LVO Preview: Plastic Solar Auxilia & My Thoughts

[@TheOuterCircle]

Gorgeous range, but some weirdly dissimilar sculpts in there, but I'm more worried about the price. If it comes in at the same sort of price point as the rest of the range, this will be too expensive by a country mile. Edit: Just so I don't have to type it again, when I talk about Malcador squadrons, I'm referring to the Tercio system where you can get a command tank and multiple squadrons of Leman Russ tanks for a single heavy support slot totaling 10 tanks with a buff on the command vehicle, vs the Malcador in a squadron of 3.

[@sonicwingnut]

My sympathies for the stupid Australian prices - but the UK prices will at least be alright I guess - I think I paid £103 at my 25% off local game shop for the Astartes battle group, it'd be £108 at anyone doing the more common 20% off. I thought the same as you with this one, that for anyone starting this army it's probably a 3-box purchase so £324 for 75 infantry, 6 tanks and 3 walkers isn't bad. It looks pretty close to 2000pts popping that lot into New Recruit and estimating a couple of hundred for the 3 sentinels. That's without adding optional wargear too. Obviously getting hold of 3 of them is another matter. Especially if 40k players are after them too.

[@vostroyanfirstborn9834]

Looks really bad though compared to the Old World box sets with 1250 points and the full core rules. Literally 3 or so more units and you are at the 2k points level to play Old World. You would need multiple of this box set and expensive FW models to do the same and you still don't even have the core rules.

[@Jojonogogo]

Sorry for it man. Living in Canada means that I’m getting it at like $240 and maybe trading in a model I have to make up the difference. Btw do you think that this Auxilia box would make a good allied force? I run iron hands and was considering getting one box of this for allied, what do you think?

[@SteelStorm33]

they are good enough, i like the charme of the old infantry more, and i always disliked the tanks, not a big fan of trims everywhere. solar auxilia suffer from the two rules sections gw never fixed since the beginning of 40k, ap and tanks.

[@joshuaginn792]

Pardon the spam, I already commented…but had a question related to my post. You’re very skilled at design and printing. Do you think you could design an easy insert for Leman Russ sponsons? Basically a male part the glues to the inner wall of the sponson yet is recessed/has enough relief to add a magnet. The other magnet would be invisible on the other side of the Russ Hull. There are vids with sprue and green stuff where they bulk the void in the sponson and add a magnet, but IMO, these are not very elegant. I have a pile of FW Mars/Alphas I was literally about to start on (pile of shame from a DKOK project I stalled on years ago). With this release I was hoping to dual purpose the models.

[@vostroyanfirstborn9834]

I like how they can't give them 40k rules in order to keep 40k a 'tight and healthy game system' (which it's not'). I guess rules for a Volkite turret on a Leman Russ would bloat and break the game, yet they can release half a dozen or so overpowered new Primaris units every year.

[@Dimes607]

One could easily use those in 40k

[@vostroyanfirstborn9834]

Probably but their mendacious excuses are laughable

[@jj_see_film]

Because Lore means nothing I guess

[@Dimes607]

@@jj_see_film proxy them as guard with an industrial theme and they work perfect

[@sonicwingnut]

I mean to be fair we can't use space marines as an example now since literally all the heresy stuff and half the firstborn stuff got cut for them in 40K. Tbh though I'd see that statement as a tacit admission that promoting all those heresy units as 40K compatible then squatting them in 10th was not a popular decision, so at least they're being clear about it here.

[@Pers0n97]

IF (HUGE if) they end up being in the same spot than the new MK6 and 3 and are cheaper than what the 40k equivalents are, they would make for a cool base for a custom Imperial Guard custom regiment. Just replace the helmets with something a bit more generic. (also they better add the Malcador in the 40k Astra Militarium codex again).

[@vernonator1935]

the article specifically mentioned that none of these are getting 40k rules.

[@DominatorLegend]

The Malcador is still in the IG index.

[@Pers0n97]

@@DominatorLegend Cmon now. Indexes, legends all that shit is not worth the paper it's printed on. I'm talking bringing it in the mainline codex to be properly supported. Instead of making up the mediocre and obviously missing a sprue Dorn, they should have made a platic Malcador.

