Machine Rebuilding: Measuring Wear in a Lathe Bed and Building up the Saddle

[@petermetaxas9696]

Great video. I have watched it a few times over the last 5 years. This time, June of 2023, I thought about how worn might the vertical mill be, and will it make that much difference if it is. I guess it's a matter of how far you want to go down the rabbit hole. Again great video, now off the see how bad my 1974 Okuma LS is.

[@j.b.6855]

Long time subscriber that doesnt post much. I am not a machinist. But I do own a lathe, a jewellers lathe. I still find your video's fascinating Keith even though I likely at my age will never use one of the machines you own. Your honesty and enthusiasm for the work is addictive and I look forward to every video you produce. Thanks for all the work that goes into them.

[@alyoder6112]

Kilz z y

[@victoryfirst2878]

Years ago my friend slipped and dropped the saddle on his foot. Can we say many broken bones that took two years to heal. The buddy system really makes a safe senorio for the machine and the person for sure. Nicely stated the safety factor Keith.

[@millomweb]

You should choose more competent friends ;)

[@victoryfirst2878]

@@millomweb I will have to take your advice Sir. Thanks

[@patrickroeill8746]

Always a pleasure to watch and listen to you work especially when you have Richard King helping you out

[@leiferickson9666]

I am a retired machinist, and I find your channel very interesting. Sorry about the scraping remarks I made earlier, everyone learns going forward in life, and I commend you on your commitment to machining, and machine repair.....🍁leif

[@nightster6378]

I worked with a guy about 25 years ago he was in his mid 20's and trained in one of the bigger machine tool companies, I think Giddings & Lewis - Frazer as a fitter and bed scrapper. He then worked self employed and did a beautiful job with an angle grinder though he could do it with scrappers if he wanted. This was on all types of large machine tools. He had his own personal pattern he scrapped to. He had also started using lasers to get alignments.

[@duobob]

Good work and a solid strategy, Keith. Richard has done this work for decades, listen to him and ignore the noise. Your descriptions are excellent, just not what some expected...

[@FredMiller]

Very informative segment Keith. A process a lot of us have never heard of much less seen. Thanks for sharing your adventure with us... Fred

[@MrWaalkman]

At Saturn, we had an old Monarch lathe that most of the toolers adored (and getting any two toolers to agree on what day of the week it was would take half the day, three fistfights, and two committeeman calls before it was settled). I was one of the controls engineers that covered GA back then, and I got a call from an electrician asking me to come out and take a look at it. The drive was acting up and the spindle was barely turning. But getting there, I noticed that there were far more electricians attending this "breakdown" than could reasonably be expected, and most of them had some sort of a silly Stepford grin on their faces. I knew that something was up... We opened up the control panel, and taped to the door inside was an honest to god BLUEPRINT! (faded green, but still). I've been doing this in one form or another since '75, and they were the stuff of legend. I'd never seen one in the wild before! Checking the date, it had been drawn up about three weeks after I was born, November, 1957. And this shouldn't be a shocker to anyone, but it was a vacuum tube drive. Oh joy. Okay, so that explains the funny grins and the sudden interest in work. As an electrician turned engineer myself, I'd have done the same thing ... It took about five minutes of troubleshooting to discover that the rectifier tube had gone bad, so we wired in a rectifier from a DC disconnect switch that we had in stock. The electricians were a bit disappointed. They told me that they thought that they had me on that one. :) In any case, those Monarchs are very nice lathes. :)

[@MrWaalkman]

@steve gale I'll let you take that up with the toolers. :) It does bring back fond memories, with Tom, Gregg, and Mike, I could walk up to them with a cocktail napkin as a print, and they would make me something. Something that worked. Bob, Cory, and another guy whose name escapes me, did a lot of work, just not for General Motors. Bob was always working on his 1900's Oldsmobile. With Cory it was molds for fishing lures, and the other guy it was parts for his Jeep. Asking them to do anything that tore them away from their hobbies was not a big deal for me, they usually were willing to help me out, if not, maybe some other time. But if it was their Groupleader asking, forget about it. Ed wasn't worth killing, after the second time that I had to rebuild the hard drive on a Bridgeport mill, we had a talk which involved discussing "next steps". No more problems. Later on he moved to the CMM/ELMS room and got busted for stealing time by dressing a manikin up like himself and leaving the site. He transferred (or retired, I can't remember), and I had to fix the Unix server on the CMM machine right after he left. Coincidence, obviously. Wiley kept to himself, and did mostly what he wanted to do, which occasionally included work related projects. There were other trades that had their moments, it wasn't just the toolers. The "Car Final" guys I always referred to as "The Pirates of GA". Those guys caused far more trouble than anyone else. "Power Tools" was another group that caused nothing but problems, just not for me. :) Prior to becoming an engineer I was a maintenance electrician, and I was pretty much one of the gang with the Maintenance folks. I was their resource, if they had a problem that they couldn't solve, or just as likely, had a side project that needed a bit of controls engineering, they would call me down and we would work it out. Great times! :)

[@waynepetry1011]

Very well put together and lots of information. I am rebuilding a 15" Clausing right now that has been sitting in a field for years. I am just getting ready to start scraping.

