MAGICCON VEGAS RECAP and CONTROL vs STAX IN cEDH - THE PLAY TO WIN PODCAST

Dylan and Cam discuss their time at MagicCon Vegas and talk about the difference between control and stax in cEDH
SUPPORT THE SHOW:
PATREON - / playtowin
DRAGONSHIELD AFFILIATE LINKS -
The US LINK - www.dragonshield.com/webshop/...
The EU LINK - www.dragonshield.com/webshop/...
TOKENS/PLAYMATS/SLEEVES/COINS - www.playtowinmtg.com/merch
SHIRT DESIGNS - www.bonfire.com/store/play-to...
TCG PLAYER AFFILIATE LINK - shop.tcgplayer.com/magic/prod...
ALTERSLEEVES - www.altersleeves.com/playtowin
LINK TREE - linktr.ee/playtowinmtg

[@kylehill]

I'm just glad we got to hug.

[@PlaytoWinMTG]

Finally!!!!

[@scrybabies]

Nice shirt Cam 😉 So much fun hanging with y’all in Vegas!!

[@estebanjenkins4832]

I'm getting one!

[@gambitgaming5419]

Hey! That Kinnan player was me 😂. I should’ve jumped on playing slicer, but I’m new to CEDH and had an awesome time! THAT DAMN GRAFDIGGER’S CAGE DYLAN!

[@worms35]

I think the biggest difference between tempo and control is that tempo applies pressure so you are actively pressuring life totals whereas control is perfectly happy having a board with no creatures until it presents a combo or unbeatable threat. Some control decks will have tempo pieces but i think to be a tempo deck it needs to focus around this. Yuriko as a good example of tempo.

[@metalplaysgames]

i wish i would of saw you guys at the hall instead of the airport on the way home lol would of loved to get a game in

[@danarennick7003]

Not sure how long you've guys played or not, but back in the day we used the term aggro-control to describe, what today we would call, tempo. So, your description was spot on.

[@JacobBos1988]

I was a die hard tempo player back in the Legacy days. Nimble Mongoose and Goyf backed up with counters was so sweet. I still miss my foil mongeese😢

[@MarcoMBaca]

Cam, I have a fairly casual Kenrith deck devoted to breaking the artifact Acorn catapult. There's a combo in it I stumbled across that can be a little outrageous. It involves, Kenrith, Smothering Tithe, and Whirlpool Warrior. Basically it wheels over and over by returning whirlpool warrior repeatedly from the grave, forcing opponents to feed Smothering Tithe. If you can get through two or so cycles without being interrupted it creates enough treasure to put more activations on the stack ahead of interaction. Eventually allowing you to draw the table out. It's quirky but effective.

[@Bearvas]

15:00 I love these discussions during the podcast!❤ Two reasons: Nr. 1) there is a lot of perspective shared and not just one. I love how arguments are allways paired and presented with counter arguments. Assessing these individual cards in the current context of a, quite frankly, really diverse meta game environment and helps evaluate new cards or older cards in a much more educated way. Nr. 2) because we all pitch our current pet commanders in cEDH😂😂 I am currently tweaking my Borboryghmos and Fblthp deck and I genuinly love hpw os a 5 mana oh you get all this miniscule and almost irrelevant things, but at the same time I do them all at once. 😂 The removal part on BorboFblthp is really niche. You often have lands, but getting him out early is only viable when you start off or get to kill mana dorks, Tymna's and small value creatures like that. The card Draw, allthough nice is mostly or almost exclusively relevant for Food Chain and Dockside Loops. But he is a win con that can build pressure and draw cards if necessary.

[@tylerhennessy2701]

It was great to meet you and watch you jam a few games. Next year I’ll hopefully have a CEDH deck finished and ready to play.

[@konigsbergmarshal1695]

had a great time meeting y'all! (Your signature constitutes proof niv mizzet is the best card engine commander :P)

[@michaelatbarnett]

I love Dimir more and more to watch and to play these past couple of years. I think it goes to that final conversation the guys were having about tempo and control being "responsive," and I think that why. Both in playing casual and watching cEDH, it feels like a style that rewards interacting both with the cards and with the pther players. It makes things more fun, in a sense? I love commander for the social aspect, and Dimir feels right in line with that.

[@g.o.bgaming7454]

So I’m starting to get into cEDH. Been watching a lot of P2W videos over the last few months and the control v stax discussion solidified my choice of the first deck I want to play. I’ve always loved the pure oppression of old stax decks but most lose the ability to be reactive. After consuming a ton of cEDH content. I going to build Tayam. Because it’s a reactive stax deck that plays its selected pieces at instant speed. Keep up the great content.

