Marshall McLuhan and the Electric Nervous System of Antichrist - with Christian Roy

Christian Roy is a scholar who studies media and traditional symbolism. We look at how McLuhan's frightfully accurate vision of the future can help us discern what is happening to us in the internet age.
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[@filipbook5605]

Imagine the times, I am a 27 year old who works at a supermarket in a small town in Sweden and I can learn and try to recognise the symbolic patterns of our time whether good or bad. Invaluable information from both of you, thank you! It is really refreshing seeing beings speaking of our time outside of it if you understand what I mean.

[@CarlCallmer]

Vilken stad?

[@filipbook5605]

@@CarlCallmer Ystad!

[@Jennifer-gv7gp]

naajs! Stockholmare här :)

[@danhallett4952]

Very cool! Just went to Sweden last year, we wanted to go here. Visited Stockholm, smogen, Gothenburg, jonkoping, we didn’t have time to make it to ystad, or malmo. Beautiful country! We are from Connecticut USA.

[@filipbook5605]

That's amazing Dan! I would love to visit the US some time in my life. Especially Texas for barbeque :D @@danhallett4952

[@HomesteadForALiving]

Now is a good time to create self-sufficient rural communities with like-minded people...

[@fakename7901]

isn't that what cults are :v

[@stephenpaccone8120]

Beartaria

[@nicholasdonin1465]

@@fakename7901 that's what the beast wants you to think. It's called community

[@ShowMeMoviesInc.]

#STEADPILL

[@sirazazeloflowkey6424]

Sadly all of the world's governments conspire to make this harder and harder to achieve. It's too costly and unworkable for most of us to even attempt it, let along succeed and presevere. And then there is the question how long it will be before them and their soldiers and weapons are at your doorstep telling you to conform and join or perish by their hands.

[@jnapier32]

The book "meditation on the tarot" talks about the antichrist vs Christ in terms of electricity vs Holy Spirit, which if I recall correctly is synthetic life vs true life or fission vs fusion, where one is caused by energy from being opposed to the other (the law of evolution and "will to power" opperates under the law of electricty and antichrist) whereas the realm of the Spirit operates creates life through bringing together (fusion) and thus "radiates" light like the Sun (the law of Love and the "will to serve" are what the author calls this law of Christ and the Holy Spirit). All forms of energy and life that come forth from "electric" forces are thus not the Eternal forces that created and gave life to the universe but a false animating force that appears to give life but really in the end causes death. The Frankenstein monster comes to mind as a symbol of this being animated by electricity vs Jesus who was resurrected by the power of Love.

[@714jud]

Very helpful. Thank you. Much appreciated.

[@justinward3554]

I think there is a useful comparison as well between the "Thrill" vs "Well-Being" components of human experience.

[@jasonroberts2249]

Very interesting. You’d probably also find the book Reign of Quantity by René Guénon interesting. It’s on Jonathan’s reading list.

[@FortYeah]

Would you say that what is created - Nature - is based on antagonist forces - energy would be the result of opposites like electricity is - and that there is an uncreated source, God, which is beyond opposites and therefore eternal, outside time..?

[@haadidave]

Please share some references and further reading. This reminds me of Egyptian Ka and Ba. I've seen orbs of electricity and paranormal activities(lights flashing in sequence).

[@adammontgomery5532]

Brilliant stuff! As a hack, some people may find this one easier to listen to at 1.25 speed.

[@mkabalistic]

Dud! Thank you!! Haha with the first stuttering !

[@cactoidjim1477]

I always start at 1.75 or 2x If it's tough to follow, i try to hang on for at least 60 sec, then drop it a notch, and at that point 1.5x sounds normal

[@MammaKat1]

Thanks for the tip.

[@randallb.7180]

Great idea!

[@Mateo-et3wl]

Lol a hack? It's just a setting

[@j.p.marceau5146]

Woah you really went all out in this one! Merci Christian et Jonathan!

[@conantheseptuagenarian3824]

i needed these conversations fifteen years ago. seriously would have saved my life.

[@madduckks]

Jesus can still save your life.

[@conantheseptuagenarian3824]

@@madduckks get to praying.

[@AlexLGagnon]

Rest in peace.

[@conantheseptuagenarian3824]

@@AlexLGagnon i pray that the hell that came upon me comes upon you. then you'll understand.

[@AlexLGagnon]

@@conantheseptuagenarian3824 Why are you so bitter? I commented that out of irony because clearly, you were still alive when typing your comment. God bless you man.

[@HeloIV]

Perfect timing, I read the Medium is the Message just the other day! There's been quite a few people lately talking about what's coming forth from current technology

[@HeloIV]

@Bob Bobbertson If you want to frame it that way, there is always a devil coming

[@HeloIV]

@Bob Bobbertson what the hell are you talking about? Whoever said that? You are projecting. Just because one is wary of the dangers that might come from new technologies doesn't mean one's a luddite. It's just being sensible, when something new is coming you always try to assess both its perks and its dangers. It's called "trying to understand"

[@mostlydead3261]

@Bob Bobbertson that is not what McLuhan was saying.. he called to us embrace techne as the expression of creative spirit, ever transcending and ecstatic..

[@06rtm]

34:28 Its interesting that recent technological advances now allow farmers to effectively separate the wheat from the tare during harvest for the first time in history. Tare is no longer a problem weed. Is this meaningful or just coincidence?

