Mark O'Connor Stumps A Room Full Of Scientists About The Perfection Of The Violin

[@ritzy12345]

Definitely Mark O’Connor....always promoting his method books!

[@MarsFKA]

1:54 A little off-topic here, but seeing that he asks what else has not been improved a upon, when my wife and I were in Alaska three years ago, one of our tour guides told us that modern science has been unable to improve the Eskimo kayak - it is perfect.

[@paulking3053]

I do not know much about how the violin came about or how it has been inproved. I do know that Mark O'Connor is definitely a great player. He is one of those guys I can sit and listen to for hours. What a talented man and what he can get out of 4 strings is unbelieveable.

[@sireugenecourtney5797]

Kimber Ludiker can get a lot out of a 5 string fiddle as she performs in the Bluegrass group *Della Mae* (Deep mellow low notes of a viola)

[@douglastuck3736]

Hmm, I have 3 fiddles, and only one of them is "Traditional" and that has been improved on from the one they played 400 years ago. They've been progressively improved with deeper sections, so you can get a steeper string angle over the bridge for more volume. My second fiddle is an Epoch electro-acoustic 5-string. It uses a metal strut to take the load from the strings, so the body is not under compression, and can resonate better. The final fiddle is a fully electric five-string. So, yes, fiddles have improved over the years, but if you want a fiddle that sounds just like a 400 year old fiddle, then a fiddle that's built just like a 400 year old fiddle is the peak of innovation.

[@richardmessina9475]

Thank you for playing, Mr. O'Connor......and for your instructional books! (55 years ago, I was a student of Boris Schwartz)

[@slimjimmypage]

I think you'd find that this is largely true of all acoustic instruments. After the design was mastered and playable and pleasurable instruments were available, the design has mostly stagnated because if it doesn't, it becomes something else, or at least stops being a traditional violin or dulcimer or what have you.

[@alexhage8092]

I once saw a video of Tony Rice and Mark was in the background playing mandolin. Mark later came back with an amazing career as one of the best fiddlers I’ve ever had the pleasure of listening too.

[@reid2hai]

I don't know if this was mentioned, but the chinrest was invented by German composer/violinist Louis Spohr in the early 19th century.

[@welcomewestband]

the design of a violin has not been improved upon for the same reason stratocastors have not been improved upon as far as fundamental design is concerned. We like the way it sounds so we don't change it.

[@1Passingthrew1]

It ain't what you got, it's the way how you play it, And that's what gets results.

[@TheJagjr4450]

OVER 30 years ago.... I took violin from 3rd grade to 5th grade then private lessons for 2 more years, playing soccer the entire time as well. I ended up giving up violin for drawing and painting PLUS moving up to traveling soccer league and half pipe skateboarding... Violin gave me a great appreciation for strings sections and their robust sound, I had never thought much about the amount of exceptionally composed music I played over the course of 5 years, it inevitably contributes to the music I prefer... The intricate fingering work helped my ability to draw and articulate with my left hand.

[@ori6inal-gam3r17]

I was waiting for the stumping, must of missed it.

[@hankymcspanky1113]

I’m so sorry for this: It’s must have or must’ve, “must of” is incorrect.

[@hellslash1341]

@@hankymcspanky1113 big fucking hero

[@markoconnor]

Fine tuners on a tailpiece of a violin is not an improvement because they are not necessary. I performed for 15 years on a violin with Yo-Yo Ma and others without finetuners on the tail piece, and it was just fine. Glue improvements used these days is not an improvement of the violin itself. An electronic violin is most definitely not an improvement of a violin, it is rather a different instrument. I use a pick up sometimes on stage for the acoustic violin, but that has nothing to do with the violin design itself. The P.A., stage monitors, amps or any other auxiliary item is not an improvement on a violin design, nor sound. I rarely us a pick up these days and try to play acoustic whenever I can because it is so much better. I have always recorded acoustic for my albums. A 5-string over a 4-string violin is not an improvement, if anything the flexibility of a 5th string that might bring in register, results in a major sound and tone loss compared to the 4-string. There used to be 5, 6 and 7-string instruments in the baroque period anyway which proves it is not a new creation). The only alteration of the violin in 400 years really has been the neck and fingerboard length as well as the angle of the neck and how it was fastened to the body perhaps and we are only speaking a fraction of an inch longer and a slight tilt to it. But nevertheless, it is still a violin neck and part of the contraption that I described on stage at PopTech, individual parts working together to make a whole. Nearly no improvement has been done to the 400 year-old Amati modern violin (some maybe confused with the "baroque" violin in these responses and those are different than the Amati which was the first modern violin) by comparison to any other "contraption." This is what stumped the scientists here, term used lovingly of course as the room was full of brilliant people and they enjoyed my presentation. They however could not give a comparative example to the violin's perfection 400 years ago. The question was not about how much they knew about the violin... they could not think of another contraption that had not been improved upon in 400 years to the very small degree that the violin has. Interesting... and that is why there is a YouTubve making this point!

[@jakemode]

my cello has no fine tuners what so ever

[@cw8692]

+Mark O'Connor Added fine tuners to the GDA strings of my fiddle. The E had one. They are not necessary. They are a convenience. Hearing you play live and up close is one of my goals. Wish you would play Denver.