[@chiefchowmein5498]

It was great meeting you guys at vegas 👋

[@eucoliptus]

lol it was still a lot of fun playing Kinnan vs you guys 😂 I've been going in more heavily on "copy" effects in blue with machine god's effigy, phyrexian metamorph, and even Mirrormade to go against all the powerful creatures, enchantments, and The One Ring everyone is playing

[@lokifeyson]

thanks, great little conversations

[@akroma2170]

Got Out of school early. Immediately put on the podcast. Love you guys and your content, great podcast as usual

[@tacobell2009]

Cam, you might have more fun with a turbo Rocco list. Most turbo lists run a decent amount of burn spells as part of their combo packages, which also function as normal removal spells for drannith and opp agent. At the same time, the deck remains a toolbox deck, with quite a few flex slots that you can cater(no pun intented) to your own meta. It's very fun, fast and flexible!

[@mansolo4517]

I appreciate the name drop at 36:00!! You guys are the best. Till next time....

[@stormtrooperjeepjk]

What happens in Vegas stays in vegas

[@dantebeleren]

Is a lie

[@PartisanGamerDE]

Obviously not ... *gestures around*

[@TripsAhoy]

Pretty much except for STD's

[@FenixConfecciones]

Except for Herpes...

[@SmashCentralOfficial]

They've actually changed the slogan because everyone is just conservative now lmao

[@samuelbeall439]

Great to meet you guys! Thanks for letting me know that Ayula, Queen of Bears is NOT a cEDH commander! Where as Carpet of Flowers IS a cEDH card! LOL! Fun times.

[@masonishope2765]

I am in love with the idea of blood pod, as you tweak your list could you do a deck tech video on your thoughts of the deck in bowmaster world? Or share the decklist link in a video sometime?

[@jakehenry6839]

Nice to here about k'rrik. My only real cedh deck

[@tora17]

I need to look up the white green selvala deck lol she was my first edh deck and I took her apart when paradox engine was banned. I loved that deck

[@wasmachstdugern1]

Thanks for the great rundown of the tournament! I play a lot and want to keep up with the format but jesus christ things move so fast these days. This why I play high power and not cEDH anymore. So much to keep up with. Thanks for keeping us abreast of it though!

[@joskajiri]

oooh my favorite sweater 💖

[@pearcehubbart3767]

I accidentally gave a tivit the game last night by giving them clue every time. They had exiled practically all deck and said they were just hoping someone else had a win con for them to copy. They ended up getting a turn playing abolisher, and phyrexian metamorphing a copy of the lab man on field, and then cuz of my last two votes for clue They had just enough to draw all the way to win.

[@andythomas6236]

Never been to a larger event but would love to some day! I did take 1st out of 36 at my lgs a few Sundays back with my Korvold list. Would love to play it against yall one day

[@jonlamoreaux2228]

stax and control synergize so well together. if you can limit the amount of spells your opponents play each turn (rule of law) and then answer the one spell they can play with counter magic or removal, you are effectively locking out the board. I think thats why they esper shell is so incredible in cedh

[@janmelantu7490]

26:11 “that’s the sign of a good deck, you don’t have to play bad cards that are good with your commander” as the North 100 people say, “you don’t need bad cards to make your good cards better”

[@egoish6762]

I got myself an academic from the prof for my cedh stuff since it was the only box i could find that would hold a triple sleeved deck. I've been building up to have a few more deck options and i've found one of the draws is a good place to hold the extra cards, got bluefarm, will/lucas/lurrus and kess, working on adding dihada and tivit to the stack. Now i've rambled all that out how do you guys transport your 4 decks each, are they all seperately sleeved up or do you share cards or proxies across the decks?

[@kingcherubix7064]

Are you guys gonna do a review of the dr.who cards? Because based on what ive seen there is some interesting cards and commanders in there. Especially that 1 white card that is basically like a heroic intervention for everyone and a “cant lose the game” card

[@coltonholder4649]

Been thinking of putting K'rrik back together (it was my first cedh deck before I moved to Raffine), how do y'all think the deck looks after playing it at Vegas?

[@oscarperezcame]

The One Ring is really busted.... I've seen it in commander, legacy and modern and it is a game changer!!

[@Punisher1818]

Man if only yall was coming to command fest in portland Oregon. I just got some merch for my decks

[@nthnthms1212]

Portland, yuuuck.