[@Chloeayoy]

Oh my just let the guy speak French and do the subtitle I feel bad for him.

[@rabbyssi4392]

Walter J Ong’s Orality and Literacy. Definitely give that book a go if you like what this dude is saying about culture and there relationship with media of communication. Mcluhan is one of my favs, glad to see he is being discussed on this channel

[@nikaMeea]

Set the speed of the video at 1.5 and should be easier to follow what the guest is saying.

[@jstanley011]

What McLuhan could not foresee was the extension of the human mouth as an organ of communication that information technology would enable. The communications, via both Gutenberg's invention and the electronics of McLuhan's day, were not interactive, but rather, mostly one-way. An author wrote for his readers, who gave feedback via book sales. A TV producer put on a show for the audience, whose reactions were gauged by ratings. The multi-user communication platforms that information technology has enabled has widened the space in which, not just human communications may occur, but also human interactions. Jonathan Pageau doesn't have to catch the eye of a publisher or TV producer to find a platform, but can produce a blog and a KZbin channel himself. Furthermore, while he can look at his platform's analytics to gauge the reactions to his work, he has much more immediate feedback available from his commenters. And just as importantly, not only can he choose to interact directly with his audience, his audience can choose to interact with each other. The non-space space, or virtual space, where non-local human interactions occur, has a name. It's called cyberspace. Cyberspace began with the telephone. If you think about it, it's evident; that's where phone conversations occur. Where else? Likewise with Marconi's invention in its two-way iteration. The next leap forward was Web 2.0, "TV you can talk back to," which is the virtual space where bloggers and KZbin producers still reside. But now, cyberspace has become dominated by social media, which provide mass-user platforms broad enough for virtual tribes to form. I would argue that, to the degree cyberspace harbors a coherent "beast," its body, organs and appendages are still in embryonic form. I think a common human failing is to leap to conclusions about a phenomenon when only its bare outlines are visible. This beast has a ways to go before it slouches all the way to Gomorrah.

[@ryanmentz5671]

Actually McLuhan did see the "extension of the human mouth as an organ of communication that information technology would enable." He dedicated most of his work to describing its effects. Read Laws of Media, I believe that is where he directly attacks the old "pipeline" form of communication models in favor of the "feedback" models which are now used today in comm theory. He was also the man who termed the coin "global village" because he thought the intense speed up of information which electronic comm brought would turn the entire world into a village in which I can talk to someone, say Jeff Stanley, while sitting across the globe. I think your final paragraph about it being in embryonic form is fair. We may be farther along then you foresee however. McLuhan spoke of the successive extensions of the body being developed through technology. Essentially, man outers himself due to an imbalance within himself ("imbalance of the ratio of perceptions"). He said that with man extending (outering) his electric nervous system, he has proceeded to outer all parts of himself less one. In lots of his writings he describes the 10 thunders of Finnegan's wake in order to describe the big bangs of tech innovations throughout the history of mankind, check it out if interested. The final extension which is to be completed is man's extension of consciousness itself. The final unbroken territory as it were. This is what Silicon Valley and tech orgs are currently trying to do with uploading of intelligence in order to live forever and other similar projects... Just a natural consequence of people trying to deal with the anxiety of imbalance which exists in all of us, most commonly referred to as original sin.

[@chuck6033]

@@ryanmentz5671 Grateful Dead LSD Acid Test Velvet Underground Methamphetamine Exploding Plastic Inevitable.

[@trucid2]

I, too, read Playboy for the articles.

[@Michael-ns1ey]

I want to believe you.

[@Menaceblue3]

There's reading articles in playboy? Sorry I was distracted by the beautiful photography between the pages!

[@tomislavglavas2180]

@@Michael-ns1ey Playboy always had the best interviews. Have a read of this McLuhan Playboy interview for example web.cs.ucdavis.edu/~rogaway/classes/188/spring07/mcluhan.pdf

[@ethanshepard8608]

This was way too good. "Civil war" is inevitable but the ideas presented here give a new perspective on how it might look post war. Recently I came across the idea that it is more likely to see city and counties secede. It seems far fetch for many reasons that we'll see militia engaged in battle. But secession and stratus of identity can very much go hand in hand. I think it'll be more or less a bloodless war, and far spiritually and psychologically devastating

[@SavageCommentaryOriginal]

What's so civil about war anyway?

[@SavageCommentaryOriginal]

@cable what we've got here is failure to communicate...

[@JamesStevensTEXALTA]

@savagecommentary Right... technically it just means against fellow citizen

[@SavageCommentaryOriginal]

@@JamesStevensTEXALTA some men you just can't reach

[@KENTUCKYUSA1]

@@SavageCommentaryOriginal So it may prove to be an uncivil civil war.

[@764Kareltje]

Of course one of the deepest most interesting interviews ever had to be published in a 1960s Playboy.

[@samliedtke]

Definitely on the right track! I was walking in the Spirit today and can definitely say that we should repent, for the time is at hand. Jesus Christ is the Son of God come in the flesh!

[@trappaskunk]

I do not understand why McLuhan is not given his due. He is by far the thinker with the deepest insights into our current world

[@Moneyman-33]

That is precisely why. Peterson goes viral and they called him a fascist. I don’t know where cleaning your room and taking over the world align but it seems any man with real insights is defamed in media.

[@jackworthington4660]

@@Moneyman-33 since when did fascism mean taking over the world?

