Does hand trapping work in a real fight? Full article about this topic here: selfdefensetuto...
Пікірлер: 376
@BigHossHackworth5 жыл бұрын
Throwing in the occasional "pak sao" has really helped my boxing. Thanks for the idea.
@bougeac5 жыл бұрын
Great clip, I’m a wing chun instructor and wholeheartedly agree with you. The fundamental problem with “trapping range” is that it’s a manufactured range that only really works if both fighters agree to stay there. It’s a blink of the eye between punching and clinching and the compound trapping drills (that I used to do) simply fail to translate to real time exhanges. I have a lot of time for pummeling/arm dragging/two on ones and good solid clinch training. If you understand it, there’s actually a lot of clinch fighting in wing chun which makes a lot of sense when you are properly taught the forms. I think the reason a lot of people in WC spend an inordinate amount of time is because the majority don’t spar in a meaningful way which would give them a better yardstick of what is actually going to work. Lots of great functional trapping in Greco imo.
@streetwisetactics5 жыл бұрын
Do you get hate from other Chuners?
@cbcstudio8465 жыл бұрын
well said, I totally Overstand
@tyleroldham46765 жыл бұрын
Well thought out comment. I would like to see how you've adapted wc I bet it's interesting.
@bougeac5 жыл бұрын
I get a lot of prospective students who’ve come to watch my class that scratch their heads because they can’t “see” the movements they expect because of their diet of Ip Man movies and bullshit KZbin clips.
@leeturner80233 жыл бұрын
Yes, if the guy can punch with the speed of Joe Calzaghe, then you’re going to need bullet time perception speed / reflexes to use trapping hands against a combo of shots that take a second to execute. Perhaps it’s possible but would prob take years of real time drilling to condition the neurological system.
@AllAhabNoMoby5 жыл бұрын
But but but... I saw Ip Man do it to a world champion boxer!
@SelfDefenseTutorials5 жыл бұрын
Well damn, I have no counter-argument to that!
@adnanadil44985 жыл бұрын
I don't want to hear "but"- boxing is sport and sports don't work in real fights, that is why traditional MA artists don't fight with combat athletes... they don't want to hurt them. :)
@eliqk3qt2rg5v5 жыл бұрын
@@adnanadil4498 Boxing may be a combat sport but boxing and other combat sports definitely work in a real fight. And that's why traditional martial arts don't fight combat athletes? There's been traditional martial artists who fought combat athletes and there's combat athletes who've trained in traditional martial arts. Plus there's some traditional martial arts that have sport applications....as in that particular art you can compete in tournaments or whatever.
@adnanadil44985 жыл бұрын
@@eliqk3qt2rg5v , thanks for the info! Tonight I will sleep better! ;)
@eliqk3qt2rg5v5 жыл бұрын
@@adnanadil4498 ? Whats with the winky face?
@gungriffen4 жыл бұрын
Actually, this is how I was taught to use Wing Chun. It was always stressed to me rolling hands is training but no one will ever roll hands with you in a fight. I was taught to create a gap to be able to chain punch or leg kick and then just deliver as many punches to the head as fast as possible till you've over whelmed them. If your first or second trap doesn't work break contact, back up, and wait for another hole. My dad was a Repoman (who completed the entire Wing Chun system from Master Hong in Houston) and taught me later. I've become a Fugitive Recovery Agent and so far Wing Chun hasn't failed me yet but he stressed, "The point of Wing Chun is to create a hole, bridge the gap, and overwhelm them as fast as possible." Even the ground stuff he shows at 3:15 I was taught to do just that but also press my knee onto their arms to pin them down semi permanently so I can start to chain punch. I don't know if he figured it out later or was told how to use it from the start but he use to rag on Wing Chun practitioners that they were to hung up on rolling with the other person. I think a serious issue everyone has with Wing Chunks from the users to the watchers is they expect it to look like the training in a real fight. The phone booth/toilet joke does have so merit though. Sometimes the fight is between to parked cars or a corner booth of a restaurant and such. Sometimes there is nowhere to go.
@honigdachs.5 жыл бұрын
Agree. Trapping works as a simple, transitory motion. Sweep the front hand away / peel off the high guard ---> strike, or slip / short parry and strike, like McGregor does. Also arm/ wrist pulls. Seen all that stuff in K1, MMA, Okinawan Karate, Muay Thai. But the sticky/push hand stuff I think is more a sensitivity drill than something that's actually supposed to be applied in a continuous succession. Nobody's gonna square off and play that game with you.
@jamescollier73603 жыл бұрын
I agree and disagree, though no one is going to willingly square off with you, it is your responsibility to control your opponent when you see the opening, this gentleman didn’t show a continuous flow of motion to maintain control of the opponent. For instance if someone lunges to grab and you rip and pull the person’s arm and you pause and or don’t follow up with maybe a guillotine choke then you give the opponent an opportunity to strike or grapple you but if you quickly apply a guillotine or arm bar then you maintain control. MMA is not the standard for street fighting because street fights have no predictable range because it ain’t like your opponent is going to start 50 feet away from you and let you know he wants to fight you from 50 feet like an octagon fight, he or she maybe in enough range to grab you in which subduing the opponent is much less riskier then backing up and striking.
@Modulus05 жыл бұрын
That is a very good explanation. Instead of just discounting, actually showing fallacies and also where it can/might work .