[@DOLOTread]

Tivit with tamiyos journal 👌🏾 pristine they never expect you to just cash em in 😂

[@Infraclear]

I'm putting Kinnan together (maybe by summer 2024). If I played you guys and lost, I would be in very good company. Props to Tyler for piloting it so well that people fear losing to his buddies.

[@jakestromberg9128]

Big fan of the cardigan

[@petrichor1017]

Best cEDH channel

[@BrunoPk25]

Where can I find the decklists? Specially Silas Rograkh

[@jaspertenhaken9751]

Im curious, you talk about how good rhystic is (and obviously necro is also quite the powerhouse) . And how good tevesh is due to the esper shell just being powerfull. So How do you feel about zur? It doesn't carry the wincon aspect/ beatdown aspect tivit does but isn't it way better? (mostly due to the stronger card advantage) its pretty much just rhystic in the command zone right? Is it just due to slow due to it needing to attack? i doubt that no?

[@jonathankowatch6947]

I love tivit. Question anout the deck though. Do you run havengul laboratory? Or is that too slow in Cedh?

[@Ivantheterrible666]

Wayy too slow for competitive. If you're at the point of sacrificing three clues in one turn, there's probably something better you can be casting. The effect is also a little soft and requires a creature to be in the yard.. not worth it if you are trying to keep up with other cedh decks.

[@MultiScuf]

Show us the Kenrith List Updated Cam!

[@kaijukraken]

By any chance, do you have the decklists that you played on las vegas?

[@joedunkelberg5054]

I love Cam's outfit, where can I get sweaters like that!?

[@PlaytoWinMTG]

Cotton On!

[@trelee9865]

Do y'all have y'all's deck lists posted somewhere? I run Kenrith, and I'm curious how different the lists are

[@PlaytoWinMTG]

Yes they are on our moxfields

[@damo9961]

They should print Drannith Magistrate on a mono W legend lol.

[@kristianovergaard1112]

Ever sinde june 2000 Rhystic study have been the best card for multiplayer Magic. Never knew that there was any debate.

[@jakestromberg9128]

What would cEDH look like today without thassa’s oracle?

[@Zen-708]

Every deck is a breach deck.

[@TripsAhoy]

❤❤❤

[@decktechsfordecks]

Time to build an esper deck!

[@dmandman1357]

An idea for a funny short, make a compilation of every time one of you has used the phrase "I would like to present a loop"

[@Adam-pc2cm]

My experience with stax has been that even when you resolve a ton of stax cards and they affect everyone, that just makes you the archenemy. Strategies with a powerful engine like Tayam that also happen to be playing a few stax pieces are much stronger IMO.

[@damo9961]

Really should just leave stax alone until right before your win attempt.

[@Adam-pc2cm]

@@damo9961 Agreed, unfortunately a lot of people don’t do this :(

[@batardglouton5455]

I love abzan and Tayam, but I'm sceptical it will persist in the future. It's a 4cmc 3/3 do nothing card that needs another 3 mana, etb, and counters to get going most of the time. I think people just haven't played enough against it yet.

[@Adam-pc2cm]

@@batardglouton5455 That may be true, but the point still stands. Stax decks that revolve around an engine are better than decks that just play 50 good stax cards.

[@aR0ttenBANANA]

@@batardglouton5455 tbh, people have been saying that since it released and it's been 3 years or something and it's still going strong.

[@itzChopTv]

Cam please tell me you updated your kenrith list for me to copy🤞

[@SteveJobbed]

Cam countered my ad naus ):

[@warrenm72]

I wouldn't get rid of culling ritual in Kenrith. It wins most the time when cast and is usually castable

[@jamesmorris5151]

I'll say what I notice with a lot of stacks players is they don't play the right stacks pieces instead they try to play the 1 sided stacks pieces that effect everyone but them and it almost always ends up in accidental king making, along with the lack of ability to close out the game. Been on Elivere testing her capability to be able to get out from your own stacks pieces. so far I am liking her and I don't feel like I am accidentally king making as I did when I was playing steamed ham or Sythis. Also for my fellow Kinnan players for the love of god(s) run M.G.E. + Devo. druid + emergence zone + Borne Upon the Wind. *all blue players should be running Trick Bind, same respect Angel's Grace for white both stop thoracle wins outside of a counter balance. you can snag so many wins out from under people, have you ever seen the salt in a Thrasios Bruce players eyes when you MGE their druid and win, its oh so satisfying. (MGE = Machine God Effigy)

[@DylanD_]

Not sure if you’ve covered this before. What are your guys thoughts on cEDH being a separate format? Instead of a ban list having more of a points list like Canadian Highlander. This all comes from the idea that cards like orcish bow masters and dockside coming out and warping the format around them.