[@Moneyman-33]

@@jackworthington4660 Im just talking about Hitlers goal since obviously that’s the comparison they want you to make. Idk why you’re being combative just for the sake of it. What I meant was so obvious.

[@Moneyman-33]

@@jackworthington4660 Because for people to vote for democrats they have to be hopeless, lost, confused, and demoralized. They is the establishment. Neocons and progressive shaking hands under tables and working with media to keep people in fear. Hence why if Obama was President they would never in a million years try to insinuate Obama killed 200,000 people with his Covid response but they are more than willing to weaponize that rhetoric on Trump. It’s all a game of fear. Peterson offers a message of hope, which is why the left labels him “far right” even tho any sane person would qualify Peterson as just a “classical liberal” much like Sargon, who is also constantly labeled far right. “They”, “The Establishment” “The Swamp” thrive on fear and accusations. Accuse people of racism or tyranny to make their helpless hopeless hordes mobilize online and in real life to stop people from finding that hope. It’s out there. There’s plenty of hope in the world. But the modern left does no want you to be aware of any of it. They want you to abandon your family and worship the establishment.

[@Moneyman-33]

@@jackworthington4660 Because you don’t know me but proceed to take a pretentious tone in the conversation clearly talking down. So I’ll insult you and not feel bad about it. Understand?

[@JoeSinopoli]

The Poe "simile" regarding the counter-current food is apt ... for this video is one of those bites: A resonant guiding light towards the divine found in the belly of the beast.

[@ChristIsKingPhilosophy]

The solution to the global village is to conquer culture. That's what JBP is trying to do. To conquer through love, through being open to losing, to dying. The infinite is conquered by the finite when the finite embraces finitude.

[@JamesStevensTEXALTA]

Well said... steal the culture, bottom up

[@solank7620]

@@JamesStevensTEXALTA Culture is always engineered top down. Our culture was created by social engineering by the powers that be. The people that own the Fed. The CIA was highly involved.

[@JamesStevensTEXALTA]

@@solank7620 looks to me like Christianity changed the culture starting with 12 disciples... the ramifications and effects took centuries to materialize. It's top down too but a lot times politics is downstream of culture

[@ChristIsKingPhilosophy]

It's both top down and bottom up. You can't have one without the other. It's dialogue or nothing. If you are not free to decide, you are not free to do, and if you are not free to propose, then you are not free to be.

[@trappaskunk]

The medium is the Mass-Age.

[@ericfaith2810]

Beautiful and brilliant advice! Thank you so much for this.

[@greatmomentsofopera7170]

I found this extremely difficult to follow, though it does seem interesting. I think it's the number of hesitations - hard to keep track of what the thought being presented is. EDIT: speeding up to 1.5 speed does help. Thanks guys!

[@livingroomc]

I listened to it a second time and it went much better for me.... that was after reading more McLuhan.... It’s taking me time to get facile with the ideas presented here....

[@topazblahblah]

What a great conversation! And the ending was very hopeful.

[@marshallmcluhan33]

The medium is the message ♾

[@annidee]

The Medium Is the message

[@user-on2ys9jr6t]

Jonathan, can you make a video on the Pope supporting same sex unions.

[@user-on2ys9jr6t]

@Peter Dadin I am only speculating but I get the impression he is not pro gay marriage but avoids the issue because of the virulent cancel culture we live in. Tbh, I don't care if two homosexuals wish to be married, I think the state shouldn't define marriage in the first place. I was just completely blown away that the Pope supports it because its literally apart of Catholic teaching that it's wrong, 2020 is wild.

[@cactoidjim1477]

The lamestream Media is grossly misrepresenting Francis. Check for the transcript and read the full context. If a government has *already decided* that LGBT couples deserve status, it should be civil unions - not marriage. He was not advocating that every country immediately embrace civil unions.

[@mostlydead3261]

the pope likes himself a nice young monk or altar boy I think.. just preaching what he lives..

[@thepartyfellowship]

I incidentally made a video about "God's Cosmic Love Orbit" and although it isn't about same sex unions per sé, it is about personal unions and I think you may enjoy it. Its very detailed and colorful: kzbin.info/www/bejne/emqVlWZmfLVlgtk

[@jeannem3688]

I have my share of concerns about this Pope and do not agree with all of what he said but in fairness he appears to have been taken out of context and other remarks the Pope has made on the subject show he does not support same sex marriage. This podcast gives a good overview: soundcloud.com/trenthornpodcast/367-pope-francis-same-sex-marriage-and-civil-unions

[@lnb29]

Really cool! wish it was in french with subtitles tho 😬

[@izrador2264]

I appreciate the content but the amount of uh's and er's and whatnot make this very hard to follow.

[@paam1971]

"...to...to...today Junior...!" - Billy Madison

[@nikaMeea]

Set the speed of the video at 1.5 and should be easier to follow what the guest is saying.

[@izrador2264]

@@nikaMeea Thats a great suggestion, thanks

[@JamesStevensTEXALTA]

Maybe not his first language? If so, I'll take it, given the alternative is subtitles.

[@lisaonthemargins]

@@JamesStevensTEXALTA Yeah French is his first language

[@manfredarcane9130]

Nothing unique about what McLuhan was writting there, nor was he 'warning' of anything. He was channeling de Chardin who was all the rage at the time that article was published and, like de Chardin, he was eagerly looking forward to that future.

