Magic the Gathering Rules You Might Be Getting Wrong

Answering viewers questions on Magic rules interactions.
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[@edhdeckbuilding]

alot of people asking the propaganda question with regards to goad. remember "can't" always beats "can", and propaganda says "can't attack". furthermore you can never be forced to pay an optional cost. (unless your opponent mindslavers you i guess).

[@Proudfootzorz]

Correct, goad cannot force an opponent to pay the cost of a ghostly prison for instance. So if it's just three of you and the player who didnt goad you had a GP on board you would be forced to attack the goading player unless you wanted to pay the cost for GP. I play goad a lot and whenever I see a GP or propaganda it makes my game much harder.

[@nicholasm2469]

I would add, in Demo's first example, you can tap someone's attackers in response to the opponent going to the attacking phase, as long as it's before they declare attackers. This will not remove them from combat (they weren't yet attacking), but it will prevent them from attacking. I usually say "before you declare attackers, in response" then tap down the creature I think they'll attack with.

[@nanoglitch6693]

When I started playing commander, I thought *any* damage dealt by a commander to a player counted as "commander damage" but it's just combat damage that counts.

[@user-pi2ow7dq4g]

How I love your rules Videos!! Since I barely play these days because of lack of time I can at least educate myself about the rules and learn something about my favorite card game. Thanks so much Demo! Keep the good work coming. Greetings from Germany 🤙

[@Beesechurger_73]

Just subscribed, and I didn't know that first combat info. Thanks for these videos!

[@edhdeckbuilding]

Glad I could help!

[@farty555]

These are just the best videos on rules because I learn something every single time. I had no idea about a player death removing all their abilities on the stack

[@alansmithee920]

9:51 well, closest we have to a time machine is probably karn liberated.

[@jeremycogar4576]

Thanks for the content

[@jacquesdespadas]

I’ve been playing more or less since Revised. These rules videos have really sharpened my game. 🙌

[@edhdeckbuilding]

glad i could help

[@casketbase7750]

Game Loss not using The Stack was a sad truth my old play group found out the hard way. *Elbrus, The Binding Blade* flips when damage is dealt, and it's flipped form has a triggered effect to get thirteen +1/+1 counters when someone loses. But if you deal lethal damage to flip Elbrus, you don't get the counters because Game Loss already happened.

[@Bubbles41412]

wow that's interesting

[@bonidc6732]

I dont get it Elbrus still triggers cause the player that controled Elbrus did not die

[@casketbase7750]

@bonidc6732 but the player who lost is considered to have already been out before Elbrus flips. There's no opportunity to say"You take lethal, and as your game loss is on the stack, I flip Elbrus and get the counters as you die." This is because game loss is a state-based action that doesn't use The Stack.

[@seandun7083]

Oh right, that's interesting. It's specifically because flipping it is a trigger on hitting the player but only the back side cares about people losing.

[@EvertfromNederland]

Oh man. I (meaning we in my old playgroup) misplayed O-ring so many times as it turned out. We always returned the card underneath it to the battlefield after the owner of O-ring died. What a jib. Thanks for clearing that up.

[@bryndenkinnaman895]

Had an interesting situation come up this weekend about goad, the game was down to three players, and both players had goaded all of my creatures, thinking that i wouldnt be able to attack at all, but i explained that i had to attack, and i could actually choose which opponent each of my creatures were attacking and ended up winning on that combat.

[@rraimundobruno]

Okay, but on the Anje Falkenrath example, can I cast the madness spell in response to the opponent's spell or do I have to do it before passing priority?

[@dapperghastmeowregard]