@jamescollier73603 жыл бұрын
The whole system works when applied correctly because JKD is supposed to be formless but decisive and deadly, no wasted motion or pauses in action, only aggressive flow until the opponent is subdued, he used MMA as a standard but MMA guys will allow themselves to get slammed to apply a choke hold but that’s because they know they are landing on a mat but in a street fight it may be concrete and then what? Me personally I would like to train for the worse case scenarios but I’m taking the easiest road to victory if possible and JKD implies that once in range.
@minasz5 жыл бұрын
Inosanto, Bruce Lees student says it best. Trapping is more accidently than going for it. Bruce Lee threw most wing chun out at the end of his jkd phylosophy and kept mostly the pak sao and focussing on boxing, wrestling, jiu jiutsu and kicking arts, seen in his books and drawings.
@linusverclyte49885 жыл бұрын
And yet he makes his students do stupid forms and waste many hours doing intricate trapping drills that hardly ever work in reality. If he admits they are low chance techniques why bother training them so much? Ironically Dan Inosanto and a lot of his students did what Bruce Lee warned about: turning JKD into a classical mess of its own keeping forms and drills that aren't really functional. It seems history always repreats itself.
@TheChiconspiracy5 жыл бұрын
@130vibes To be fair, people like Inosanto correctly noticed that things Bruce Lee shunned, like Muay Thai, were incredibly effective and had a lot to offer.
@TheChiconspiracy5 жыл бұрын
@130vibes It's been awhile since I read it, but I remember he praised the "actual combat" element of it, but he claimed it wasn't "economical" or scientific, basically employing crude and basic techniques and strategies. Inosanto realized that wasn't true, and it had way more depth than Lee realized.
@Eternaprimavera735 жыл бұрын
@@linusverclyte4988 And yet he makes his students do stupid forms and waste many hours doing intricate trapping drills > yes, because it was Bruce Lee to overemphasize the trapping with his limited understanding of wing chun. Normally even in the worses wing chun clubs, people don't spend much time speaking about trapping like in JKD, because the Jun Fan Gung Fu for the most is the Bruce Lee's misunderstanding of wing chun. So true that in a book of one of Bruce's students, Yimm Lee, there are the description of possible trappings, which exist only if both use the centerline concept and the wing chun dynamics, but forgetting to say that. So he thought that you can trap whoever in the same way, which of course is wrong. In wing chun you do actions that maybe can eventually trap, like a boxer punch that miss the target and become clinch, but not searching for trapping in the 1st case, and not clinch as main strategy of boxing. Of course you cannot accidentally trap boxer who follow completely different trajectories with their punches, so you cannot INTERCEPT FISTS in that wing chun accidental way. He noticed that he couldn't trap boxers, but instead of saying that trapping was his wrong idea of wing chun ... well you know. And you are right, there are forms in the Jun Fan Gung Fu and in JKD. Bruce Lee created also his own form on the wooden dummy, still taught in JKD circles. They have just a different concept of form and in how to execute. As you say, at the end JKD is just the last new classical mess in which STUDENTS ARE TRAPPED.
@Eternaprimavera735 жыл бұрын
@130vibes I think he put some savate and some muay thay, something he saw bu that nobody taught to him. Then he took inspiration, which is OK, but we cannot say he knew these martial arts. He put also aikido locks in his tao of JKD, and he didn't sudy even aikido. Of course everybody see a muay thai match and understands that it has its own flavor and effectiveness, even if we are not Bruce Lee.
@wchart5 жыл бұрын
So, I'm a WC instructor with a fair amount of experience in Judo, BJJ, and full contact Karate. I also work in a job where violence can occur regularly. I agree nearly 100%. Those long sequences are probably best for training, not combat. As an aside, WC is awesome in a clinch and in the guard. It just seems like nobody teaches it that way. Everybody wants to play patty cake instead.
@daveallen53423 жыл бұрын
I'll like it anyway. I d k
@wchart3 жыл бұрын
@@daveallen5342 Then that's awesome! The most important part of your training is you. If you enjoy what your doing then keep doing it, man. Honestly, I like it too.
@daveallen53423 жыл бұрын
@@wchart You're 100 I like Kung Fu not just boxing ... Thai I would like but Kung Fu has more lines in it thai has a lot of good fighting examples. Sometimes I do a thai switch kick stance then throw a Kung Fu side kick instead of a round lol. But I'm really a reality style reality-ish mma style I'm just not sport style. If I furthered my training it would be in Bjj judo or wing chun. I already use Shaolin with wing chun and jkd (jun fan) boxing Bjj judo aikido Bjj and even a lot of chin na fingers stuff like I'm better than other people in the chin na wing chun aikido world. It really is what you choose to develop. I don't know any cool breakdance capoeira or anything. I am closer to Kung Fu in the ways I fight than boxing or thai But I'm very close to street style also ... And cqc reality. I absolutely love how detailed Kung Fu is yet ... It's not because they forget to fight a lot. Sure I watch fights. But I fought a lot growing up. I never forgot. I actually beat a thai/ground fighter that was NINETY POUNDS heavier with a bunch of ground and pound for THIRTY MINUTES on a farm who messed with me real fight and that was BEFORE I learned ANY martial arts. So.
@aceventura22373 жыл бұрын
Is wc worth the time to learn ? I’m looking more for street survival. Don’t wanna be beat by muy Thai or boxing. The kick seems good.