[@christianroy7459]

Yes, I'm sorry I forgot to bring up the obvious Teilhard connection. (And it is Teilhard, not de Chardin, when you abridge his three-word family name.) On the other hand, it might have taken us on a tangent. But the connection is implied when I point out the connection to transhumanists, who rightly revere Teilhard as their "patron saint".

[@ibelieve3111]

Thanks

[@razvan_anton]

Great talk! The thing I found most interesting is that so many topics which were mentioned : the way we absorb knowledge, the sound the word and the image and their standardization, even Christ and Antichrist, Global brain, 1984 style manipulation, the fact that it's easy to be seduced by the machine, etc etc ...are in many ways better described by the Romanian philosopher Lucian Blaga. I've read McLuhan and Blaga and it's strange to me how I've never made the connection until I watched this conversation. Blaga divides all knowledge of mankind in Paradisiac and Luciferian Knowledge where Paradisiac is that which is and Luciferian is knowledge brought about by a causing crisis in an object. I will add some links below ,hopefully to better explain what do I mean by this comparison and why I felt it was necessary to bring it up . 1. A short intro to Blaga's philosophy noema.crifst.ro/ARHIVA/2013_2_1.pdf 2. Why it's important for the West to read Blaga's work especially regarding these particular topics aos.ro/wp-content/anale/FPVol5Nr1-2Art.11.pdf 3. About Blaga from the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy iep.utm.edu/lucian-blaga/

[@razvan_anton]

As a quick example, right off the top of my head, between Blaga and McLuhan is the idea of the village and what that represented for the Modern World. Unlike the English Catholic/Protestant West, Blaga came from a Romanian Orthodox point of view. He believed that Protestantism and Catholicism encouraged the development of cities while Orthodoxy contributed to the growth of villages: Western villages were miniature cities no longer possessing their creative originality and rural character, while Eastern cites were overgrown villages that retained their primitive creativity. Therefore, the uniqueness of the Romanian national character was born of Orthodox dogma resulting from semi-pagan folklore, and the elements that distinguished Romanians from Serbs and Bulgarians were manifested most obviously in the output of folk artists and poets. As a result, self-definition through the Romanian cultural unconscious established an original perception of "Romanianness."

[@Joefrenomics]

I’m very intrigued after reading what you have linked. Are there any works of Blaga that you recommend to read from here?

[@razvan_anton]

@@Joefrenomics Poems of Light, Zalmoxis : Obscure Pagan .

[@user-fr8kn5si2e]

Jonathan, you should interview the brazilian philosopher Luiz Gonzaga de Carvalho Neto. A true but low-profile genius.

[@Jaccobtw]

Gonna be honest. I had no idea what this dude was talking about.

[@butsirrr]

Agreed. Too many uhhhs and ehmmmms

[@marthaduncan7694]

Ready👍💟❄🙏 to learn

[@alwyndsilva1858]

Loved this conversation,!!

[@fitz3540]

Johnathan, have you read any works by Dugin? He's been popping up more in the peripheral corners of the internet, and he makes some interesting observations about society from a Russian Orthodox perspective. In particular, his points on the three Logi: Appolonian, Dionysian, and Cybelian. Your points around 45min and forward seems very similar to some of his ideas in Noomakhia.

[@peepoclown1]

I would offer words of caution regarding Aleksandr Dugin. The man has few original ideas, but re-hashes 20th century White Russian, Soviet, and German thought; foremostly, that of Ivan Ilyin. I find his ideology as antithetical and juxtaposed to the Orthodox faith. That being said, I’m just some random man from the internet-what I’ve to say isn’t worth much, lol.

[@randallb.7180]

Video Drome (a horror movie) was based on Mcluhen's work. It's not really scarry, but it is disturbing and bizarre. I'm going to watch it again after this talk.

[@butsirrr]

I have it downloaded in my pc. Thanks for the reminder

[@randallb.7180]

@@butsirrr Resist the new flesh!

[@butsirrr]

@@randallb.7180 is this some spoiler? Noooooo

[@randallb.7180]

@@butsirrr I watched the trailer a moment ago. I got lucky, it's not a spoiler. You're viewing shall be pure! Lol!

[@GrievousThaumatin]

Steiner called the principality of the Beast as the spirit of Ahriman .Age of Christ ends ,EVEN the spirit of LUCIFER suffers .i.e human (spirit) creativity. We live in the age of Ahriman. His description creepier more eerily chilling than any scifi

[@deedeekay1642]

At minute 23- a very impressive modern day example of what the Bible says is our responsibility to do.

[@jnapier32]

Jonathan have you heard the term "Egrogore?" Have you ever read the book "Meditations on the Tarot"?

[@kamadden]

So good. And in no small measure, ironically, because you two were sitting in each other's bodily presence in the same room! More in-person discussions, please! Can we understand embodiment of fallen principalities (or at least "possession") and Anti-Christ without reference to Babylon? In this discussion of the global village, too, don't we have to see Babel/Babylon? Answered by the Incarnation/Pentecost and Salem/Jerusalem?

