"Man-Baby" Brother Has Made Parents Life Awful & Now He's Finally Facing The Music r/Relationships

[@zachf748]

Family : *_"You’re getting kicked out and will be homeless"._* Brother : *_"What about my new graphics card?"_*

[@mbyerly9680]

A disconnect from reality.

[@Tiogair]

Story 2: the $10 fee is nothing in comparison to the audacity of soliciting gifts from uninvited guests. What is wrong with them?

[@Splatoon_Kirby]

Eh some people have friends that while can't come even if invited would still buy something for them. But still kinda scummy. I could see someone getting away with asking guests to cover their zip line fee, if the couple where paying for all hotel, and travel for these people ontop of feeding them and clothing for the wedding. This means all the guests are paying is for a gift, and their zipline fee, anything else they need to attend and fit in at the wedding is covered by the couple. I could se going 'yeah sure.' in that context. It wasn't clear how much they where covering for guests, clothes, travel, hotel, food.

[@atinyevil1383]

Yeah, I'm with you. If it were just that they were having a small wedding at the Grand Canyon and guests paid their own way in, that wouldn't be so bad (especially considering the cost of destination weddings). But the registry thing was tacky.

[@RockyGems]

Also, the $10 per guest when only like 20-ish people will be there? OP and fiance are saving all kinds of money with this wedding if it goes to plan, surely they can cough up $200 to cover everyone.

[@lynnw7155]

And people have to hike in and carry their own chair? I guess the dress code for this wedding is 'lumberjack'.

[@jr5557]

@@atinyevil1383 why is it tacky to post you registry on you social media. Like if she was messaging it to people unprompted I would get that but I feel like it's pretty normal for to post them on their own pages

[@taylorslade961]

Last story: This is the first time I've heard the term "fuckzoned" and I'm gonna be using it from now on.

[@LivBee.]

Exactly. I’m assuming that poster was an r/notlikeothergirls or what is called a “femcel” though based on that terminology lmfao

[@nondisclosure3920]

​@@LivBee.I think it's just a response to the term friend zoned dude. Which women are fed up of frigging hearing because some guy's seem incapable of accepting that a woman would like a friend of the opposite sex. And then punishing them when they don't returned their feelings and even being insulted at the idea of being interested in friendship. It's actually very hurtful to be only valued as a potential sexual partner instead of someone worth knowing and simply hanging out with

[@darthultor6365]

​@@nondisclosure3920it's not per say that we men dont think women would like friends of the opposite gender. Its more that if you are interested in a romantic relationship and you in a platonic Relationship, you're incompetiable as both persons want something else out an relationship. Therefore not persuing said relationship because of that is perfectly natural

[@kelf114]

​@@darthultor6365*Per se. It's Latin, meaning "by itself". Yes, I'm an English Nerd. Yes, I feel better now. Yes, you may yell at me if you wish. 😄

[@darthultor6365]

@@kelf114 thanks

[@MrH347]

Story 3: Zoe doesnt owe OP a relationship and OP doesnt owe her free drinks. Also the only reason thos is an issue is because it seems like the friends are overstaying their welcome and only like the bar because of all the free drinks. And the fact Zoe went out over her way to create drama with OPs new friend just shows how petty she is. This is the issue when it comes to people with privileges others enjoy using. You cant be sure why they really want to hang out with you. OP handled it as best as he could. The friends should.be in support of his families business and not take advantage of his kindness. At some point its either gunna have to be cutting OP out and find a new hang out spot or cut Zoe out and keep enjoying the free drinks.

[@crazyanimegamer5667]

I was almost like the guy from story 1. My parents never gave up on me though and I eventually pulled my head out of my ass. I still live with them but I have a ok job and can contribute to Bill's. To think I could have ended up worse. Makes me shiver.....

[@terramarini6880]

It's sad really, all he had to do was pull his own weight and help his parents through the aftermath of the stroke, they could have all stayed in their home if he had pitched in even the bare minimum by taking house hold chores and such off their plates. Heck family probably would have been grateful and left him the house, but nooo, he couldn't even pull that off. What a dumb ass.

[@masterkonggaming2759]

Good that you're better now

[@ecos889]

Just also to let you know, as long as you contribute in someway to your parents you are not a loser living with them. Despite what others may say.

[@757Bricksquad]

Well your family actually worked with you clearly, they didn’t just enable the behavior like this family has done. ESH in that story, and the parents are the biggest AH. How are you going to enable your child’s lifestyle to get this point and then decide “well I’ve fucked up and it’s too late for you now, guess your homeless” and then his siblings actually being happy about this and relishing in it. Fucking disgusting people.

[@JupitersTears]

26 still live with my family but we live on. A chicken farm and me and my brothers help out on the farm a lot so we're not useless we could do more and are trying to but we don't let our dad and step mom over work themselves

[@SLTheOneAndAwesome19]

Story 3: I need more info. Do his other (male) friends get freebies? Was Zoey aware that the rest of the friend group didn't get freebies? Zoey's the asshole for being petty and causing drama with the girl he invited. But I can't decide if OP is the asshole without knowing if he made Zoey an exception before or after she rejected him.

[@Ravenishish]

I tracked down the post and it looks like because of the composition of the group of friends he actually primarily gives freebies to the guys as they're his close friends and the girls in the group are his friends' girlfriends and Zoe is one more layer out of being primarily the friend of the girlfriends. In which case Zoe was getting special attention because OP wanted to get closer, then respected her no and stopped with the special attention. Honestly if I was Zoe, I'd take a step back and let the pendulum of friendship swing to where it does. Even if they were close friends before this, I'd expect some cooling off of the relationship for at least a little while as emotions process. (Note: that's not to say I'd expect anybody to endure abuse or unfair treatment but some distance while hurts heal is understandable)

[@Magelog490]

Well he did say that he sometimes give freebies to his friend, but not too often. To Zoe however he gave her a lot more freebies than his regular friends. What I want to know is if that night in particular he was giving freebies to all his friends but Zoe, then it would have been a dick move, but by the sound of it they were all paying that night and she was upset cause she didn't had her regular freebies/discount

[@tifadreamers]

@@Magelog490 I don't think it was mentioned that he was giving the other friends freebies on that particular night, judging from the way he said it and judging from his friends' reactions, but it could've been the first time he stopped giving one to Zoe

[@damiion666]

Freebies or not, doesn’t matter. He has every right to give freebies to his close friends of his choice. The entitled trick shouldn’t expect free drinks..Period. The dick move was on her part trying to sabotage his new girl by talking smack about him. This is what caused her to get booted from his invites. Entitled and jealous trick.

[@bribri2925]

Hmmmm I think it’s similar to when a guy buys a girl a drink, and then if she states that she’s not interested you wouldn’t expect him to buy her another drink, right? And Zoe, in this case, would be the girl expecting another drink. It’s not punishment if OP isn’t giving her free drinks Or something like that. Did my input do anything to possibly sway your decision though? (Genuinely curious)😮‍💨🥴

[@AndyyWithAY]

The parent must bear a large portion of the responsibility and I'm glad that OP understand that they are at fault. What you allow will continue. If they'd set the son straight years ago this behavior would've been nipped in the bud.

[@pippo17173]

Situations like this makes me really want a parenting license and mandatory classes for those who want to have kids.

[@definitelyarealperson248]

Yeah. I do find it annoying that OP mentioned that the parents were largely at fault but doesn’t elaborate. Like I understand that he still has some responsibility for his own actions. I guess I’m just curious as to what it is.

[@definitelyarealperson248]

@@paulastiles8873 probably. But i wish OP actually explained what it meant

[@tictactoe325]

This is Domestic Violence from the man baby to the parents. He used all sorts of narcissistic strategies to maintain power and control. They will never take accountability for their choices and actions.

[@justaperson4656]

They do bear a lot of responsibility, but so do things that they can't control: environment, mental health problems, etc. Judging by the fact the other 3 came out fine, I'm assuming brother has mental health issues (speaking from experience) but also ended up in a toxic echo chamber online

[@cheskydivision]

Op was ok with Zoe not being interested. Even invited her out after the fact. She is not entitled to free drinks. Zoe rejected op but then sabotaged a possible new relationship for op. Did op explain why he did not invite Zoe?

[@YuriKaroki19]

he didn't invite her cuz she doesn't want a relationship with him and he no longer wants to be friends with her cuz of it

[@cetkat]

I'd imagine because it's his workplace and family business. He's not saying she cannot hang out with the group - just not at his bar. So when the group goes there, she's no longer welcome. Which, I understand. Her behavior was vindictive. I wouldn't want her around my workplace either. It would be uncomfortable and could actually become an issue for the business. If someone acts like that after they stop being pursued and given free stuff because they turned him down, what else might they be willing to do in retaliation? I wouldn't want to find out.