[@Molb0rg]

11:44 you can scrape harden surface. It will take some time, it takes more effort, but it perfectly doable. they aren't harder than scrapers, people do similar works and they show it.

[@georgeliquor2931]

Keith you have given me hope, my old Smart and Brown VSL has similar wear, the saddle is visibly worn, the Rulon material seems to be the way to go and all is not lost. Great videos keep it up.

[@mk2cnc98]

Keith, to separate heavy iron cases, I have tapped the holes with a heli-coil tap, then turned jacking bolts in the lathe.The heli-coil taps are nicely over-sized for whatever fastener you happen to be working with.

[@PaulWattsSpringGunning]

Schmiede Corporation in Tullahoma TN ground a six ft long bed for me a couple of years ago for about a third of what you're estimating on the low end. It would be worth giving them a call if you have any future projects. They are great to deal with. It might even be within driving distance from you. I dropped of mine and picked it up the next morning and came home. To remove the top on that headstock just give it a few good blows on the side with rubber dead blow. People do the same thing with oil pans on transmissions and engines. I've also done this on a couple of lathes. Once it starts creeping sideways it'll come right off. HTH's

[@bdavis2821]

Love the rebuild. I did the same on my Hendey Shaper ram ways except I used cast iron spray welding then ground and scrapped back to original condition. I find the spray welding will last longer than Rulon or Turcite.

[@Ujeb08]

I gotta say you got balls! Taking on the wear by removing metal and replacing with Rulon with epoxy. Good luck and thanks for sharing.

[@pfrillele]

Hi Keith,i have a Weiler Condor with hardened ways and when i turn a 10cm long 5cm diameter piece the first 5cm had the same diameter and the next 5cm are a cone,i had a 0,04mm wider diameter to the spindelnose,the rest in direction to the tailstock is ok.First i have scraped in the saddle on the tailend,there is no wear. Then i made a sign on the bedway by the end of the saddle where the part beginns to get wider.Then i did start to grind the flat way and on the V-way in front the outer side with 200 grit diamond on a 5x5cm dice out of alu.The lenght was about a 40cm and i grind from left to right with increasing pressure.10 strokes with 200 gritt and 10 with 400 and then turning a piece and checking.This works out very well untill now,At the moment i am at 0,006mm bigger diameter. Have a good day.

[@jamesconner8275]

Keith, you are really stepping up your game by working the ways on your Monarch. I hope you get a practicable suggestion to successfully remove the top to the head stock. Best wishes.

[@dejanira2]

A good start to making the machine accurate. The rest of the rebuild will be very interesting. 🙂🙂

[@j.sap.6881]

great video Keith, I have a 1929 SB 9" by 4 1/2' . I have wear in the bed and saddle. its given me lots to think about. thanks for all the great informative shows.

[@EdgePrecision]

I didn't read all the comments so excuse me if this comment was already made. But in addition to the reasons you gave the reason they use turcite on the ways of CNC equipment with standard way bearings is what is called stiction. That's where if you command a small movement on the control with standard ways (Cast iron) the machine may not actually make the move because of the coefficient of friction of the cast iron on the hardened ways. With the turcite it reduces this friction so you can make very small movements .0001" or less. Also as to one of the previous comment about not needing way lube. Every machine I have ever run with Turcite ways had a way lubrication system. So I don't know I think I would enable the way lube like the original machine had.

[@matthewheyse8205]

Lathe Cover Removal; Expansion nuts in the original clearance holes in the cover, some tension on the lid with hoist pulling on expansion nuts, tapping with copper/lead hammer. If that's not enough hold, machine plugs to a snug fit original clearance holes, (with threaded internal hole). Loctite the plugs in place, add lifting lugs to the threaded holes, use host to pull cover up. With cover off the mill, use heat to breakdown the Loctite in the hole and remove plugs. No permanent modification.

[@victoryfirst2878]

Taking off the headstock cover. Take single sided razor blades and start hammering under the cover going around the circumference. Then take brass bronze small setup wedges or hickory wedges cut using draw knife and pound between the razor blades. The cover is off without damage. Hope this helps you Keith. No heat is needed to cause problems for you. Good day too.