[@nietname2468]

​@@Pers0n97 not gonna happen.

[@kapitanbeuteltier5889]

But that is pretty irrelevant as "dude/dudette with rifle" work as great proxies for IG-Infantry. And many tanks have (roughly) fitting equivalents as well in 40k.

[@robiodopio]

Judging by the article, they call the HQ guys the line command, like the squad you can buy at the head of a tercio. As such, I’m holding out hope for having a true banner in a real man’s command squad so I can actually make use of some of the Solar Auxilia transfers that I struggled to acquire

[@robiodopio]

I went and checked and I look to be right since the right words were used in the WarCom article, I am breathing a MASSIVE sigh of relief

[@lukeeaton2364]

The malcador looks great, it IS the aesthetic of the Solar Auxilia, they can be taken in squadrons of 3 as a single HS choice, and check the rulebook about sponson LoS, because it is absolutely not limited to firing in the 'side arc' as you say, and can absolutely fire forward.

[@notnubilous3804]

I do like that they cut down on the greebles from the resin Aux. They had just too much going on for their size. This trimmed down version just feels better.

[@Cadars]

Solar auxilia malcador can be taken in Squadron of 3, its only militia that do not have them in squadron's

[@TheOuterCircle]

I'm referring to the Tercio system where you can get a command tank and multiple squadrons for single heavy support slot, vs the Malcador in a squadron of 3.

[@Cadars]

@@TheOuterCircle oh didn't register that part :)

[@_OliverGrey]

Personnaly i love new plastic solar, always wanted to build an army of them because in my eyes they look better then the guard, but always hated resin.

[@Nerdgainz357]

The article says the velitari kit will come with volkites and axes, so it’s a dual kit for sure. I’m getting 4 of this box, 4 boxes of the velitari and 2 Malcador. Can’t wait!!

[@williamford3605]

This was a surprisingly refreshing take on the SA. Very funny to see you point out the 3D wheel mishap, I never would have caught that 😂

[@Aaron-oy4wk]

Kinda worried the release is going to flop due to pricing then GW will take it as "I guess no one wants non-space marines in 30k".

[@SteelStorm33]

as a guard player i want to have auxilia in 30k, but there are two problems. legions draw people to 30k, because 40k space marines are shit, you get your true dark angels, blood angels etc in 30k. so legions are the main attraction. second is that auxilia is shit ruleswise and no fun even for your legion opponent. the second thing is easily fixed, gw just have to do it, the heavy sentinel is one step on this road. auxilia in plastic can be a nice addition for many mainly legion players, in lore many legions worked with auxilia and even formed bonds, but noone wanted to pay fw resin prices for basically no points on the field. so plastic auxilia might shift that too.

[@JamesSerapio]

I'd be willing to bet they are on the new 28mm bases that the eldar use now

[@DMKA94]

GW does sell the cadian combat patrol which has a command squad, 20 infantry, 1 sentinel and artillery for £95. If you removed the artillery and included the two vehicles, hopefully costing around £125-£150

[@reallylionbastard]

I bet this will be another fomo box 😢

[@TheOuterCircle]

I think that's a likely price point for the UK.

[@reallylionbastard]

@TheOuterCircle just add a zero for aus right?

[@sleeplepeople7313]

@@TheOuterCirclewhich is fine… until you realise you’ve got to get 3-5 boxes to even form a core force. This’ll be expensive……

[@NapoleonicWargaming]

​@sleeplepeople7313 if that's your problem, you're in the wrong hobby son ;)

[@maliceharding4668]

The new hunter killer missile looks more like an m48 recoil less rifle shell than a missile, as in the back half is just a protective casing for the motor and fins while the warhead is just to top half

[@DominatorLegend]

I was thinking exactly that. Perhaps they were even like soviet RPG-7.

[@itsallpointless6501]

Also no chains, which sucks, I think that was part of the appeal, the low tech high tech clash if you get me.

