MACHINE SHOP TIPS #95 Making a Test Bar pt 1 tubalcain

Tubalcain shows how to make a test bar to align the headstock & tailstock centers.

[@dirtyharry793]

This was real helpful. My Logan has 3AT collets, max 1/2". Here is where I got stuck and you pointed me in the right direction using a 4 jaw and min 5/8" drill stock as you mentioned, and using the crossfeed to finish boring the end instead of the tailstock. I am going to repeat your suggestions on my lathe. I'll let you know how it turned out. Your detailed explanations on all your videos are extremly important to us all. THANKS SO MUCH, you are truely a great teacher!!!

[@787roofdog]

Been going to school in Tubalcains Machine shop class all week. I started at the top of the directory and watched every video. I have had a lathe in my shop for years. Glad to learn all I have this week, many possibilities have opened up for me. Thank you Sir.

[@BasementShopGuy]

Lyle, another great one. I really like the sidebar showing the zero run out. I gotta say, you're the best on Internet. I always learn a lot.

[@paultoman889]

I bought a length of drill rod this afternoon and made one of the bars this evening, exactly as you showed in this video. Now the tailstock is within 0.0005"!!! Tomorrow I expect to be NOT cutting tapers, at last. All of your videos are excellent. Thank you very much for all of the work you put into them.

[@michaelstorm8578]

I salvaged a ram from an old hydraulic cylinder and made a test bar as you have shown. It is working quite well, thanks for the info.

[@mrpete222]

That was a good idea, to use the old ram

[@dicksargent3582]

Thanks so much ! I was one of the many who requested this video and I'm SO glad I did. It doesn't get any better than this !!!

[@kenzpenz]

I recently got my new to me 9 in South Bend lathe up and running. This was a Craigslist purchase and it was a diamond in the rough indeed. I completely restored the lathe and invested as much $ into as what I paid for it, but you know how that is. This video comes into my life at the perfect time, because I am still in the process of setup and checking to see if everything is accurate. My next project will be to make a test bar exactly as you described. Of course all this will be done on this imperfect lathe, because this is all I have. I will order the 3/4 in stock like you show and center drill. So far, some of the stock I have turned mics out pretty close at each end, just lucky I guess. I really enjoy watching your videos and learn something every time. Who says you can't teach an old dog new tricks. I am 76 and just got started in this metal lathe business. For the past few years I have been turning pens and bowls on my wood lathe but that has played out. You sir are what America is all about. Thank you very much.

[@mrpete222]

Hi Ken Thanks for watching. Send some pics of that SB lathe. There still lots of life in those old machines. Keep watching pete

[@mrbreezeet1]

Kenneth you also are an inspiration to me, as you are trying to learn all you can, at your age. I am 59, and sometimes I feel like I am over the hill.

[@ClownWhisper]

I tell you what mr. Pete your videos I really helping me stay alive. I'm very sick and disabled but I can still do small things maybe an hour a day I can work on the lathe or on my Mill. doing so has helped me mentally and physically more than you could ever imagine. in a couple short years I went from being a robotics engineer traveling the country enjoying life earning money and living the dream, two sitting staring at a television set or computer screen with my feet up in the air on pillows. it's no life to live having limited earning potential is horrible it's a worst nightmare I've ever been through I miss work so terribly bad then it's really senseless to try and describe the feeling. If you haven't lived through it you'll never understand how wonderful it is to be a productive person. At any rate you are tips are helping me learn the basics around a lathe and Mill. it really is giving me a reason to get up in the morning. so thank you very much I appreciate your efforts and I know that it is a great offer to compile all these videos edit them and put them online I've done some work with video editing it's time consuming and real work. I have a question for you regarding drill rod. There are many different grades to choose from. I imagine the specific hardness of the material isn't so important but I figured before I click the Buy It Now button I would ask you does it really matter much which grade of tool steel drill Rod that I purchase. Thank you in advance

[@mrpete222]

SORRY to hear about your suffering and I'm glad my vids are of some enjoyment for you. All drill rod is difficult to machine. I usuall buy the water cooled--no smoke in the house when I harden it.