[@docpedersen7582]

Keith: to lift that gearbox lid, I'd get a few heavy retrieval magnets and stick them on the top. Then take your engine hoist and apply up pressure on magnets. Not much, just enough to exert a constant pull on the silicone. Leave it that way for a number of days, then slowly increase pressure, let sit longer. Eventually the silicone bond should part.

[@meliton60]

Great video. Lucky cat taking Pro Machinery Lessons with Keith.

[@dougrundell947]

Keith, you do a great job, don't apologize so much!

[@jamesstanlake4064]

So much is said for useing the correct original materials when restoring any machine but I am all for embracing the new products available. What really matters is the accuracy of the work made on the machine it just makes more sence. When original parts are not available we are left to make replacement ones, fortunatly we live in the 21st century where new materials have been developed that will actually increase the wear life of the machine. A far better option than a scrap yeard in my opinion.

[@martychader3058]

Keith, what if you made a big pin wrench to fit in the existing holes? Then you could apply torque and heat to loosen the top.

[@howder1951]

Hi Keith, usually the silicone sealant will break with a thin fine taper wedge, just apply the pressure slowly and lightly and give the seal a chance to break. As soon as it gives a little the rest will slowly follow. Usual caution; don't crack a casting, use progressive force. I enjoyed this video, the replacement material for the ways is fascinating, you will have to give the details as to how it compares with scraping cast iron, and how the bluing reveals on it. Great point on defeating the "rock" on the initial scrape, but these are the things you learn by doing it for real.

[@timmallard5360]

This is such an awesome video! Ive been reading everything i can about this stuff but seeing it really cements the concepts. You and Richard should produce some machine repair DVDs I would happily buy that.

[@WatchWesWork]

Pound a couple thin putty knives under the cover and it will come loose. Just stone the surfaces before putting it back together. What's the point of relieving the center 1/3 over the turcite when you have that pad that bears on the tailstock ways?

[@andymandyandsheba4571]

many happy returns keith all the best

[@yambo59]

Shop Kat on duty-lol Glad ya had such good results on a nice long Monarch, the rulon looks like a decent lower cost alternative. The shop is really coming together well, the machine collection is growing fast.

[@shauntucker5145]

thanks.. I always wondered how one would measure the wear in these beds not on a known flat surface ! I appreciate it

[@bcbloc02]

Did you try cranking the two jack bolts on the base under the chuck up to drop the relationship to the tailstock end? That should compensate for some wear at the chuck. I bet you could get it to close to .001"error by doing that. You might have to lag the bolts on the other end of the headstock down though to do it.

[@djberg3483]

AWESOME! Thanks fir the info Keith, im doing about the same with my mid 1920's Sebastian 16x72, and i did the same some what, scraped the carrage to where the ends we hitting with alittle bit of high spot in the center. My back hated me, my carrage is less tha that but setting that back on the ways square each time is a real S.O.B. Thanks again, and again fir all the info as to how you're doing what.

[@craigulatorOne]

Keith, since the gearbox holes are not through holes you could epoxy smaller thread pitch nuts to the top of the cover holes at opposite diagonal corners using all thread as an thread alignment aid and use corresponding bolts to separate the cover. Alternatively you could drill and tap for two 1/4-20 jack bolts at opposite diagonal corners located near the cover through holes. All the best.

[@shawnmrfixitlee6478]

Love this concept , The best way to take the wear out is just as you did ! I have done the study , This is a best spot on method !! THUMBS UP ..

[@michaelsavage3183]

Run picture hanger wire, guitar strings or piano wire through the seams to cut the silicone, tie the ends to bolts or pieces of broomstick for handles, and saw back & forth as you go.

[@mikeysgarage3697]

As others have said, I'd go for tapping the bolt holes in the cover itself with the next tread size up from the bolts themselves, and either lift and tap with a dead-blow, or use bolts ground to clear the threads in the gear case to prise them apart, a combination of both of those tricks should do it if neither works alone.

[@myideas8548]

This is an amazing episode. Really well documented and explained. Thanks!

[@JourneymanRandy]

Wow, I'm nervous too. Great video. Nice to see a new way to restore an old lathe.

[@MyShopNotes]

It will be better than new. A perfect restore.

[@CrimeVid]

Can you not thread four of the bolt holes on the lathe top cover ? then you can either lift the cover with your hoist, or you could insert appropriate bolts with the lower threads removed and use them to push the cover up.so it either comes free or gives you space to insert a razor knife or a wire.

[@ronalddavis]

Yeah what I call "jacking bolts"

[@fairweatherfoundry715]

He literally said those exact words in the video and explained why he didn't want to do that (the first suggestion, I don't understand the second suggestion).