[@JoshuaBamberg]

I personally don't consider the chin rest an improvement, but the chin rest was only added less than 200 years ago

[@reid2hai]

Then why does every violinist use one?

[@jakemode]

reid2hai well most violists find it to be more comfortable than just having the bare violin. Some prefer not to use it. It's all personal choice really.

[@BenDover-hw4xt]

Didn't see a single stumped scientists. Come on man, you're better than that!

[@sillysherman]

There were alterations made to the violin family from the Baroque to modern instruments mainly to accommodate the higher string tension and other demands for performing in large music halls. Changes include wire and wrapped strings, taller bridge, angled neck, and major bows changes. More recently there are alternate shapes (especially in violas), mechanical pegs, and carbon fiber instruments and bows, pickups and electric instruments. That said the modern concert violin is largely unchanged.

[@groovellous1]

Violins have been improved in the past 400 years. All Strads currently in use were modernized with longer fingerboards set at a different angle. And the chinrest was invented relatively recently. Pity this event didn't pick someone who knew their stuff.

[@Melissa0774]

I wish somebody would write a symphony that incorporates having the orchestra use their violins to make animal and vehicle noises. There's a video here on You Tube, of a kid doing that and it's absolutely amazing. He can make all kinds of different animal noises, a motor cycle, police sirens, and all kinds of other stuff and it sounds completely realistic.

[@neddyladdy]

yeah, fuck that playing music caper, its a waste of good instruments

[@RBlatch4d]

@@neddyladdy hahaha, smarty pants

[@pappyfiddle]

The scroll does what exactly? The pegs don't really work, very difficult to tune with; most violins have additional fine tuning screws on the tailpiece. Quite a few fiddlers play the instrument down low on their chest, don't need any chinrest. The little sharp points on the corners of the bouts ought to be sawn off, their only function is to hang the hairs of the bow.

[@pappyfiddle]

He didn't exactly stump any scientists. Several of them offered ideas, but such an offbeat question requires some thought. Besides what's been mentioned here, there are materials improvements; also, the fact that music education is fettered by a lot of pedantry, and the upper reaches of performance perfection are funded by blindered and calcified institutionalists, discourages any masters from venturing to develop an improved violin. And, perfection is largely defined by what we're used to.

[@ARR0WMANC3R]

Here's one: Plate armor. Plate armor reached a height in complexity and protection around the 1500s and was in use in the first world war approximately 400 years later. It never fully disappeared from the battlefield either, cavalry wore cuirasses and helmets through the Napoleonic wars. And although different types can and have been made, the plate armor fabricated in the 1500s is still the best available in function and ornateness, even by the standards of modern smiths who make it. And it is a complex system of parts fabricated to achieve a specific task.

[@leonardfender2472]

They should have answered: MANDOLIN

[@Muireachgaming8957]

Trumpet/trombone?

[@sighthoundman]

+ Tawelwch Gaming Trumpet did not achieve it's current form until around 1900. Valves were available circa 1870 (I'd have to do some research to determine exactly when) but European orchestras actively resisted valved instruments (both trumpets and horns) until the early 1900s. Horns were played (according to the accounts I've read) by valveless horns, similar to hunting horns. There were huge gaps (because of the overtone series) and so each player would have several horns and could play the notes in each horn's overtone series, but of course not at the same time. I imagine this made composing a nightmare. Trumpets, on the other hand, were immensely long (about trombone length) but played with trumpet mouthpieces, so that the players could play all the notes. My son's trumpet teacher tried this and he found it immensely hard. I tried something that is essentially the same thing, because when I started playing tuba (I had already played trombone and euphonium for years) and found that the upper registers were really easy, especially if I used a small mouthpiece. If you're up high enough in the overtone series, you not only get alternate fingerings, eventually fingerings become irrelevant. (Or everything is open.) Trombone or sackbut was invented about the time the Italians learned to bend copper (and then brass) tubing, sometime in the early 1500s. It's essentially unchanged for 500 years. And of course, that staple of engineering, the arch, is unchanged in over 2000 years.

[@ef-fj8th]

sighthoundman arches are at least 9k years old

[@TD402dd]

What exactly did he do to stump anyone except talk about violins?

[@bacchantmedusae]

How about L. Shankar's 10 string double neck violin?

[@chewie481]

