistic about the environment we should be comparing and contrasting the results, to accurate assign how effective layouts are for the real world scenarios we see every Wed/Thur. As for you and your layouts, it's important to understand (in my humble opinion) that you and Angel are near center of normal when it comes to stats. You are 7/45, she's 15/60 for tilt/rotation, both fairly rev/speed matched. Granted you are on the low end of what's considered the happy place for tilt, but when you consider those factors, it seems logical that you can get away with most any layout and don't see a large difference in any layouts unless you made some drastic changes for curiosity. (Can't remember if these are your LH or RH specs) But what about myself who had negative 3 to 5 degrees of tilt, and 80 degrees of rotation? My friend I discussed above, has 30 degrees of tilt. So you think either of us can universally throw a "benchmark" layout on a ball and get optimal carry? I mentioned Brian from Tamers reviews, he also spins it like a top, averages over 200 according to his specs, do you think a Storm VLS 4x4x2 would positively or negatively impact his carry percentage? Ultimately, a lot of bowlers who fall into the "standard" range of normal releases, I would agree with JR, or you, the layout probably doesn't make much difference. They can utilize the widest range of layouts and have success with the vast majority, because they're so middle of the road. That gets amplified because pros are also so good, they don't care about the layout, they can add tilt or rotation, speed or revs on command without any hesitation. Of course layouts can be generic for them. Pin up/down would more than suffice. The further you are from that range, the more impactful layouts can become, in my opinion. That also includes rev dominance extremes, speed dominant extremes etc. And I don't mean full blown outliers, just your typical above/below the "average". The people you have drilled for, do you have a... Rule of thumb, when dealing with 20+ degrees of tilt, or less than 8 degrees? Or did that wind up being futile in your opinion? How do you go about choosing layouts for people, as a generic guide?

I still think it's a reaction to the toxicity on the internet. It's too hard to try to make everybody happy, if they won't put any effort in to understand or think about anything, then he shouldn't have to waste his time

@LukeRosdahl the vastness of the internet leans toxic, but I think overcorrecting the other way is also wrong just as proportionally.

True. The people that aren't toxic don't really deserve the attitude right off the rip

Eh, they're all Lucky Strike now, I don't think they're going to have any separation, and Bowlero/Lucky Strike aren't going to have any serious bowling centers, they're all going to be serious business profitable centers.

Well it's too difficult to do something like that for one, but the vast majority of people bowl on house shots and want to see what balls do on house shots, so that's what he's showing. I've been criticized just as often for showing a challenge pattern because, "that's not what I bowl on so how is that helpful??"

@@LukeRosdahl really the only answer to that is do a review where on one lane you have a house shot and the other lane of the pair have a challenge/sport shot and throw a few shots on both lanes. But quite frankly I enjoy your reviews just the way you do them. The best thing is when you make sure to mention that you are not on a house shot nor on something as hard as a sport shot.

I do not care for this guy JR.Raymond, I don’t care for his drama about do I look good in the camera or hey check this out I have books about bowling and you all need them so buy them. So I am taking that by your remark and Luke’s reply that Brunswick is letting Luke now that they will keep sending balls if he bowls on a house shot.. I rather see Luke taken balls on a grade up on lanes to see what the balls can do.

I'd watch Darren Tang's stuff on that subject, he has early timing too and has been working with a coach and I think he's documented some of it.

Ah yeah I'd heard about the CO2 tanks . . everything has gone up a lot period.

It's just business, and every company does it in one way or another. Same with Ebonite buying the other brands YEARS ago, Storm taking Roto, technically they own AMF too btw, then buying Global, then B7 buying Ebonite, etc. Everyone will always try to strengthen their position for the safety, security, and profitability of their business. Bowling is in a lot of trouble right now, and moves like this help brands and companies preserve their own interests and strengthen their position. Businesses that DON'T do this because "it's the right and fair thing to do" go under. Just like my channel, I got off staff with Storm and spent this entire year giving everyone everything they asked for. I've avoided clickbait, really pushing advertisements, I've got more testers reviewing more balls with different layouts and surfaces and all it's done is screw me and screw my channel. If I'd have just "sold out" and done all the promotion and clickbait and everything else, my channel would be in a lot better place and not on the verge of me giving up and moving on. Sometimes you have to jump through hoops you don't necessarily want to so that you can preserve the overall business or endeavor, and that's what they're doing.

@LukeRosdahl Brunswick lost me when they bought ebi and moved production to Mexico. Ah that said I love your channel and content and recommend to anyone who asks because yours are the most complete reviews on KZbin.

Old camcorder that I've used for a while, but it's really great. Sony FDR-AX43 I think is what it is.

Probably not as heavy rolling and chuggy, maybe more like their version of the Mesmerize

How is this ball different than the Jackal Ambush (your wallet)? See what I did there?

@@theb2694 cleaner than the Ambush and more in the midlane. The Ambush was super early and slow reacting. This one definitely reads the mids harder. It's like a Subzero on steroids.

2000 is always a great place to start when you aren't sure. Anything smoother than that doesn't change much, and anything duller than that is going to really change it.

@@LukeRosdahlthanks. First two games out of box was very unpredictable and struggled to lock in the hook. Added some surface and boy did it make a difference.

Yep, don't disagree at all.

I think this one is even a bit cleaner, but it's also slower, so you don't have to give the pocket away so much with this one. The Effect is so fast that you have to give it some room, but this one with a little surface is kind of in BW3.0 territory.

Yeah . . mine needs to be hit every single game. Just a marble

Lol his wallet. I couldn't bowl with anything in my pockets.

Yeah, have to wear the new "edge" off like most products in general

Just need to talk to the people at the bowling alley about setting something up

@LukeRosdahl ok awesome thank you