Making Concentrated Ammonia

[@ExtractionsAndIre]

Anyone getting up to some cool chemistry or general projects over the Easter weekend??

[@gabrielgray817]

Was making phenolphthalein when I got the notification! I got phenol on my phonecase I was so excited. Probably should take care of that.

[@BackYardScience2000]

We are going to attempt to make bromine, distill sulfuric acid, melt some metals and make some alloys, and build a new fume hood in our lab.

[@shadowassassin4530]

Made some chloropentaamine cobalt (III) chloride & some sodium oxalate for another project :)

[@psycronizer]

erm...yip.....my ...why don't you rig up a suck back trap ? so that your reactants are trapped into a second bottle rather than transfer all the way back to your reactor ?...but at least your way forces all of your NH3 into your solution....hey, btw, ask me if you have something in mind to make but don't know how or think it might be too hard....I can likely help...

[@psycronizer]

I assume you will be using a vacuum to distill your acid ?

[@johndoe-qn2mm]

"If I have to make it, you have to watch it." Guess I have to watch this now

[@joshkeitz2990]

Damn right

[@gtbkts]

Same. Lol

[@ExtractionsAndIre]

Sorry I keep cranking the saturation up on the videos so the colours are a bit weird. Hitting that line between exciting and realistic is hard

[@melaise9658]

its a good style~

[@vegetablescankill]

It looked good man!

[@gitbig333]

Looks nice man.

[@NevinWilliams71]

A check-valve, all by itself, might abate the succ.

[@trippiechris1852]

The words “abate” and “succ” are not something i thought id hear together

[@j_sum1]

Bubbler and pump seems to be a good technique. Doing it at 35° without any ice for the collection flask is another thing. I am with you on the ammonia smell: anything to avoid releasing that gas into my breathing space.

[@ExtractionsAndIre]

In retrospect, yes, I should have used ice cooling to increase the absorption!

[@VerbenaIDK]

i never wiffed ammonia, now i feel like smelling it it dhouldnt be worse than low concentration of pure chlorine, right?

[@j_sum1]

@@VerbenaIDK it's different. I think Cl2 lingers a bit more and is real dangerous if the concentration is high. Ammonia is a sharp assault on the nasal passages and sticks in the back of the throat. I do not know how they compare at the same concentration.

[@VerbenaIDK]

@@j_sum1 i dont think ammonia would be as bad as chlorine in terms of hurting nose i need to get some ammonium bicarb soon to make some ammonia so ig ill find out

[@VerbenaIDK]

@@j_sum1 my ammonium bicarb arrived, made some ammonia gas and i few like dying when i smell even just the ammonium bicarb deconposing horrendous, worse than chlorine, even if i only smelled it in small concentration, atleast it's good to some extent, i kind of like it but ammonia just fuck it, slightly weirdly sweet sharp (also weirdly, it's familiar? i dont think i ever smelled ammonia before but it seems like i did) nothing like i expected, i expected pungent strong urine not this shit that destroys my nose atleast i can make hydrazine later when i feel confortable and make sone explosives but goddamn fuck this shit also ammonia doensy linger on the throat for me, it stays in the nose for a while and has a weird cooling effect on my nostrils, and the smell lingers quite a while and like tom once said in the first video of nitrotetrazole synthesis, it gets the eye too, my eyes are still kinda watery from trying to make ammonia, i can sme ammonia before it fucks my eyes up i think but god is it bad, atleast a cool gas

[@FullModernAlchemist]

Ammonia happens to be one of my favorite gasses. Ammonia chemistry is cool stuff. As a fellow nitrogen enthusiast I would have figured you’d like ammonia. What gives!?

[@gitbig333]

Yellow Chem Bad

[@thecynicalone7655]

Watch his video on tetrasulfur tetranitride

[@chrisspeedofficial]

I'm a RHAVC technician by trade and in my early years I helped maintain a huge industrial refrigeration plant that ran on 100% Ammonia (R717). You'd hate that job! haha. I remember we took some back to the office in a jar for them to smell, cleared them out! haha

[@alllove1754]

Everyone loves ammonia, especially anhydrous homemade. For fun, make a saturated solution of your favorite birch proton solvated alkali metal of choice. Once the ammonia has gone from super royal blue to coppery bbs, see if u can safely symphonic off these liquid metal complexes. Now watch how they react with regular concrete. Witness the glorious redux of limestone, the crater created, and the idk what rock created

[@AguaFluorida]

Great that the air pump trick works. Another way to absorb a highly soluble gas in a liquidis by using two Drechsler bottles joined together via their dip tubes. The water goes into the second bottle in the chain. Any suck back is delivered to the first bottle. Failing actual Drechsler bottles this can also be botched together with Erlenmeyer flasks, glass tubes and thermometer adapters.