[@jaymevosburgh3660]

Yeah, because he was a dickhead and didn't actually want to be friends with Zoe. He just wanted into her pants. He fvck zoned her. He sucks.

[@JRDZ1993]

@@YuriKaroki19 He did still invite her after being rejected, he banned her from the bar after she went around sabotaging him out of spite for him giving someone else attention instead.

[@EphemeraImaging]

@@cetkat Uh, maybe she simply told the new girl that he only gives free drinks with the expectation a transactional relationship, ie., a hookup. From what I see, he was trying to buy her company. If he's so concerned about giving away free drinks maybe he shouldn't be wasting his family's money on his friends. Or trying to buy women with free drinks. Zoe told him honestly she would like him as a friend. Seems like he's the vindictive one.

[@egalitarian2207]

Story 1 note: “Antisocial personality disorder and borderline personality disorder are two distinct conditions, although they do have some overlapping features. It's possible to have both since many people have more than one personality disorder.”

[@shanewoody4232]

It's best to let a psychiatrist to make such diagnosis since social science is a soft science

[@PureVikingPowers]

It's the parents fault ! As parents it's your job to prepare the child for adulthood, coddling them isn't doing them a favor it's abuse.

[@thuslydude]

that shit aint BPD, its Baby Personality Disorder

[@LaterTater8]

You can have both, absolutely. But BPD is kind of seen as feeling too much, all the time (untreated), while ASPD can be seen as lack of empathy and feeling (sociopathy).

[@13thMaiden]

Story 1) I'm constantly worried about being thought of like this by my family. I have Autism, ADHD, and depression, along with high anxiety. Despite having graduating college and having 2 degrees, I have failed horribly at finding any work despite trying hard. (I either flub up interviews, or can't even pass online personality tests all companies seem to have these days, the longest I held a job was barely a year, and I never was given raises like my coworkers because 'I acted too sad'.). I go to therapy, take the medication I've been prescribed, and take care of my parents (literally what I've been doing most of my 20's-30's, either caring for my grandmother or my parents) and keep up their house/cook/do chores. I also volunteer at an animal shelter my friend runs a couple of hours a day. But I'm terrified I'm a burden, and what I will do when my parents die. I'm still trying to get the government to help me, but getting disability is an uphill battle for mental illness, especially when you actually did well in school. Right now I'm waiting on the gov to give me a new password after they locked me out of my account, it's been 5 months since we sent the request. I'm really trying, I promise, I'm just so scared people see me as lazy and useless, or worse, an overgrown child (I guess woman-child is the feminine term??)

[@ZoeAlleyne]

The people who will say that are not worth it. I'm in a similar boat. I'm not autistic but my ADHD and depression has brought me very low. When I was younger I had jobs, I started working when I was 16, hold retail and office jobs until my mental health got LOW. I've started and stopped a few degrees because I just cannot figure out what I want to do. I'm now 34 and feel like I have wasted most of my life. To make matters worse I hurt my back in a bad fall a few years ago and lost a lot of my mobility. I can walk, but only for a few minutes at a time before the pain is too much. The government won't consider me disabled either, well not enough to give me assistance for it. I have disability parking, disability assistance at school but because my condition is not "stable and permanent" (meaning that my back COULD get better, even though it has only gotten worse over 4 years despite spending all my savings on physiotherapy) I am not eligible. I won't even bother applying for mental health disability. Even though I am so depressed and anxious that I sleep 16 hours a day just to avoid being awake have an arm full of self harm scars and a long history of suicidal ideation I know they won't consider me. Which sucks because if I were ON disability the access to services may very well help me improve. In your case maybe you could find a course that might help you get a paid job at an animal shelter? I am focusing my studies on things that can be done remotely and from home as I cannot rely on my medical conditions getting better. It sucks, it all sucks. But you are trying, you aren't a burden. My partner (who regularly has to bathe me in bed) tells me that, yes, loving me has responsibilities that other relationships might not have, but I never act entitled to his love and care, and I try to be as emotionally supportive of him as I can be. It sounds like you care for your family, you do what you can. You are very different to the brother who wanted everything while giving those around him nothing, doing naught but take take take from those around him. That is not you. The fact you even WORRY about being that sets you apart, the OPs brother is not concerned with being a burden or caring for his family. You're not a taker, you're not a loser, you just have a different path than others.

[@dcg590]

Have you tried to get an online job?

[@xxKuroKajixx]

I’ve got adhd, high anxiety, and depression too. I wasn’t able to move out on my own until 25. Not for lack of trying. I wasn’t even able to finish college. Thankfully, I’m in insurance now and I am doing good financially. It’s hard for people like us. We fail a lot. But that’s okay. The biggest difference between us and the man baby, we are trying.

[@capucnechaussonpassion14]

What's an online job outside of mlms i'm sincerely curious

[@MrBizteck]

The simple fact that you are making ANY effort to work on yourself means you are 10x better than this man child. Good luck and keep grinding.

[@owl7072]

Story 3: NTA and it sounds like she's just mad that she's no longer getting special treatment. It makes sense that people want to do nice things for someone they have a romantic interest in, you want that person to notice you and your feelings for them are different so you feel more inclined to put a bit more focus on them. She rejected him and _he accepted it and moved on,_ but along with that comes the fact that she's not gonna get special treatment anymore and _will_ be treated like the other friends in the group because that's what she said they were. Seems like she got an ego boost from it and got pissy when realizing he moved on to someone that wasn't _her_ so she sabotaged it.

[@vanzy01]

👍

[@tifadreamers]

exactly this!

[@theshadowofgod1]

Exactly what I was thinking

[@technicaldifficulties368]

This is possible sure but if he didn't make any other overtures it's also possible she didn't realize she was getting special treatment. I personally think it was an ESH because I certainly didn't approve of her reaction to it either.

[@JorgensZelda]

@@technicaldifficulties368 Maybe he wasn't clear in his intentions, but like, literally everyone else knew he was crushing on her. There's no way someone didn't bring it up to her at least once, even if just in a teasing "Ooooh, I think OP likes you..." kind of way. A lot of times, people just don't address it to keep things from becoming awkward. Once the cat is out of the bag, well, he's going to be in his feelings and piling on by sabotaging his attempts to move on is just a thoroughly dick move. Like, let him cool off, sort out how he feels now that romance is a non-starter, then talk to him and make sure things are cool between you two. I think they both need to grow tf up tho.

[@Dira7411]

Lol at the last story I don’t blame Op at all, if I friend zone a dude I will know that he’s not gonna keep giving me ish… that’s crazy

[@phoenixwaddell6093]

THANK YOU my god I cant believe how many people are saying he baned her because she wouldn't Fuk him when it was because she told to new relationship probability about him asking her out

[@cetkat]

Yeah. She was actually taking advantage of him. She knew he liked her and that's why she always got free drinks. If she was actually his friend, she would have told him she didn't think of him that way. She just wanted the free shit.

[@ineedhoez]

That only makes sense if you know that hes interested in you. If he would have let her know from the jump then ok. Don't spend years pretending to be my friend, then suddenly you can't give me free drinks because we're just friends, even though you give all the friends free drinks.

[@kristlthompson4721]

I live near a botanical garden that runs solely on donations and entrance fees - $8 per person for the whole day. They do have a small chapel available to rent as a venue for weddings, should you choose to do so, but if you bring your own ordained minister/JOP and pay the $8 for their entrance fee, you can get married anywhere on the public access portion of the property. So, yes, it is possible, probably depends on the specific location in regards of fees, access, rules, etc. 🌹

[@yvonnefobbs6232]

Story #1: Please keep a good look out on your parents financial information. It wouldn't be a surprise if your mom gives into his guilt trips and give him money.

[@flowerjpotter1629]

Or if he knows their online banking details.

[@somethingelse4204]

Man that last story was so clear imo. OP was NTA. He responded to that girl in just the fashion he should have - accepted the rejection and kept it moving. He didn't fixate. He didn't try to change her mind. He didn't punish her for rejecting him. She started stirring up shit, like he was supposed to keep feeding her ego with his affections even though she didn't return them. She was TA, full stop.

[@audreym3908]

Agreed. Reddit sometimes has reading comprehension when it comes to this

[@vanzy01]

👍

[@lonlons4668]

I believe everyone is the asshole here. He shouldn't have treated her so nicely only to date her, and she shouldn't have expected free shit.