@daveallen53423 жыл бұрын
@@aceventura2237 it depends there's tactical theres self defense there's sport ... Striking .. ranges ... Grappling in the way of arm grappling arts clinch grappling arts cloth arts finger arts ... Your question didn't single out just one area you said thai ... One thing and street ... Potentially several things etc. One thing or many things ... What works best for you takes a little intuition.
@David-wq3dq4 жыл бұрын
When I was introduced to trapping I was told pretty much exactly this, so yes it does work when you don't expect it to be something it's not. Trapping is about getting a barrier out of the way so you can either strike or clinch. Even if it's done in one step it's still trapping. I strongly believe when it's practiced in a chain it's not meant to imply you will be in a situation where you will need to chain, but building instinct as to which trap to use depending on where you find yourself.
@desamster4 жыл бұрын
Your comment makes a lot of sense 👍
@lightlysal4 жыл бұрын
Yes. It's a training exercise, not a real fighting technique. Much like the One-Inch Punch.
@jamescollier73603 жыл бұрын
In my opinion the chain is only necessary for someone with the instinct to remove the block but if I trap a punch I’m looking for a choke hold or arm bar submission.
@genezysgoncalves59373 жыл бұрын
Thats not how you train with a circunstancional skill. People train in a chain because someone years ago told them to do so it would be applied this way. When I train boxing or muay thai I train the way it should be used and not in a chain.
@Taekwon-Brando3 жыл бұрын
@@genezysgoncalves5937 that’s like saying shadowboxing/wrestling is useless when in reality it’s the best form of solo training shrug 🤷♂️
@stevenmascarenhas70385 жыл бұрын
Trapping works to an extent. The drills practiced in styles like Wing Chun are there to teach you how to deal with different situations, develop hand speed& co-ordination, build sensitivity and learn how to adapt. Learn the skills & patterns but don’t expect to use the exact same patterns and structures in a real fight.
@jazzcama5 жыл бұрын
I have a background in WingChun, and I think what is said here is 100% correct. But, as is also said, trapping works.... sometimes. It is a transitory technique, and that's how I always understood it during training. The way you train, with various punches following each other, is more a way to train you in recognizing all the situations in which you might be able to use this one technique in just the right situation. Rarely was I able to chain more than 1 trapping defense after another in sparring matches. But that one technique might just the one that allows you to interrupt an attack/connect that one blow, on that intermediate distance WC has made its playground. So, bottom line, like just about every discussion between various styles and techniques: there is a time and place and situation for each martial arts technique out there. I've benefited from my background in WC during sparring matches in my current style Japanese JiuJitsu. Investigate everything and keep whatever works for you. There are no superior styles or techniques, there are only superior (or lucky) fighters who manage to execute a technique that perfectly fits the situation. So yeah, great video. Keep up the good work.
@YamamotoKazuo4 жыл бұрын
make it simple, take Bruce Lee's words" Wing Chun is most effective in the bathroom". You can go wrong with what Bruce Lee says
@integratedfightingarts5 жыл бұрын
I personally think the schools create the differences in martial arts more than the arts themselves do.
@streetwisetactics5 жыл бұрын
That's it, you can have a base art but that can evolve with time
@doubleb222able4 жыл бұрын
I've always looked at trapping as another training tool, like focus mitts. The best boxers in the world never hit 15-20 hit combos, yet all practice long combos on mitts. The TBA curriculum has long combos no one ever hits. But these are all training tools to condition responses. What does trapping teach? If you're trying to hit the person and they create a barrier, just remove the barrier and keep attacking.
@Mantisboxers3 жыл бұрын
Good video! Dead on. Consistent flaws in wing chun chi sau and taiji tui shou - drills used to gain a skill were cemented in place and used treated as the predominant fighting methods of those styles.
@gfajiujitsu5 жыл бұрын
Wing Chun is the undisputed king when it comes to defending yourself in a phonebooth or public toilet.
@gfajiujitsu5 жыл бұрын
@@coldlessons haha that's the joke buddy ;)
@streetwisetactics5 жыл бұрын
Lol
@streetwisetactics5 жыл бұрын
Muay Thai
@markJones-yz6ke5 жыл бұрын
Or public bus!!(believe me,it works!)-on a bus!!
@giovannisoave96345 жыл бұрын
How do you know?
@tomreed57435 жыл бұрын
I have used pak sao, lop sao , bong sao and fok sao in real fights , but it’s always once and it’s always brief , this guy is spot on .
@michaelw78675 жыл бұрын
He apparently thinks that trapping is used continuously in a fight because this is often how it is seen in movies and because people practice it in a continuous fashion. But actually, it's intended to used instantly, exactly as he describes it being used in MMA. He just doesn't understand the difference between training form to develop the skill, and fighting application of the skill. It's a common error that people make regarding many things in traditional styles. Mistaking training form for combat application is like saying push-ups don't work in a real fight. The push-up is a strength building exercise, not a fighting form. Trapping hands is an exercise to train you to instantly and instinctively trap, hit, and flow with the opponent's movement, not to just repetitively stand there doing the same thing over and over again as you would in practice. Sometimes even modern day students of these styles don't seem to understand these distinctions. Much has been lost of the traditional styles in the transition to modern times.
@TheChiconspiracy5 жыл бұрын
Did William Cheung and Emin Boztepe forget those fundamentals too? Not much trapping when those two Wing Chun masters fought...
@michaelw78675 жыл бұрын
@@TheChiconspiracy Watch the fight video more closely. Even on the ground, a majority of punches were blocked by trapping. Mutual trapping was why the fight went nowhere and both men walked away without serious injury.