the violin wasn't simply "invented". There wasn't some guy 400 years ago who said "how about we make an instrument with strings and a wooden resonance body and then you have a bow, with which you make the strings vibrate, and then there's a bridge upon which the strings reside which transfers the vibrations to the wood", and then the instrument we know today as the violin was born, and it has never changed since. That would be pretty remarkable. But that's not what happened. The design of this instrument is a result of literally hundreds of years of experimentation by builders, trying out stuff, noting that it sounds worse than before, trying something different, failing, trying again, eventually getting something better than what they had before, setting that as the new base, and start trying out stuff again.¹ Evolution in design. If you repeat that over and over and over, and the environment or the "goals" (like what we consider to be a high-quality, pleasant sound) don't really change, sooner or later, you're gonna end up with a thing that cannot really be improved anymore without making it something fundamentally different.² With the violin, this happened 400 years ago. That's why it hasn't changed. Saying it's astounding that the violin hasn't really changed in 400 years is like saying that it's astounding that fish fins haven't really changed a lot in the, I don't know, 300 Million years that have passed since evolution came up with the shape that's best for a fish fin. (Except that they may actually have changed, but that's because, in that case, the environment also has changed, and the goal, which has always been the same (survival), requires a different design today than it did 50 Million years ago). Sure, you can be excited about that fact, nothing wrong with that, and I share quite a bit of that excitement, but for me it's also very, if not more, exciting that this development has actually happened. It really is just evolution, here's an article that describes it: www.economist.com/news/science-and-technology/21642754-artefacts-well-organisms-can-evolve-natural-selection-making-sweet?fsrc=scn/tw/te/pe/ed/makingsweetmusic Tbh, if you want to stand in front of an educated audience, as a person who's played this instruments for decades and probably makes their income with it, I really would have expected you to know a bit about its history and bring up this point. It's kinda crucial. Maybe should have done that in the time where you decided to shill your book to an audience that probably doesn't care a lot whether it uses American or mexican tunes. Let's also quote linus torvalds: "'Im deadly serious: we humans have never been able to replicate something more complicated than what we ourselves are, yet natural selection did it without even thinking. Don't underestimate the power of survival of the fittest. And don't ever make the mistake that you can design something better than what you get from ruthless massively parallel trial-and-error with a feedback cycle. That's giving your intelligence much too much credit." ¹ actually according to the article I linked, there were parts of the design where that did not happen, namely the shape of the f-holes. It _did_ develop after evolutionary principles, but the article argues that the individual small changes (which are essential for evolution) were not done intentionally, but rather are a product of the different ways violin producers just happen to do things. One happens to make the holes a big bigger, maybe he's a bit clumsy, so he regularly chips a bit to much off, and people actually like the resulting sound, so he starts doing it to all violins he builds. That many many cycles of this resulted in something we cannot figure out how to improve anymore is even more astounding tbh. ² and this has of course happened. there are instruments now that weren't around 400 years ago. A lot, in fact.

[@quentinfitzgerald3305]

I agree - Lets start many thousands of years ago with a single string attached to a length of wood end either plucked or bowed-and then we end up with a violin or fiddle which hasn't changed much over 400 years because exponentially very few improvements are possible over the lifetime of stringed intrument.

[@johnjriggsarchery2457]

M1zzu q The form of the violin as we know it came about 400 years ago and hasn't been improved upon to any great degree. That's the crux of this discussion.

[@jameshill2450]

But that form wasn't "invented" as the speech implies. It was the end result of an incredibly long development process that took place over centuries, if not millennia, to arrive at the ideal specifications. The video makes it sound like some genius just decided to make this thing one day, and it was so great that nobody has been able to make a better thing ever since then.

[@The_Story_Channel]

I did not get that from the video but perhaps I did not read between the lines. Improvement in the last 400 years does not mean or even imply that there was no improvement or progress in the basic design before the 400 year period of which he speaks about. I think some people are missing the point or over thinking things. Improved upon in the last 400 years simply means you need to take the "before" out of the equation.

[@sireugenecourtney5797]

Who believes in evolution anyway? Why not intelligent design for the human species as well as inspiration from the Lord to have some European race know it all create the perfect violin. Why are European created instruments considered to be superior to all other instruments created by other races? Was the banjo, created by Africans and only after exposure to European intelligence, and the Earl Scruggs method of playing, improved or changed until its recent state? Are Middle Eastern and Asiatic stringed instruments considered inferior? Why has the human singing voice deteriorated to the point where we need autotune and melodyne or is it the laziness and lack of professionalism of the Les Paul sound engineers? Has the creation of the piano caused the loss of livelihood of 10 strumming stringed instrument troubadours? Can gifted bluegrass and jazz stringed instrument players play both genres? Can the ability to improvise well be taught or is it instinctive? Does the degree of intelligence play into the improvisational factor?

[@dopeyjake]

what about neck angle?

[@benn93z28]

Hi Mark, I have a somewhat related question: Do you believe that the sound of the violins made by the most popular luthiers from the 18th century is unique and cannot be reproduced on modern instruments? There have been a few blind tests in the past few years and the answer seems to be "No". This was an eye-opener for me, because if that indeed is the case, are we selling the great luthiers of today short? Rich businessmen and dealers that own some of those great 18th century instruments are reluctant to allow their instruments to be tested in a similar manner, which is understandable. However, this is a conversation, that in my opinion, needs to take place.

[@jayturbo5181]

I’ve heard/seen of Mark O’Connor and I love his style.. To the negative Nancies out there, I’ve never heard of you and don’t know your style.. Mark wins..

[@michaelmartinez8566]

I like how everyone is trying to debate Mark O Connor and dispute him. The guy is a master violin and fiddle style player. I believe he's going to know the in and outs of the instrument, the terms he's using and more. As a violin and fiddle player you have to be articulate, knowledgeable, smart to play the instrument and to learn the articulation that comes with learning different styles of the music.

[@paulshelleyviolins3125]

where's the stumping...?