[@Original_Tenshi_Chan]

Yeah, and looking at the actual post makes zoe an even bigger asshole. She wasn't even a direct friend of OPs, she is a friend of the girlfriend of OP's friend. So she is seven layers removed. The fact that prior to this, he was giving her more free drinks than he gave his actual friends, that he wasn't giving his actual friends free drinks that night, and yet she STILL thought she was entitled to special treatment is gross. She can't even play the "you're just a misogynist!" Card, since her behavior to the other girl could be considered internalized misogyny ("she's not better than me! If I'm not benefiting, neither is she! So let me intentionally hurt her and make her the focus of my anger". The girl did nothing to zoe, but zoe insulted her and made her feel unwelcome)

[@rohandcosta4019]

I agree

[@threeducks157]

I was the violent irrational child (up to 13) my mother tried her very best and got me all the help i needed, but that would had been meaningless if I had put 0 effort into the treatment. Funny enough the remedy for my situation? Freaking martial arts lol, who thought teaching sdvanced fighting styles to an already angry kid would help.

[@spibow]

Martial arts is amazingly therapeutic. It teaches discipline and respect and it appeals to angry kids because of the fighting aspect. My parents put me in Karate when I was little (5years). It was really good and taught me a lot more than I thought it would. I wish I'd been able to stay in but I had to stop taking classes shortly before COVID because of anxiety

[@1911odisea]

If I didn't do martial arts, I'd frankly be way more violent. It sounds pretty corny, but it really helps to tame the beast inside and get the anger out of me.

[@9999plato]

I figure it gave you a place to focus that anger and a figure to discipline you while setting the example.

[@angeliqueSeidlitz2388]

My son is 6...has ADHD and has anger issues, around 6 months ago it got so bad in school with everything, my husband and I put him into karate and he's been so good, also with a routine aswell help out! It's so awesome.

[@threeducks157]

@@spibow yup i went to an amazing studio/gym it was geared towards professional fighters so it was serious business. I learned kung-fu, Judo and boxing, but it wasnt all butt kicking we had daily meditation and discipline drills, honestly it was and it still is amazing.

[@Minris1]

I have a nephew who is exactly like this. He is only 22, but I don’t see him getting himself together anytime soon. My sister is his biggest enabler. It’s so sad and extremely worrying.

[@brandi5126]

S3: She doesn't owe you a romantic relationship and you don't owe her friendship. I think her bringing up her rejection to the new girl wasn't cool. Seems like she was salty you weren giving out freebies and discounts anymore.

[@CristinaFrank]

If he didn't want to be friends at all, he should have made that crystal clear, like she did about only wanting to be friends. OP made it sound like the entire friend group gets freebies at the bar, so he was the one acting butthurt and vengeful not doing the same for Zoey, after her specifying she didn't want anything romantic.

[@corvuscorax7451]

She was salty that OP was only giving her things because he wanted to fuck her. Sucks to find out someone she thought wad a friend was only being so nice because he put her in the fuckzone.

[@kensosaramos]

Yup, women are competitive in that field, Zoe tried to shit on a random girl bc she was butthurt by OP's disinterest... (If I won't have you, no one will / You're just free drinks to me. You choose whichever you consider the most toxic or closest to reality)

[@luciferandassociates9255]

@@CristinaFrank I took it in a different way, OP made it sound like his friends sometimes get freebies at his bar, and during his time crushing on Zoe she would get a bit more. It doesn't sound like anyone was getting freebies this time and Zoe is butthurt because she isn't getting freebies like she is used too.

[@CristinaFrank]

@@luciferandassociates9255 he intentionally left out if the other friends were getting freebies. He said "Yes sometimes I will give free stuff out to my friends. But it isn't all the time. Yes, I used to hookup Zoe a lot. But that was before she said we were friends." So OP admitted that his FRIENDS get free shit, but now that he knows Zoey doesn't want anything more than friendship, she's getting charged full price. I think it would be very weird and "Karen" of Zoey to complain about being charged full price to the friend group, if they were also being charged full price.

[@s.l.r.9407]

8:46 No, sorry. My brother is diagnosed with BPD, I want him gone. He has caused my family unbelievable trauma. Don't get attached to your abuser.

[@ravenID429]

Yeah that guy’s take made my blood boil, the absolute nerve

[@ecos889]

Story 1: Whilst I agree that this dude is a loser. I would also like to say their is nothing wrong living with your parents as an adult, so long as you contribute to the household in some ways. Not everyone are fortunate to afford really well paid jobs and also not everyone is well or can have a stroke of bad luck. Also in my country where my bills are going up to around 5k a year for a normal household it may be essential that people quit their rental contacts to live with parents until those bills if at all go down. With the Ukraine war going on with no site of ending probably will be years of bills going up as well. . . Also in some cultures such as India, living with extended family is the norm and that is equally ok.

[@Splatoon_Kirby]

Yeah and to allude that OP thinks Uber isn't a real job, that is like saying being a Taxi driver isn't a job. Both are jobs and I am honestly surprised the baby actually /did/ that. Maybe with the parents /finally/ uniting with their other children in not enabling this boy he'll finally realize the chances he was /so/ against for so many years where nothing compared to what hes now going to endure. I think this was really mainly OP's parents enabling the behavior. Like the first time he skipped out someone should of been with him making sure he was at least going to his therapist. Even if the sessions where short if its really not going to work a good Therapist will say 'I can't see us making any progress and will terminate our schedule.' It sounds like the brother has something, and the parents just enabled him in a way that it couldn't be medically determined officially and enabled him long past time.

[@itsalwayshalloweenexceptwh5118]

@@Splatoon_Kirby this reminded me of a background storyline in an anime (I'm not sure what the name was). There's this guy in his late twenties or early thirties who is a shut in, lives in his room and does nothing all day except play video games, wank, eat and troll on online forums. He's also an asshole to his parents and blames them for everything. His mom brings him food every day and his parents are just too ashamed or too scared to deal with him so they enable him. He shouts profanity at his mom and treats her badly. Then one day there are no more meals being put in front of his door. I don't remember what happened, either his parents died or they just left. He starts going downstairs to look for food, and then one day when there's no more food in the house he goes outside and asks local shops if he can work there. It was a real turning point for him because he was able to go outside and treat other people with basic politeness because he was hungry and realised he didn't have any other choice than to work.

[@tiffanyhaddox7499]

@@Splatoon_Kirby The thing about the therapist though is without the brother’s input we don’t know what happened that may have made him so determined to not go back. I’ve heard of abusive therapists who convinced their patients that even if they told someone what they did to them, no one would believe them because they (the patient) have something wrong with them and the therapist is a doctor so they (the therapist) would be the one to be believed. That kind of stuff can really mess up a kid’s head and life because they won’t be able to trust for a very very long time afterwards, and that’s IF they are ever able to trust again. There’s too much about his behavior that says trauma for me to say anyone in the family are actually AH’s. Hurt, frustrated, and definitely lashing out but I can’t commit to AH yet.

[@JordanDragonAs]

So 2 things since yall keep using abuse and mental health: first he chose to skip appointments which is a fault of his own yes there are toxic therapist but there are tons of ways to find a good therapist there is no way to confirm abuse without having a appointment actually happen. His behavior doesn't scream abuse it may be bullying or something he internally deals with but it is on him as a grown man to deal with it. Second OP didn't demean Uber they doubt he will get a job or keep doing uber which will lead to him being homeless. Also he was mooching off his parents so how is he contributing to his parents bills or household. I think people need to read a whole story before they comment on thoughts about story.

[@lynngrant533]

It is absolutely OK, as long as the person living with the parents treat them with respect and pays is due. This guy did not deserve to be living with his parents.

[@brigidtheirish]

1: Good lord. So a parental strategy that led three kids to success resulted in a massive man-baby in one? There is something *seriously* wrong with the man-baby. Like on a neurological level. Some sort of personality disorder or autism or maybe a combination. My brother and I are on the spectrum and have violent tendencies along with being easily frustrated. Thankfully, my parents were pretty good at paying attention to individual needs and enforcing discipline, not to mention teaching all of us that *no* job is beneath *anyone.* Kylemas2008 has a good point, too. 2: Wow. OP sounds cheap *and* greedy. My parents had a no-budget wedding by having it *in a church,* Dad wearing his Sunday best, Mom wearing her mom's wedding dress (with adjustments she and Grandpa made themselves), and not having a reception *at all.* No muss, no fuss, only paid for the license and maybe a fee for the priest. Even the wedding rings were hand-me-downs. The only expense for the guests was gas mileage and whatever they were willing to spend on motel rooms for a night. I don't think gift registries were even a *thing* back then. Pre-internet, you know. OP wants to "save money" by making everyone around her spend *more.* 3: So OP asked Zoe out, she friend-zoned him, she got snippy when he didn't give her free or discounted drinks like he *sometimes* does, wrecked his chances with a girl he was talking to, and now is snippy that OP asked her to *not* come back. Yeah, there's something wrong with Zoe. OP could've handled things better, but he *said* he hooked her up with drinks "a lot," not all the time. *She's* the one who took everything personally.