[@Ropetangler]

Silicon can often tolerate big heat Keith, even ordinary RTV, not only the red high temperature stuff. Perhaps you could tap the holes (which would be clearance holes for the bolts holding the lid down), likely a real PITA, unless a suitable metric thread size coincided, but having done that you could take some strain with your engine crane, and then perhaps a thin blade like a scalpel might be suitable to cut the silicon between the two faces. Once you got a cut started, the gap should open and make it easier the further you went. Good luck however you do it, Rob

[@jusb1066]

yeah heat aint gonna help, more likely to damage

[@MichaelLloyd]

Silicone. Silicon is a mineral, like sand...

[@PeopleAlreadyDidThis]

Thin hardware store paint scrapers sharpened to a knife edge...start tapping them into the siliconed joint, take it easy, let time and wedging pressure peel the silicone loose. Wow, many types of Rulon available. Presuming this is 142? Maybe there's hope for my very tired Colchester!

[@jusb1066]

tap a load of stanley knife blades around the edge, im sure he has plenty of those, even fairly blunt ones will do

[@dodgydruid]

Gorgeous looking little tortoiseshell cat totally at home with all that big machinery, my cats are out the window like champagne corks even if I fire up the cordless drill although they are very curious about my steam engines and sit nearby and watch with intense fascination.

[@KPearce57]

Try a thin Guitar string with a couple of key rings, thats what they use to cut glued on windshields out to replace them.

[@jauringer1]

Very intimidating project. Great job Keith! I look forward to seeing more of this.

[@elmarqo_3448]

I hope you got some pictures during disassembly. the pics you had of the LeBlonde were advantageous

[@richardhaisley1]

we also had a metal planer with a tool post grinder that we used to regrind ways. it would handle work up to 30 feet long.

[@melgross]

I get the cost of regrinding. Back in 1983, when I bought my South Bend 10L Heavy, the ways were worn. I bought some new parts from South Bend. I also asked about regrinding the bed. They said that I would also have to send the saddle in as well. The cost back then, for what was a short bed-36”, was $1,200. It did include shipping back, but I had to pay for the crating and shipping there. I ended up not doing it. That’s over $3,160 today. So the estimate that the Monarch could cost $10,000 makes perfect sense. However, the South Bend FOURTEEN I bought in 2002, with its hardened bed and saddle, has almost no wear.

[@roleic7246]

Concerning the silicone under your head stock cover: Can you put a raiser blade in the gap cutting the silicon like in a wind screen replacement? Use soapy water to lubricate the blade in the silicone. You might have to grip it with pliers. I would be careful with heat. Usually silicone is quite heat resistant. You would have to go to high temps possibly cooking your main bearings and changing their heat treatment. Before using heat I would consider machining the cover off and make a new one..

[@douglaspierce316]

broom handle hand holds

[@hmw-ms3tx]

Hello Keith, I know I'm a little late to the game (2 years) and you've probably figured out a way to remove the headstock cover by now, but I had this same problem with my lathe. In my case the idiot who used silicon was me, a few weeks earlier.I tried lifting it off with a forklift (4400lbs capacity, it stalled) and even tried pushing it off sideways with the forklift but it wouldn't budge (the lathe is large, 20,000 lbs) so the forklift wouldn't shift it around. I would have drilled and tapped a hole for jacking screws but the cover was about 3" thick at the edge (solid, not hollow). The cover itself weighs about 400 lbs. I eventually drilled and tapped two 1/4 inch holes on either side of a clamp bolt hole. I then made a bar similar to a gear puller with two 1/4 holes and a centre threaded hole. The bar was attached to the cover with 1/4" bolts (using the just tapped holes) and a bolt was used as a jacking screw. I screwed an original clamping bolt through the cover into the headstock only part way so it wouldn't hold the cover down. Then I pushed the jacking screw against this bolt. It worked well but it took some time. As howder1951 mentioned in the comments you need to load the silicon and let it sit for a while. Eventually it releases a bit and then you add more force and wait again. The other trick is to do this at a corner, not in the middle of a side. The one good thing that came out of this was that the silicon stayed on the headstock and acted as a gasket with no leaking afterwards. Since the silicon is cured, the cover no longer sticks and comes off easily now. You can see this headstock in my video kzbin.info/www/bejne/annbdmeXgautjdE, if you're interested. The silicon is the slightly darker grey around the outside edge of the headstock. Thanks for all your great videos, Ken

[@janvanruth3485]

next time just spray wd40 on it and wait the stuff actually penetrates in between the silicon and the steel also works on getting silicon out of the joints in the joints between tiles and bathtub/sink

[@Godshole]

Re, the stuck on top. Is there any room to get something like a fine steel guitar string in there and saw it back and forth, cutting the silicon maybe? E string is .009 or.008 if I remember right. Buy a few, they can snap if you put too tight a bend in them....