[@sanchez444]

@TheOuterCircle - Totally agree on the comment regarding the differences in design philosophies here(8:00-8:20) , I'm not convinced however that people like myself who leaned more towards the hand sculpted - scale model designed philosophy will ever be satisfied with any of the new "remasters". So my question I suppose is, with the differences in model design philosophies becoming more and more apparent with each new release for the HH from FW what's the main factor influencing these departures? If some of the original hardcore sculptors are still working there why the shift, is the medium change from hand sculpted to digital that significant, or is it the background of the sculptors? I was recently shocked to learn that apparently Simon Egan who did the Krieg range worked on the recent Jaghatai model which kinda threw me for a loop to be honest, is it the suits in FW that are actively blocking that Bligh era of sculpting from being approved or is it just something we can't even really know at this point?

[@tunguskalumberjack9987]

At the 4:00 minute mark, he reminds me of the Cave Troll from Jackson’s LOTR Fellowship Of The Ring when he gets wounded enough to stop fighting, puts his finger in his mouth, and looks around confusedly just before he falls dead on Frodo. That was oddly specific 🤔

[@TheOuterCircle]

Perfect analogy.

[@tunguskalumberjack9987]

@@TheOuterCircle Thanks!

[@thefatrat7486]

This is why i collect them in legion imperialis. You get 4 sentinels, 8 ogryn, and a bunch of infantry for 50 bucks.

[@Gorketh]

The GW community / customer base is obsessed with plastic. If something is plastic they love it, if it is resin they hate it. Great example is the new Epic Space Marines; "undercuts", "the multi face injection moulding machines are more expensive", "just convert / cut the extra bit off lol", "you won't see it while playing". Where as the AT Dire Wolf got panned for being resin, but it is a neat kit. Use some brass rod to extend the pistons and cut off tabs and you can easily repose it. "Oh, muh brass rod and cutting tabs is too hard" says the community that kit bash single plastic models from four different large box set releases.

[@calebnordmeyer4131]

What a stupid complaint. Of course people like plastic more, it requires a quarter of the work at half the price. No dealing with customer service to get replacement parts because of unsalvageable mold slips, no boiling models to unwarp them, no requirement to scrub them with soapy water before painting. Get real.

[@Gorketh]

@@calebnordmeyer4131 did you read what was written or what you wanted to see? Why were the community simping over LI space marines with obvious defects but outright reject anything in resin? If you like plastic that's fine, I prefer metal miniatures. My point is the community accept poor quality in plastic because it's plastic but reject good quality resin (or metal) because it is resin (or metal).

[@combatwombat2134]

I usually don't like anything that stems away from the Sentinel style (the one circa 2,000 not the original completely open one) but you know what? I actually really dig the Sentinel. It has heavy Iron Harvest vibes and I think the way its moving (like its really trudging forward, heavy and industrial) looks awesome.

[@gamedude412]

It’s like pimp my ride kidnapped the leman Russ tank and walker

[@bradleyjones1515]

I think the HK missiles might be an RPG type thing where the whole tube remains but the warhead gets launched

[@RedSampler]

yeah i think so too.

[@SteelStorm33]

but it doesnt look like that

[@punec]

​@@SteelStorm33I think its the paintjob. I assume its like the HK missiles on marine tanks its just these are designed a bit differently but I do think the paintjob is the culprit for them looking derpy

[@bradleyjones1515]

@SteelStorm33 I think it does and its what the model suggests is true. It certainly is more plausible than the ring at the end trying to fit through the mount. With that ring at the end its sort of like an AT-4 tube with the warhead exposed

[@thomasmann9727]

On 12:20 The ends on the missiles could just be some rubber covers for the rocket engines. Well we will see this when there are pictures from behind available.

[@fhmcateer]

Isn't the Demolisher cannon quite good? Str 13 AP3, Ordnance, Sunder, Brutal(3)?

[@TheOuterCircle]

On a 2.5" template with scatter it hits two guys on a decent shot. Against skirmish units, averages a single one.

[@fhmcateer]

@@TheOuterCircle right yeah, the 3" blast being the worst if the bunch. Kind of surprising given its range is not great you'd have hoped for 5" template for it. Sad times

[@Mittens_Gaming]

I really love the look of almost everything. Not sure about the heavy sentinel. Whag my heart wants and what my pocket can afford are different. Even in American Dollary-Doos this is going to be a decent chunk of change. Still want like 3k points of them though.