@TheChiconspiracy5 жыл бұрын
@@michaelw7867 Trapping... nothing like taught by wing chun, but more like amateurish wrestling. Not a pak sao, tan sao, lop sao, or fook sao in sight.
@michaelw78675 жыл бұрын
@@TheChiconspiracy You see wrestling, I see trapping. The techniques look different on the ground, but the arms were trapped, and counter punching was attempted but trapped in turn.
@superfoot534 жыл бұрын
I agree with you 100%. What he is doing is just the form.This guy here talking about trapping in combat is so pathetic.
@SoldierDrew5 жыл бұрын
Wing Tsun kunfa, as taught by sifu Keith Fain of Clarksville TN, trapping and bridging worked well in prison cells for dealing with incoming punches at extreme close quarters where lack of space prevents the sports method of bouncing in & out or circling the opponent/attacker. It was merely 'one' tool to deal with incoming strikes from larger, stronger, men so one bridge incoming arms to quickly get into grappling/jujitsu/judo range. Standing in one spot doing multiple trapping sequences in real combat...never happens. Standing in extreme close quarters in a tiny prison cell trying to use ring boxing or kick boxing...never happens. Especially against men much larger, stronger, than oneself whom have grown up being beating since childhood by grown men with bare knuckles, in dysfunctional families or cultures. But Wing Tsun Kunfa, as taught by Keith Fain sifu, never stands in one spot trapping like most Wing Chun styles. It utilizes a forward pressure, step-drag, fencing method of attacking the opponent's legs and hips with one's own hips/legs, constantly shuffling forward, off balancing them the moment that you bridge or trap their first two strikes to achieve clench range. In a ring, cage, rec. yard or parking lot where they can use evasive footwork it's not effective against skilled boxer or kick-boxer where they can run from your simultaneous high/low forward pressure which facilitates kuzushi. In a prison cell, the ability to use forward pressure to bridge, trap or pass the first two incoming strikes or attempts to grab & hold facilitates temporarily hemming up their weapons (arms) just long enough for you to attain clench range to transition to Wrestling, Judo or JiuJitsu to drop them onto the concrete or bounce their head off the concrete wall or steel bunk & steel toilet jack. In the pseudo-street fight with open space, a sporting ring or any open area Wing Tsun KunFa takes a back seat to western counter-boxing methods. In a confined, extremely small, concrete and steel prison cell as one finds in U.S. prisons where combat is pretty much toe-to-toe and no room for evasive footwork Wing Tsun KunFa (kunfa not kungfu) as taught by Keith Fain sifu is effective for bridging and temporarily trapping the first two attacks so one can attain clench range and transition to grappling attacks. #DontGetIntoStreetConflicts #PrisonIsHellOnEarth #GladiatorSchool #WhenHellBecomesYourHomeByAuthorNCognito.
@blackpowderkun5 жыл бұрын
How about trapping followed by kicks or grapple.
@SelfDefenseTutorials5 жыл бұрын
Yes, but it depends on what we mean by 'trapping'. If trapping means a single trap/cover/tie-up/clinch then yes, I agree. But if trapping means an extensive sequence of moves - pak sao, lop sao, bill jee, pak sao for example - then I think it hardly ever works!
@cagedraptor5 жыл бұрын
Bang one move is all you need. So Trapping does work. Linking attacks don't work no matter what style your talking about. You train the links so that if one link isn't strong you move to another link. the thing is, is that each person is different and so are opponents so a paticular tech. works on one person wont on another. The key is to learn a good hand full and adjust during conflict to find the one Bang, one move that will work. So Trapping does work, just not in those long lines or links.
@dalmatianroyalist93265 жыл бұрын
As a WC guy, I agree.
@leeturner80233 жыл бұрын
Yeh, I recall my wing chun training early 90s, and was thinking (even at 14), ‘I don’t feel this would work against a very fast, powerful puncher’. We generally don’t have the perception speed to deal with a flurry of punches that take a split second to land. That was my concern.
@RobRivShowsLive013 жыл бұрын
Great Eye Opening Information, Just Great!!!
@gavinvonmeyer37465 жыл бұрын
Bruce Lee always demonstrated in his fight scenes when to use Trapping & Win Chun very effectively for short explosive bursts and then boom with a kick. Or, like when he had Chuck Norris' back against the wall.
@deceptivepanther5 жыл бұрын
Debunking videos had their time when KZbin was new. Surely that time has passed: we all know what the UFC is and plenty of BJJ is itself quite esoteric. Nobody is disagreeing with this video's excellent content; but can we please stop framing things in terms of other people being wrong because BJJ is always right? It puts you in danger of simply repeating the same pattern of behavior of those you seek to criticise.
@TheMegaEggers5 жыл бұрын
Those were great times though, the nerds who did mystical martial arts in highschool always had an excuse when it was time to trade blows so it was nice to see them debunked with evidence.
@deceptivepanther5 жыл бұрын
@@TheMegaEggers Yeah, I agree: being able to see video from instructors the world over really changed the game.
@TheChiconspiracy5 жыл бұрын
@@TheMegaEggers It's still tremendously satisfying to watch someone standing on a mountain of untested dogma meet reality.
@IzzoWingChun2 жыл бұрын
Great video. MOST all Wing Chun does not know the "why" of trapping or the "how" to apply it. Reality seems to wake people up.