[@WayfarerTechnologies]

that look when you said "the usual chemistry". priceless.

[@spiderdude2099]

Easy fix: Bubble the ammonia through water using an inverted funnel trap. It’ll prevent suck back.

[@spiderdude2099]

@QueHubo Parcero have you ever seen an inverted funnel trap be used before? It’s not possible to pull that much liquid in before the water level goes too low and breaks the seal of the liquid at the end of the funnel. That’s the whole point

[@gabrielgray817]

Sulfur dioxide is worse Change my mind

[@ExtractionsAndIre]

Sulfur dioxide is easier to generate and dry than ammonia, and it's higher density makes it easier to work with than ammonia ;) (although the pain of inhaling it is worse I'll give you that)

[@gabrielgray817]

Ah, well you see I said worse then ammonia. I'm going to have to say no to that compound in general.

[@gabrielgray817]

I guess that makes them equal? You know, one smells bad and the other kills you faster

[@LiborTinka]

Sulfur trioxide still worse.

[@ironmonkey1512]

BF3 is pretty nasty

[@cutiepiecatloveallanimals6602]

Distill ammonia out of cat piss, I’d watch that from afar

[@TheBackyardChemist]

I would argue that NO2 and H2S is somewhat worse to deal with. NO2 tends to eat your tubes and the nitrate/HCl/copper reaction that generates it is a pain in the ass to deal with. It has some really nasty habits of being temperature sensitive or maybe even autocatalytic to some extent. You put everything together it does almost fuck all, you heat it, it starts, and before you know it, you have to cool it with a water bath to prevent a thermal runaway. Needless to say, runaway NOx production is something you want to avoid if at all possible. As for H2S, the gas is hideously stinky, your neighbors will smell it, the neighbors of your neighbors will smell it, and to top it all it is super toxic and deadens your smell, so you have no idea you are in danger.

[@ironmonkey1512]

Used to do Birch reductions in liquid ammonia, when you throw the chunks of sodium in the reactor the ammonia would come out in a 'whoosh'

[@finnanutyo1153]

Im sure you did it in a 2 liter soda bottle

[@eby6114]

So you might try an adjustable diverter air valve in the future. You could crack it open ever so slightly. And have a constant steady stream of air.

[@AsymptoteInverse]

When I was younger, I kind of liked the smell of household-strength ammonia. Then, one time at work, I had to help unload a truckload of one-ton bags of composted chicken manure. (Long story.) That stuff gives off a shitload of ammonia as it decomposes, especially when it's humid (which it always is around here). When there's a lot of ammonia in the air, that stuff really takes on a throat-stinging, poisonous, suffocating quality.

[@edgeeffect]

Hur hur hur.... "shitload" I love lots of "nasty chemical smells".... but, amonia? Nooooo!

[@laboratoryofliptakov8157]

I estimate, that on right side missing cooling ice bath for good absorption NH3. Also high measurement glass cylinder should be much better for absorption. Immersed in the ice bath. I estimate, that you have a big losses. Is it a pity. Your aparatus is otherwise perfect. Thanks for sharing....Good Idea with external air.

[@ExtractionsAndIre]

You are right, I should have cool the solution! But with the air bubbler on the end, a long column is not needed, I didn't smell any ammonia leaving the solution!

[@laboratoryofliptakov8157]

Interesting, that ammonia process was without smell. Maybe, that the bubbles with normal air increase absorption of ammonia gas.

[@nathanpimental4409]

Actually a pretty genius method...nice work!

[@abroquet2189]

I have tried making small amounts of ammonia by heating lime with urea test tube with a rubber tube receiving the gas. Calcium carbonate is also produced. Then you have a glass funnel to prevent backflow to your reaction vessel.

[@abroquet2189]

@Benjamin Joshua Beggs That's true. I am trying to find a use for it, since I have plenty.