[@SteelStorm33]

i dont like the model, but the idea of a heavy sentinel is very fitting

[@monkeyinapanzer]

The Malcador being the odd man out is just kind of funny. It won’t be in the box. Won’t really have much of a point in the heresy And in 40K where it does still have rules the Dorn is just demonstrably better. Kind of surprising they bothered to redo it in plastic and then not actually do anything for it to help it along.

[@fhmcateer]

I mean, rules change. It's better looking than the Russ by a country mile and presumably sells well enough in resin for GW to invest in plastic moulds

[@SPNKr02]

It's got -1ap, 18 wounds, can take 3 autocannons, (40k rules) And i honestly prefer it to the dorm looks wise.

[@cerohero1]

My only real negative on the sculpts is that the posing is not quite as dynamic. They're a bit less detailed but I actually really like the overall look

[@ianhd9396]

Can marines take malcadors like in 1.0?

[@fhmcateer]

For the Malcador, it doesn't have a 'best' armour facing. It's AV13/13/12. So the idea is to angle it and shoot the casement gun, front gun and one of the side guns at something. For the Solar Auxilia, Independent Fire Control allows you to shoot at something else with a battle weapon at -1BS. Admittedly, for the Solar Auxilia, if you take the Flare Shield then your Front AV goes back to quasi-AV14, so it matters in that case if you want to pay the points

[@TheOuterCircle]

It's literally built with a flare shield in the images, just fyi.

[@fhmcateer]

@@TheOuterCircle totally, and it looks pretty cool. But it's an extra 25 points to take it - hard to say if it's worth it? For the militia of course they have no such luxury and can't take the fancy force field so have less to worry about when it comes to AV front vs side. Until they get glanced and explode due to third-line at least

[@egnaroelprup]

Might be that they're on 28.5's if i recall some new guard and kasrkin are on those size bases

[@joaquinarias4915]

The dracosan front panel is the exact same, but in the FW paint job they have it metallic paint as opposed to the Matte grey they’ve gone for here.

[@dragonofdragons1720]

I hope we get plastic admech soon

[@cesargimenez1288]

I have a full resin FW Solar Auxilia army and I dislike the veletaris (plastic) and the command squad as well, now, I have 3.5k points and it was almost 3k$ too, so if the plastic it’s going to be as expensive as the resin, I see no point at all

[@redhandsoftheviii588]

I really like these model, im gonna be honest this army have always been something i couldn't afford The sential looks rather funky but the leman russ looks great but im extremely biased about the russ tank. I fully agree about the price, im dreading the actual price

[@joshuaginn792]

What are the odds this Leman Russ is “cheaper” because it has no sponsons? Thats the real incentive to keep buying the 40K version for 40k. With power:points in 40K the sponsons “upgrades” are free.

[@polskastrong8558]

I'd love a stl upgrade kit for the trackguards that look like the ones on the Aurox!

[@HonoreOtter]

Where can we find your publicly available 3-D files?

[@TheOuterCircle]

Just look for Adamus on Cults 3d

[@Tosicc567]

The armoured sentinal looks steampunk as fuck, I love it minus the slapped on rockets.

[@Orlunu]

A till is pretty much a good fit for a mine plough, if we just say it's that rather than a real dozer.

[@derionone]

To be honest hope they are bigger scale so i cam use em for necromunda... regular 40k new cadians are so tiny compared to old bulky ones ... guess they dont feed em the same like they did on old cadia

[@Lochagos]

if this is sold at £125 i think it will be a decent kit, but I'm just not sold on it after your thoughts

[@element7202]

I could see this being the same price as the last heresy battle group

[@Dwarficus]

I will not lie, depending on price, I might pick them up and use them as Steel Legion in 40k. I do very much like the look, but, as is always the case when talking about Games Workshop, we need to know the price. It's always nice to know ahead of time if I'll need to sell a kidney to be able to afford the plastic/resin crack.