[@Guitcad1]

Uh, the violin has been improved considerably since it was invented. Look at a baroque violin alongside a modern one. The neck is now set at an angle with a dovetail joint instead of being set almost straight in line with the body and held on with NAILS! (I still can't get over that! Stradivari's necks were originally NAILED on, for cryin' out loud!) Because of the shallower angle, the bridge is not as tall on a baroque violin. The modern fingerboard is considerably longer; a baroque violin fingerboard doesn't even come down to the corner blocks, whereas on a modern instrument it usually comes down between the corner blocks and the tops of the f holes. The reason this happened is that during the 19th Century the advent of steel strings meant that instruments could be strung more tightly than before and could produce more sound, of which the composers of the time began to demand more and more. A modern violin is a much more powerful instrument than a baroque violin. Of course, a lot of top performers still play Strads, Amatis and Guarneris but if you look, they have all been modified. Very few Strads are still preserved in the original baroque configuration and none are played like that except maybe for period music. Shostakovich would turn them into matchsticks.

[@markoconnor]

+Guitcad1 Steel strings came along in the late 1800s, the longer neck began in the early 1800s and it didn't have anything to do with steel string use, but more for compositions that required higher positions to play in. Some guitars have an extra couple of frets, but it largely does not change the sound nor is it an improvement generally. The way the neck fastens into the body of the violin from 400 years ago has been improved obviously from the nails they initially use, but it does not change the sound, and the contraption concept that I spelled out in the talk remains the same. I am referring to the contraption made of parts and how they are combined to make this amazing sound as compared to any other device known to us. That is the part that stumped the scientists in the audience... not the fact of how the neck fastens into the body of the instrument! By contrast, guitars have improved, they are twice the size nearly of the ones even in the 1800s. I have two. And they are twice as loud now because of the improvement to the construction design. The violins are twice as loud now mostly because of the development in string construction. But the shorter necks (and we are only talking about a fraction of an inch), has not much to do with the sound. Also you may be confused between the baroque violins which had shorter necks and at a different angle, and those by Amati which was the birth of the modern violin - and 400 years ago! The length of the violin neck was minimally changed from these original instruments - it is only about a 1/4 of an inch. This small amount did not change the sound that much at all. So it is minimal to the comparison of any other contraption that I posed to the group of scientists - and as you heard, they could not identify another one that equaled it!

[@zetacon4]

Thank you Mark, for mentioning that the early models were improved on by Amati and others who worked on the instrument during his lifetime. He became the gold standard and, as you so eloquently point out, our modern models have no significant changes to his models. One must study this subject in sections of history to gain a full understanding of how this particular stringed instrument developed, etc. I am seeing a great deal of confusion by those commenting on periods of development and change.....

[@healthdios]

The violin took a long time to evolve into what it is now days and to us it may seem like it stopped evolving but , that's just because the performance of music has become generalized to the point that almost on every corner we could run into a performer and the variety of music is the biggest it has ever been. This expansion of varieties and genres won't stop....

[@thesimberschannel6665]

Mark O'Connor: have you heard of the New Violin Family? They're here on KZbin too. Yes, not only has the violin been improved upon (slightly) in its acoustics, but the rest of the family has been expanded from four to eight and optimized as closely as reasonably possible to violin acoustics. This has required the rescaling of some in the traditional quartet, particularly the viola (as a former viola player, I'm glad that happened). The resulting sound is astounding. We owe to the late Carleen Hutchins and her peers in the Catgut Acoustical Society the development of these instruments.

[@thesimberschannel6665]

You might find them most easily via one of the groups which plays them, the Hutchins Consort.

[@HMDickson]

Well Simbers, I stand 6'8" and a standard violin is more like a half size to me. I take a 17 inch viola, use Thomastic chrome steel Infeld strings, toss the "C" string, move the A,D,and G over and add a 10 guage plain steel on the bottom. I now have a fiddle that will drown out a banjo :) Banjo players do look funny when you play over them LOL! You also rid yourself of all the viola jokes with a Fiddola HEHEHE! They do marvel when they hold it and rake the strings and the fillings in their teeth vibrate :)

[@GuitarGuy0008]

My boss is a well-known luthier. He always asks me if the violin was perfected or if it's innovation stagnated. Anyone who has read a most basic book on luthiery through the ages knows that the violin has actually changed extensively over time. Not so much as the double bass, but enough to call BS on the 400 years of perfection myth.

[@MarkBoese]

Please elaborate with examples.

[@sambulls]

If you knew anything you’d do your research, chin rest for example was not sround pre1800s at least . And does no one notice how important a shoulder rest is ??

[@davidweihe6052]

The double bass IS a violin, just the contrabass member of the set. Oh, and the viola is not an alto violin, it is a different, if similar, instrument. Look up the appropriate article from Scientific American.

[@zetacon4]

GuitarGuy0008 - , You could stand to use a bit more research. I believe you are in the company of many viewers who know a great deal about the history of this instrument. Take a look at the actual instruments we charish and still play that were made in the early 1700s. Best compare today's violin with those we have from early 1700 models. If you do, you will find no mechanical or physical significant changes with today's models. In fact, I just watched a video of this man who knows the math and physics of this instrument so well, he actually demonstrated making microscopic modifications to a test violin in front of an audience to show how scraping off a few atoms thickness in certain places made huge sound and tonal differences. You might want to watch that video before making too many more comments about this most wonderful invention.