[@anthonyshiels9273]

When I was in the Junior Cycle in Secondary School our Chemistry Teacher demonstrated the super solubility in water of both Ammonia and Hydrogen Chloride in gaseous form.

[@sazxcdewq123]

You can also mix water, NaOH and ammonium salt and reflux it.

[@terawattyear]

Ammonia is pretty rough. I have to say the “Red death” gas is my least favorite. (NO2). Just about asphyxiated myself with it making Nitric Acid once.

[@Dirkietje8]

@Benjamin Joshua Beggs Uhm at our middle school we we're doing it with some copper strip and concentrated nitric acid on the benches out in the open. So the fumes while not a big quantity were just escaping into the room :) This other time we worked with ammonium dichromate. That was fun as well.

[@h0lx]

Yeah, once when I attempted nitration of starch as a teenager, I got a runaway reacton on my parents closed balcony, It was horrific, everything was dark red and red fumes were pouring out. Everything metal was corroded after that.

[@mcore1435]

I love working with ammonia it’s one of my favorite chemical smells 🤤 yes I’m one of those weird people lol

[@smeggerssmeghead3100]

6:45, " just now", Great South African saying.

[@LiborTinka]

I use two connected wash bottles. When suckback happens, the liquid just moves from one bottle to another.

[@ExtractionsAndIre]

Doesn't it get all gross from the tubing it goes through? Or is it just me that uses filthy old tubing oops

[@LiborTinka]

@@ExtractionsAndIre I used a small piece of some cheap rubber tubing I had on hand (should have checked the compatibility) - in my case I needed less than 10 cm to connect the bottles and it haven't shown any deterioration (I could use PTFE but the bottles are not the same type and you know how hard it is to bend or attach this material - I am still trying to work out an all glass setup for ammonia solution production). It was however such a short piece of tubing I was able to wash it with a brush. I may try the setup used in Doug's Lab "Ammonia Generator" video - here he was dripping ammonium salt solution on sodium hydroxide, then heated the resulting solution to drive rest of the ammonia out of the solution. Maybe this could limit the suckback but he said he has suckback issues also. I tried few times and the suckback with ammonia is evil - even if I watch out for it - it always happened spontaneously and vigorously.

[@user255]

I use the same. If you connect the tubes correctly the saturated solution will be pushed back to the initial container. It really is the easiest and simplest solution.

[@ebonfortress]

Love the Aphex Twin soundtrack

[@cognitivedissonancer]

My $0.02 : I've generally mix dry ammonium nitrate and sodium hydroxide and add water dropwise, which generates the ammonia more quickly and irregularly, but keeps it mostly coming out of the generator. I'm surprised you didn't get any suckback, though I've seen some bubblers that act as passive one-way valves due to the fine pores. For the dissolving process, and for most gas dissolutions, I think a tall container, like a measuring cylinder or precipitation tank, is recommended, so you give your gas more distance to travel and chance to dissolve. Since solubility decreases with temperature, chilling the absorbing liquid will increase the final concentration. You can determine the concentration by the weight of ammonia absorbed.

[@UBeTrollin11]

"It's a bit of a shit" missed opportunity could have said piss

[@doyale2]

Eyyyy congrats on 5k subs!

[@ExtractionsAndIre]

Eyyy thanks!!

[@sunoncream1118]

hoo youve some friend waiting for this amonia to be able to purify theyr cocaine XD thats so cute

[@lildvsvevo]

I’ve somehow started watching the Extractions and Ire channel without realizing it, wondering why he’s censoring Explosions and Fire 🤣

[@pryonation]

4:20 Where is her lab coat and goggles??

[@StephenCoda]

If you've got two check valves do you even need the pump? When the pressure drops in the flask the check valve on the water side would stop the suck and the air check valve would just pull in air negating the obvious need for the pump. My guess is the pump will be diluting the the ammonia gas and presumably mean it doesn't all contact the water, so it just bubbles out into the air making it less efficient? Unless I'm completely wrong there somehow; wouldn't be the first time.

[@Hobypyrocom]

the best way to make ammonia solution is by using ammonium nitrate and sodium hydroxide, there is no way to dissolve all amount of the ammonia it will produce to get that sucking back of water in the reaction vessel, no heating required ether... and the byproduct is great, sodium nitrate which can be used for many other great things ;) i am preparing such video on my main channel for this...