[@Balevolt]

That dozer wouldn't look like that three days into service, the crew would modify it with scrap so fast. I will get plastic Malcadors though it is ny favorite tank and where about to play 7.5

[@walt_man]

Besides the absolute deletion of details on the Auxilia, that HK tube missile might have been a communication error. Possibly the launcher mount, and the ringed tube at the end are meant to be one piece? With the missile being loaded into the front. Still with a hole at the end of exhaust but now painted incorrectly? Or they just dumb lol

[@ghostjager8190]

I would loved to see some Charonite Ogyrns instead of the Steampunk sentinel that looks like its taking a shit

[@Xarl-VIII]

if its limited releases im not gonna bother, the scalpers will just buy it all up

[@TwoHands95]

Isn't the gun elevation and depression blocked by the armor sticking out on the Malcador, or am I missing something?

[@RedSampler]

what is with this ''applying logic to 30k/40k'' all of a sudden''?🤣

[@Hatypus]

16:10 So, I'm actually going to defend GW here, but it looks like they wanted to make the dozer blade reminiscent of several types of mine plow. Just, they've put the plow blade-esque bits on a broad dozer blade... Bit sad about the reduced exoskeleton stuff, but it's probably fair for painting convenience. I'm not a fan of the Aethon heavy sentinel though, still think the it's a bit of a weird looking ugly thing though. The weapon hardpoint being on top rather than underneath or mounted to the lower side of the cabin makes it look kinda... dopey? To me.

[@RedSampler]

if it was underneath the cabin the D jokes would be all over the place.

[@Hatypus]

@@RedSampler -_-

[@RedSampler]

@@Hatypus i once made a great gargant for my local geedubs store, and had the nerve to make a belly gun.. but that was too low even when it was shown on art and pictures as well, so couple weeks later they had the belly gun removed because of comments. (this was about 15 years ago) the comments about the centurions having TT guns , even the melta arrangement on the rogal dorn tank has some people in this community rilled up.. these are the people who think a spacemarine in a spacemarine joke is still funny. (when its a spacemarine in a tank or flyer there is no problem,but put in in a walking tanksuit oh noes..) some people whom think they are the gatekeepers of the hobby, some have their own self worth and or identity too much attached to the hobby. so yeah i don,t blame geedubs for keeping it like this.

[@Hatypus]

@@RedSampler I meant more like how it is mounted on the 40k sentinel. I thought that was kinda clear.

[@RedSampler]

@@Hatypus ah i see you changed your original comment ..now. i still don,t get where you want to put the other gun then as the legs won,t allow that. but oh well.

[@tabe8850]

4 Castellax, 9 Thallax, 1 Thanatar. 1 ARLATAX (8 years and counting). HQ model with bits. That is the only box set that will salvage the 2.0 crap. I honestly want them to stop supporting the game and we all go WFB with our own rules.

[@garrisonkunst3645]

But, hey, at least the BA release looks pretty good and it's more useful than the SoH

[@Picassoturtlenumba5]

Just gonna say, I love your new intro…..the old one sounded like cows.

[@Jackstalkerfear]

Those hunter killer missiles look silly, fully exposed just waiting to be shot. Put em in a gosh darn launcher tube already GW

[@captainferrite]

28mm base probably

[@Sommeill]

All of the "I can finally play Solar Auxilia" people are in for a rude awakening once they get a game or two in.

[@itsallpointless6501]

Shame all the bolts are missing, they look less steam punk now, also the volkites are all being held underneath, no more little stubby handle on the side, bit gutted tbh.

[@TheOuterCircle]

I didn't even notice the little handle until you mentioned it, now I can't unsee it.

[@DoddyIshamel]

I hate the mistakes rhey make in tge article. Like Veltaris are apparently armed with Calivers and the Assault tank and strike tank don't have different rules ...

[@Hurricanelive]

This would have been great... 4 or 5 years ago.

[@TheOuterCircle]

This is a perfect 1.0 force, isn't it?

[@MrKoalaburger]

OK with the missiles. Nothing in Warhammer makes sense as far as weapons go. I think the gun ban has really warped the designers perception of how firearms and such work in general lol

[@ghostjager8190]

Another one in the UK or am I missing something?