[@ClownWhisper]

Well thank you very much mr. Pete it's not all bad I found out not too long ago that it's not terminal after all! I'm going to go ahead and get 3 foot of 1 inch or maybe three quarter drill rod and I have some cylindrical bearings that I'm going to use to make a taper attachment and I'll use the left over drill Rod as a shafting and material, I think that may work but will probably be Overkill

[@htchtc203]

Thank you Sir for showing how this is to be done. No back to shop and checking my tiny lathe.

[@OUMagMan]

Mr. Pete ... as-was my beloved 7th grade woodshop instructor (Mr. Prior) ... U-R always The Educator ... may you live to teach forever!! Thanks so much for the lessons! Jim/Ohio

[@scheppach69]

Another master class from another mastercraftsman!

[@onlywhenprovoked]

You're a great teacher, thanks so much for sharing your knowledge.

[@flavour404]

Thanks, that was really interesting and I feel like I learnt a lot. When I get my lathe set up I am going to have a go. Again, thanks for all the videos.

[@fredlopez9358]

Thank you i did not think of that as i was unhappy and had by blinders on ,i look over your videos and find a wealth of knowledge in them ,i liked the machine shop in high school but the teacher was hard to get along with put never lost the machinist craving so i started late 44 and have a lot of older machines but i still love to make my own stuff when i have time .Thank you for replying to my post and the help.FredLopez :)

[@simpleman283]

I've watched your playlist on shop tips, but I do not remember seeing this one. Makes me think I must have fallen asleep a time or two. This was an extremely useful tip, that's how I know I missed it because I would have recalled this one for sure. After this video ends I'm going to watch your newest video, Unloading the South Bend.

[@mrpete222]

👍👍

[@mrpete222]

Yes-I saw you in your seat when I took the roll. Thanks-keep watching. I am enjoying your series on engine valves.

[@aryesegal1988]

Another great video, Mr. Pete. Thanks a ton for sharing your knowledge, god bless you! :)

[@lvdovicvs]

Thanks for yet another great video!

[@hakimmic]

Very educational video and what I need to do to my Hendey. Thank you Mr Pete.

[@junglejammer1]

Thanks for another great video. It's true that, "the devil is in the details". I never thought about boring the center holes. I thought that, by using the short, stubby center drill, that you would be right on. Wrong-O. Learned something new today. It also, explains a few past failures.

[@iiinsaiii]

Great video, keep up the good work.

[@priority2]

Another outstanding video...Thank you!!

[@petermetaxas9696]

I enjoy your videos, have watched about 15 so far.

[@mrpete222]

+Peter Metaxas Thanks-you have 600 to go

[@intjonmiller]

Hi Mr Pete! Thanks for this and other videos. Do you happen to have one on using the Last Word indicator? I recently acquired one (an unexpected gift from a friend on a machinist forum), but I'm having trouble making sense of the attachments and their intended use. Thanks again!

[@nicholasdautel1228]

Thank you so much for this knowledge.

[@chuckthebull]

This was really informative ..know its an old one but its timely for me...

[@elsdp-4560]

THANK YOU...for sharing. Always learning.

[@mrpete222]

Thanks

[@Stefan_Boerjesson]

Thanks for yet another educating and useful video. At the time 8.55 You tell about paralax. I can think of 2 ways to get around it. 1) Place the light source right above the indicator and look at the shadow of the pointer. 2) Make the zero placed in such a way that the pointer is pointing straight to the camera having the magnmetic stand mounted on the cross slide. Then pointer movements can be read well enough.

[@mrpete222]

Thanks

[@NOBOX7]

Thanks Tubalcain for sharing your wisdom , i never new a three jaw chuck is often of by so much on center drilling . im restoring an old heavey ten L and im very worried about the accuracy available. im searching for insight on when to say this lathe is junk and i should give up and part it out .I read that the brass bushings have to be about .00017 of play on the chuck bearings, not even sure if i am able to shim this device myself but im gonna try , i guess my question is how in accurate can i allow this machine to be for a guy who just builds experimental devices ?