[@louiel8711]

i've found plain ethanol laced gasoline will eat rtv silicone maybe put some in the bolt holes from the top and just let it soak for a while if the holes are blind

[@glencasson9046]

Fantastic Keith. I had the same problem getting the cover off my Holbrook H15, try WD 40, it really works, spray, leave a few minutes then slide a very thin blade in Stanley knife blade works, then repeat, it`s a chew to do but it does work.

[@Sqeezerful]

Oh heat (33:00) on castings ... with oil inside ... ? Try large C-clamps in a horizontal way - resting the on side on the lid and the other side a bit deeper on the lower shell. That should shear the lid off. If you rest the points of the clamps on the corners, the stress should be ok.

[@RobB_VK6ES]

great minds think alike :)

[@cncit]

also I've seen someone use a sliding carriage with grinding wheels at each end to straighten up hardened ways. ..worked really well..

[@84953]

Hey Keith, love the videos. Just a couple of thoughts for you. So far as pulling the top off in a straight pull up, think about how many square inches of holding power are there. Try a small brass wedge in one corner to break the seal on the cover. Or how about using a double wedge anchor in one or more of the existing holes on the cover? Might I suggest that with the big pieces, like the saddle and the larger chucks, even with help think of safety and use the engine hoist. Especially when you are working alone. One slip or mistake, there's the very real potential for injury or equipment damage.

[@eugeneswart1518]

Disappointing all that wear and that gasket stuck makes you wonder what could be hidden. However I believe with maybe a little help, you are the right person to sort that beast out. Besides all that it will make for good video content. Dont be discouraged. Best of luck and look forward to seeing the progress.

[@kimballscarr]

I will share my experience from now over 40 years ago. I had gotten a job from Lockheed California Co., the Skunk Works, as an engineer. Reporting to duty, was informed the engineers had just gone out on strike and might be out 2 months! Well I really needed the job... so explaining to the guy at the Lockheed employment office... he checked my resumé and found I could run machine tools. In those days they asked what type of office and shop equipment you could run, on the 7 page application. So he asked if I would wait around an hour or so as the machine shop manager would be interviewing a candidate and he would have him interview me too. I noticed the other guy coming out of that interview wore a 3 piece suit. I had a wool work shirt and trousers on, no tie or anything dress. During the interview I showed some pictures of things I had made for a race car. That got me the job, and the fact I had a high security clearance from service in the U.S. Navy Nuclear Program. This was a Friday. Reporting to work Monday after 4 hours of security check check it turns out my clearance would be easily reactivated. I was given my pass badge, with clearance then and there. Most had to wait a couple weeks, but where assigned to orientation. I had only an old Kennedy fan top opening tool box and had brought all the tools they listed, including my Starrett dial caliper and Starrett indicator set. But no 0-1" micrometer. As I only had a few dollars left, and need that $40-50 for gas and food until the first paycheck, so buying a tool for all that would be not possible. The day shift manager hired me but I was put on Swing shift... so I did my first day get a full 8 hr. shift in. The Leadman a Lyman Guymon showed me to a 1944 LeBlond lathe, and gave me my first job. It was 2.5" long pins .2500" dia. +.0000/-.0005 made of 4130 HT, just enough and one pin extra. He showed me the on/off and controls... huffed and went off. Later he complained about me not being a machinist, because of the box. Well having no cutting tools I spent the next 4 hours grinding up a complete set. Then went and checked out an Intrepid 0-1 Comparator Micrometer... started the job... but right in the middle of the pin the lathe carriage would fall off into a hole... I could not hold tolerance. And, I only got a couple of the dozen or so pins out. Well being new on the job I was in deep crap! Any mistake, late, day missed, anything would count towards your 3 strikes and you're out. So did much the same checks with my indicator and finding a couple angle blocks in the bench draw... darn lathe had over a .007" drop off ledge about 2" from the chuck face and tool post holder. Some had made a lot of stuff less than 2" long with a three jaw. The collet chuck I used put the drop off right in the middle of my work. Desperately I looked around for more stock. Found in the work bench behind the lathe some drill rod. And, I finished up just cutting off and chamfering the drill rod with a little polish. This is where a few days later it got interesting. Continued in comment.