TLDR: No For a breakdown 1. I activate Anje's tap ability. First, I pay all costs (tapping her and discarding lets say Terminal Agony). The replacement effect of Madness puts TA into exile instead of my graveyard. The stack is now 1. Draw a card. Before anybody can do anything, the game sees that I have two abilities that triggered while I was doing that, "Untap Anje" and "I may cast TA from exile." I put them on the stack in either order, lets say I put the Madness on the stack second so it will resolve first. The stack is now 1. I may cast TA from exile. 2. Untap Anje 3. Draw a card. Now I receive priority, and could do something else if I wanted, but I'll pass. Priority goes to my opponent, they cast Murder on Anje. Stack is now 1. Murder 2. I may cast TA 3. Untap Anje 4. Draw a card. Opponent has priority, they pass to me, I pass as well, murder resolves. The stack is now 1. I may cast TA 2. Untap Anje (not much good now, but) 3. Draw a card. Assuming it's my turn, as the active player I get priority again, but pass, opponent does the same. Madness ability resolves, and I choose to cast TA. Stack is now 1. Terminal Agony 2. Untap Anje 3. Draw a card Priority goes to me again, and we just keep repeating until everything has left the stack one way or another. My opponent could have also waited until the madness ability resolves, then cast Murder with TA on the stack, or even waited til TA resolved, then cast Murder before the "Untap Anje" ability resolved, etc.

[@thelunaist2014]

Removes from combat is interesting if a card cares about attacking creatures since you can use Maze of Ith or Reconnaissance to save a creature with Setle the Wreckage or Angel of Dire Hour since it's no longer considered attacking.

[@mse326]

Right regarding reconn, wrong on Maze of ith. It doesn't remove from combat, it just untaps and no damage will be dealt by or to it. It is still considered an attacking creature

[@Proudfootzorz]

He literally talked about this on the video. Maze does not save you from settle the wreckage

[@LVFR3AK]

I have a senerio to add to goad question. What happens when player A is the goader, Player B has a ghostly prison type effect. And player C is goaded with 2 or more creatures but only enough mana for one attack tax on player B. How does that work?

[@seandun7083]

They must attack if able and must attack another player if able. The ghostly prison says player B can't be attacked unless a tax is payed. Goad days nothing about "must pay for any taxes in order to attack" so player C doesn't have to pay for ghostly prison and so the "must attack a player other than you if able" doesn't apply unless they want to pay. The "must attack if able" still does so they have to attack player A with all their goaded creatures unless they want to pay for any number to attack player B instead. That is assuming no player D who would otherwise be the unfortunate recipient of all the unpayed attacks.

[@corbinmayne]

I had an interesting interaction with goad and Crawlspace. I had the crawlspace in play and goaded 3 of my opponent's creatures (but we were down to 1v1) so then we weren't sure which effect takes priority. "can't" beats "can" so only 2 of the creatures can attack me dispite 3 of them being goaded. But the real question was, could the opponent choose to declare non-goaded creatures as attackers (since goading doesn't prevent their other creatures from attacking) and then the crawlspace effect prevents the goaded creatures from being forced into combat. I did ask a judge online and was told that in this scenario, you resolve things in a way that "satisfies as many conditions as possible" so according to the judge, my opponent had to choose 2 of the 3 goaded creatures as attackers and could NOT attack with non-goaded creatures unless there were less than 2 goaded in a turn. And although this does make sense, I'm not 100% sure where this is stated in the magic rules book.

[@atticusdanielson7198]

I’m confused about the rule with copying a permanent. If I use zur eternal schemer to make an enchantment a creature permanently then copy it is the copy a creature? What about effects that are until end of turn does the copy retain those?

[@MutualZebra0123]

Can you tap a vigilant creature and still declare it as an atacker or does it only work the other way around?

[@dapperghastmeowregard]

Vigilance just means it doesn't get tapped when you attack with it, it still can't be declared as an attacker unless it's untapped at the beginning of your declare attackers step.

[@randallstanaway7846]

Probably a dumb questions but if an opponent declares attackers but they are non-creature enchantments being animated by a separate enchantment and I respond by destroying the enchantment animating the other attackers are they removed from combat since they are no longer creatures by the time they would deal damage?

[@edhdeckbuilding]

yes. only creatures can be attacking.

[@hrocxvid]

For the Teysa scenario, I believe the triggers don’t ever go onto the stack. After combat damage is dealt, state based actions are checked, and when they are, you lose/leave the game due to being at 0 life.

[@AleMaciel01]

Im wondering, if there is a phase called the beginning of combat, before atackers are declared, can you tap down creatures then so its not your oponent main phase anymore? Because if you tap down creatures before they move to combat, you are tecnically in their first main phase and they can still use sorcery speed effects

[@Proudfootzorz]

The phase prior is "going to combat". As someone declares they are going to combat (which not many people do) you have an opportunity to respond and tap down potential attackers before they can be declared. This is done WITHOUT any knowledge of if those creatures would attack at all or attack you. The correct thing to do is say "when you move to combat I have a response" so they don't start declaring combat targets before you have a chance to respond.