@Turtlesage-km9ef5 жыл бұрын
He brings up the hardest point to dispute, and what I think most martial arts have trouble answering, and that is distance control. I have done TKD, Kuk Sool Won in the past and now do Karate and BJJ and, honestly, none of them (even BJJ the way it usually taught) have a super effective way of controlling distance on the feet, that goes to wrestling and judo. The others are super specialized for very specific areas. I think its fair to say the issue with Wing Chun is that the optimum distance is barely present in any type of fight.
@SelfDefenseTutorials5 жыл бұрын
I would argue that boxing, kickboxing, muay thai and taekwondo are very good at controlling range on the feet within their rule sets. Start adding in clinching and it's really only MMA training that helps you with mixing the clinching and striking ranges
@Turtlesage-km9ef5 жыл бұрын
@@SelfDefenseTutorials very fair point about within the rulesets. I personally know the frustration of trying to point spar a guy who seems to have legs as long as I am tall. I agree about MMA. Do you think cross training is as effective a way to learn as a dedicated MMA?
@TheTails635 жыл бұрын
It all comes down to WHO is doing the technique.
@DamianProsa5 жыл бұрын
You're very right about the momentary nature of trapping, as well as the important role distance plays in its employment. Of course you won't see multiple trapping combos in quick succession. Why do people expect that? Like you don't see multiple spinning kicks Boyka style or the exact same 10 strike boxing combinations you do in practice. EVERYTHING is a one off movement. Every art's application goes back to the basics. 1 strike knockout. It's always the fundamentals that are shown in practical application. In training you make the fundamentals more complex to give you flow in training, to put multiple scenarios and options in one drill that works them all. The multiple trapping moves in rapid succession is a training drill. The application is just one of them, maybe two. Your objective is to hit, not to trap. You only trap momentarily when an obstacle obstructs you from hitting.
@lancepabon5 жыл бұрын
Movies...
@kuksoolwonninja5 жыл бұрын
Great video, I used to do wing chun, jkd, and lots of kung fu. So many people are still delusional when it comes to their real ability to apply their skills under pressure it's embarrassing. I think videos that really show you the reasons why something is realistic or not and not just say "this is bullshit just because I say so" are really important and help elevate the level of the martial arts as a whole. That being said the concepts, the mobility/movement training, flexibility benefits that came from traditional training, really helped speed up my progress in jiu-jitsu and kickboxing. Traditional arts and combat sports really do compliment each other if you have an open but discerning mind. The reason jiu jitsu players are good at discerning what works and what doesn't is that they do it every minute of every class/training session. For example, "why isn't this choke working? Well, it looks like there's too much space here so when I squeeze it doesn't close the gap, or my grips are of which causes the whole thing to go out the window, oh wait I can switch my position(s) and save this choke, time to switch to a different technique and catch them off guard, damn I'm off by an inch and now this lock is not working". That would go through a grapplers mind and be executed within seconds and I'm not over exaggerating. There is a constant phase of trial and error, where the margin of error gets smaller and smaller with every training session. This gives a very useful lens to look through for any martial arts when discerning how and why techniques work. Does it mean all jiu jitsu guys are right all the time about every martial art? Short answer is no. Nobody is right all the time. Going back to the contents of the video, this is exactly how I utilize trapping from xing yi and wing chun under pressure. I'll quick parry or pull an incoming punch to start off a striking combination or use it when I am in someone's guard for ground and pound, and it works pretty well against most people. Obviously, if you use it all the time, people will start to catch on and counter. Give it a try (or 100 tries realistically before you really get it).
@redsnflr Жыл бұрын
Vasily Lomachenko in boxing & Anderson Silva in MMA are two great examples of practical handtraps in combat sports, with The Spider having trained in Kung-Fu before & using it in his boxing fights too.
@jadeplanet3 ай бұрын
I think that Wing Chun is all about those once-off trapping movements as it always intends to end the fight quickly. It's also meant for spaces where movement would be not feasible, like when you waist deep in water, in a cramped space or on the ground.
@Rooted-Up3 жыл бұрын
Filipino martial arts usually attack in 3's. Every art strings along techniques off of the opponent's reaction. It's the mindset when training that matters. Mma isn't a street fight. Bjj isn't a street fight. Winning by any means necessary is a fight.
@Docinaplane5 жыл бұрын
Well said! I use those two basic WC moves in sparring, but that it. When in that range I go to boxing/karate striking.
@naturalhealthnews96373 жыл бұрын
Agreed. I train and teach JKD for over 20 years, 36 plus years in many arts, including BB's in Kempo/Jujitsu/TKD/Hapkido/Arnis, and certifications under multiple JKD instructors. I usually drop the long trapping sequences and use the short, entries into grappling, entries into combinations after the single use traps. We train the longer sequences for the sake of the "art" but in sparring, and fighting, it will most likely not appear. You have to remember most WC is training to fight/spar or train with another who will respond with WC. JKD seeks to respond to boxing, grappling, Thai Boxing, karate, Kali, Silat, so the traps will be short, to the point. Not a lot of trap, counter, trap, counter.
@alittlepuertoricanboy19935 жыл бұрын
One can just as easily say that the trapping isn't even lap sau but is actually karate's hikite, that still means nothing. Great video as always, Coaches Kestang and Yip. Can't wait for more!
@StudentInFrance5 жыл бұрын
Was about to mention Karate hikite, unfortunately it's only properly practiced in some old Okinawan styles. In modern Japanese styles it has devolved into a simple parry.