[@mrpete222]

Yes--we used it all the time years ago

[@MrHarvard88]

Thank you for another great video. I was wondering if you could make a video just on collets and how they are used. I know you've touched on the subject in some other videos, but I don't remember seeing one devoted just to the subject of collets.

[@mrpete222]

Does yours have timken roller bearings?

[@rongrosstube]

Thank you, great informative video. I think many comments indicate they don't realize the difference between a center drill operation and a boring operation in terms of concentricity. The center drill hole, whether done with the stock in the chuck or in the collet is still a roughly centered hole due to the potential tail-stock mis-alignment, and is subsequently trued by the boring operation using a known centered holder that induces zero runout. I also want to mention that your replies to some of the comments appear to be made to the thread itself not to the actual comment as they show up a few comments away from the original question/comment. Use the REPLY button just below the comment. : ) Thank you again.

[@mrpete222]

Thank you, that’s good information

[@imysteryman]

Thanks Pete Now I have that tail stock to with in .0005 alignment. John

[@joedell71]

Hi tubalcain. I really like your videos they are very informative for an amateur machinist like myself. You mentioned using thompson shaft for this operation. I can get plenty of scrap thompson shaft from the toolroom scrap bin where I work. Can I use thompson shaft for this or does it absolutely have to be drill rod??

[@jasond4752]

Would ground and polished shafting be a good choice for making one of these?

[@mrpete222]

I would use a morse taper reamer supported by headstock center and hand ream it.. Hoping it would clean it up & true it. Otherwise you might need a new (used) tailstock quill.

[@rogue277]

Wouldn't it be possible to just put the solid bar in the collet from the start? Then you're center drill would be concentric to the OD of the bar.

[@fredlopez9358]

Hello i am having a small lathe issue and i am sure you can help i have a mid 1960s delta Rockwell metal lathe 14inch swing 48inch centers and i have checked it for alignment and found that the head stock is .010 over my tail stock ,if the tail stock is just worn down can i shim the tail stock centers or will the dove tail prevent that shimming, a test bar show ok down the side but the top or bottom sees the ,010 shows up at a short distance .thank and thank you for the videos i love them.

[@shopdogsam]

,,, here I am, in my regular seat, first row, third seat from the middle,, another great lesson,

[@kenzpenz]

Hello Again. I followed your advice and purchased two sections of drill rod 3/4 in by 12 inches long. On the first piece, I placed it into a four jaw chuck with just a couple of inches sticking out. I used my dial indicator and set the end to pretty close to zero. I faced the end and center drilled it. I repeated the process with the other end. I then placed this test bar on my South Bend 9 inch lathe using a dead center on both ends . I used my dial indicator that is attached to my QCTP . I set the head stock to zero and cranked the setup to the tail stock and without changing anything found it was out a couple of thou, so I adjusted the tail stock accordingly. I ran it back to the head stock and sure enough it was close to the tail stock setting. Sounds great right, "NO" what I discovered is while cranking the carriage from the tail stock, the needle moved considerably until, I was back to the head stock. I think due to the age of my lathe, a 1954 model A, there is considerable bed wear. If I held pressure against the compound, there was very little movement on the needle of the indicator when cranking back and forth. What are your thoughts on my situation. Is it bed wear or slop in the compound ? I changed the brass nut on both the cross feed and the compound. I am very new at this lathe business . How do I go about send you photos of my lathe. Thanks again for these great videos. Ken

[@mrpete222]

I will send email address in next reply. Sometimes they do not go thru--marked as spam

[@mrpete222]

[e-mail]

[@tarmo120]

Great, I thought it'd be same. Thank you.

[@MaulTechATV]

I've looked all over Mcmaster and can only find drill rod or tool steel that is hardened already. Could you point me in the right direction please? (A part number would be nice) Love the video and makes perfect sense.