[@kamadden]

@jaffa 360 Jonathan opens a line of inquiry, in the conversation, about the embodiment of fallen angels in the form of Anti-Christ. He is cautious, because in Protestant fundamentalist circles such as the one he (and I) grew up in, someone is always trying to identify a pope or a Hitler with the Anti-Christ. Indeed, this has been a tendency throughout church history, and it misses the mark, I think we would both say. Nevertheless, Anti-Christ is not just an abstraction. It comes to ground, so to speak, in cultural and historical manifestations. My point: The Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, is the tale of these two cities. They are spiritual cities, and who is a citizen of which is not always evident. Citizens of Jerusalem may actually be working for Babylon. The spirit of Anti-Christ appears and rules Babel/Babylon just as Christ is the rightful Lord of Jeru[S]alem (prefigured in Melchizedek, ruler of Salem). This video does not mention either city. Which is a mistake, I think, in a conversation about McLuhen's "global village."

[@kamadden]

Clarification: Hitler, for example, *manifests* Anti-Christ, but is not *the* (one and only, for all time) Anti-Christ.

[@06rtm]

Does anyone know what shirt the guest is wearing? I want one

[@nonordinaryreality2686]

Sick people create sick societies. But people like Jonathan work tirelessly to bring about something healthier 👍

[@freddyruto3139]

round 2. Nice!

[@SonofWoman-hx5bd]

The thing about giving body to Christ is that historically we have miserably failed to do so as a collective. The bizantine empire is not even a good example because even then, it was filled with the collective error that lead it's culture to ireelvance. Not ethernal by any means of interpretation. Maybe we were able to give body to Christ in some exceptional cases that individually portray some person as a saint, but the concept of sanctity as something that a whole group embodies towards a clear distinction of the group, it's just not there yet. We are too individual still. Too full of darkness to the extent where what we call "love" unequivocally leads to a residual which well, births an error. The new temple that should arise within the ashes of Christianity, will surely have to be Christ as a collective and no longer just within one person: the same way cells conform our own bodies as people. Right now it's too hard for the average Joe who's ignorant, stupid and not moral, to even trust his own wife who will eventually divorce him either way. Godly love cannot come from ignorance, so all the efforts to birth a better future should stem from fully understanding cognition, psychology, and the way it relates people to each other. Human behavior now that humanity has forgotten God is unpredictable, besides the means people use to get their fucking money. Money is easier to understand anyway.

[@Joefrenomics]

So when’s the 3rd interview?!

[@DinoRamzi]

Picky I know, but in the description, you name the opening music “Eastern Overture.” It is “Easter Overture” as in the Easter Festival Overture. L’ouverture de la Grande Pâque Russe

[@JonathanPageau]

Typo. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

[@mateusutn]

@@JonathanPageau have you ever talked about the symbolism behind the Apple logo?

[@chrisyoung2179]

I love the image of the maelstrom. Which Edgar Allen Poe story was that?

[@Mooseman327]

A Descent into the Maelstrom.

[@TimeLord1987]

Soul-sucking, agency-negating structuralism. Another thing, one cannot be free of value judgements. If a modern philosopher would tell you that he is simply making observations free of value judgements, then he is lying to you, thinking you someone on whom a particular reality can be imposed.

[@DaviRenania]

Is McLuhan a structuralist?

[@patrygar5533]

Naturally the post-structuralist fails to critique on the grounds of whether or not something presents any truth propositions (or has utility). Seeking instead to weave it into oppression narratives.

[@mostlydead3261]

I dont think it is fair to call him a structuralist and he certainly wouldn't be called so in any precise use of that label.. but I get why ud get that idea from this talk..

[@mostlydead3261]

look into Reza Jorjani's Prometheism.. he is the true heir to McLuhan's mystical techne-affirming vision..

[@camdencapps6894]

The end of the social dilemma Netflix documentary were one computer scientist described an idea that was popular in computer science were we are the code inside a giant computer really scared me and made me think of this interview

[@DevastationMtrsports]

Thanks so much for your hard work and these discussions.. symbolism FTW

[@ChaseyBearMagnanimity]

Connect with Joseph Farrell's The Tower of Babel Moment.

[@mostlydead3261]

yup.. tower of babel was the true expression of promethean spirit.. we will push and try again..

[@izidorobaltazar907]

Even though the guest is bit awkward it was amazing interview! I enjoyed the first part about Ellul as well. I'm glad you kept the proverbial over-throwing of the oppressor in form of a phone.

[@ConcernedNetizen]

Excellent precise of McLuhan's probes! Christian has a lot of great, resonant takes. 18:10 "It happens at the less-territorial, and more-directly-experiential level through the media themselves, starting with the telegraph radio, etc. and others and so now computer, so that becomes the primary reality, actually, of how we experience even ourselves: through these reflections of these extensions. Just look at smartphones. They've become a new organ that we've had for a dozen years and our self, our very-identity is completely centered in it now. If someone loses their phone, their face, their public face. And that's why we've come back to a shame culture, as opposed to a guilt culture, which was more of the Gutenberg Galaxy and the alphabet. We've come back to oral conditions where the worst thing that can happen to you is to lose face, to bec ancelled, to not have a good reputation in your immediate [community]... in your village which is now the global village."

[@jarlnicholl1478]

A title like that and no Videodrome soundtrack playing in the background? For shame!

[@jayo9191]

(1/2) Hey there @jonathanPageau - around minute 44:00 when you are talking about the parasitic nature of the ‘Agregore’ (the monsters created by zuck & Dorsey) - you then in the next moment reverse your sentiments on the ‘Agregore’ NOT being parasitic in nature because “it feeds off of our energy”...if that is not parasitic, what is? I didn’t hear your guest respond and I wondered if you cleared up your thoughts on our digital mediums being a “parasitic Agregore”?