[@dapperghastmeowregard]

​@@Proudfootzorz Or just let them misplay, if your opponent tries to skip right to Declare Attackers you can back up to Beginning of Combat and tap stuff down with extra knowledge (note that they won't be locked in to what they said before, but you at least know what they were originally trying to do).

[@coreyroberson4550]

The combat phase consists of five steps: Beginning of Combat Step Declare Attackers Step Declare Blockers Step Combat Damage Step End of Combat Step Each player must pass priority in each of these steps in order to advance to the next one. So, yes, during the beginning of combat step, you can cast instants or use abilities to do things such as tapping creatures or bouncing hasty creatures (which can't be replayed until the next main phase, when it's too late to attack). Once everyone passes priority into the declare attackers step, then it is too late because the active player declares all attacks before anyone else gets priority.

[@coreyroberson4550]

@@Proudfootzorz Close, but to be more clear, if you respond when they say "going to combat" or "when you move to combat" it could cause confusion as to whether you are still in the main phase. You want to make it clear that you pass priority in the main phase and then, during the beginning of combat step, say that you have a response before passing to the declare attackers step.

[@JadeHex]

I'm fairly certain I personally know what the interactions are here but I think it would be important to go over *what exactly* happens when the "Legend Rule" applies (Whether or not its sacrificed, death triggers, etc). I mention this because I have a deck where I'm constantly cloning a legendary creature and having those clones die so I often have to explain what's happening.

[@TheJadeFist]

Teysa, Envoy of Ghost would still work if First Strike dmg was dealt and you still had life left before the normal strike damage.

[@Schulazo]

the Lier (old) playing adventure instant and sorceries from graveyard was an interesting one to me

[@edhdeckbuilding]

yeah that doesn't work

[@joedo854]

@@edhdeckbuilding The old Lier actually does work with adventures. When you cast an adventure, the card is considered to have a different set of characteristics (being an instant or sorcery), and 601.3e says that continuous effects that would apply once the alternative set of characteristics are applied are also considered. So Lier's continuous effect giving instant and sorcery cards in your graveyard flashback factors in the alternative set of characteristics that would be used to cast the adventure. This is different than Katilda and Lier, who target an instant or sorcery in the graveyard, which doesn't work with adventures because they're considered creatures at that point.

[@edhdeckbuilding]

@@joedo854 that is the most convoluted ruling i've ever seen.

[@Schulazo]

@@edhdeckbuilding according to different sources (AND arena client) it does. Something about casting needing to move the spell to the stack and then checking for legality. So rules 601, 603. And something about Lier ability being static

[@Schulazo]

@@joedo854 you said it best

[@rescap8731]

Can I exile Tasigur, the Golden Fang to reduce its own cost with his delve ability?

[@edhdeckbuilding]

i'm not even sure what's happening here. your tasigur is in the gy? how are you casting it from the gy?

[@calebrondeau6555]

Hey EDH Deckbuilding, is there a chance you can do a rules video on combat phases, specifically Beginning of Combat. I know many commander players tend to interact when player move to combat without realizing, they will have a priority chance in combat when priority player changes phases from Beginning of Combat to Declare Attackers. I don't really see many content creators discussing it and seems to be misunderstood.

[@wilsoncrunch1330]

If I die and have used a Donate to give an opponent a Nefarious Lich what happens? It should leave as it is a card owned by the dead player so will the "When Nefarious Lich leaves the battlefield, you lose the game." trigger as it does leave the battlefield?

[@seandun7083]

Yes it will. Only the abilities you control cease to exist and only the control effects giving you stuff end so the ability will trigger since they controlled it as it left the battlefield. Note that this won't matter if they were the only remaining player since they will win, but it will kill them if there are still other players left.

[@OverlyCriticalAnime]

You can prevent creatures already attacking with card like Maze of Ith thou

[@edhdeckbuilding]

the creature is still attacking just doesn't deal damage. this is exactly the same (unsurprisingly) as the ith, high arcanist situation.