[@Splatoon_Kirby]

I was surprised he got a /job/ like op keeps saying it like Uber isn't a job which they're literally re-branded Taxi drivers it IS a job. A good paying one? Absolutely not but that doesn't make it not a job. At his age with no work experience, this is gonna be about all he can get right off until he makes some changes in himself. The fact he actually did that, and is now going to be on his own, there is a chance hes going to wake up and realize. I don't expect OP will see it soon, but year or two maybe.

[@mylifewithautism3958]

@@Splatoon_Kirby yeah, op has an attitude problem, like it trying to justify all of what their bro did but just listening to them I already hate them because they aren’t even trying to empathize. Like I had a similar situation where I was comparable to him (not as bad though, I didn’t whine for people to make me food and I did hold down a job the hold time), but I had anger issues related to PTSD because of situations others would put me in (eg, pressing me to work far more classes than I was comfortable with in college or sending me to programs where I was treated like a child despite being an adult) and yet those same people, when confronted with the consequences of their actions, just blamed me and had zero empathy, let alone actually trying to help me get better, which would have been really useful because part of why I didn’t improve was because I simply wasn’t aware how to become better. The way I was treated is a large part of why I keep my family at a distance and basically have minimal contact with my sister. I’m a person with issues but not a monster and I don’t need people like my sister and OP who treat me like one, that doesn’t help with anything, least of all making me better off which would benefit everyone

[@carlrood4457]

So it sounds like the canyon is at state/local park of some sort and the $10 is the parking fee. They're probably supposed to get a permit for a wedding, but since the group is so small, can probably get away without being noticed, like having a family picnic there.

[@9999plato]

Nah, Zoe went behind his back and then tried cramping his style for no good reason. Had she minded her own business she would have no issues. I'm certain that Zoe had no problems accepting discounted drinks for all that time until she started paying full price once she decided that she wanted to keep things in the friend zone. What did she expect? Cheap drinks for life even after making it very clear that she was uninterested in him? Once that happens she is no different than any other paying customer in the bar except that he knows her name.

[@anthonygilmour6236]

Yes she did, she is entitled to free drinks for life for "reasons". I am joking but on Reddit they aren't. 🤷

[@Original_Tenshi_Chan]

Agreed, and I kind of feel like it's a No Win situation for OP. 1. He treats her like everyone else: "oh, he's scum, he fuckzoned her!" 2. He continues to give only her the majority of the free drinks: "OP is scum, he thinks if he gives her free drinks, he'll get laid!" Or worse, "OP is scum, he probably thinks is he gives her free drinks, he can get her drunk and take advantage of her". Additionally - If he brings other women to his own bar "OP is just trying to make zoe jealous!" Or "OP already moved on, it's proof he was only looking for sex!" If he doesn't bring his new love interests to his own bar - "How sad, OP is still pining for zoe." Or "OP really needs to move on, it's creepy". Like, no matter what action he took, there were only downsides.

[@vanzy01]

👍

[@GraveyardMaiden]

Like it was only one time he didn't give her free drinks,and the dude says he gives them out to friends every now and then.

[@Tyanna01]

Last story: I don't get all the YTA comments. I really don't. He shot his shot, and was turned down so backed off. Isn't that what how everyone expects men to act? He was trying to woo her with free drinks, she told him they are just friends, so he started treating her like just a friend, not someone he was wooing. He still invited her out and treated her like just a friend right up until she started blocking him from giving another woman attention. That's not friendly behaviour, so he stopped treating her like a friend. She crossed the line, and is now all shocked pikachu that there was a boundary there.

[@ineedhoez]

He should not have been trying to rule her with free drinks. He pretended to be her friend. Then stop giving her free shit because she wanted to be a friend. She thought she was getting free shit the whole time because they were friends.

[@EphemeraImaging]

Maybe she was just warning the other woman that the freebies were transactional. In other words, he expected to hook up because he gave her freebies.

[@sacredruintherapeuticmassa6795]

In America there are several state parks that allow weddings. The $10 canyon fee is basically just a parking fee per vehicle, which you would have to pay even if you are visiting normally. Frankly it's no different than paying for parking at a resort or even in the city near the court house. However when you do reserve a state park for a wedding venue they do make it possible to pay for your guests parking, a ranger stopped by at the end of the day & told us the total. Not a big deal.

[@owl7072]

Right, like I wouldn't be that upset about having to pay $10, especially cause that's _nothing_ compared to some stories I've heard where the bride and/or groom charged each of the guests _$150_ to attend. She's basically complaining about/talking shit about the wedding over what's essentially a parking/entrance fee that you'd be charged pretty much anywhere like that, wedding or not.

[@elaexplorer]

Which is why it sounds shady. It really sounds like they haven't reserved it for a wedding and are basically trying to sneak people in by having them each pay their own fee.

[@technicaldifficulties368]

I want to know the dress code. You want me to hike a mile and then back with a chair? I'm wearing regular clothes.

[@CG-nh7nx]

Story 3: I am not sure what the 2nd commentor is going on about. He didn't ban her as petty venegance. He banned her because she was causing drama to a new girl he had started to talk to. And telling her friends that they can choose another bar is true, no one is forcing them to go to his bar, if they think that he is causing drama.

[@treefittyforall]

Story 3: Zoe sounds like a user. They deem themselves out of someone's league when they shoot their shot, which is fine. What is not fine is when the person that rejects you wants to be in your life to use you and still be seen/treated as special afterwards. She went even beyond that by sabotaging a future relationship OP was trying to see if it could be a relationship. Zoe wants all she can get from him without being in a relationship. She wants to use, take, and give nothing in return except entitlement. She's literally upset he moved on and wasn't willing to be an orbiter. The fact she doesn't want him, but was willing to make sure he stayed single is really weird and should have been seen as a red flag by the friend group.

[@axepagode33626]

Manbaby Story: I expect that every sibling will be swatted at some point in the near future.

[@hilarymurray8741]

Canyon wedding story : NTA OP. You could always reimburse the people who paid to get in, though many will refuse the money. In the UK, wedding venues advertise themselves as being licensed for weddings. I expect it's similar in the US..

[@4BWVan]

Story 2: I am probably just too old and too Southern, but the idea of making people pay fees and bring their own equipment to YOUR wedding just sounds...awful. Like, really bad BAD hospitality. If the fees are only going to be $200 to $250 based on the number of people OP mentions, why not just pay it when you get there for all the guests, etc.? Why not rent some chairs and ask everyone to carry their own, but they don't have to buy one or rent one themselves. It just boggles my mind that this couple can't be bothered to spend less than $500 on their own wedding to make people comfortable and feel like they are invited and not part of the staff.

[@techterror1282]

It's $10

[@MrBizteck]

In Ireland a guest is normally expected to pay about €125 to attend a wedding. ( normally though its an all day affair 4 course meal ) and pay for your own drinks on the day. As my Dad says a wedding invite is like a speeding ticket !

[@owlbyovrprepared1128]

Wedding practices are incredibly regional. I am, however, younger and southern and would be absolutely embarrassed to know this couple was getting married at all. How tacky.

[@britneyragsdale4345]

I'm a middle aged Southern woman and I find this absolutely appalling. We spent around $700 for our small wedding, and it's was beautiful and intimate... And no one had to hike or bring their own chairs. 🥴

[@toothless3835]

she's not even asking them to bring gifts. Yeah, she has a registry for those who want to send gifts, but she's not asking them to. And it's a public space, not a rented space. And she already said she can't pay the park in advance. The bride is usually busy getting ready. Groom too. Where and when do you expect them to pay for the guests all at once? I've been to potluck weddings, buffet style weddings, and ones where the cake was all cupcakes and not a cake. I remember some uppity people complain about it being tacky. But you're not there for the food or what you're served. You're there for the couple. I find it tacky to complain about a wedding that's not yours unless the couple expects you to shell out 150+ dollar on a the wedding or a gift.