@safdarkh7865 жыл бұрын
Hikite is pulling hand
@alittlepuertoricanboy19935 жыл бұрын
@tmWasted You're taking something rhetorical that I said way too seriously and out of context, you're missing the point. The point was that fighting is fighting and some situations call for various things, including hand trapping. That doesn't mean it's Wing Chun or karate, it means it's fighting.
@edwardtsang7348 Жыл бұрын
That’s convincing. Thanks for the analysis!
@woffordswaymartialartschar55415 жыл бұрын
That's exactly right you're a very good teacher and very good very explanatory very similar to my style
@one-single-strike5 жыл бұрын
Of course is better to block like in a classic boxe, than to grape like in Wing Chun, but to pratictise Wing Chun thecniques frequently help in a fight. A complete martial artist to consider everything...
@matthewlawrence70565 жыл бұрын
Good video! Trapping as a tool is definitely interesting but not a tool to use all the time. Leo Fong with Chinese Trap boxing has boxing fundamentals with some trapping into boxing combos mixed in. Funny enough he was one of the dudes who trained Bruce Lee and made him move more towards boxing. It's one of my big criticisms of lots of FMA guys is that without blades the need for trapping is greatly reduced. Stick Grappling is almost always done poorly if taught at all. Most sparring you don't even have distance management and evasion either. I know this video was about empty hands fighting but the criticism is equally valid to lots of stickfighters
@worldclass645 жыл бұрын
I agree, single action traps you will see at times its compound trapping which you do not see .
@volodavolodovic47705 жыл бұрын
great explanation. very open-minded. the point related to traditional arts is that they were/are supposed to work in the context of aggression, which does not bother to be hidden (without feints).
@joebyrd91415 жыл бұрын
It works for me in kick boxing, so I hope it's a practice that dies and I'm one of the few that can apply. Makes no difference to me 🤣
@SelfDefenseTutorials5 жыл бұрын
When you say it works for you - do you mean isolated pak saos and lop saos here and there, or do you mean extensive 2, 3, 4 move trapping combos?
@TheChiconspiracy5 жыл бұрын
@@SelfDefenseTutorials When I did WC well over a decade ago, I was desperately hoping someone could make it work even in sparring against someone with even rudimentary boxing footwork. I'm still waiting.
@DamianProsa5 жыл бұрын
@@TheChiconspiracy Just posted a video on this, sparring with a Tae Kwon Do black belt. You might find it interesting. I'd love to hear what you think
@stevebrindle17244 жыл бұрын
I did 12 yrs of wing chun, 15 yrs of TKD and now train in Shotokan so i have good experience and i could not agree more with this. Trapping range is very temporary. Well said sir!
@TheLockon005 жыл бұрын
Awesome. I just had a super long debate with the guy who made that "Tony Fergusson uses Wing Chun in MMA" vid. Very fucking tedious. Glad you put this out there.
@berningsandwiches26625 жыл бұрын
Tony Ferguson uses trapping successfully in his fights.
@charlesdourado82924 жыл бұрын
I totally agree with everything you said it's one move hit and that's it
@JKDVIPER2 жыл бұрын
2:40 I like it! I do agree mostly.. one problem though.. you had said that the issue with trapping in a stand up is the play back n forth, but on the ground you say it works better.. logical fallacy.. here’s why.. Wing Chun is an attack art.. many are practicing.. many are demonstrating.. many are wrong.. that’s the issue.. truly we would attack your face or body.. we don’t wait for hands.. you’ll either be A. Blocking B. Backing up C. Deflecting but we wouldn’t wait for a punch like that.. what you’re referring too is KZbin WING CHUN .. stop by or we can talk sometime
@joesoap19604 жыл бұрын
Yeap...i agree with you
@Re-Destro5 ай бұрын
Thank you for this one. I'm also a Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do practitioner but do not teach trapping, I might show it only for historical purposes since I believe it doesn't work, so I teach more boxing oriented punching.
@markmessi90203 жыл бұрын
The best trap from wing Chun is ironically the bong sau. It's a strong elbow frame in boxing and is basically the same shit in wing Chun. Nobody ever talks about it but Silva and Poirier use this shit in their fighting alot
@lawrencedroman5 жыл бұрын
Wow! You are amazing. Thanks for clearing that up. I didn’t know you were an expert in Wing Chun too.
@donnchadhmcginley31535 жыл бұрын
Yes it works ..depending on circumstance
@AZTigerMMA4 жыл бұрын
Well said coach !!!!!!!!! During a crash maybe on the ground maybe - 10-20% of your “fight game “ keep it in mind
@metalbag88745 жыл бұрын
Thank you for this video, I've always been wondering about when trapping would work
@bluez4u24 жыл бұрын
If a person goes looking for a trap, then it will fail. People don't understand how wing chun works.