[@danielfarrell3534]

Gun ban??

[@magicianman534]

I always thought the whole napoleonic steampunk vibe was kind of weird to begin with, so I think they benefit a lot from having their look streamlined a bit.

[@masonmcelroy8125]

This is definitely an army where you should just 3D alternative models and use those. Even more than Marines, you need soooo many duplicate models that 3D printing makes a lot of sense. I know you probably couldn't use it at events, but sheesh... the cost to build a "real" GW army would be absurd.

[@buckethead5454]

I have a theory about the vehicles I think they really like doing them they're just not allowed to release them for 40k so they have to dump them on the Horus Heresy instead

[@SteelStorm33]

they clean the forgeworld stuff up and release whats good in plastic.

[@jamesthelamenter5464]

A actually good idea by GW ? this is rare to say the least. 😮

[@cawsking555]

as far that i can tell its just upcaled of the models of imperalaus

[@Ed-ss1uh]

Somewhere leakycheese is shaking his head in disapproval lol

[@Instar_nine]

All weapons are usable, it comes down to your opponents force and how you play. As most armies are only legions currently, with many playing a net list meta , they appear not so good but will shine via different armies as more plastic become available creating more variation. Its early days yet. and people need to experiment more as there opponents forces change over time.

[@margaretwood152]

▶3:59🤤= "Uhhhmmm, No Boss, I dididn't Finish Da The FA(Q)CK for Da *_HERESS HORISSY_* Game....D'Duh-Did I miss my Dudd-line❓"

[@LordoftheSwarm]

I've worked with the Assault Breacher Vehicle that has an even bigger "dozer blade" on the front with even more exaggerated tines... I second Macca. We had to modify the design to increase the life of the equipment.

[@thewizardmf175]

Was waiting for this ❤

[@mersenniusprime]

You're not crazy, I saw the exact same thing with the radio operator. I really don't now how that model made it all the way to photography without anyone pointing it out.

[@terrysaunders7107]

Thanks for the review. Man, I do like the idea of malcadors. Yet those prices are crazy, 5k for auxila army or maybe 300 for a custodes force. At those prices better just buy some Titans.

[@benjaminjones2956]

Of course I join with 30 seconds to go 😂

[@IVIaskerade]

I'm really sad about the veletaris, they lost so much detail

[@Theredsunrising]

The turret is way too small to fit those weapons

[@Miguel-qg5zb]

Your audio quality is bad, change your microphone

[@SteelStorm33]