[@kimballscarr]

Continued, Over the next few days I had the same difficulty and fought playing around with setups and tools to work either in the worn out area or before it. But was still fighting it. During this time I discovered two other guys assigned back in the corner of the ADP machine shop in Bldg. 82, where struggling. Turns out Dan a black guy had been "laid off" from the post office for wrecking a fork truck, then got retrained by the State of California, as a machinist, with a 6 week course. He had no idea what he was doing and I spent some time getting him some basic tools ground up; left and right with various nose radius and a threading tool... which he had no idea how to single point thread with. The other guy was a bad... now I knew why Lyman had complained about me on the first day. But Dan had an old Gershner box and complete tool set, I guess that confused them... at first! The other guy a white guy claimed to have gone to a junior college and graduated from the machine shop program... as long as he was around never made made a good part ever, and he liked to "rework others work" once destroying a weeks work of three shifts and three guys reworking finished parts, threads with a die... that was a 'red hot job' so they fired him. Dan became an acceptable operator with a lot of my help... and a friend. So in the mean time I found a place to park my camp trailer, near Acton California. I was saying in the camp ground but security wanted a "permeant address" so I asked the forest ranger if I could use their ranger station address... he knew a guy with a ranch grandfathered in on the national forest, so I interviewed with him. He owned four blocks either side of Sunset Blvd. in Beverly Hills shopping district, and his company Montgomery Management collected lease rents, and he had inherited that land from his grandfather ... numerous big buildings on it including the Peterson Bldg. and many tony shops and night clubs. He also inherited the ranch in the desert. Francis Montgomery was 75 years old and gave me a $1.00 lease a year on the ranch except I could not use the ranch house as he might want to occasionally, he never did but his son brought his friends up about once a month and would go up in his hot air ballon. Well I was set. My first pay day I had gone two days without food to afford drive gas forth and back. Continued.

[@kimballscarr]

After getting paid I could go to the store. I went in to Acton and the little general store and gas station, this is before all the development in that area. The store owner introduced me to Kelly Johnson... founder of the Skunk Works... he had a little ranch near by to where I was. So we talked a little and I explained my job and circumstance, and disappointment to be stuck in the machine shop... along with the crappy lathe. Anyway, Kelly said that it was best for engineers to start out in the shop... and told me he had. Anyway, during the talk the my first job came up, I told him about having to switch material... his comment was "probably wouldn't make any difference" substituting the Drill Rod for the 32 RC scale hardness 4130. I also explained the problem with the blueprint. After two weeks I had never seen another job where the title block of the blueprint was not cut out, except that one! So quietly, I explained about what the Part was and how it gave away the whole secret of the prototype plane we were building, the then first F-117. Well it was bomb rack pins, but the kind was important. He said, "I know what the hell you mean!" very matter of factly. I also explained about the problem with the old worn out lathe too, he knew exactly the problem as to the saddle drop issue. Anyway, we parted and he said, "Thank you" as I walked out. I said nothing of meeting the founder of the place ever at work, as I don't think anyone would believe me. That day everything was fine. The next day, I had a brand new Monarch 10EE lathe with a tracer attachment at my work station. Lyman and Tate were sort of put off. An old guy Bill Ferrel, when I started car pooling in, he lived in Aqua Dulce, told me Lyman was bitching about me and I guess they had heard I knew Kelly Johnson. But the entire blueprint cube and the Engineering offices were being audited as to security practices! Later I learned Lyman and Tate had been question about if they had seen that the title block on that job was still in place, and why they had not taken it back to the blueprint cube.... making notification as too the breech on the title block. Of course later we all learned of that plane and now it is retired and off in a dark corner of hall 4 of the Air Force Museum... they don't even bother with lighting it, and they have it stuffed out of the way with unused public amusement contraption. Kelly got Alzheimer's later. And, later in my career I meet some of his best friends and co-workers. Warren Boardmand the director of advance developments at Marquardt... had worked with Kelly on the P38 durning WW2. He said, every time Kelly visited with a problem he'd complain about Roy Marquardt..."though that blabber mouth would never shut up!" The time Warren remembered him being particularly put out was the Y-12 CIA spy plane (fore-runner of the SR71) could not meet its operational envelop due to extreme thermal stress to the equipment and men inside... due to aerodynamic heating effect... Warren's team had it solved in a week or so! So that is my worn out lathe bed story. It is also my bomb rack pins story. I told it once at lunch to Gen. LeMay and his old aid Col. Russ Schleeh, Russ said... yes I must have gotten some of those bomb rack pins too! He got in big trouble for barrel rolling a B36 with a simulated 10,000 bomb in it which the pins sheared, and the bomb thing ended up in a lake north of Edwards AFB... at the bottom under 65 feet of mud. That the Air Force had to recover by the way.

[@kimballscarr]

As to my measurements on the lathe. What I did was took a piece of aluminum scrap 1.5" dia. about 30" long and turned it between centers. I adjusted the tailstock gibs until the end at the tailstock ran turn and to the same size at the same dial reading as near the head stock at the dead center and drive dog as the bed was 36" center to center my 30" bar would cover most. Then I made two light cuts and a spring pass going the full distance. I then measured the bar all along the length for dia. every couple inches and closer up near the chuck. Then I put my indicator on the tool post and set it on the top of the bar.... and ran it up and down taking indicator measurements as I went. The dia. up near the chuck would be about .002" and .003" different bigger over the area of the wear... or drop off. Measured with a micrometer for diameter there was noticeable step on the tailstock end, and that is where the largest change was, but as you got close to the headstock you got another smaller step. However, as best I remember the indicator readings along the top of the cut bar were much worse... as you ran the carriage for and back it was more on the order of 0.011" to 0.015" or so. Of course job pressure had me worried about getting work out... whether it really needed to be worried about or not! So more was not done.