[@PlaytoWinMTG]

It won’t fix anything, I’ll just play cEDH with the EDH banlist and ignore the new format. There’s already something like that called “conquest” or something and it seems much less fun. I don’t want these cards banned, I want to play with them

[@dakotasanford5570]

Hey weird question but im looking for some help on a cedh deck and getting into cedh. There arent any people around me to help. Do you have any suggestions on online places to go?

[@joshkay1530]

My first go-to is the decklist database, which is a list of cedh decks. If you're looking for help on a particular deck/commander, you might be able to find them there (unless it's a particularly off-meta one), and most commanders have a discord community associated with them where you can bounce ideas off others. Can't say too much about finding games online, though.

[@Medicinalmagic911]

Tempo Malcolm & Dargo. Blue moon. 🌙 All these 4/5 color piles can get stuffed.

[@amaraleksandr2645]

Your tournament still happening?

[@mathieu9613]

goblin sharp shooter and hidden strings?

[@justinhuber5497]

Run cover of darkness with najeela. Card single handedly wins games. Insta win with grim hireling

[@joskajiri]

i fookin hate the fact that u r from us and not europe, i'd love to play w/ u one day 💖 same as i hate how little cEDH events we have here.. sucks af(( 💔

[@ironhorn17]

I'm very curious what that kenrith list is.

[@PlaytoWinMTG]

www.moxfield.com/decks/uxQsv2sMfEWnLFzdX0a0JQ

[@linus437]

Nobody playing Sisay over in Vegas?

[@samuelbeall439]

@Cam can you drop your MoxField Kenrith list?

[@PlaytoWinMTG]

www.moxfield.com/decks/uxQsv2sMfEWnLFzdX0a0JQ

[@willzang3000]

fuck i love you guys

[@zaneearldufour]

I haven't played in a while. Sounds like my favorite bad deck (Edric) wouldn't even be fun any more 😭

[@ultratilths6640]

bowmaster good humm

[@nickrossi5992]

But the question is-who is Ms. Direction and why do you love her? 🧐

[@aR0ttenBANANA]

I can surmise Cam doesn't run Druid Kenrith if he feels neoform isn't worth it, right?

[@PlaytoWinMTG]

Cam is not a Hermit Druid fan

[@NewSchoolPOKERstrat]

I love the humility you two always show even when you have something to say. I’m a bit older than you both and I can promise it will serve you well. I played a live no proxy event recently (top 4’d btw, w Malcolm Tana) and ran into a pretty well known girl. (Who also top 4’d) I do like her, and I had some fun interactions w her, but the level of confidence she had in virtually all of the words she spoke made me feel embarrassed for her (and when it was a ten minute rap about how my deck isn’t a “real deck” it was even kinda frustrating). Some of her arguments weren’t even “her opinion” but literal facts that she was absolutely wrong about. “Ian would never say Malcolm Kediss was one of the top 10 decks of the month in tourney cedh” There aren’t any Atraxa decks not playing foodchain” etc. There is so much of that attitude in all these 20 something kids who literally think they’ve got the game wired because they’ve studied it for 2 years 😂😂 (I came up in NLH during the poker boom and we thought that stuff too. We were at least mostly wrong about almost every single thing we thought we knew back then but had to wait for computer modeling to catch up to find out what we didn’t know) it’s going to be the same for cedh I can guarantee it. On average the minds engaged in our game are not at the level of the average mind trying to crack pot limit Omaha in 2005 and the stakes are so much lower. Not only that, but your attitude of humility and lack of ego is just so much more fun to be around. You two are smart guys w obviously big hearts and have manage to find the sweet spot between imposter syndrome and the Dunning Krueger effect 😂. Love you both. 🖖stay humble without being horribly self conscious and awkward.. that’s the Middle Way. 🖖 Namaste

[@yiflux5124]

Goblin sharpshooter is just meh. U have to wait a turn. And ur waiting a turn to just ping a creature? Why. Sure it’s a combo piece, but ur in 4 colors. There’s gotta be something better

[@BigMikePlays]

Thassa so boring.

[@Trivedi_Tuesdays]

You guys are great, keep up the good work kings 🫡