[@einsteinmentor6453]

excellent tool,,,

[@tomherd4179]

I noticed on eBay that a lot of test bars have a MT taper on one end then the length added from the taper. I got confused. Example: If the taper is in the tail stock it is fixed. The other end has a center drill hold. Is one supposed to eye-ball a spindle point toward the bar's center drilled hole??

[@fredlopez9358]

Well i have a bigger problem the inside of the tail stock is damaged it looked smooth but it was hard grease ,ran a brush on it and the damage shown any ideas as to how to fit,bore it and sleeve it.any help would be nice thanks

[@ginahardee4891]

how did you drill a center if the whole purpose is to get the tail stock lined up?

[@markgrayson4460]

In the process of making one of these....trying to source the drill rod. Mcmaster Carr sells a few different versions of drill rod o1 a2 d2 w1 m2 m42.....which is the one I would want?

[@mrpete222]

I do not think it matters, get the cheapest

[@tzkelley]

Thanks, that makes sense.

[@petermetaxas9696]

Would starting with a collet not make it more accurate to start with and eliminate an operation?

[@mrpete222]

+Peter Metaxas Thanks for watching--yes

[@mrpete222]

Perhaps, but I doubt it. Remember, that hardinge speed lathe does not have a tailstock to drill from.

[@tzkelley]

Would placing the drill rod in a four-jaw or collet to start with and then center drilling have eliminated a step (moving to the collet)? Perhaps even given sufficient accuracy to not have to bore? I'm sure you had a good reason for starting in the three-jaw but I can't tell what it was. And, by the way, thank-you for all the wonderful instruction videos--I've learned quite a bit from you.

[@andregross7420]

Hi Pete, when you were center drilling the ends (if you look closely) I saw that the stock was not true in the chuck. And I think this was why the stock was off balance between centers. Just sharing my observation.

[@happymark1805]

very nice vid, unfortunaly my lathe doe snot have collets so no accurate bar for me to make myself

[@tomherd4179]

Question/Theory: I had used a 3/4" bar (Turn Ground & Polished) as you suggested in my SB 10K lathe. I thought I could simply use an ER38 collet & chuck. While the collet chuck runs true when the 10" bar is installed the bar is not held true any more. My THEORY; the weight of the bar in the head stock has tilted the ER collet some so while holding it becomes off parallel with the center. I have no other idea at this time. I guess the next best way is to use a 4 jaw and get it running true.

[@MaulTechATV]

thank you. I think I found it. It's also called D2 Tool Steel

[@199greg0]

If the bar is drill stock (HSS?) and the cutting bit is HSS. I thought the the cutter would need to be harder than the stock? Thanks MrPete.

[@harshpandeyascociatebuyerofrcm]

i have 30.0 mm1000 mm shaft i m machining center to center but run out will be 0.15 m.m

[@djpaulk]

@ shopdogsam :) Hahahahaaa Hey Sam, good to see ya here. Im sittin 2 rows back, close to the middle... See me waving :)

[@stragenmitsuko]

As alway's a nica and educational video . Altough I wonder why you didn't bore the center hole's in the collet right from the start . Say , Mr Pete , if ever you run out of inspiration , maybe you could do a video on the creation and use of a fly cutter . I've seen it used on aluminium , and the finish is ever so smooth . Keep up the excellent work Patrick Belgium

[@mrbreezeet1]

l only have the little 10" logan, and as you know, the spindle will not allow a 3/4" rod or drill rod stock to pass through. and of course l don't have collets, but I guess I could go with 5/8" and would have to use my 4 jaw? You say to bore it, I would need to have the rod dialed in 100%? I can understand that. Is that just HHS cutter you have used to face it off? I need to get better grinding my HHS cutters, as my mild steel sometimes don't even cut very well. I also have an import aloris type tool post, and was wondering what kind of index-able tool holder and inserts you were using on the 2 nd part of this video, where you machined the jacob's tapers off of the #2 and #3 MT. They are a pretty hard tool steel as well are they not? (the jacob's taper)

[@mrpete222]

Sure, use 5/8. Those import jacobs tapers are quite soft. Thats a genuine aloris tool in part 2

[@mrbreezeet1]

mrpete222 OK thanks, What brand, and do you remember where you got the index-able tool holder and inserts you were using on the 2nd part of this video, when you were machining the jacobs tapers?