solar auxilia suffer from the two rules sections gw never fixed since the beginning of 40k, ap and tanks. ap is a fundamental problem, ignoring characteristics of your profile is not balanceable and never fun, worsen stats is the better alternative. since the beginning of 40k armor saves worse than 3+ didnt exist. giving a weapon an ap of 4, you need to consider all units and armies in the game to figure out how balanced this is, in a changing game not possible. but giving it an ap of -1 it affects all units the same, thats the same thing as gw doesnt give out plain rerolls anymore, just rerolls of 1, because a full reroll isnt equally good on every role. full rerolls get better the worse a roll gets, for a 5+ you reroll 1-4s, on a 2+ you only reroll 1s. with rerolling only 1s you reroll the same amount of dice in both cases, despite the percentage increase in successfull hits is different. you want consistency like this to not produce uninspected results, like auxilia effectively dont have any armor save. rending and breaching are attempts to fix this issue, remove all ap and let only rending, breaching and anti armor exist, because this is the situation for space marines, but not for auxilia. tanks in 30k dont have the problem being outclassed by monsters because of not being oneshotable. tanks blow up by single shots, thats the whole problem. armor starts at 10, so a space marine can punch it to death with his bare hands, thats not armor. armor values are way too low. a spartan with flare shield feels more like a super armored mighty land raider should feel like. there are three categories of weapons when it comes to armor, the whole point of tanks is, that they cant be harmed by infantry and only fear specialized weaponry. so the first category are infantry weapons, no bolter, heavy bolter, rotor cannon, volkite etc. should be able to penetrate tanks. its debateable but armor should start where its only penetrateable by autocannons onwards, so a minimum armor value to be barely harmed by str7 weapons, thats 13. the second one are anti armor/material weapons, lighter ones like autocannons, the trusty lascannon and sorts of missiles plus all the tank mounted truly big guns with good chances of harming tanks. the third cathegory are infantry based anti tank weaponry. lascannon hss are out anti tank gun emplacements, so melta guns are our hand held rpgs. these weapons should be aweful, with a low chance, but with a chance to harm a tank within close range. a single 15pts gun shouldnt be able to kill a tank in 9/10 times, it needs to be the other way round, a melta should have a 10% chance to harm a tank at most. we have melta squads in 30k, a ten squad of melta guns will still result in a pretty high chance of deleting a tank like it should be and 5 squads are still pretty relyable against light tanks like predators and transports like rhinos. so up armor to 13 for every tank and do 14 front for leman russes, 15 all around for land raiders with flare shields still give +1 on front and rhinos 13 all around and we have tanks in the game the first time in gw history. the second problem with tanks is the damage tabel, it sucks hard and is a relic from 2nd edition 40k or even older. just delete it, we dont need it anymore. immobilized, shaken, weapon destroyed, you can stunlock tanks in uselessness and the chance of just blowing up is awefull, everything not tank laughs at tanks because of this. but we still need to determine if a hit does nothing, some damage, or is vital. there are many options, my spontanous idea is to role a dice, like 1-4 nothing happens, 5 regular hit 1 hull point dmg, 6 crit 2 hull points damage, with the added bonus of +1 for every point of overpenetration. for example, lascannon shoots a rhino, it hits, it roles a 3 for pen, but reroles into 5, 14 is equal or more than 13, it penetrates, we role a 5 for damage, ad the +1 for overpenetrating by 1 point, result is a six, so 2 hull points lost. hull points should also go up, roughly double of what tanks now have, mathhammer for better results.

[@fhmcateer]