[@ConcernedNetizen]

At 19:52 Jonathan summarizes by saying that "already by the '60s" McLuhan was seeing the effects of electric media and the retribalization. Everyone makes this mistake with McLuhan at first, but it's one that's necessary to get past: the effects were being noticed by the Symbolist poets in the late 1800s! The radio had tribalized Germany in the '30s, for instance. McLuhan, as a man "bogged down" in English Literature studies for twenty years, is very, very late to the game in perceiving the effects. He only seems advanced, or to be anticipating/presaging something new to people who can't see their environment, and thus can't separate the embodied 'human scale' from the narcisstically-inflating (or masochistically-diminishing) distentions of being by technology-which is most people. He seems prophetic now because the effects are so accute-so far-gone-that they're exceedingly obvious to nearly everyone. McLuhan's "rear view mirror" probe is intended to explain why it is that most people, up until very recently, couldn't see what has been going on since beginning 170 years ago with the invention of the telegraph (and why, before then, most people besides Cerventes, Shakespear, Pope, and Vico couldn't see what the printing press has done to people). Mallarmé and Baudelaire are where one looks for first deep diagnoses for today's milieu.

[@jaredemry170]

That's the common disconnect in people. The obvious is ignored and then discussed in a highly abstract manner - the abstract description is then mistaken as being the thing in itself and when the obvious finally grows it comes down like a hammer.

[@markocms]

We are microbes in the belly of the beast... Only one way out: pray to and follow Saint Margaret of Antioch.

[@jayo9191]

(2/2) also @jonathanpageau Your guest’s response, instead of pushing us into a space of suggested physical action to take; orienting us - he seems to divert into a realm of relativity by responding “because it’s not individuated it’s invulnerable - it’s viral” - as if we can’t do anything but watch it grow, develop and shift off of our movements; operating as nodes. What do you make of that? Are these responses sufficient enough to empower ourselves as individuals (small collectives) or just enmesh us further into “awe” as spectators, increasing viewership (power) of these digital beasts?

[@MHAFOOTBALL]

Driven by sensory perception and focus on surfaces. See father Maximos Constas and his Tale of the two trees.

[@Mooseman327]

This guy really knows his stuff but his struggles to express his (and McLuhan's) ideas in the English language was frustrating. Perhaps, if a similar situation occurs in the future, he can speak in his native French and someone could create English subtitles for the video. I think we will get more nuance and depth, and travel more quickly, if translation is utilized.

[@The_Ladder_Perspective]

Would help x10000 to cut out the ehhhhhs in this video, it is a barrier to understanding him especially for people short on time

[@007MSU2002]

Is light a particle or wave or both?

[@notaboutit3565]

@jaffa 360 uncreated or created?

[@mosesgarcia9443]

This one is short circuiting my brain. Did he just say that our consciousness is a medium? So the phone is an extension of our consciousness. And extension that is now controlled by corporations. 😲😲😲😲😲😲

[@camdencapps6894]

What do the symbols on the guest’s shirt represent?

[@astrogumbo]

Anybody read Manly Hall lil book on Revelation? 😁 could this be a Gnostic setup?

[@LyubomirIko]

Yeah give some info

[@KoiinaCup]

This is what the New Age movement has been morphing into ... the fragmented beliefs seemingly from every single religion in existence (but curiously only the sweet stuff), the spread and acceptance of it through the electric medium ...

[@KoiinaCup]

@Bob Bobbertson This is the reason I believe the death of Christ on the cross was significant in that the responsibility of salvation transitioned from the state to the individual ... problem is, we have destroyed the foundation that would help us safely navigate the current world and the malevolent forces that are clearly out to devour souls ... Luke 6: 47-48 Everyone who comes to me and hears my words and does them, I will show you what he is like: he is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when a flood arose, the stream broke against that house and could not shake it, because it had been well built. ...... what we lack is the foundational and absolute truths and the sea of deception that is arising will either swallow us or reject us .. the latter being the best-case scenario

[@KoiinaCup]

@Bob Bobbertson From a totally Christian perspective, I have to disagree with that. Only through Jesus Christ is salvation possible. Yes, everyone is given a chance at salvation ... everyone ... on that we agree ... but it is very clear in the scripture that if one was to turn away from this chance of salvation, it is not guaranteed. A chance at salvation does not guarantee it ... The guarantee is in the acceptance of it and the repentance of one's sins ...

[@TheLibran1]

@Bob Bobbertson "The mystery schools are dead." LOL ok, I will tell the many active ones I am aware of to close the curtain and stop the theatrics then.

[@TheLibran1]

@Bob Bobbertson "And how many of the multiple(?!?) mystery schools you participate in haven't had their secrets made public?" More than a few! "The old hats didn't like the internet". We like it just fine. :P Thelema is one system out of many, good luck. But if you have such a simplistic view I think you ought to work on The Virtue of Discernment which is Malkuth. Suggest picking up James Eshelmans "The Magical & Mystical System of the AA" if you insist. As for "the books are all there". Not usually no, even for example The Golden Dawn, there is still quite a bit of historical info missing for the Outer Order even if there is "enough" for a smart person to initiate into the current it with for example the Cicero's Self-Initiation into The Golden Dawn. In both cases, the AA and GD as well as others, not only are there papers missing but there is an enormous amount of oral tradition and hands on training missing which is really best done person to person. If you do find an experienced person, consider trying not to be a know it all wanker when you do ask them a question.