[@KKKand45]

Question about goad. Lets say i have 2 creatures and 1 is goaded. The only player i can attack with the goaded creature has a sphere of safety. I only have mana to pay for 1 creature. Can i declare attackers the sphere of safety player with the ungoaded creature pay the mana tax and declare that the goaded creature must now attack the player who goaded it in the first place?

[@Proudfootzorz]

Yes, you may.

[@E.F.W.]

What about goading into a player with a Propaganda? Would you essentially have control over your ability to attack? Say you spent all of your mana, would you then not be able to attack that player? Is it that straightforward?

[@daddlebutt]

yes "attacks if able"

[@Y2kRito]

I have a follow up to this. Assume 3 players left. Player 1 Goads Player 2s board. Player 3 has a Propaganda, preventing playing 2 from attacking him without paying mana. Nothing is forcing him to pay the mana, I believe. So player 2 "can't" attack player 3, but must attack, if able. So if player 1 doesn't have a propaganda effect, do they become a valid target for that attack?

[@Ajaydrom]

with such forced effects, you have to fulfill as many conditions as possible. When goading, these are 1. You have to attack and 2. If possible, someone other than the person who goaded your creature. You have to keep in mind that you cannot be forced to do anything other than paying mana for propaganda.

[@SiegfriedDrachentoeter]

@@Ajaydrom You never have to pay Propaganda or Ghostly Prison. It says cant attack unless. So it cant attack. Goad doesnt say "make it attack". Propaganda is a may and since you dont have to pay, even if you have the mana you dont have to attack.

[@wikidclowne6891]

You aren't forced to pay taxes (like Propaganda) so if you choose not to pay it, you still have to attack. If the only player left to attack is the player who goaded you then you have to attack them. If every opponent has a taxing effect in play, then you can choose to not pay any of it and then you don't have to attack.

[@stevensegura674]

Question: if i have a Zedruu the great hearder deck and i gift some one Nine Lives and i die. Do they also lose the game?

[@icecold28]

It depends, you could hypothetically use zedruu’s ability in response to its last ability going on the stack, giving it to an opponent. Then I’d imagine it would trigger for them again (looking at its rulings) and if the stack resolves at that point they would lose before you. So in a two person game you would win before you would lose, however in a 4 person game you and that opponent would lose

[@Dragon_Fyre]

It would be the same as the example with Teysa. The ‘lose the game’ effect goes on the stack but is removed because that player dies. You would have to have this effect take place on the stack before the owner is dead ie. blinking it in response.

[@ShawThing323]

Assuming the game doesn't end when you lose (i.e. there are still multiple players left alive), yes they will lose. The nine lives left the battlefield because you lost, but it was controlled by an opponent so the triggered ability is owned by them.

[@ScorpioneOrzion]

They do die, due to even tho its your owned permanent, its their trigger

[@edhdeckbuilding]

triggers care about who controls them not who owns them.

[@mikewhit2197]

So, after you pay the 50 life, then your opponent cast a lightning bolt to do 3 damage... do you still get priority to counter the lightning bolt?

[@Dragon_Fyre]

Yes.

[@neco-arc]

Yes, you wouldn’t die until the lightning bolt resolves, so you can respond when your opponent puts it on the stack. The cost of pay 50 life, because it’s a cost, happens before the aetherflux ability goes onto the stack to then resolve and deal 50 damage. Costs specifically (like your opponent tapping mana for lightning bolt) happen as you put the spell or ability onto the stack, but then the spell or ability has to resolve for the rest to happen

[@omegacyborg]

you can get priority back to counter it yes

[@seandun7083]

Whenever something is added to the stack, everyone will get priority before it resolves. Once something leaves the stack, everyone will get priority before the next thing resolves or the turn progresses. Keep in mind that the player who currently has priority will retain it after something is added to the stack, but when something resolves priority will return to the active player, but either way it must be passed around the table without anyone doing anything before the game will continue.

[@mikewhit2197]

Thanks yall, time to go buy some counter spells and lose my friends!

[@jasonferguson9052]

I would love a break down on stack when mass multi player grave recurrence happens. My play group thinks I am cheating them..