@chvhndrtntlr3482Ай бұрын
Yeah for me every traditional martial arts is kinda good in small part of their teaching, but unfortunately their practitioner forgot that they can't be the answer to all combat situation 1. Muaythai: good with powerful roundhouse, elbow, knee, and standing clinch, and sweep. Weak at boxing/punches, the defend since they stand too tall and too boxed, and they also not get used to high intensity attack 2. Boxing: good at punching head movement, evasion, footwork. Weak at everything else 3. BJJ: good at ground work, lock, choke, but not perfect at take down, boxing, kicking and anything else 4. Wingchun: good at traping while in constan close distance and attack at clinching range, bad at everything else 5. Karate: good at overall, bad at protecting the head and high intensity combat 7. Taekwondo: good at tricking with legs, bad at everything else 8. Capoeira: good at powerful spinning kick and feinting, bad at the techniques because it is too telegraphic. 9. Silat: good at neutralize the enemy, bad at fighting in legal condition 10. Wrestling, judo, sambo: good at take down opponent, bad at everything else 11. MMA: good at overall and the most close to rela life situation combat, but bad at detailing of the attack and defend in specific situation
@birage9885 Жыл бұрын
Many of these trapping drills are 'flow' drills, to get you to respond in micro-seconds to a strike, a block, or a trap being applied to you. It doesn't mean that it is going to go down that way in a fight. It is training to develop quickness, explosiveness, etc. Training isn't always suppose to replicate a real fight, it is there to train what to do in a real fight. Trapping does work. But, I agree that usually it is just a one trap move.
@lucanap16502 жыл бұрын
I see trapping like an exercise , It develops reflexes , speed and if you train to apply shock to unbalance the opponent even better solution. Trapping Is not a fight but each single sequenze could be a part of a fight depending on circunstances.
@linusverclyte49885 жыл бұрын
Nice explanation. I always found it strange that JKD incorporated much from functional styles like boxing and judo yet kept trapping as an extensive part of the curriculum at least in the Inosanto lineage. My guess is that it's mostly a marketing trick: something that sets them apart from other MMA-type schools. Great point about distance making it virtually impossible to do compound trapping. That being said if distance isn't available like in a confined space it could still be useful the same way as on the ground. What do you think?
@TheChiconspiracy5 жыл бұрын
Did Inosanto keep much trapping? I know Lee himself had dropped a lot of it by the end.
@Dan.504 жыл бұрын
Pretty sure Bruce would have eliminated it all together had he not passed so soon. But as to why so many kept it going? I'm guessing that it acts much like kata or forms in that it lets you keep milking your students while not really teaching them anything.
@Otherverse19 ай бұрын
What about if when they try to grab you move back and if they move back you advance? Doesnt seem unthinkable to imagine a scenario where someone is skillful within this range and able to seek and hold onto it. Or if they do quick engage and disengage over and over.
@Taekwon-Brando3 жыл бұрын
Trapping in Muay Thai is very effective and Muay Thai transitions into street fighting stunningly well soooooo trapping is legit IMO I have pulled a lot of wing chun shit off sparring in Muay Thai and even hand fighting in wrestling/bjj which is essentially just the “patty cake” phase anyways and those are the two most effective grappling arts. Trapping isn’t a situation you put yourself in, it’s a situation that you fall into. Your counterpunch game will be immaculate if you practice boxing and wing chun
@matkasim3 жыл бұрын
every wing chun people shoukld watch this, esp minute 1:47 tqvm superb info
@marcusfreemantle39383 жыл бұрын
As a former wing chun instructor my self with good boxing experience and some bjj, wing chun is a excellent training system, which fits in to any art ie, wing chun in the style of boxing or bjj , but wing chun is not a fighting art on its own for sport and promotes bad exposure to your chin also mobility for foot work.
@bradford5681 Жыл бұрын
If train Wing Chun with actual sparring vs people who know how to punch and clinch you actually get good at working the preferred range for trapping, but trapping sequences shouldn't even be necessary because then you aren't focused on punching, kicking, elbows and knees.
@notsureawake39812 жыл бұрын
Consider using these traps from the bottom of closed guard as deflections into the arm drag when accompanied by a knee pull, forcing them into the hand fight. If the closed guard grip fight is a slow version of striking, these same movements can be applied. Especially the cross wrist catch to drag, but others also to some extent. The focus is on beating the elbow. And the strikes are instead making grips or frame breaking using grips. Same goes for karate 8 point blocking. The movements are minimized but I think this is a great concept for closed guard, forcing the opponent into an initial deflection and gripping system.
@joedasilva38664 жыл бұрын
Excellent lesson 😎👊💪
@Alckemy7 ай бұрын
The one thing that makes all this work is that trapping should be a byproduct of hitting. When you are unsuccessful and someone gives you and obstruction then the traps will find themselves. If you are thinking trap instead of hit you’re going to get a rude awakening
@markant95345 жыл бұрын
Bruce Lee decided to develop the martial arts form Jeet Kune Do after he realised during a real match that the Wing Chun he learnt was useless in a fight.
@giuseppienad34135 жыл бұрын
I woudn't say useless. He won against Wong Jack Man but found using wing chun alone was limiting his fighting potential. So Jeet Kune Do was born. A styless kung fu
@markant95345 жыл бұрын
@@giuseppienad3413 “I’d gotten into a fight in San Francisco (a reference, no doubt, to the Bay Area rather than the city) with a Kung-Fu cat, and after a brief encounter the son-of-a-bitch started to run. I chased him and, like a fool, kept punching him behind his head and back. Soon my fists began to swell from hitting his hard head. Right then I realized Wing Chun was not too practical and began to alter my way of fighting.”
@statmandemps11545 жыл бұрын
I want that joker rash guard
@thebladedwind9934 жыл бұрын
Trapping is meant to train contact reflexes. It's not meant to be a long sequence while fighting. It's ONE motion. Pak dar/Lop dar/Tan dar. Its not 3-4 moves in one instance. It's not a sequence. It's a moment in time.