[@tangerinebabe1118]

S3: I've been in a very similar situation only I'm a lesbian. My mum owned a pub. I worked Friday and Saturday night and my friends used to come in every Saturday and have a few drink waiting for me to finish work, before we all headed to town. There was this one girl that joined our group and I got a bit of a crush on her. I would give her the occasional free shot and flirt with her, but when I asked her out she said she wasn't interested so I backed off. I would give everyone, including her, a free shot right before we left, but that was it, no more random ones when she came to the bar to get a drink like before. I was still nice to her and treated her just like everyone else, but didn't try and flirt with her at all as I didn't want to make unwanted advances on her. She very quickly started complaining to our group that I wasn't giving her free shot anymore and wasn't paying attention to her like I used to. One of the text she sent to my best friend said something like 'I mean I dont wanna date her but flirting was fun'. I just brushed it off, but a few months later when I started dating someone else, she wasn't happy and tried to cause problems. She would try and flirt with me infront of my GF, talk about how I'd asked her out and she'd rejected me and just really started to make me uncomfortable in the pub. There was more, but it would take forever to write down everything. I could escape her when we were in town, but in the pub I was trapped behind the bar and couldn't get away from her. So, I asked her not to come to the pub anymore and she flipped. Called me bitter and jealous because she'd rejected me. Some of my friends weren't happy with me doing this, but when i showed them the texts she'd sent me, they took my side. Eventually she stopped hanging around with us and I haven't heard from her for years. People calling him the AH have never been in that situation and don't get how uncomfortable and annoying it really can be. He's NTA imo.

[@ineedhoez]

That is why you don't give people free shit when you want to date them. Just say something when you see them immediately. They can decline your romantic interest. You are then free to treat them just like everyone else. There has been no pattern or history of you doing extra for them on account of your attraction to them.

[@mananexus]

Story 3 is exactly why I don’t date within my friend group

[@Original_Tenshi_Chan]

Well, technically she wasn't his friend group. He explained on the post that she is "the friend of a girlfriend of one of his friends". They didn't talk or hang out together outside of when that friend and girlfriend brought her along. So, it wasn't an established friendship prior to any of this.

[@groofromtheup5719]

s2; only 20 guests, yet they expect guests to pay. That is a pile of bad blood for $400 savings. plus the chair thing. plus the hike. plus the expecting people that aren't invited to give gifts. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if it costs them $5k in gifts.

[@wildblue0]

Park weddings can be really nice. Sounds like it's in a state or national park. The guests could make a great weekend out of it if they stop being salty long enough.

[@justlooking1299]

It’s 10 dollars 😂

[@nyxcuseme]

@@justlooking1299 Yeah, I mean, I almost didn't mind the 10 Dollars, but then all the other stuff.. just no. :D

[@groofromtheup5719]

@@justlooking1299 screwed up my math again. It's only $10 the you, and probably most people, but it's also just 1 more thing. If it was just $10, it would only set off a couple people. But this and that and the other thing... it's cumulative.

[@Splatoon_Kirby]

@@groofromtheup5719 Agreed, if the couple was like covering all other wedding expenses from travel, hotel, clothes for the occasion, food and all guests are paying when coming is 10$ + the gift they chose to give the couple. I could see a case made for 'just pay the 10'.

[@jaylynn8630]

Story 3: I can imagine that perhaps Zoe had been told by other friends that they got free drinks there or something (as an offhand comment), and then when she was refused a free drink, thought she had been singled out. Or had OP given anyone else any free drinks that night? It's one thing to expect freebies from your friend's bar, it's another thing if you think that you are the *only one* not being given freebies. Do we know that this isn't the case?

[@ineedhoez]

That's exactly what it seems like. It seems like he is punishing her for wanting to be friends. And she thought she was getting free drinks because they were friends. Which is exactly what said in his statement

[@dimsufferer9951]

If you look through OP’s comments, none of his friends got Freebies that night and she was the only one kicking up a fuss. Not only that but she wasn’t a friend really? Like she was a friend’s girlfriend’s friend.

[@heathermiller5765]

Story 1: I'm surprised he even had a mind to save money at all. It may have been for a graphics card, but it seems most people like him don't think that far ahead

[@bjnboy]

The family in story 1 should still be very careful… look up the cases of Grant Amato, Joel Guy Jr., Chandler Halderson, Jennifer Pan, and Jasmine Richardson. The brother sounds like he could be another one of these in the making.

[@RosesTeaAndASD]

Disturbingly enough, that is always a possibility.

[@Josku2411]

Oop a tad late and i started watching Rings of power and...the cowards didn't give the elven men long hair and i'm irrationally angry

[@promisedmysun6044]

Throw the whole show away

[@Cocollyt]

🧝🏻‍♀️this is terrible news, I’m just about to start it. Someone use AI or something to add beautiful flowing elf hair 😭

[@lovelysakurapetalsyt]

BUT ELF MEN HAVE SUCH BEAUTIFUL LONG HAIR, WHY NOT GIVE THEM LONG BEAUTIFUL HAIR??? :'(

[@Josku2411]

@@lovelysakurapetalsyt Tell me about it it hurts

[@joshguerrero8760]

3. Zoe was trying to lead him on. She goes straight to OP and starts talking to him. Means she is hoping he will keep chasing after her so she can keep using him. She got mad about the Drinks so she made sure to butt in when he was talking with the new girl and ruin his night by letting it slip he asked her out. She had to mention they were good friends until she turned him down. Op never said he would stop being friends with her or they weren't friends anymore so she knew what she was doing. Now she is mad because he responded. If the girls don't like it then his buddies can have a guy's night out and their girls can go somewhere else.

[@jennstewart3003]

Yes, you can just show up and do it. They could just have someone stay at the gate. Bringing your own chair is totally normal for outdoor stuff. Honestly anybody who has a problem with that probably just shouldn't go because they probably won't like being outside anyway.

[@sherylmassie9502]

I was gonna say that state parks typically you can do anything like that without reservation

[@Kimberly_Sparkles]

Might be a parking situation. I know our county parks won't let anyone not in the vehicle pay for the pass, since it's mostly a parking pass.

[@VesnaVK]

The point is, figure out how to pay for your guests. If you can't afford to pay the 10 bucks for all your guests, invite fewer guests.

[@affsteak3530]

@@VesnaVK no reason they couldn't post an "usher" at the gate with a stack of $10s

[@VesnaVK]

@@affsteak3530 exactly. There are any number of things like that they could do.

[@ajsopel]

S3: I personally have fallen afoul of rejecting being friendzoned. She is angry that she won't get all the advantages of you flirting with her, while not having to contribute at all

[@Tammohawk1]

Hello from Far Northern California Mark!! I'm doing better today. Getting over the Vid virus, my first time thankfully. It hasn't been that bad, could have been far far worse. I'm just happy to hear your smiling voice again today. Stay Blessed my dear friend.

[@niyablake]

Well I hope it's Cooler there than my part of Northern California.

[@anotherone1532]

We’re at 108 in my part of northern cali

[@niyablake]

@@anotherone1532 103 here and Monday, 111. Or As I call it god damn no clothes Monday.

[@Tammohawk1]

In the summer, we call this place Hell, CA. The Sacramento river runs through my town, but we are too far north to get any delta breeze in the evening. It sucks.

[@niyablake]

@@Tammohawk1 I'm near CA 160, start of the sac delta. I have my choice of sac or American river To drown it,

[@jessereyna6662]

S3: let’s put this in a different situation. So you are still in a friend group situation. But you start to like a girl in the group just like OP. So as a group you guys go bowling, movies, go-carting, playing pool and drinking when ever you hang out together. During this time you always find a way to pay for her or for something when the group goes out. After a while you start hooking up. One night you drunkenly call her and basically make your feelings know. But on the next day she tells you that she only wants to be friends with you. You get it and so you stop paying for stuff. The next time the group goes out, she notices that you didn’t for her and she lets the group know about the new development, plus that she is angry about it. She also notices that you are talking to the new friend in the group and that you payed for her. So she finds it upon herself that she should warn the new girl that you only pay for stuff when he is interested in you. Now, you tell me who is acting weird here, you or her? Different context, similar situation. To me she is acting crazy. While Op is just moving on, which is perfectly normal. He then asks that zoey not to come along when the group comes to his bar. Why? Because she already tried to ruin things with someone else. He isn’t asking for the group not to hang with her but for her to come back into the bar he works at. Part of it is that he was rejected, I’m sure but most of it is, because he no longer trusts that she won’t keep trying to get even with him by telling other girls info that they don’t need to know. Especially not coming from her.

[@goawayleavemealone2880]

The friendzoning entitled brat, who only had $hitty selfish intentions. She wasn't looking out for that girl, she was just being butt hurt and entitled. And no I'm not an incel, but even as a gay man - I've been friendzoned, girls want their gay best friend... sometimes so much that they'll sabotage his relationships, hell they'll even sabotage casual hookups, so they can get what they want. I'm done buying all the "women good" narratives Female Entitlement is a thing and it's so much worse than Male Entitlement because you're never held to account.