[@mrpete222]

anthony diodati ALORIS holder #AXA 12 insert TPG 322, I think. Look it up on aloris website

[@mrbreezeet1]

mrpete222 Oh, just a comment, I do not have a mill, (wish I did) So I made the "T" Nut for my quick change tool holder out of some round stock, then sawed sections of it off, to fit in the compound. I am sure you have seen this done. I took an adult basic machine shop course several years ago, but have forgotten a lot of it. I was decent at the time grinding HHS cutters, but not now. I guess some people use a belt grinder or sander instead of a grinder. I do have a belt sander dedicated to metal, I may try that. Here is a link to the T nut, if it will allow it. i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc268/mrbreezeet1/TNut3Save_zps9ec7ed30.jpg i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc268/mrbreezeet1/DSCF0704TNutSave_zps274453cd.jpg Also, you Might like this, I have a lot of woodworking machines, and was (Still am lol) restoring a 6 X 48" Delta belt sander. I was missing the star knobs, and they were wanting too much money for used replacements, so I sot some Old fashioned sink knobs reasonable on e bay, and dialed them in in the 4 jaw, and drilled and tapped the center, then trapped a washer under the cap, where the Porcelain , Hot & Cold would have went. Turned out quite well. i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc268/mrbreezeet1/DSCF0747PB_zpsdc3f6b52.jpg i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc268/mrbreezeet1/001knobUL_zps96581dcf.jpg And since I don't have a mill, I made these by welding 2 piece's of steel stock together, just using a bandsaw, welder and files. It makes up the lock plate for the bottom of the tool post holder for my wood lathe. i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc268/mrbreezeet1/Upload%20and%20forget%202/DeltaBanjoClampplatewelded.jpg I sent you an e mail too, hope that was OK, it should say Anthony Diodati or ( mrbreezeet1 At Frontier Dot Com. )

[@mrbreezeet1]

mrpete222 Thank you, sending you an e mail, (it got a little long, sorry...........LOL)

[@Moronicsmurf]

Drillrod, is that the same as SS2240 steel?!

[@mrpete222]

Try it tomorrow--let me know the results.

[@mrpete222]

ENCO is where I bought mune.

[@tarmo120]

I guess I could use a 4 jawed chuck instead of the collets. As I don't have collets. Dial the bar to run true, center drill and then bore the taper. Result should be similar to the collet method you showed here. Let me know what you think.

[@davidmissirian9267]

In order to make this test bar doesn't that assume that you had a test bar in order to make sure the tail stock on the lathe you are using to make the new test bar is properly aligned?

[@mrpete222]

No, the bar is drill rod, which is tool steel. It has not been hardened.

[@mrbreezeet1]

l have heard (don't know 1st hand how true it is?) that the Piston rod in a Strut off a automobile is 100% ground true and straight. I had two of them when I did my car, but they made me so mad, as a junk man in the area took them with out my permission, from under the outside steps. I was going to cut the rods out, and scrap the struts and some rotors that they stole too. You have to nail everything down around here. I may still be able to get one from the garage where I used to work, but they are getting funny about that too, don't even want you to take home scrap. I guess I can understand it to a point though.

[@ariskatsoulis6939]

if the car has bumped on the side walk is not straight any more

[@thetoecutter13]

I definitely wouldn't trust one from a used strut. The part is being replaced for a reason. You might get lucky but I wouldn't assume they are still true without confirmation. In fact I wouldn't trust a brand new one to be true enough for this purpose. It may be true enough for it's intended application in the strut but not to a standard that would suffice to true a tailstock.

[@conatuslife]

if you had drilled the center in your 5c collet wouldn't it have been true?

[@sammorgan31]

Wouldn't doing the center boring in the steady rest be just as accurate?

[@mrpete222]

+sammorgan31 I doubt it-try it

[@donaldrandall9277]

mrpete222 Using a steady rest would be just as accurate, if not more so, than using a 4 jaw Chuck or a collet.