[@ExtractionsAndIre]

That's cool, although I always worry about using up my ammonium nitrate, because it's hard to get more!

[@Hobypyrocom]

@@ExtractionsAndIre here we can buy bag of 50kg for $50USD... you can get it even cheaper if you have a friend with farm, they are using like tons of it in the fields... sadly you cant find potassium nitrate, that's how i found out about the reaction with sodium hydroxide, i was trying to make sodium nitrate actually... i bought my first 50kg bag of ammonium nitrate back when i was only 13y old ;)

[@psycronizer]

go to Bunnings and get Ammonium Sulfate....mix with NaOH..job done....both available there and OTC and easy too

[@jaywashington2196]

Make a video of cleaning your glass

[@ExtractionsAndIre]

It'll just be an hour of me complaining about having to do cleaning

[@mckryall]

@Extractions&Ire that's why we want it. Also, if you haven't been cleaning all the glass you've been using for older videos, I bet you'll have a hell of a time figuring out how to get some of the more unsavory mixes off the glass. It'd be fun to see.

[@bentroyer1]

@@mckryall I really hope this isn't a problem. Mystery chemicals given some of the stuff he plays with not great. Like pretty sure you just throw away the glass ware it's not worth possiy killing yourself if you use the wrong safety precautions.

[@sammyd7857]

I thought you have an honors in chemistry! Quality education system

[@TheHuntermj]

I usually mix sodium hydroxide and ammonium sulphate together dry and then drip a bit of water on it, accelerates pretty quick.

[@ExtractionsAndIre]

I used to do that but I found it always accelerated wayyy too fast for me! Maybe I have a slow reaction speed haha

[@TheHuntermj]

@@ExtractionsAndIreAlso, if you add a large funnel or tube on the end of it big enough to accommodate all the water, it, it can stop the suck back

[@TheHuntermj]

Might get some gas escape tho

[@ExtractionsAndIre]

@@TheHuntermj yeah that's a good option. Simple, and usually works well, I have done it a few times. But I needed to practise this setup because I have to put dry ammonia into a flask that won't fit a funnel, and can't have any suckback!

[@PartialScience]

I came up with another method of preventing backflow a while ago using a piezoelectric buzzer. It might be a bit more efficient because it should capture a lot more of the ammonia at higher concentrations, although I'd say the bubbler is definitely easier lol. I've linked it below if you wanna check it out. kzbin.info/www/bejne/rZrCZnt3adStoNU

[@spiderdude2099]

One thing that’s crazy is how soluble ammonia is in water. If you have azeotropic ammonia solution, it’s close to 30-33%. And that’s by WEIGHT. Meaning that 30% of the liquid you have is pure anhydrous ammonia.

[@TheBackyardChemist]

Also, recently I found an interesting video idea, an energetic material that would be neat to see : cyanuric triazide. Apparently it is a super powerful primary. The big problem seems to be sourcing the cyanuric trichloride.

[@ExtractionsAndIre]

I have heard of it and it looks super scary/exciting, but yeah I also hit that roadblock of cyanuric chloride. Hard to make, hard to get.

[@TheBackyardChemist]

@@ExtractionsAndIre lol, yeah, no shit it is hard to make, I for one really do not want to make cyanogen chloride, especially since it is a listed chemical weapon, so probably would get you in trouble

[@Felixkeeg]

The fucking fluorine lab next door. Jesus Christ, on day something will go horribly wrong

[@ExtractionsAndIre]

😍😍😍

[@nikolaiturcan6963]

Can I suggest something? Would you use a Measuring Column for the recipient with Water to solubilize Ammonia if you had to do the ezperiment again? I was thinking that if the Airstone was at the bottom of a column the bubbles generated would be in contact with the water for a longer period of time , making less ammonia escape .

[@vincedibona4687]

Nice & clean. No Y E L L O W .

[@jamez6398]

"My least favourite gas. That is ammonia." Probably better than sulphur trioxide, hydrogen fluoride, or fluorine, to be honest...

[@xeigen2]

I'm guessing he means least favourite he's actually come into contact with. SO3 is rarely used because of how nasty it is and most chemists basically refuse to work with flourine. Whereas ammonia is used all the time.