Firstly, the Leman Russ tank has AV of 14/13/10 already. For the Damage Table chart - it is kind of outdated in a way, but if you really dislike it you can take tanks that ignore large parts of it: the Malcador tank and the Land Raider both have Reinforced, so ignored all Crew Shaken results and partially ignore Crew Stunned (they can't move but still fire at full BS). For weapon destroyed, this edition the controlling player CHOOSES what weapon is destroyed - so load up on battle weapons (not pintle mounted ones) and destroy your weakest ones first. For the Solar auxilia russ, you could destroy up to 2 weapons (front lascannon, co-ax autocannon) before you destroy the vanquisher cannon, for example. For the Malcador, you can have up to 3 battle weapons that aren't your main cannon to absorb Weapon Destroyed Results. If you are afraid about Immobilised - it can definitely suck for transports. For the Malcador it can also be pretty bad. The Leman Russ cares less thanks to its turret. For the idea about armour starting at 10 and it 'should be invulnerable to infantry weapons': I'd say yes and no. On the Leman Russ it's true that its rear AV is 10, so boltguns can glance it on a 6. Honestly I think that's reasonable. Bolts are small mass-reactive warheads. Lasguns can't pen that. In the case of the Malcador and Russ, a heavy bolter (Str5), rotor cannon (Str3), and Volkite Culverin (Str6) cannot penetrate the front or sides of a Malcador or a Russ. A Volkite Culverin can glance the rear of a Malcador on a 6+ and can glance a Russ's rear on a 4+ (pen on 5+). A heavy bolter cannot pen a malcador at all, and can only glance a Russ's rear on a 5+ (pen on 6+) Rotor cannon can't do anything to either tank, it can't glance AV10 I don't personally have an issue with ONLY the weaker rear armour of Imperial Army tanks being able to be penetrated by some of the heaviest marine-portable weapons available. This is before we even start talking about the all-around AV14 of the Land Raider. For Melta weapons, the efficiency of a melta gun vs a tank lies entirely in getting into Melta range. You said "a single 15pts gun shouldn't be able to kill a tank in 9/10 times [ ... ] a melta should have a 10% chance to harm a tank at most". For one thing, a single melta gun cannot kill a tank 9/10 times. Against AV10, with BS3+, you're looking at a 66% chance of hitting. Then if that meltagun is within 9", it needs to roll 2+ to glance and 3+ to pen, which is practically guaranteed = a sum total of 66% chance of glancing and 64.8% chance of penetrating. The melta shot then needs to roll 5+ to Explode the tank, a 33% chance = 21.6% chance. So a melta gun can kill a tank roughly 1/5 times when shooting at AV10. Against, say AV13 side armour? This chance is 66% chance to hit plus a 6+ Armour roll plus a 5+ to explode the tank = 66%, modified down to 11%, modified down to 3.67%. Not very likely at all. But hey, let's assume the worst-case scenario: oh dear, a 10-man heavy support squad of marines with multi-meltas has somehow ended up within 12" of your rear armour without having to move (or maybe they are Death Guard and slowly walked up 7" to get into range and you did nothing about it). What will happen? - 10 multi-meltas fire, hitting on 3+, rerolling due to twin-linked = 1.1 misses on average. -- 8.9 multi-melta hits then roll 2d6 each for armour penetration against AV10 = glances are guaranteed (1+1+Str8 = 10), pens are practically guaranteed (requires a roll of 3 on 2D6). Rolling double 1 on 2D6 = 3% chance, so pens are 97% likely to happen. If we translate that to 8.9 shots, we get an average of 0.267 hits that glance, and 8.633 penetrating hits, stripping away 8.9 Hull Points. --- This kills practically any tank apart from super-heavies outright even before we think about Explodes! results, and super-heavies will likely die from rolling 8.633 times on the vehicle damage chart with a +2 modifier due to Melta's AP1 ---- (for the sake of ease I'm rounding 8.63 up to 9 penetrations, which to inflict the Explodes! result means you are rolling 9D6, looking for 5+ to add an additional 1D3 wounds = 2.7 5+ rolls on average, which together generate an average of 5.4 extra wounds.) Of course I don't know any super-heavies with AV10... ----- if the multi-meltas were beyond 12" range, then they roll only 1D6, needing a 2 to glance and a 3+ to pen against AV10. In this case nothing happens for 17% of the time, glances are another 17% and pens are 68% likely. Across an average of 8.9 hits, this equals 1.48 hits that do nothing, 1.48 hits that glance, and 5.93 hits that pen. This removes 7.41 Hull points killing any tanks besides super-heavies before we consider Explodes! results from the pens. ------ so in short, yeah a full squad of Marine Multi-Meltas will kill non-superheavies with AV10 from 24" away. But this is the WORST CASE scenario. A more likely scenario is 24" shooting with multi-meltas against AV14 because you recognise the threat. This requires the multi-meltas to roll 6+ to GLANCE on 1D6 = 1.6 glancing hits, removing 1.6 hull points on average from 10 marines. Not a great return on investment, and the Leman Russ won't really care. ------ lascannons are a bigger problem of course - Str9, Sunder and much longer range. But in summary, the maths to me don't scream "armour values are way too low". Also, infantry have been and continue to be a real threat to tanks in any environment other than wide open terrain

[@TheOuterCircle]

Both of you have good points, many of which pop up in my vehicles video which is in the pipe pending community poll when I drop it.

[@chasethedane9784]

sentinel looks crap

[@sagacity1071]

Kinda agree... would have preferred the new cadian style with gold trim and older armor

[@Xii.legionary]

Bring back the 6th edition plastic kit

[@jw7500]

I don't mind this thing honestly. Don't hate it, but don't love it either.

[@myrar8708]

I don't like it either. Most annoying that it is in the battle group box

[@reallylionbastard]

The ed-209 is the future of law enforcement 😂

[@PointyPaints]

but you said Salamanders sucked? 30 mins of bitching yet again. colour me shocked!

[@TheOuterCircle]

What kinda crack are you on? Cos it looks good and cheap.

[@andrewhannaford9300]

HH, love the models, hate the game

[@XVI_Legion]

40k, hate the models, hate the game, hate the lore.......

[@andrewhannaford9300]

sorry, I should be more specific, hate the rules@@XVI_Legion