[@carrottoponcrak]

sambulls The chin rest was invented by Louis Spohr who wanted more control in order to play his craziness; but I wouldn't call it an improvement in relation to the sound of the instrument.

[@ShadowPlay1919]

What about other instruments drums horns etc

[@frankiemadrid9030]

The cowbell!

[@dylanwight5764]

We have yet to improve upon the hyperbolic wedge lock

[@BloodShutEyes1]

He didn't stump anyone. I love the instrument, it's practically perfect, but when he asked what hasn't been improved upon in 400 years he got many answers. You could argue that the tires and the shapes of wheels aren't design changes on the wheel just as easily as you could argue that the neck angle change on the violin and fine tuners aren't design changes on the violin.

[@angelrwbf]

Actually, I think that what he was referring to here was the fundamental design of said "contraption" never needing to be improved upon. Even an electric violin is still the same fundamental deign that existed 400 years ago, it's simply had a specific feature added to it. & comparing the automobile to the horse & buggy in this case makes no sense, they're not even the same "contraception." Comparing the model-T to a contemporary automobile would at least make sense as a comparison.

[@bobbiemiles-foremaniii8747]

The guitar is going to be there one day. It's just weird to me that something so sensible as the guitar came much later than the insane idea of the violin. The violin is such an impractical thing. It was not designed for the player. It was designed to make the most beautiful sound possible

[@Mojokiss]

I can't imagine the violin being improved, haha. if it changed i would have to learn it all over again. the sound of it was already perfected over a very long time to produce the right sound for the registry of the instrument and the nature of the string striking method in such a way as to blend with other registries and work in a predictable way for music to be written

[@weisualize]

Isn't like asking if the goose feather has been improved? Sure it hasn't, but we have developed new instruments that can replace the goose feather in several contexts. Still, I am sure that you can't really obtain the same artistic results with a ball pen or with a computer, but they work pretty nicely in everyday life.

[@stereodreamer23]

Moveable type. Although the letterpress has seen improvements, and modern printing processes are faster, and modern photopolymer plates allow us to do digital typesetting for printing on letterpress machines, the type itself was perfectly designed by Gutenberg in the late 1450s, and nobody has improved upon it's design, durability, or implementation for the process of printing words using the relief-printing method

[@adamdegraff]

Love that Mark! That was fun and funny.

[@Gods2ndFavoriteBassPlyr]

Pure Genius.

[@piddler51]

Some have mentioned some changes made to the violin but the question ( I think) was concerning improvements. I take it he meant improvements to the sound.

[@lanes58]

That was some stumping.

[@kevsongsandarrangements]

I love the method book! It's so important to familiarize young students with American music, and get them acquainted with folk music. It is such an important part of our culture. We should do this with all instruments!

[@jeffb546]

If 5-7 stringers and electrics don't count, then there's a whole host of contraptions that have the violin beat for time. For a non-musical example there's the longbow, still used by traditional hunters and forgotten jungle tribes alike. A musical example is the harp. The great-granddaddy of all stringed instruments. Still used the way it's always been used. There's also the primitive flute which still has a following to this day. One of the earliest instruments known to man still used.

[@Guitcad1]

And as to the teaching of American music in schools, one problem they run into there (and not the only one, but a problem nonetheless) is that so much of American music is still under copyright. It's the same reason most "music appreciation" classes never go beyond Schoenberg.

[@Fredlife2023]

You might disagree with him, but you sure can't outplay him!

[@ygoldberg1287]

Fred C. Why didn't he play-waste

[@michaelshultz2540]

Check out my boy on fiddle with Live Wire; Driving You Out of My Mind . Official VEVO Video on Utube.

[@michaelshultz2540]

Oh ya check out Alex DePue

[@jtrawson1559]

400 Years! Really? You can find paintings of an extremely similar instrument in ancient Egypt. So I believe it's taken a lot longer to get it perfected.

[@pianomatteo]

Well said, sir. As a classically trained musician (now in an Indie Pop band, go figure) and a rational being, I agree with you in that classical music education and culture is not always but most often submerged in traditionalism that can prevent innovation and experimentation. Obviously it has gained some ground over the years, but it's still pretty taboo to wear jeans and clap excitedly after the 1st movement...etc. I definitely see the problems in it. It's too bad :(

[@klovur]

i cant believe someone actually said "the wheel"..sigh,,, the wheel and it's design/manufacturing/material and so on have been improved upon numerous times over even the past 10 years..let alone 4 HUNDRED..

[@Foreseeable1]

We have the Theremin for a while now. Listen to KATICA ILLÉNYI - Once Upon a Time in the West

[@johnpudil1083]

I went to high school with Mark 🤘

[@hyporealisttsilaeropyh6175]

Answer: the violin bow. Joking aside, the knife, the die, the bag, the basket, the pendulum, the shelf, table, chair, etc., the plate, cup, bowl, etc., the bell, the candle, the telescope... Many things have gone at least as unimproved as the violin in the past 400 years.

