Marcel Satria | The Catholic Church CAN Pay For Its Sins (4/8) | Oxford Union

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Watch the full debate here: kzbin.info/aero/PLOAFgXcJkZ2xjH4u9_KbkkePU96qO5pdR

[@Joetheshow445]

Damn this is a brilliant defense. If the notion that the Catholic Church can never PAY for its sins, then that means that it’s unnecessary and futile for victims and false victims to get compensation from the church (considering money, repentance, apologies, aren’t sufficient) to redeem their misdeeds. In other words, no reparations = no cash grabbing. Of course the Proposition will jump all over this and abandon their claims bc they want to milk anti-Catholic bias for all that it’s worth

[@meemaflowers9446]

'cash grabbing' interesting term

[@MacLaw3084]

If i’m understanding you correctly, the conclusion doesn’t follow. Whether or not the catholic church can ever repay its “sins”, has no bearing on wether victims should seek compensation. Some retribution is better than none.

[@melg1329]

​@@MacLaw3084information was still withheld and redacted even after a final royal commission. How is that a fair commission? Just saying. The trauma from that itself is unspeakable. False hopes. No money can change the pain. What the offered to the survivors is a fucking circus of shit. 💩💩💩

[@petergriffiths799]

Generally I agree with the other side but this is a good argument

[@nuggetoftruth-ericking7489]

This was extremely interesting. Thank you.

[@paradigmarson9586]

It seems that the cases of sexual abuse in UK dioceses are small enough to be listed in about, I dunno, 20-40 list items in the Wikipedia article. Some of these involve more than one victim. I'm going to pessimistically guess that's 160 people since 1985. If there are 6 milion catholics, that's around, erm, 1 abuse victim per 30,000 Catholics. Okay, so maybe for every reported abuse case, there are 9 unreported cases. So guess 1 victim per 3,000 Catholics. So, 2999 out of 3000 Catholics are unaffected. Those who are affected probably mostly suffer less severe forms of abuse. And if Milo Yiannopoulos' reference in his recent JBP interview was correct, then most people heal and do okay in life. It isn't clear to me that this is something the church 'cannot pay' for. It already provides spiritual guidance to 6 million Britons. That probably offsets the damage if it's good guidance. It doesn't make the damage right; it just means that the church does more good than ill, if its spiritual guidance is good. Of course, if you don't accept that the Catholic church provides good spiritual guidance, you probably won't take much consolation in this. But then you must see that the effect of the religion on people's minds and souls in general is far greater in scale and importance than a handful of abuse cases. This being established, it is clear that abuse is just a talking point that you're not allowed to downplay, for bashing an organisation you already detest for its religious and political influence. This feeling likely stems from historical conflict between Catholicism and Puritanism, and the corresponding ultra-Protestant Progressivism. So, victims are merely being used as pawns, and a talking-point, and a news narrative, in a wider internecine conflict.

[@MacLaw3084]

Both sides should have clarified what they mean by “pay for its sin”. Sure they can pay, but the victims that have to live with it everyday may never feel atonement.

[@cierrafasken7849]

Brilliant

[@MacLaw3084]

5:51 “The motion at hand tonight implies…” How does saying, “the church can never repay for its sins” imply that nothing should be done? It doesn’t. Sometimes apologies aren’t accepted, but you still owe the apology.

[@fwcolb]

Well if we agree, then do we have to pay the Catholic Church for preserving Western civilization from AD 500 to the time of Martin Luther and the Protestant Reformation. Just asking. The Martin Luthers, both the religious reformer and Martin Luther King, are among my heroes. And I was raised as a Catholic and finished my first university degree at a Catholic college attached to a seminary. There I learned the great contribution Protestantism has made to our capitalist economic and financial system and our systems of constitutional democracy. My Catholic professor gave me an A grade for my essay on the subject. In part, I owe my views to my Irish Catholic grandmother who told me that my Catholic great grandmother mistakenly entered an Anglican Church to pray. When questioned, she said, Well it doesn t matter where you pray because God will hear you anywhere. Growing up I never heard a Catholic teacher or anyone in our extended family say a negative word about Protestants. There were doctrinal differences to be sure, but no negative comments and I am now nearly 90. A priest once asked the pupils in my class of 12 year olds to raise a hand if we thought we were morally better than Protestants. Not a single child raised a hand. In my experience, outside of American cults, Latin America, Northern Ireland and a few other enclaves, such as Lebanon, religious prejudice among Christians is one sided. In Latin America anti Protestantism is correlated with anti Semitism. A double abomination. Sorry, lost some of my punctuation keys.

[@GB-vs3uw]

You also have to remember that the Bible (specifically the rules around slavery) was used by white Americans to legitimise slavery.

[@faramisstyle8288]

He from Indonesia?

[@paradigmarson9586]

All the speakers so far have just spewed idealisms and weird moralising rhetoric about 'expectation' and stuff. Nobody has addressed the scale of the abuse. Probably because then you have to make obnoxiously sound arguments that make everyone hate you, like my comment below. So the debate gets reduced to speech-actery.

[@danielhumphrey3836]

This guy misunderstands the argument. The Catholic Church can and should begin paying for its sins, but we argue that it will never be done. It may well be better for the whole thing to just disappear

[@meemaflowers9446]

Thanks, Marcel. So since you think the Church can PAY for its sins, when will they plan on getting started on that? After 600 flipping years?

[@christiancelticwarrior1222]

You don't go very far back in history do you but God is OUR Judge and we will all have to stand before him

[@damnit6349]

Enough with the civil suits and money grabbing, how about we see some PROSECUTION and PUNISHMENT for a change? If they circle the wagons to protect their own, what is the incentive AGAINST being a diaper sniper?

[@GaoDaHoi]

I show this to my students teaching them how to debate when they do not have facts on their side.

[@elchepacabra9658]

Wonder if he would say the same about China.

[@00BillyTorontoBill]

how many died in the crusades? how many died when the Vatican had its own army? Spanish inquisition?

[@elchepacabra9658]

00Billy a lot less than died in the Muslim conquests of North Africa, India and Europe. A lot less than died in Maos great leap.

[@00BillyTorontoBill]

@@elchepacabra9658 do your homework .. 5million died in the cultural revelution but in ww2 they lost 10 million+. Anyway later deaths by non catholic countries is irrlevant to whether the vatican's sins are foregiveable... they arent. China didnt have religious doctrine they wrote then ignore the doctrine.

[@elchepacabra9658]

00Billy 5 million is the very lowest estimate for Maos leap forward the highest is 45 million, let’s take the middle road and say 20 million. And yes I agree the Vatican cant pay for the sins it has caused through history, but what’s the point of single out the Vatican when it was no where near as bad as Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Islam, Buddhism or many other religions. And taken into the context of today the Vatican sex abuse is lesser than governments sex abuses.

[@elchepacabra9658]

00Billy China dosent have religious doctrine..........I guess you’ve never read the CCP manifesto.