[@edhdeckbuilding]

not sure what this means. with a rise of the dark realms for example, all creatures would enter the battlefield at the same time.

[@robearto7961]

@@edhdeckbuildingI think he means something like a Twilight’s call or living death and how all the etb triggers go on the stack and in what order they resolve.

[@pantheraminita2676]

I would think creatures have three sub types. Race, occupation and condition. Ex. zombie goblin shaman. But vampire or zombie is a condition of the creature. A Zombie token is technically a zombified human except it's not? Is humanity special?

[@pantheraminita2676]

Zombies are people too😢

[@1996BlueMan]

You need to find a bonfire to become human. Otherwise you’re just a hollow.

[@troylambert1601]

You can use some rules lawyering to sort of remove a creature from combat. A surprising number of people declare attackers before moving to the combat step. You can use the information your opponents volunteer to rewind to main phase and tap down creatures that were comming your way. Its kind of scummy, but perfectly legal.

[@travisclark9462]

If youre running a deck that regularly will be tapping or similar functions the polite thing to do is to remind ppl to declare when they move to combat and move t9 declare attacks. After a couple reminders if they forget tyen thats on them

[@Proudfootzorz]

It's not legal just because someone shortcut going to combat... they still went to combat and you should have said beforehand that "when you go to combat I have a response". You have to declare which creatures you're tapping down before any knowledge of who they would be coming at.

[@troylambert1601]

@@Proudfootzorz its perfectly legal, just scummy. in the scenario you offered, I would be giving away just as much information as you would be by declaring attacks before trying to leave main phase. why should i have to give away my plans for your benifit?

[@derHexenhammer]

If a goaded creature can attack it must attack. So if I have propaganda, and opponent A goads opponent b creature, it has to attack, but not opponent A(they goaded) so that leaves opponent c, and yourself(with propaganda). The goaded creature has to attack opponent c, unless it's controller pays 2 to enable attack against you.

[@christianlei2519]

Just to stack on if every one has propaganda except for opponent A then opponent B creature HAS to attack opponent A (the goader) if opponent B doesn't have the mana to pay for propaganda.

[@9thebigcool]

Funny enough if a creature is goaded by multiple players and must attack a person with ghostly prison the attacker is not forced to pay the mana and the creature does not have to attack.

[@Dragon_Fyre]

“Can’t” supersedes “can” in Mtg. So if they do not pay the 2 for propaganda which is optional, they cannot attack the player with propaganda. The goad creature still has to attack if able and it must be someone else if able. If the only player left is the player that goaded it, it must attack them.

[@Dragon_Fyre]

@@9thebigcoolIt would have to attack, just not the player with propaganda. It functions the same as if you were in a 2 player game.

[@9thebigcool]

@Dragon_Fyre if player 1 had a creature and it was goaded by player 2 and 3. Player 4 had ghostly prison. The when player 1 declares attackers, the rules state that he would have to attack player 4 but is not required to pay in which case the creatures does not become an attacker and does not tap.

[@Synavis]

"When you die, nothing triggers at all" Yes, the dying player triggers nothing on his or her owned cards being removed from the game, but opponents' Share the Spoils still triggers if applicable 😆

[@coreyroberson4550]

Also an opponent's Withengar Unbound, though I've never actually seen that happen.

[@liquidfiretibby]

You're WRONG about abilities on the stack when you die from having zero life. You don't die until state base is checked and that can NOT happen until the stack is EMPTY. If I activate AFR with 53 life, go to 3. Player 2 casts bolt. I go to 0 life. State based actions are NOT checked until my AFR trigger resolves and the stack is empty. We BOTH die!

[@liquidfiretibby]

this is the same reason Goyf can survive a bolt with 3 power and no instants in graves

[@liquidfiretibby]

Teysa WILL kill opps creatures.

[@edhdeckbuilding]

sorry but you're just wrong, and likely playing the game incorrectly. i suggest playing on mtgo, it clarifies interactions like these.

[@edhdeckbuilding]

i'm not sure where you got the idea that state-based effects are checked when the stack is empty but that's absolutely not true. they are checked whenever any player would gain priority.

[@MagusFlorren]

Why are you yelling?? 😅