[@davidweihe6052]

The reflector telescope has improved; compare Hubble or the Webb (if it is deployed) to something made by Newton. Furthermore, it IS a contraption, which bags, candles, and cups certainly aren't.

[@charlesajones77]

I don't get it. Nothing he said was controversial. Why would "scientists" have any problem with it?

[@Varian128]

He never said anyone had a problem with it, nor was there ever a hint that anything in this video is controversial. It's a clever thought to ponder, even for a room full of brilliant minds, that's all.

[@Guitcad1]

Stephen Decker So, what does it mean when it says they were "stumped"?

[@Varian128]

Guitcad1 That they're stumped... not sure if there's supposed to be a sub-meaning behind it, but it means that they're at a loss for an answer.

[@Guitcad1]

An answer to what? To why the violin has never been improved? It has.

[@Varian128]

Guitcad1 It doesn't change the fact that the audience was stumped, even if the logic was, ultimately, flawed.

[@donolinger6904]

Wanna fall in love with the violin? I've got two words for you, Lettice Rowbotham. Just be careful, you might fall in love with her.

[@jason_hooper]

There has actually been quite a bit of innovation in violin making in 400 years. Look at the 1716 Messiah Stradivarius with it's longer neck and shallower body. Then, we have the innovations of the 19th century including the chin rest and longer fingerboard for greater ergonomics, and an increased string length. In the 20th century, we saw the use of shoulder rests and synthetic materials, no more gut strings, composite tail pieces to reduce the weight behind the bridge, lighter and tighter grained spruce, economy of graduation, and increase total resonance and power. Today, there are tone competitions to encourage the evolution of the violin towards a bigger sound with a greater ring. Makers compete to push the instrument to its limits. With the exception of a few preserved instruments (like the Messiah), violins that are being played are being reconditioned to the modern specifications of the instrument (aside from period ensembles), so I can see why you might be confused into thinking that there has not been progress in the violin's design, but if you took a preserved 17th century violin out and played on it, you would notice a big difference in sound.

[@blindjoe8300]

You should have mentioned Pythagorus’ musical scale as it’s applied to the violin and the sacred geometry of how string instruments are proportioned. 7 notes in a scale, 7 colors in the rainbow, 7 chakras in the body. The neck of the violin and fret spacing on guitars matching a natural logarithmic sequence. The actual tangible evidence of an emotional experience happening outside of the body, the way we resonate on an energetic level with sounds that stir certain vibes. Ever wondered why songs in d-minor are so sad? That the design hasn’t been changed in 400 years barely scratches the surface of the spiritual and scientific marvel that is the violin.

[@andrewm2399]

Every bit of antique furniture. All art from the renaissance and classical music. We are not progressing. We are in a state of cultural regression.

[@westnblu]

Didgeridoo?

[@wadeolder7193]

Right on. 40,000 years or so.

[@andrew2lu]

Hmmm, Like the wheel, I wouldn't quite call that a contraption. At least not at the complexity of a violin. Otherwise the recorder might also work...

[@veeeforvendetta]

I too said the didgeridoo without looking at the comments first... I was also thought the hurdy gurdy

[@ef-fj8th]

Jewish harp

[@deweypug]

So this is an advertisement....

[@garst59]

Aw piss! I wanted to see a fight.

[@adrianscarlett]

The wheel?

[@caseyvee4419]

Mike Cross has a better explanation about how a violin is constructed and how it makes sound.

[@Celloman4044]

Ah, thanks!

[@corthew]

Ok...When you say "stumps" you're speaking of the promotional definition. Like a stump speech or stumping for buyers. That said...Improvements in sound quality for the instrument have led to violins built for specific styles of music.

[@sambulls]

If you knew anything you’d do your research, the chin rest for example was not around pre1800s at least . And does no one notice how important a shoulder rest is ?? It is bought separate from the violin 🎻

[@jondoe888i]

It's good to hear opinions and discussions. But I wish ALL the arguers and those clever rebuttal-ists would listen, and read the damn comments! Mark is not talking about glues or fine tuners or finishes - unless he's addressed them. Please save all your brilliance for my new book - WHY LOOK - I'M SMARTER THAN MARK O'CONNOR'! Send in your comments today, to be included. PS - it's a coloring book! So no big words, please.

[@horseman9976]

ehh, but then when you start looking into the premium katanas and how they have been made from way back when... I would say without question, they far surpass cold steel products (not bashing coldsteel, super good for the $)

[@martyisabeliever]

Porche 911... well almost ;-)

[@iampownsauce]

Yes

[@Hugh7777]

The pressed-tin hurricane lantern has not been changed for about 150 years.

[@drmontague6475]

Miss-leading title How the fuck does he stump A Room Full Of Scientists About The Perfection Of The Violin? The viols preceded the violin family and we now also have electric violins

[@markoconnor]

Electric violins are not an improvement by any standard - sorry.