[@hartparr]

Happy Birthday, Keith!!

[@RobB_VK6ES]

To separate the headstock cover I suggest you use some timber blocks and clamps to shear the silicon. One piece of timber bearing on the main case and the second on the lid. Clamp at the corners and you will have no fears of breaking the castings.

[@exilfromsanity]

@ 7:04> when I went to school 9" was 3/4 of a foot, but that was a long time ago. I love the name tag Capt. Keith!

[@dennyskerb4992]

,you are so right, 8" is 2/3's

[@davidhoward2237]

if you had a extra magnet chuck from grinder or somekind of magnet you can turn on and off i think that would work clean the metel and left from there

[@vanhanit]

At 32:40, how about using a magnet designed for lifting heavy stuff? That should be able to hold on to the cover while you lift it with the engine hoist.

[@davidhoward2237]

that what i said, but he should try to cut or dissolve the silicone first

[@adcurtin]

for removing the top of the gearbox, suction came to mind first. I'm not sure if a dent puller would be strong enough, but maybe there are stronger options. my second thought is an electromagnet. dunno if the mag chuck could do that or if you'd need a different type of electromagnet.

[@viperbl69]

Could you use a wire to cut the gasket? Cutting the corners may let you get a entry point and then put in a wedge to raise it up? A thought

[@Garganzuul]

You can get 0.1mm molybdenum wire for cheap. It's really strong. They use it for cutting broken glass from smartphone displays.

[@martychader3058]

viperbl69 maybe Ni Chrome wire with a current to make a hot knife...

[@755Fight]

Thanks for sharing Keith! I have an old Monarch as well and have been thinking about doing something like this to it. My ways are much more worn, though, so I'm trying to figure out a DIY grinding solution first.

[@gertskjlstrup1804]

Cant wait to see the follow up video!!

[@experiencingtechnicaldiffi5184]

I have run across this problem with the headstock cover before. Since they didn't allow for jacking screws you have to make your own without modifying the machine. You will only need one. I would tap the left rear cover screw hole with whatever size will work without drilling. Then take a short bolt that size and drill and tap through for a screw smaller than the minor diameter of the cover screw. Run the short bolt into the hole and fill the hole with gasoline. Then screw the smaller one in and put some tension on it, but just a little so as not to break the cover. Go inside and get a sandwich and watch some Tom Lipton or Stefan Gotteswinter videos. This is most important as time must be allowed for the gasoline to soften the silicone and the screw pressure to lift the corner enough to get a blade in and there is no better way to wait than Tom and Stefan, unless it's Abom or Stan or Emma... After the videos have run out you can now remove the cover by lifting with the small screw as you drive a thin blade around the cover to cut and separate the silicone. A blade can be made from some steel strapping with a sharpened side driven around the joint with a small hammer. No Abom required here, that was earlier remember. You will be chooching in no time. Sometimes the cover will come up when you first put in the screw and there will be no need to wait. What am I saying!?! There is always time for Keith and John and Chris. If I missed anyone, well it's getting late and I'm getting old so there you go. Mike (o\!/o)

[@workaholic5318]

If there are no dowel pins in the cover perhaps a bit of sideways pressure will break it loose. I have found that vertical pulls against silicone don't work out well.

[@zomie1]

Thanks for the information about Roulon ... interesting to know it is possible to rebuild ways like this.

[@mfletch392]

I would try those large window suckers on the lathe top to see if they would stand the engine hoist lifting force

[@cjb1kcb1]

A comment/suggestion: Use some 49 strand coated stainless fishing leader (say 75# test) between the headstock cover and the headstock gearbox. Slip it between the mating surfaces and 'saw' it back and forth through the RTV. Wrapping it around wood dowel handles might help.. A question: What Rulon product was used(?) - there are over a dozen Rulon products listed at their website.:

[@rogerhaag9069]

Hello Those pads are amazing to be able to use!! It is hard for me to imagine how gluing it down will achieve a very flat...without some thousandths variation!! Seems like you would have to light pressure clamp the pad down while glue drying? But it can be scraped to fine tune! Just wondering?

[@creativesymon]

If you can see the siliconed gap in the headstock cover...try piano wire type stuff.

[@OldIronShops]

very excited about this i have a16" 1931 south bend gap bed lathe i working on (you may have seen the videos ) and it will definitely need some scraping longing to take mr kings class lol . very interesting way to measure the where with the levels and i really like your jig you assembled.