[@jamez6398]

@@xeigen2 I know... 😄

[@nigeljohnson9820]

Won't this apparatus make a lot of ammonium carbonate. Wouldn't a anti reverse flow valve be a better solution?

[@benabusthethird9751]

Watch you suffer? Isn't that why we're all here..?

[@VerbenaIDK]

Only nice thing about ammonia is that it's useful

[@WeebRemover4500]

mmm.. cant you take Ba(OH)2 and NH4Cl, wouldnt this produce basically liquid ammonia, as its a highly endothermic reaction? im thinking some liquid ammonia should be possible to collect, otherwise some solvent could maybe suck up the ammonia, supposing BaCl2 is relatively insoluble in any solvents other than water i recall something around Ba(OH)2 + NH4Cl reaching down to -50*C or even -70*C

[@NvrchFotia]

Lead vapor isn’t really a gas but whatever it’s worse. From experience.

[@ExtractionsAndIre]

Hmm it's hard to argue that one honestly, stay safe out there people

[@matty8944]

Your right there mate! Not only does it smell worse than an outback drop dunny, but it can give you lead poisoning

[@jamesg1367]

Okay, how do you go about making lead vapor? I mean obviously if you heat it enough... but that's a lotta heat. It's fairly inert last I checked...

[@matty8944]

@@jamesg1367 Its pretty easy to make actually. Lead has a fairly low melting point (something like 327 degrees) and can be melted in a pot over a stove. Once Liquefied the Lead will begin to evaporate. The actual rate of evaporation is very slow, however gaseous lead has an extremely strong smell - (smells like cancer mixed with petrol with a wiff of brain damage). Hence you don't have to boil the lead - just liquefy it.

[@NvrchFotia]

JamesG I milled black powder with lead stuff and some of the lead turned to powder. Could smell it when I lit the stuff. Not sure what to do with it now, no good way to dispose of it.

[@Berghiker]

How do you make 6M ammonia water from 25% NH3 liquid?

[@padraicdurham1679]

What is the maximum Ammonia solution possible in an open container at say 35°C (assuming the exothermic reaction when nearing saturation/boiling point) Is henrys law applicable with Ammonia solutions seeing as it has a chemical reaction?

[@mothman1654]

"A bit of a shit: a diatribe on ammonia" By: Some australian dude

[@lamamriaissa1165]

why don't use directe synthetique methode 3H2+N2 +iron pouder +TEMPERATURE+PRESSION

[@zeo_crash7984]

Why is the reaction mixture orange? Both the NaOH and the NH4SO4 were colourless/white as are Na2SO4 and Ammonia, yet the reaction mixture seems to have turned orange.

[@ExtractionsAndIre]

That is a good question, it usually goes a pinky orange. Maybe a phenol impurity in NaOH? Or any aldehydes?

[@kylehawk9055]

I guess I have to watch it

[@RoddHoward]

Can anyone explain you can't MacGyver a I.v. bung? I feel like the only issue would be the gas having a higher resistance to escape due to it being designed for fluid rather then vapor/gas but if that's the case a small three sided stopper would possibly work if you use it with the aquarium pump running 💁‍♂️ similar concept to the dyi treatment a sucking chest wound.

[@BradyReese]

3:55 I thought the theme was you not completing your thesis

[@chrisjones-fp5vd]

Lol accidental ammonia fountain

[@piranha031091]

Can't you just buy ammonia solutions from the hardware store? In France, it's a relatively common cleaning product. I thought it would be the same in Australia.

[@TheHuntermj]

Nope, hard to get without soap in it

[@ExtractionsAndIre]

Yeah, real soapy and dilute

[@piranha031091]

@@ExtractionsAndIre Oh. I guess we're lucky to have access to the soap-free 22% ammonia here! (Why would they even mix it with soap? Isn't the whole point of using ammonia for cleaning that it evaporates without leaving a residue?)

[@psycronizer]

no, that's not the reason...the reason is that ammonia is very basic and has a nice habit of dissolving protein very well, it breaks down organic material like a solvent....we used it for exactly that purpose on casein in the lab once...

[@piranha031091]

@@psycronizer Yeah, but sodium hydroxide works even better for that, and doesn't stink!