[@markoconnor]

Case in point. I am sitting in with The Dregs this week on an acoustic violin plugged in and Allen Sloan, the original Dregs violinist is playing an electric. If anything, the acoustic plugged in sounds better as an electric. kzbin.info/www/bejne/qoKYlnyLisuJiKc

[@drmontague6475]

You are giving a is subjective opinion. It like saying the electric guitar is not an improvement on the acoustic guitar. It depends what type of music you are playing.

[@markoconnor]

Wrong, it simply is not an improvement. It is rather something entirely different. Sorry once again.

[@drmontague6475]

You don't have to be sorry.

[@albert314159265]

violin actually invented before 1500, Andreas Amati, 1470

[@rpinpr61]

johnathan cooper....anybody?

[@shimtest]

how in the world is a violin considered a "perfect" invention? unless you consider the sound of a cat being strangled perfect

[@tyronetyson6351]

Electric violins are a pretty new update past 100 years some people like it better, Carbon fiber violins are even more recent, they are still pretty new and I can only imagine will get better and one can only hope cheaper. They even have electric violins now with 7 strings. If you ignore all these you should also ignore the automobile as an improvement to the horse and carriage...

[@lro0tslashwalker]

look up "cold steel" on youtube and rethink that comment lol

[@gts8361]

I can’t get past all the tongue smacking noise. Arrrreegggggghhhhh!

[@robertmizek3315]

If you are ever in the Phoenix AZ and get the chance visit the Musical Instrument Museum. mim.org. You’ll see that the bowed instruments like the violin existed in many different countries and were invented independently without inspiration from each other.

[@rorye4963]

Every other instrument thats older than the violin including the flute... also saying that something cannot be improved upon is genuinely stupid. For those that want to argue .. does every instrument sound the same?

[@wintesrain]

Contraption "a machine or device that appears strange or unnecessarily complicated, and often badly made or unsafe." Well that's not nice to say about the violin. I mean it's just a string stuck to a hollow piece of wood but you should give it more respect than that.

[@markoconnor]

"badly made or unsafe" is not the definition of a machine or device that is apt! Haha!

[@markoconnor]

Before chiming in so boldly, maybe some of you should look up the definition of "contraption" !! It is a piece of a equipment that looks strange and is complicated to operate. And certainly the violin can qualify as that. I think some of you also don't understand the difference between "change" and development. If a piece of music changes, it could resort into a new piece of music. However if the piece of music develops, then it is the same piece but with new additions. In this case thought, the finetuners, the chinrest are not a part of the violin's sound and perfection I am referring to. They have been a been a part of the "contraption" set up for however 200 years, also a very long time!! And that arguments also stands on its own merits. But I certainly can play and produce a beautiful tone from a violin without a chinrest, or finetuners. Whereas, the violin requires a tailpiece and a bridge and the soundpost, the bass bar, the beveled front and back etc etc.. and the litany of things I list in order for the thing to produce the sound. Some more things for you good folks to think about! But the test still stands, the violin was designed in a perfect form so long ago, 400 years ago, it is a contraption certainly as it takes several parts together in order to make it work and it is complicated to make work. Let's face it, some of your arguments are not thought out - a pottery vase is not a contraption as it is widely defined. It is not strange and complicated. It is about the easiest thing to imagine, and dates back to the beginning of human history. Same thing can be said about the arrow, dagger, knife,... these are not "complicated". Bad argument. I stand completely behind my presentation!

[@jeremyvaughn2711]

Maybe you should reconsider the term complicated. Making pottery is difficult as is carving stone. As difficult to master as the violin or piano. Carving those intricate jade sculpture is not something one picks up on the weekend. Are these the differences you are trying to define by complicated? Is genetic coding any less complicated or a contraption oriented practice than violin playing? I fail to see your point because you are not making one. Your argument continually uses several logical fallacies. These are common and this is where things go sideways. 1) Appeal to Authority: here you are using yourself as the authority by challenging the audience to address a ridiculous question. Terrible pedagogy as well. 2) Argument of Incredulity: You argument lacks depth and imagination and is the victim of your own ignorance of history, engineering, and Etymology. 3) Appeal to Wishful Thinking: Just because you want your ideas to be true does not mean that they are. 4) The Burden of Proof: You make a claim with no historical evidence nor have you described the terms or engagement. If an object or contraption without modification or severe change over 400 years is the criteria - why would the drum not be considered? What about stone carving tool which has been largely unchanged for vastly longer than 400 years. What about a shovel? A hammer? A Table? Suggested Reading: The Republic, by Plato, 360 B.C.E. Lastly, I have had to argue these points many times before. For reason of nostalgia, tradition, craft or otherwise follies of creative imagination we will continue to innovate. The multi-media platform we are using is an evolution of Gutenberg's press. Not that his work was not innovative at the time but shit changes. And it should. Making plea that when things do not have some intrigued "betterness" to it, is a folly.

[@markoconnor]

You completely missed the whole point! To operate the contraption in this illustration is the part that I am saying is complicated. I should know, I am undisputed expert at operating the violin. It is not complicated to operate a vase. A contraption is something with parts that work together. So that takes care of your points you've made, because your basis for your argument was flawed and way off the point here. It was simply not what I said, nor what I was asking the audience. I was not talking about the contraption to make contraptions, I was talking about the human development and skill in making the contraption.