[@Zorixas]

Story 3: There were some key details that determined the verdict. 1) How did he truly see Zoe as? He described their relationship as "casual friends", but he clearly didn't like the reply that she wanted to hang out more but just as friends. 2) How exactly did OP treat Zoe before the friend-zone message vs after the message? The split in the verdict is due to assumptions on how OP treated Zoe before and after the message. Those saying NTA assumed that nothing changed and it was just a night where he couldn't/didn't offer any free drinks. This is the part where my verdict became YTA: "I charged her full price the whole night and she started to complain to the other girls about it which ticked me off. Yes sometimes I will give free stuff to my friends. But it isn't all the time. Yes I used to hookup Zoe a lot. But that was before she said that we were friends." Deception is something that I will be against completely, and the private parts between your legs will not change that. "Yes sometimes I will give free stuff to my friends." "Yes I used to hookup Zoe a lot." A clear comparison that you didn't see Zoe as a friend, while trying to imply that you've always been "friends". Those that want to cast Zoe in a bad light for expecting free stuff failed to noticed that distinct difference; There's a difference between expecting free stuff and expecting the usual treatment from her "casual friend". How often was 'a lot'? If by hooking her up 'a lot' was actually 'every time' before the friend-zone message, then of course she would be upset and raise a stink that he changed how she treated her overnight compared to every other time before that. If it was the usual friendship, then her behavior would be very odd. This is clearly passive aggression with some malicious compliance mixed in. "She sees me as just a friend? Fine! I'll treat her as just a friend from now on. No more special hookups." If the genders were reversed, nothing would change and I would have given the same verdict. YTA and an idiot for thinking that giving someone special treatment would result in getting special treatment in return without any prior agreements. These fake nice guys that pretend to be good friends are the ones that give true nice guys a bad name. Do something nice because you want to, not for the expectation of a silent "equivalent exchange". Everything that happened after that was simply the consequences of OP's actions.

[@tonemaster4608]

It's ops right to give her free/discounted drinks, the fact she expects it every time, shows see was getting a little greedy with the favor. Also, she had no other reason to tell the girl then to keep her away from her friend that benefit's.

[@ineedhoez]

​@@tonemaster4608 His motivations for giving her the free drink are at question. If he gave her free drinks because she was in fact a friend, then nothing changed after she rejected him because she is still a friend.

[@winnkey]

Story 3; she was getting the perks of him trying to impress her. If she wants to stay just friends then she no longer gets those perks. I am a strong believe of friendzone doesn't exist, that its dudes being too afraid of making a move. And this dude does sound a little like that at the start. So he could of made the girl confused thinking they had a genuine friendship, but honestly after she shut down his attempt to pick up I think her position of just want to play with him to get free shit is kinda clear.

[@InvasionAnimation]

Last one NTA. Did she expect free stuff from every guy she sees?

[@tifadreamers]

Story 3. I agree with the last comment. If the genders were reversed, people would have a completely different opinion and would've told the girl to walk away cause the guy's a walking red flags. but this story is different, isn't it? OP took the rejection like a champ. he stepped back immediately and started treating her like his other friends (which was something that SHE asked of him first) and moved on by focusing on finding someone who might actually be interested in being with him. theory: she probably loved getting his attention and getting the freebies that had no doubt to be something that he used to give her while he was trying to make a move on her, but she didn't want anything serious with him and was only going to string him along. she probably wasn't expecting him to move on so soon and to lose his attention, that's why she became so petty and came on to his new date to probably scare her away (so what? so she can be the only one he's paying attention to? err...) and then getting the girls to take her side about losing the freebies and being isolated. again, if the genders were reversed, everyone would say just kick the guy out of the group. but since the red flag was the girl who had made friends with all the girlfriends (who were probably hoping that she and OP would end up together so she could permanently be a part of the group), the opinions turned out differently. to the comment that said she was probably warning the date off. warn her from what? that OP is a gentleman who wasn't going to stalk and be obsessed with someone who rejected him? that OP is a man who knows that no means no? yeah, no. he's right, she's being weird and keeping her in the group would only mess up with his life and friendship

[@vanzy01]

👍

[@OmniscientlyMe]

Yup, her "friendship" was apparently contingent on freebies.

[@Tammohawk1]

Pay $10 to enter the place. Have to hike a mile in while carrying my chair, IF I were invited. If I'm not invited, but a gift anyway? Beyond tacky if you ask me. I wouldn't attend that's for sure.

[@Zminator1986]

Story 1: I would like to know if there is an update on the man-saga. Edit to add: What the is wrong with these parents failing their children and raising babies? Did the parents of this story intend to raise their adult in diapers for the rest of their miserable lives? Story 2: Did OP and her (probably now) husband expected all the guests to hike a mile in formal attire? Let's forget kids, elderly, and disabled, but we're the guests going to show up in hiking gear and charge at the destination or formal including the shoes? How the hell are the women expected to hike in dresses?

[@erickaennis2738]

Not everything is due to childhood trauma or mental illness. Some people are just lazy, entitled and spoiled. I think people use this too much. That and narcissistic disorder. It's time for him to grow up.

[@peteranon8455]

Story 3. NTA. You don't owe a girl who rejected you free drinks. Also, Ladies, guys don't get you drinks because they want to be friends.

[@elaexplorer]

LoL

[@ZoeAlleyne]

I've had guys get me drinks with no strings attached. Literally had an encounter at a bar where they didn't have what I wanted and a guy waiting suggested a drink and I agreed and went with it, he paid for my drink which was super nice and then just went back to his friends. He meant it only as a nice gesture and probably because if I didn't like his suggestion I wouldn't have wasted any money. Had guy friends pay for a few of my drinks and I have sometimes paid for theirs depending on who was flush at the time. Zero sexual tension or interest in any of those friendships. Sometimes guys do things not motivated by sex or romance, but just by friendship or generosity or kindness.

[@peteranon8455]

@@ZoeAlleyne Oh yes, you keep telling yourself that you would get the same treatment if you were a smelly homeless man.

[@whims6278]

Ladies, not all men are AHs and expect sex when you hang out and get drinks 💀 avoid men like Peter, ladies- there's plenty of good guys out there who aren't weird entitled psychos. Pay for yourselves and let the creeps go cry in a corner about being incels

[@whims6278]

@@ZoeAlleyne amen girl 🙌👏

[@reallyisay]

When Zoe didn't get free drinks so she went petty talking to smack to random girl..OP I'm betting Zoe was loving the attention and when she saw you showing it to Random Girl she got Jealous... typical

[@ToeBeanCozy]

Story 3: NTA. You stopped pursuing her when she said no and now she's mad about it? Dodged a bullet there.

[@ineedhoez]

The issue is that he should have been honest about his pursuit of her. He wasn't. He pretended to be her friendAnd gave her free shit so she would like him.

[@dimsufferer9951]

@@ineedhoezwhich plenty of people do? She doesn’t owe him a relationship but he doesn’t owe her friendship after being rejected

[@kristintassos2741]

1st story sounds just like my uncle was... but he never changed anything until my grandfather, his father passed away SMH

[@judithhansford4629]

While the parents have a part ( large part) of the child's life direction the blame is on the adult. He needed a very loud wake up call and hopefully will stay awake and move forward.

[@theseawriter]

Not a good day for me… I got sick suddenly (sore throat & runny nose yesterday, nausea and lightheadedness as well today), and have been dragging myself through school. Everything gives me a headache. However, I have my first football game I play at today! I’m in the marching band, play flute. It’s been my light at the end of the tunnel.

[@kassysampson8893]

I actually got married at the Grand Canyon. It was a mini fee to rent the “area”. It’s still open to the public but your allowed to do it. There is a local couple that does wedding all winter there. All fee it was less than $1500 including pictures and my bouquet.

[@jameslyons6655]

The wedding. Twenty guests at 10 bucks a head is $200. If you can’t scrape that up for a wedding maybe you’re not at a point financially where you should be getting married, or at least trying to hold a function. 23 years old? What’s the rush?

[@angelahoffman119]

My niece had a sunset wedding at Paladora Canyon. It. Was. Beautiful.

[@LivBee.]

S3: i had to consider this one pretty hard but honestly I don’t think OP is TA. As a woman I’m pretty aware of when dudes think they’re entitled to sex or a relationship on account of some free drinks or whatever, but OP let it go w what sounds like no harsh feelings when she turned him down. It also sounds like he doesn’t always give free drinks out to his friends, but Zoe felt entitled to them bc she was used to it when OP was crushing on her. Whether that’s just naïveté on her part or because she thought he did that w everyone idk. Her introducing herself to the date and explaining to her wasn’t her warning the other girl. It was her scaring her off and punishing OP for moving on so quickly and not giving her special attention anymore. In my mind, OP was giving free drinks and being friendly in an attempt to flirt which is fine, but since he didn’t get pissed or vindictive UNTIL Zoe took it a step further, I don’t think he’s TA or “fuckzoning” Zoe like one commenter said lol. He just stopped pursuing Zoe and that includes any freebies thrown her way. Zoe’s pissed she can’t have her cake and eat it too. Should he have banned her from the bar though? No, but he does need to talk to her one-on-one and resolve this like adults though. Make it clear how his freebies work and that the ones he gave her was to show his interest. You’re telling me Zoe had NO IDEA why she was getting free drinks and friendliness from OP when everybody else didn’t ??