[@TheLibran1]

@Bob Bobbertson I also am on 4chan, 8kun, reddit, surf b-ok.org and academia.edu. Yet I still am aware and have access to many documents that are not online, or if online, are not accessable publically. There is still quite a bit missing. Not to mention, many mistakes in printed books and a lack of context as to what material is important. Practice may be important, but understanding how to do the practice is also important as are the results and the possible pitfalls. Much of which, again, is not in books - or when it is so, scattered in such a fragmentary way and among different authors that it would be hard to perceptually piece them together. If you are assuming you will be dead by 50, you will likely be dead before you put the puzzle together. This is just the reality and I am "speaking" this in a neutral tone of voice.

[@symbolicmeta1942]

Going to have to look for his writing…. Even at double speed the stuttering was way too disruptive to keep focused…. Ended up having my mind wander non-stop because of the stuttering and filler noises

[@yuiopoli9601]

Where is the original music soundtrack from?

[@teunohooijer6788]

If you mean the intro it's the final line in the description

[@FortYeah]

On the collective brain expanding through the universe, looks like Dune and De Chardin - his omega concept - were on the same page..!

[@mostlydead3261]

yup.. McLuhan was influenced by de Chardin..

[@FortYeah]

@@mostlydead3261 Thanks for the tip!

[@haadidave]

Great chat! There's a way that seems right, but we need to look again and again.

[@joanofarc33]

They speak of the singularity. Read Stephen King’s “The Cell”, looks like he was unto something.

[@paoloantinozzi281]

This is a very interesting topic but awfully explained. You should tell us personally .

[@KENTUCKYUSA1]

Yes, please, Jonathan, interpret this for us. I am lost.

[@ConcernedNetizen]

Okay I had to take a break but have finished the rest of the video. Very provocative conversation guys. The perceptions of an egregore, monster or leviathan as encapsulating the current zeitgeists echo an approach McLuhan tried in his unpublished 1947 'Typhon in America: Guide to Chaos'. I've my own private copy, so I'll share some deets. It's very important to know the context here. 'Typhon' is broken into four parts, each named for a different ancient God. The first is 'Know How or Daedelus', and this is the book on machines (and what we now call simulation) dictating arts, education, media content, and otherwise normalizing all of society into feedback loops based on polling, audiance testing, and sociological and marketing studies. This is how the monster is "made", so to speak. The second book is 'Sex and Technology or Pasiphae and the Minotaur.' (go look up that myth! or don't). It's about how people merge into and become the machine... become "Mechanical Brides", as a total rewrite of the book would eventually be called. Sex and Death become spectacle, taking it out of people's considerations of their own lives in the sanitary "cradle-to-grave" machine of commercialized hospitals and funeral homes (with lots of fun in the middle, of course). The third book is 'Jitterbugs of the Absolute or Dionysus'. This chapter is more philosophical and sensory. Monism. The speed of life after Futurism glorifed constant movement. Race cars and crazy dances and roller coasters and constant destruction of the continuity of time by indulgence in constant disconnected nows. Psychological alienation and infantization. The fourth book is 'Sixty Million Mama's Boys or Typhon', wherein he adds up the results in rather controversial terms. The destruction of gender categories as roles merge and "father" characters become laughing-stocks in comics like Dagwood in Blondie or various radio shows like Ozzie and Harriet. This all draws on what Wyndham Lewis (contemporary of Joyce, Eliot, and Pound-and of most influence on McLuhan) wrote of in his 'The Art of Being Ruled' and 'Time and Western Man'. Smothering, sentimental, molly-coddling pedagogy in schools instead of masters of a topic demonstrating the breadth of its lessons through performances of their mastery. What results is Typhon, whose story as retold by Sir Francis Bacon opens the book: www.bartleby.com/82/2.html Typhon *is* the runaway monster you guys are describing, and it was loose in the 1940s on account of "The Global Village" of the radio environment. TV hadn't come along yet. McLunan's prescription in the book is a return of rigourous discussion and detachment, emotional control, etc. so as to gain critical faculties to bring back Mercury, the god of eloquence, such that on a one-to-one level each person might be talked back into reason. In other terms, the restoration of the masculine role to balance the greatly exploited amplification of the femimine principle. Now, that last sentence is obviously objectionable, and note well that McLuhan completely abandoned gendered language for basically the rest of his life, with the exception of analyzing celebrities like Tiny Tim. My point is: McLuhan moved well past that perception of the situation 70 years ago! This is because the communication infrastructure which serves as the collective "nervous system" for such a collective mind is now *the content* of the new environment, which was the software of TV for him, but today for us is the private hardware of the personal microcomputer which contains software as its content. The monster is mechanical-Our software environment is only under the control of centralizing forces like Facebook and Twitter because people *don't know anything about computers* , and thus don't own them or control them-they let them be programmed. The threads binding today's tribes are extremely high level and tenuous. I get into this a lot deeper in my last video, my "McLuhanMashup" video with Gerry, check it out. The point is, if you study the maelstrom, you'll realize that this perception of mass minds is basically *the last* of the worries facing the contemporary person. McLuhan's admonition to study the media was serious. That means understanding the full computer stack, and the communities which make up *and make* the internet as a whole. The internet pre-Social media is important. Free software culture is important. Hacker culture is important. The work at MIT is important. Understanding the computer stack. Understanding cybernetics. Understanding how computers in schools were subverted from teaching programming the '80s to teaching word processing and spreadsheets in the 90s. Understanding how science fiction created a cyberspace aesthetic to render getting lost in infinite digital and simulated content *cool* , rather than reveal its deleterious effects. Whatever is being said or done by whatever random internet-cultures are becoming social cultures in the "Global Theater" (which McLuhan said had replaced the Global village by the late 60s) of LARPers and NPCs is of lesser importance than understanding what people *don't* know about computers. Only after understanding every step of what has changed technologically since McLuhan died in 1980 will the lineaments of culture at large be discernible. Until then, talk of hive mind monsters is rear-view mirror and counterproductive-soon to evaporate into the chaos as it sinks to the bottom of the maelstrom. Okay. Thank for reading my TED Talk. Love the content guys!