[@jeremyvaughn2711]

Ok. You got me, undisputed one. For the record, your question was lame. I wanted more from this exchange. Go forth and live in your own ignorance.

[@markoconnor]

I don't live in ignorance, that is why I asked the question to a few hundred scientists in the room... as I was not sure about it! I made a good case for them to consider about the violin I suppose, and then they responded! If there was so many obvious things that were better than the violin, then this video probably would not have been made and it would not have so many views. I think the content is what it is, certainly I did not create the outcome of the question. That was presented by the scientists in the room and it made a cool video.

[@WeWereYoungandCrazy]

Mark, give it up. most of these guys came here looking for moon landing arguments. The violin hasn't fundamentally changed in 400 years. period. thank you for the video and your music.

[@zetacon4]

As I have read many of the posts by viewers, I am amazed how misinformed they are. Many confuse the stages of development during the early, middle and last centuries under consideration. Others have no working knowledge of the mechanical physics employed to create such marvelous tonal renounces and sonic uniformity of volume. Many speak as if they are master experts on this subject. Wow. And, when they speak, they show just how NOT expert they are. There must be a psych class topic to cover such a human condition.

[@crawfordviolin]

Not perfected. The neck was innitally nailed onto and not dovetailed and was at a lower angle to the bridge. The bridge has reached a somewhat standardized shape. There was often no chinrest. The strings were strictly gut. And the bows reached their developmental hight c. 1850.

[@Mwfrizzellandsons]

A chisel

[@samharper7001]

'The violin has been a cornerstone of American music for 400 years' The USA isn't even 400 years old

[@plznostep98]

+sam harper yeah but america does not equal usa! why should american music be defined by the existence of one country? there were people living in america for much longer and they also made music...

[@JohnSmith-pd1fz]

But they don't know any better, do they? They, the americans, cannot conceive of a world where there was no america because they believe they are the beginning and end of all things.

[@captainkangaroo4301]

Jamestown was founded in North America in 1607. The United States wasn’t formally established for another 182 years with the ratification of the constitution.

[@chrispile3878]

Full of poop, John. Bet you vote Democrat.

[@azynkron]

How does that, even if true, change the overwhelming ignorance of 'muricans? Aug 6th 1945 - Atomic bomb dropped on a mainly civilian target (Hiroshima) Aug 9th 1945 - Atomic bomb dropped on a mainly civilian target (Nagasaki) Approx 200000 civilian casualties in a war that was over already. Sep 11th 2001 still considered the worst thing that happened to mankind by 'muricans.

[@lostcreektilley]

Saying nothing at all about the instrument, let's talk about how the man in the video holding the violin has perfected the execution of music and said contraption!

[@sideswipe147]

the Japanese Katana hasn't been improved upon in longer than that. IIRC they came about in the 13th-14th century or so.

[@MarkBoese]

But it hasn't been used as anything more than a ceremonial weapon in a very long time.

[@thatotherperson2]

I mean, the uchigatana you're referring to varied by school and on top of that they changed subtly every century or two. Katana, to be fair, are fundamentally different from a violin because the battlefield and techniques used (bujitsu) evolved rapidly. There are hundreds of distinct styles of both tachi and uchigatana and quite a few more yet if you include tanto and wakizashi.

[@Byte446]

This guy has never heard of an electric violin. NEXT.

[@markoconnor]

The Dregs Reunion Tour 2018, Mark O’Connor sits in on The Bash in Charleston! (This was tonight! First time I played with Steve Morse and Dixie Dregs in 35 years! We got insane on it!) kzbin.info/www/bejne/qoKYlnyLisuJiKc

[@Discrimination_is_not_a_right]

They'd get a better sound with carbon fiber, but if one thing is constant among classical musicians' views, it's inertia. (speaking as a classical musician)

[@larrysmith7118]

This is not true they use better materials and put electric pick ups on them i believe that is an improvement.

[@tcphll]

Change does not equal improvement. No orchestra uses violins with electric pick ups. The basic design of a violin has remained the same for centuries. And as far as better materials, violins are still made from spruce, and as far as I can tell, nature hasn't evolved a better spruce tree.

[@pattystomper1]

Why don't violins have a cutaway to make it easier to hit high notes?

[@unabashedpatriot2693]

Like the cannabis cigarette it's a classic

[@dldudwns]

A Swiss watch

[@TheDustinFreshour]

I would say the sword.

[@bushwacker3292]

Hang it to Paul Warren 🕺 played fiddle for Flatt & Scruggs. He will make it sound right if it want no good. 👍

[@FernGullyandtheLastKlumous]

In many ways we have lost the ability to do what we once did. Witness the defective turrets of Washington's National Cathedral which are still under repair following the Aug 23 2012 earthquake. There are Saxon towers in East Anglia that are in better shape after 700 years. The church of St Mary in Market Weston, Suffolk comes to mind.

[@davidweihe6052]

OTOH, Hagia Sophia's original roof fell in after only a few years. The Saxon towers probably haven't experienced earthquakes like the 2012 earthquake; even Washington only gets a noticeable one every fifty or so years, so who designs for them? Would the Saxon towers survive as well if they were built in Japan, where they expect worse earthquakes every few years?