[@OmniscientlyMe]

3. Sounds like Zoe doesn't understand that friend, especially the peripheral friend that she was, is a downgrade from romantic interest and somehow she felt she was entitled to keep the perks of the latter after requesting the status change. And since she didn't try to have an adult/friend conversation to smooth things over and just went straight to sabotaging OP relationships, I'm gonna lean NTA.

[@chs75]

Fr

[@ineedhoez]

Zoe didn't know that she was in the romantic interest group in the 1st place. That is what all of you men seem to forget in these comments. She didn't know that she was getting free shit because she was a romantic interest. He thought she was getting it because they were friends.

[@OmniscientlyMe]

@@ineedhoez Read the last sentence of my post, you clearly missed it, sexist.

[@jennilynne1977]

Done at work and saw notification for Mark! Can my day be any better? I hope everyone is having a great day/evening/night! Peace, hugs and love everyone!

[@matthewfaust8764]

Story 2: if you asked them $100 a person? Huge a-hole. $10 a person? ....how broke are your family members?

[@9999plato]

Buy them a Staub Dutch Oven rather than La Crucet. The Staub's black interior will not stain. I hear that La Crucet is now copying Staub's black interior coating but why own the copycat item? These Dutch ovens are very pricey but will last a lifetime with a little care. I've had a huge12 quart Staub dutch over for 12 years now and it's going strong so I bought a small 4 quart Staub dutch oven to match it. Good luck with the wedding.

[@sablemoreno5095]

Last story: People have said it, but girl was mad she still didn't get the "I'm interested in you treatment" when OP took the rejection like 99% of women wish the most persistent guys would. She's also pissed that he didn't sulk and just moved on after the rejection, hence the sabotage. She just wanted the free things minus the strings attached. Also, as a woman, no Op is NTA and all those others saying he is make me question what they expect from friendships (I mean, I used to get my friends things but that was because I went MONTHS without seeing them and the things were small stuff as we usually hung out at the mall)

[@MrAbomb234]

Idk man. I can very easily see her perspective. Should she have sabatoged him? No. Should she expect drinks? Honestly no but it's OP's fault for setting that precedent. He was feeding her drinks because he had a crush on her and stopped treating her like the rest of the group once she rejected him. Did he ever tell her that's why he was giving her so many free drinks? Doesn't seem like it. All of that is ignoring the fact he drunkenly hit her up at booty call o clock asking her to hang out. From her perspective he was nice and sweet to her maybe because he thinks shes special, he didn't get sex from her, then started acting cold and tried to isoalte her. Are you really telling me as a woman you don't understand why she would be mad? I'm a man and I know that much. She handled it poorly but OP is a douchebag.

[@alexandermccalla5098]

I’m loving the idea of a priest being charged at the base of a canyon.

[@jacksparrowismydaddy]

this needs to be a cautionary tale to parents that baby their kids past 11....

[@andreahl3494]

S3: I disagree with most "you're the AH" comments. She just sounded petty with her saying to the new girl that OP used to hit on her. Also, it felt like she expected OP to still treat her special even after rejecting his feelings. OP doesn't owe her anything, aside from treating her as she wants, as a FRIEND. In fact, she should be happy because he has stopped giving her the "unwanted" attention. If she wants to be in the group activities, have a talk with her and the friends and say that you really were 100% true with what you felt then. But after she rejected you, you respected her decision and is now moving on. So can she please treat you as a friend and respect it when you don't treat her special anymore and is giving your new attention to someone who does reciprocate?

[@ineedhoez]

It doesn't say that he gave her any special treatment. From her perspective, she thought they were friends and that's why she was getting special treatment. Suddenly, she wants to continue to be friends, and she's not getting any special treatment. She thought she was getting the friends and family discount. Turns out, she was getting the romantic interest discount.

[@nikkiwooden7876]

I have a feeling that the reason OP "can't" pay her guests entrance fee is because the park probably requires a deposit and a permit for events, and she's trying to get around paying for it. I know most state parks allow parties to happen on a first come, first serve basis, but I imagine with a mile long hike leading to a canyon, there's some paperwork involved.

[@elaexplorer]

Story 2: You can 100% pay in advance at state/federal parks. You can also put in reservations. And the fact that don't know that makes it feel like they're doing something shady. Like that park area isn't available for events and they're trying to bypass the restrictions on group size by having everyone pay individually and bring their own chairs. How embarrassing is it going to be to have the park rangers come through and kick everyone out in the middle of the ceremony.

[@AllistorMichelle]

story 3: nta he was drunk when he made a move but he did the right thing and left her alone after she said no. he's in his right to give free drinks to his friends. he no longer talks to zoey unless it's at his bar. she is no longer seen as a friend. why should she get free drinks? plus she ruined a possible relationship for him. all zoey wanted was the free drinks not an actual friendship with op.

[@ineedhoez]

Zoe thought they were friends. She told him she just wanted to stay friends. Why would the free drinks stop if they are friends? Nothing should have changed.

[@missmax2492]

​@@ineedhoezhe wasn't giving ANY other friends free drinks that day. She's not getting special treatment. You're advocating for her to be treated differently from everyone else. It's a sometimes thing for everyone else and an everytime thing for her until he started treating her like one of his friends. She's not even close to him, he normally only comps real friends, not people who are periphery in the friend group

[@meOW0131]

Last story: OP is not the AH. Zoey is acting like high schooler, mad the boy is now asking someone else out. OP is just a man taking the hit and then moving on. He dodged a bullet.

[@MariMotherofGoblins]

I don't think they bar guy is an asshole. He was extra sweet (paid for her/got her discounts), took a shot, missed, and backed off. She HAD to have realized after he admitted he liked her that he had obviously been super sweet because of that, and should have assumed after she shot him down that she probably wouldn't get the "I like you" treatment any more. Then she got in the way of his date, because she was mad? Mad that he wouldn't give her princess treatment anymore? And all of this was after he was very much the bigger person, still inviting her out and treating her like a standard friend in the friend group after being rejected. He's acting like an adult and she's acting like a child.

[@wildblue0]

Story 2: I used to work at a State Park (NY) where weddings were held. If they reserve a pavilion for their wedding reception, the park entrance fee will be calculated in the cost of the pavilion. Most couples would have the ceremony at the pavilion, but once in the park they could just go where they like. Want to hike 2 miles to the waterfall? No problem. They just have to deal with random tourists wandering through. Sounds like they aren't coordinating with the park though.

[@Itzelhaim]

I've been waiting for this story to pop up I'm so happy

[@roelthas]

The last one is obviously NTA, there was never a friendship and once OP's intentions were shut down, he stopped the special treatment, that's it, but then she got salty about it and got herself banned from OP's bar.

[@a.munroe]

Hahahah. I come back to this one and my favorite line is STILL: "me, all my human siblings and my parents..."

[@nyxnight638]

Yay. I get to listen to you while fishing!!!!! Have a good day mark and take care of yourself !

[@bettybell63]

What the heck would you wear to hike a mile to attend a wedding?

[@kp2223]

This one caught me too you're going to a wedding but you have to walk a mile carrying a lawn chair .what is the dress code for such a thing?

[@Kimberly_Sparkles]

Story 2: My metroparks' entrance fee covers parking so each individual car has to buy a sticker. It's in the lawbooks. That said, for a few dollars more you can get a season pass. I'd do that and take the $10 off the cost I budget for a gift. I think sometimes people get so stuffy about weddings they insist we all marry at the same Baptist church with the same kind of reception hall.

[@sniperwolf7]

Story 3, NTA. Its called Attention Validation. She wanted him to stay in the background pining for her. If you think she didn't know before he got drunk then I have a bridge to sell you. But then he stopped giving her attention and how dare he for that!? That is what this story was about. He moved on and she didn't like it.

[@socialmoon]

BPD is NOT an antisocial personality disorder. The two are different disorders, albeit in the same cluster. Having BPD does not mean that one lacks empathy (like those with antisocial PD do).

[@atinyevil1383]

Story 1: I'm less than 2 minutes in and this reminds me of my uncle.

[@YoYo-gt5iq]

My upvote made it go from 3.2k to 3.3k. It's nice to make a real difference in this world.

[@Cnichal]

It’s $10. Less then the cost of a meal at a sit in dining area. It’s sounds like it will be a blast!