[@Taha-hv6yj]

Please let me know if I can make ammonia from cyanates or cyanuric acid cuz I have no access to any ammonium salt 😟

[@tfwmemedumpster]

Can use urea, and you always have access to that because pee

[@jamesg1367]

There is that crazy old obsolete idea of a suckback trap. Just sayin'. ;-) Also aren't there valves that can allow gases but stop liquids? Floating ball kinda thing IIRC. The pump idea is a good one and it obviously worked just fine. Seems to me the airflow would ideally be limited to "just enough." You could modulate the air pump's output more finely by use of a relief valve. Just a branch of tubing at the pump's output with a valve on the end that lets a bit of air out. Opening the valve just right would exhaust the excess and reduce the working throughput to just that light positive flow you really need.

[@psycronizer]

crazy old obsolete idea of a suckback trap.????....not at all obsolete....it is used in heaps of modern industrial process..and lab bench setups....what are you on about ?

[@michaelf7093]

Put a dry trap in to prevent suckback? Anyway, HF gas is far worse to deal with than ammonia.

[@franglish9265]

Not as bad as anaerobic culture plates.

[@clovenbeast5183]

Why don't you just use an inverted funnel trap

[@dougreid1951]

Don't leave the pretty girl out in the sun without a hat.

[@keatontracy6543]

tutorial on how to build that?

[@maxkennedy5073]

Ever determine the ammonia concentration achieved?

[@spiderdude2099]

Eh, ammonia has never really bothered me. I mean, it’s very astringent, so you can’t handle a ton of it without wincing, but the smell itself….eh, try isocyanides and thiols, those are horrific

[@fooferutter3001]

Home cleaning ammonia might as well be phosgene as far as I'm concerned, just super sensitive to its smell in particular. have to wear a respirator if there's a chance of some being produced/used.

[@olivertoth6788]

I hope you're gonna make that ammine complexes vid :3

[@ExtractionsAndIre]

One of these days. But the actual reason I need the ammonia is actually pretty strange, you shall see :P

[@olivertoth6788]

@@ExtractionsAndIre looking forward to both projects then!!

[@justinturner2861]

I approve the girlfriend flex. Who am I? I know. Its just a joke.

[@olivertoth6788]

Why not just use commercial 30% ammonia?

[@ExtractionsAndIre]

I do have close to a liter of conc ammonia solution, so why would I need to make a new one? Well, I'm bad. The next video is where I actually use the ammonia...

[@olivertoth6788]

@@ExtractionsAndIre well I'm not complaining about the new vid though 😂😂 so keep going

[@Amipotsophspond]

does something prevent the commercial 30% ammonia from being distilled up to the required higher concentration? like how drinking alcohol can only get up to 96% by distilling. I don't know ammonia well, I really am asking.

[@hughjanus2252]

Fool, just get a cat

[@williamackerson_chemist]

You think this is worse than chlorine? WTF!? what about bromine? You've dealt with bromine and that is waaaay worse than ammonia...

[@ExtractionsAndIre]

Dude I love chlorine

[@haska9706]

@@ExtractionsAndIre But chlorine is yellow. How can you love it?

[@williamackerson_chemist]

@@ExtractionsAndIre Don't get me wrong. 80% of what I do is chlorinations, but it's still super unpleasant... I just don't understand what you find so repulsive about ammonia lol. It's pretty mild...

[@ExtractionsAndIre]

@@haska9706 chlorine is yellow..... you're right.... hmmm.... Ok no it's actually more of a green. Chlorine is green

[@ExtractionsAndIre]

@@williamackerson_chemist Ammonia is hard to work with for me. It's colorless, so hard to trace. It's basic, so my usual method of drying through conc. Sulfuric doesn't work. It also apparently doesn't like being dried with CaCl2. It is not very dense so it doesn't flow through or sit in an apparatus well. Also, I hate the smell

[@nicktohzyu]

why no ice bath? why use a wide beaker rather than a taller tube?

[@omarvela3154]

can you do an ozonolysis video no one will make one

[@ExtractionsAndIre]

What should I react with ozone?

[@omarvela3154]

eugenol

[@feelinghealingfrequences7179]

4:20 blonde babe

[@mcore1435]

I love when I have to make concentrated ammonia for whatever reason, one of my favorite smells lol I’m one of those weird people

[@wesleymccravy901]

we demand more of the hottie!

[@vitamins-and-iron]

don’t be weird man

[@idontknowmyfirstname69]

Or you could just make a suckback trap before your copper chlorate and drying trap