[@TheLibran1]

Subscribed! :)

[@annoybot]

Bas C. van Fraassen, in Philosophy of Science, has done pioneering work on the aspect of: creating Instruments to find what we want to see. This necessarily excludes [near-infinitely] other phenomena, other [near-infinitely] ways/angles of interfacing with the selected focus (via goal-directed Instruments), and [near-infinitely] other phenomena for alternative synthesis/yields (perhaps think of color mixing, recipe ingredients, order-of-operations, resonance [and, inversely, vacuums], etc. Here are (what appears to be) two of his most-accessible articles, distillations of "the work" at issue. via Constructive Empiricism www.princeton.edu/~fraassen/abstract/docs-publd/CE_Now.pdf via Structure: Its Shadow and Substance www.princeton.edu/~fraassen/abstract/StructureBvF.pdf Roberto Unger, in Critical Legal Theory, has argued, perhaps well, how selective inclusion/exclusion of phenomena, and outcomes-related procedural rules, function in a similar fashion to van Fraassen's concerns on Instrumentality. Herbert Marcuse, in Art (and philosophy of), may have similar tracking around There Is No Alternative. If I had to toss a chip on the roulette table, I might say the end-game in this One Culture power-paradigm is not just controlling access, narrative, procedure, imagination & freedom, but to eliminate all traces (or evidence) that there ever-was any alternative. One self-defeating aspect in this is: to the degree this Control seeks/approaches fixation (like a cornerstone, an unchanging reference), it increases in similarity its aspect-like/of . . . Truth. And, of course, a truth which has no Source . . . other than itself (increasing myopia) . . . standing in reference to Truth as part of Creation, would maybe be like our planet saying to rest of the known universe, "I am the center of everything, and the ultimate arbitrer and instantiation of Intelligence and Efficacy." Or, put another way, if our human bodies are comprised mostly of water, and water were an aspect of the Divine, one could expect an inversion of the Divine to have an absence of water. The effect of "holy water" on "the undead" in our mythologies is worth contemplating maybe. ☘ Edit: I'd advise caution for anyone (outside of clear/unequivocal Vocational calling/imperative) from seeking answers here, via intellectual excursions, with the hope of "reasonable discussions" and "education" being solutions. The closer one gets to truth/resolution with this beast, the more it shape-shifts and/or changes-territory - like same-pole charged-magnets approaching eachother. Those who will not elect to participate in gardening / farming / sustainability . . . have easily-seen outcomes. Our work is living, in multiple/overlapping generations - a full-time job at the minimum.

[@MrTzarBomb]

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh ehhhhh

[@TheJaketone]

Be an anadromist.

[@LyubomirIko]

What this means? migratory fish?

[@TheJaketone]

@@LyubomirIko yes, it means to swim against the stream.

[@LyubomirIko]

@@TheJaketone with the Artificial Intelligence just behind the horizon I doubt this is even possible anymore...

[@mattalluisi3954]

[ Uni-bomber] has entered the chat

[@mostlydead3261]

uncle ted is the bestest uncle..

[@benrobin111]

Where did the original video go?

[@ocrancienthistory3326]

Roy isn't a fluent communicator, is he?

[@sjorsvanhens]

Classic pseud

[@Brad-RB]

Technology is upstream from culture. Tribalism is only one facet of behavioral sink.

[@tm27field]

Nothing against the guy but it’s hard to understand him so it’s hard to get through this video.

[@Mateo-et3wl]

feel like i just listened to two stoned freshmen in a dorm for an hour. Comments are just as bad. McLuhan is a horrible writer so i don't know why i expected more clarity in a video about his ideas

[@colly7963]

The most boring speaker padding every 2nd or 3rd word with errrr.. .... ugh, couldn't listen to more than 2 minutes.

[@averageamerican8163]

English isnt his main language... I understand your annoyance but you should be more generous.

[@colly7963]

@@averageamerican8163 That is not the cause of his constant use of fillers. I teach 2nd language English speakers and most of them do not fill their talking with ums and ers. It's a bad habit that lecturers and public speakers need to iron out instead of inflicting them on their audience. But most people simply defer to them as authorities.

[@The_Ladder_Perspective]

Couldn’t agree more. Wish they’d cut out the 15 minutes of ehhhhhhhh

[@stanemtummy2544]

Gutenberg-focused-Left hemisphere? / acoustic-holistic-Right hemisphere? cfr. Iain McGilchrist's The Master and his Emissary EDIT: The neo-acoustic does lack somewhat of a Right hemisphere overview today, as you mention at the end...

[@DaddysDollxo]

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmahhhhh It’s so hard to listen he can’t really speak