[@rayraynor5676]

Save your money, this guy and king are total asshats when it comes to real scraping/machine rebuilding.

[@jimgibson2463]

never seen a saddle have three point of contact on lathe bed . the ones I seen always had two the v and the back flat one. the tail stock and study rest was on the flat ones. Been running lathes since 1953

[@esquehill]

I would like to see these measurements done on a brand-new lathe.

[@iancraig1951]

Keith I enjoyed that video prodigiously ---really interesting stuff--you have a lot of work in front of you but it will be worth it,you will end up with a beautiful piece of machinery..

[@tinkeringtim7999]

Hi Keith, I have a Leblond 13 with ways in terrible shape (5 thou wear, and lots of dings/scrapes eg from chucks being dropped many times - why they didn't put wood down I don't know). I also can't afford to get it ground, what you did with the saddle made me wonder - why not use the Roulon on the ways too?

[@jeremydoblinger3609]

Use a magnet for a jib crane on your engine hoist to pick that cover up on the lathe, they make those magnets quite strong. I pick up steel at work dam near the weight of that lathe with em all the time.. my 2 cents

[@geoffreyward3473]

you could find a solvent that dissolves the silicon and using a syringe with needle attached ,inject between the lid and base.i often use solvent to clean silicon off my hands and it just falls apart.good luck anyway keith.

[@douglaslodge8580]

As always a great video Keith.

[@dale436]

Great video Keith. This is some really interesting stuff!

[@kennygee6627]

Great video. Very informative, I’ve never heard of Rulon. very cool stuff, it makes good sense.

[@Mishn0]

Those window blinds look really nice, Keith. Plus, I'm sure you've noted the smashed oil line in the middle of the saddle, I hope.

[@sthenzel]

If you have to remove material on the saddle anyway, would it be possible to use the saddle to deliberately wear down the higher parts of the bed with lapping compound? Could take many hours and be quite a workout for your arms, though.

[@CrobbDawg]

Happy Birthday for tomorrow.

[@BartKost]

Hey Keith, how about getting a vacuum lift (is that what it's called?) for the gearbox lid, maybe you can pull on it that way without damaging the lid. You know, the vacuum suction cups they use to lift large glass windows. Cheers, Bart

[@feelingluckyduck373]

Sometimes on older machines there are screws that get filled over, for whatever reason. Check that out?

[@billdlv]

Nice job Keith, very informative.

[@ryanmarsh9623]

You could get some really strong magnets and try and pull the covers off with the hoist that way might not work still but might be worth a shot

[@railfan439]

Keith: Keep us updated on the status of your oak tree out front. Happy Birthday!See you at Bar-Z Jon

[@vedranlatin1386]

Hi Keith, Why didn't you use the unworn part of the bed (towards the tailstock) for molding the new saddle surfaces? Thanks for the great videos :)

[@cojones8518]

That's what I was thinking.

[@milesmcdonald4367]

Vedran Latin because most of the work is done/will be done where the wear is therefore you'd need to have that wear accounted for. Very rarely to you go out that far unless you're doing big work or shafting like Adam Booth or Keith Fenner

[@davidhoward2237]

plus he got another big machine he need to repair for bigger work, that videio would be nice to see

[@seanhazelwood3311]

As long as Keith keeps in mind that if he should need to use the other "non-worn" areas of the bed, the saddle will not run true in those areas because they're "molded" to the worn area, probably worse than before.

[@rubarb0406]

It is important that the saddle not rock from end to end. If one used the pristine end to scrape the saddle in, it could end up rocking or generating "kitty-whompus" /kitty corner (from end to end) pressures. By scraping the saddle to the most worn area, one is assured that the pressure points are where they should be for the bulk of the work that is to be performed. The manner in which Keith approached the scraping became an averaging process, i.e. the best overall average for the setup. If Keith feels otherwise, he can correct me.

[@howardhiggins9641]

It's been a while since you were working on this, so you may have figured a way to get the top of the gearbox off already. Is there any way you could have used some kind of hydraulic pressure, as opposed to air, to get the seal to break. Say in through an oiler hole already tapped into the side of the case ?

[@campbellmorrison8540]

Wooh I understand your apprehension.

[@williamquaday2392]

Keith, I don't know if anyone has pointed this out, I have read most of the comments and not seen it mentioned. Here goes. At about 6:30, you show a measuring setup that I would never do. You are using the flat way for the tailstock and the flat way of the carriage as your reference surfaces. Fine when close in at the headstock and at the end of the bed, but in between, the carriage and the tailstock ways will show two completely different wear patterns. If you are only checking for twist, you're fine, but for measuring topography of the ways, you will not get the truth.