[@brianbarber5401]

Story 1: the McDonald’s job - “I’m too good for that” No, no you’re not.

[@civivva4501]

I thought the manbaby would either trash the house or sell the tv etc.

[@alexushollerbach158]

Story 3 the fact so many people glossed over the fact that she introduced her self and told the girl he’s hitting on that she rejected him was on purpose

[@ineedhoez]

That doesn't change the initial issue. She's an asshole for doing that but he was the bigger asshole for pretending to be her friend, giving her free shit because she was a friend, then Deciding to decline to give her free shit because she wants to be a friend, even though he still gives a friends free shit.

[@renee0_0]

With the last one everyone sucks. Him for expecting more than friends and her for expecting free drinks.

[@kessiawright1710]

First video: He should have been made to take responsibility when he was a kid. Some parents do raise their kids right and most of their children will become normal humans, even if they were brats growing up. They eventually mature. In some families, there is one child who can kind of break the parents. They get worn down by the constant need to correct behaviours. I am the only one my siblings who never got into trouble as a child or teen. However, two of my siblings matured and are hard working people. I am the oldest and also the shortest. I have one brother that probably had extreme ADD was always in trouble. He weighed more than me when I was five and he was one. I was about the size of a three year.old. I was sickly and weak and he was able to knock me down. He did and even at that age would sit on me and smack me around. He also liked to start fires in the house and outside. He didn't stop until he set a field on fire and a fire fighter put the fear of God in him when he was 10. As we got older, I started defending myself. He had anger issues from the time he was little. He could go off in seconds just by saying hi to him. He generally only was like that with me and wasn't like that at school. He did smoked and did drugs from a young age. I know he was abused, when he got older, but he always had.anger issues from the time he was a baby. He was 10 the first time he OD. He was in a coma for a few days and for a few more days he was unusually nice. He was like he was spaced out. Anyway when we were teens, I was in high school and he was in Junior high and he started taking his uncontrolled anger out on our mother. One day, I heard him yelling at her and then my mom started yelling because he wouldn't listen and she had told him no about something. Since I knew what he was like when he got that way with me, I went to the door to watch in case my brother got violent. When he got into her personal space, I knew what was coming. I am 5 feet and she is about 4"10, so we are short and he was taller than us. As he swung his hand at her face, I ran over and knocked him over. He didn't expect it so he was not braced for it. I was so mad that it gave me some adrenalin and strength that I didn't normally have. He tried crawling away as I smacked him a few times and yelled at him that he will not hit our mother over and over. I didn't hit him hard enough to leave bruises, but he felt humiliated. He was angry over that for years, but he never hit us again. He learned to control his anger better. I wasn't an adult when that happened and it isn't something that I suggest, but I never accepted any domestic violence again. My little sister and I talked about never being with anyone like that. I have never had a partner like that. When my sister was a teen a boyfriend started yelling at her, got into her personal space, then pushed her hard. She laid him out and dumped him. She said they eventually became friends and he said that punch embarrassed him and made him realize he had anger issues. That punch apparently made him a better man lol. You cannot stay in a DV relationship, even if it is your kid. Get them help. If your kid hits you, call the police. Don't just accept it passively. You are not helping them by doing nothing. My brother is still drinking and doing drugs.

[@KatieB33]

My sister got married in the historic Fremantle jail and everyone had to pay the entrance fee as we went in. No biggie.

[@chs75]

It was still tacky.

[@KatieB33]

@@chs75 I wouldn’t have done it, but each their own.

[@lilliodhe5enraptured]

Story Two: National parks are considered "public land" and you can get married in any of them - Yellowstone and the Grand Canyon are some of the most popular. (I'm not saying it's smart, but you can, with the possible exception of the Everglades. Please tell me if I'm wrong.) Those two I mentioned do have entrance fees because they have many employees.

[@nadine8078]

Story 2: My husband and I were married by a justice of the peace on her lunch break. She suggested we go the Botanical Center (this was in January in the Midwest so it was a lovely tropical wedding in the middle of winter). She did marriages there all the time. We paid the admission for our parents and maid of honor. Bil and an uncle showed up who paid for themselves. It was a very small wedding, some visitors stopped to watch, it was fine (not sure if they were watching us or my MIL dressed in all black and crying so loud it was hard to hear the vows, but that’s a story for JNMIL). We’ve been married for 23 yrs.. best $50 ever.

[@jas1007]

Okay, I'm curious how story two ranks with other bad wedding ideas from reddit. The noiminees are: 1. The Puppet Wedding, where in leau of gifts guests buy a custom high-quality puppet, and the puppets interact with each other. 2. The Lights Out Wedding, held in near total darkness to honor OP's blind parents. 3. Renfaire Wedding (where stepfather faked a heart attack to get out of baking the cake) 4. The wedding where food was not provided except for the bride and groom and now 5. Canyon Wedding, $10 entry fee, bring your own chair, and hike it in for a mile

[@amberleeannalee1999]

That ten dollars goes back to the national parks and THAT is a good thing. OP not an arse hole.

[@faeangel7649]

God that last comment in the last post had it right, if OP had been a female and Zoey had been a male people wouldn't be calling him TA He didn't ban her until she started causing drama. He backed off when she said she wasn't interested, but she clearly wanted him to stay interested in her. She literally had no reason to introduce herself to the new girl and on top of that bring up his crush on her, and it just reeked of jealousy and pettynees. Gaurentee she only did it because she was upset she was no longer the one getting free things from him, and her acting like she was entitled to continue getting them is stupid.

[@Dira7411]

She thought Op was a simp, I think that’s the word, she thought he was gonna be like a sick puppy running behind her and she f-Ed around and found out 😂😅🤣

[@CensorshipVictim]

@@Dira7411 just the entitlement alone was disgusting. It's why guys nowadays gravitate to podcasts of Andrew Tate and other like minded men, because they're sick and tired of ungrateful, entitled, spoiled princesses.

[@Dira7411]

@@CensorshipVictim I keep hearing about this Andrew Tate character now I’m curious…

[@faeangel7649]

@@Dira7411 She probably had the idea that she was just such a catch he'd be okay as long as he could be around her and make her happy 🙄

[@Dira7411]

@@faeangel7649 she silly af for thinking that lol

[@Chantal_P-v4x]

Story 2 - My vote is still NTA... but after hearing other people's answers I'm reconsidering. I know next to NOTHING about weddings. Oddly never been to one. And I'm not married myself. Personally, though I don't see what the big deal is about paying to attend. It's only 10 dollars - less than one might pay to attend many other things, such as a trip to a museum or a movie theatre. And bring a chair? Well... they need somewhere to sit so that kinda makes sense to me too. It works at festivals! This wedding sounds simple and low-key. Nothing wrong with that. My concern is the registry issue. I know as little about this kind of etiquette as I do about other wedding customs. But if others are saying tacky, then sure, it likely is. Pull down the social media registry and it seems all good.

[@terramarini6880]

Yeah, up to the registry part I was good with it all but even if you are invited, you are not actually obligated to bring a gift though it has become customary.

[@elaexplorer]

It's like inviting someone to a particularly boring party that they have to go out of their way for, often have to buy new clothes for, have to take off work to attend and then charging them money to do it.

[@ondank]

The big thing for me in the 2nd story is that its a really small wedding anyway. They say they don't want it to be expensive, but they are only inviting 20 people. So they are too stingy for 200 dollars more?

[@candypettynettie487]

So all man baby needed was to be put in a position where he had to grow up. I know people like this. It's a shame.

[@NotAFanOfHandles]

Story 1: Honestly, depending on the area he lives in, he could make a pretty good living doing uber or doordash or any of those, even factoring in the expenses of gas, insurance, registration, etc. Back in 2019, I knew a guy who made $70,000 a year - net - from DoorDash and a lady who easily made $100 from uber for like two hours of work then did doordash on the side, and we live in an area which doesn't tend to pay too well for those services. This might be just the sort of work that is best suited to him. Story 2: My sis got married on a random beach. You can get married just about anywhere, so long as you are allowed there. Story 3: NTA What even is this? She friendzoned him first and honestly the "let's hang out more" when put in the context of him sometimes _but not always_ hooking her up with free drinks really suggests she just wanted to get liquored up on his dime... but she acted like a jealous ex by trying to cockblock the poor dude when he, naturally, tried to move on with a new girl? Dude, Zoe is a jerk and your "friends" are also jerks for siding with her.

[@juliannepierson934]

On wedding in the canyon, I have been to many gatherings/party’s where there is an entrance fee. Had to pay way more than $10 for parking at a wedding. If the canyon is a state or Federal park the fee is per car not person - car pool and save. If the $10 is an issue, decline the invite.