[@13yearsaprepperr.jtilbury.51]

is there a reason your bench falls to the front ? Thanks for a great vid ,,

[@mrpete222]

Old house, pitched floor, Lazy owner

[@13yearsaprepperr.jtilbury.51]

I dont feel so bad now @@mrpete222 my workshop is in a greenhouse (Glass house ) Im lazy aswell , I can only work 2 hours in the morning or late at night ,,, Australia 40c today ,,,, good way to loose weight ,,,,

[@mrpete222]

Yes-as good as a collet if its truly zeroed out.

[@S10Electric]

Why not center drill the stock in the 5C collet to start with? Thanks for your posts very interesting.

[@geneaguilar4424]

Great. Info. But damn! The video is to long and lost interest after 5-6 mins into it but still a great clip. But speed it up. With all respect. Thank you Gene

[@rongrosstube]

@@geneaguilar4424 Try watching it at 2X, the second half is important as he bores the internal tapered hole to make it perfectly centered.

[@ikerbosque]

can somebody tell me who is the porpouse of the video?thanks:)

[@mrpete222]

It is self-explanatory

[@scheppach69]

Missing your video posts Mr Pete

[@mrpete222]

Yes--use thompsons.

[@dizzolve]

19:15 what do you mean? Boring or Boring

[@Cyruscosmo]

Take a look at a place called speedy metals dot com. On the left go down to metals by shape and you will find a great selection of drill rods as well as hardened and ground rod.

[@mrpete222]

Boring is an operation that requires a hole to start with.

[@stanleyleith6781]

Why are lathes referred to as 9 “ 10” or 13”

[@lormar780]

I do not need to try it I know it works I work in a machine shop and build pump shafts that are 10 to 12 feet long and need to run between centers 0.0005 when they are ground. I recut centers in the end of the shafts all the time

[@kenvsnow]

Why wouldn't you just center drill using the 5C instead of using the 3 jaw in the beginning? Probably would have got just as accurate without having to do the boring.

[@BiddieTube]

Instead of making one, I want to purchase one. Amazingly, about all I can find are some on ebay from India that are dirt cheap. But apparently, the .0001max runout specification is bs. I guess for the price, you can expect lies. I found another cheapo on the net made out of aluminum LOL!! I really need one that is guaranteed accurate to max .0001" Anybody know where this can be purchased? I would like at least three diameters, 1/2", 3/4" and 1". They must be precision ground hardened steel. I am blown away that after searching for about 2 hours, I find only the 2 above junk sources. Someone, please point me to a supplier of highest quality and precision test bars. Otherwise, maybe I can grind some standard tapered arbors on the cylinder grinder,.. but I just want to buy them, not make them.

[@mrpete222]

You may not find one. There is very little market for them and costs too much to make

[@robert5]

Buy the ground stock you need, then put a help wanted ad on your local craigslist for a local machinist with lathe to help you. Try and find some one with a lathe that has a larger through hole and a Collette setup who has the correct size collets you need for your stock. I had some work I needed to do to get a bench top mill rebuilt and since it was my only mill, it could not be used to rebuilt itself. I put a machinist help wanted ad in my local craigslist in the tools section and before long had been contacted by 3 or 4 machinist with offers to help for free. I even had a local guy who turned out to be a retired trucker who went into the machine tool business who contacted me and said he would help me rebuild my benchtop mill or sell me a bridgeport mill super cheap. So now I got a complete 1961 Bridgeport mill for less then 1000 and am super happy. Usually you can find a local machinist who will be glad to help you and you might even make some new friends in the process like I did.

[@lormar780]

why would you not just use a 4 jaw chuck hold it by sticking it it all the way out only holding by a 1/4" and put a steady rest at the other end and it would be 0.000 and anybody could do make a test bar with out needing 6 machines

[@harshpandeyascociatebuyerofrcm]

hi

[@russtuff]

take a looks at 'online metals dot com'

[@mrpete222]

Probably not true enough.

[@mrpete222]

DO NOT KNOW