@massivojohnson5 жыл бұрын
HOW DARE YOU SAY THIS STEPHAN!!!! BLASPHEMY!
@happymonster90982 жыл бұрын
This is so accurate. I trained different martial arts included the wing Chun trapping. I was never able to pull it in a high intensity sparring. However, I was able to make the part of the trappings you explained. I think hand trapping is a great tool but the drills from wing Chun are wrong. If I ever teach someone how to do that I will make my own drills doing only the movement that works. There is no point in wasting time in the part of the drill that doesn't.
@blackenskatography99284 жыл бұрын
my understanding is that JKD under ted wong lineage WC trap or WC shit almost no more, mostly fencing & boxing stuff for interception.
@avenewconsulting11183 жыл бұрын
if you dont have place, like in a club, it works, in a club it difficult to do a take down, single leg....
@erickeegan59995 жыл бұрын
one thing to consider is that it depends on where the trapping is happening. in a narrow hall way or in a nightclub could work.
@harimau11154 жыл бұрын
Trapping is actually a momentary thing. Not trap after trap until someone shuts down. That's only for training and the movies. This is why Bruce Lee elimimated much of the trapping in JKD by around 1969.
@brayenstekkel71853 жыл бұрын
So, BJJ and wing chun are a good combination?
@TheJoyofCatholicTradition3 жыл бұрын
Ive only made a classical bong sao lop sao work one time & that was probably due to the fact my opponent had never seen that. Im not sure if it would work multiple times. The technique from WC ive had most positive results is using the cross punching drill but instead of trading blows, i intercept the first while stepping to the outside & landing the straight right.
@charleshurst10155 жыл бұрын
Very cool! I love trapping, and you've just explained why it's not used as much. New ideas for BJJ!!
@taylorbee40102 жыл бұрын
I feel the ex sensitivity might HELP learning wrestling and clinching. Bjj to me feels like trapping, just with your whole body and lying on your back
@armitagesoulshroude98155 жыл бұрын
No: If there is a person who knows how to control their balance and movement and have been trained regarding this fact. Or someone who is aware of what you're doing without such disciplinary training, by instinct. Yes: If you can trick them into thinking that they've no control over you via manipulation or other tactical standards, or they just don't know how to fight. Yada and period.
@CykelSierra5 жыл бұрын
Trapping without strong adherence is mostly useless
@OscarLee.THRCru23 жыл бұрын
It is quite obvious that Wing Chun sequences are only for training and gaining skill. Any Wing Chun teacher who tells you otherwise is a fake.
@scottyg54035 жыл бұрын
Excellent video!Thanks
@ThePirucho775 жыл бұрын
good technique but only for hollywood movies
@m.a.central99495 жыл бұрын
This makes a lot of sense.
@outofthebox75 жыл бұрын
Sure some wing chun moves work, in fact THEY ALL DO UNDER THE RIGHT CIRCUMSTANCES. Same is true for all moves from all systems. Sure sometimes they are best used in a "clunky" manner, but this is true for all jujitsu moves/grappling as well. I mean it's a fight, not a video game or a movie; techniques must adapt. The sets you did in the beginning and kept showing after are actually just drills to develop sensitivity and understanding of in fighting (distance, posture etc.); no one says that that's exactly how they will come out in a fight or that they can be used in all distances. I have to add here that I find it flabbergasting that so many jujitsu people think they are somehow in a superior position to dictate what can or can't be done in a fight and that on behalf of other systems; people have been properly using their martial art/s long before jujitsu entered the scene and of course will keep doing so.
@jakeylee65 жыл бұрын
The way wing chun is trained isn't super useful for a fight though. And this is a self defense channel to give you the most realistic techniques to use and explain why some things are just not useful for the average street fight or whatever. I've been to a few wing chun classes and sparred with wing chun guys too. I shut down all their techniques with basic level judo. So with my experience I'd have to completely agree with what Stephan is saying. There are many better things to practice if you want to be able to fight.
@jakeylee65 жыл бұрын
@@coldlessons I'd say having gloves would make trapping easier?
@jakeylee65 жыл бұрын
@@coldlessons Stephan's video was solely on if trapping works in a fight and the answer was mostly no. That's it. It has nothing to do with what kind of fight it is. As he explained you'd generally have two options, move away, or move towards. However trapping did somewhat work against a grounded opponent. I'd also like to point out that most TMA people have never been in a fight or done any serious sparring against a skilled opponent. Hence why they chat BS like wing chun
@outofthebox75 жыл бұрын
@@jakeylee6 Yes, the problem with ma systems is mostly the way they train. This is where he should have put his weight on, not on the techniques themselves. Having said that, every student, especially one trained in other ma, practices on his own and has his own character and way of thinking and his own strive to be a capable and competant fighter at least for self defense. He knows he has to make those moves work, it doesn't finish at the dojo, never. In doing this, by rule he will still be able to use many of what he learned in a fight. How effective he will be depends on him and the attacker, but it's better than doing nothing. I mean everybody learns a kick, a punch, a push, a throw. If he put enough practice into those, and has SPUNK in him, he will use them. Will he survive the fight? Most likely, even he doesn't win. Most attackers are not experienced, so all martial arts are helpful. Now you taking down a wing chun student in a class using judo is easy, but it means nothing actually, in the sense that there was never an attempt to punch your face off or kick you in the knee, so all you have to do is keep going at him and eventualy he will get tired and get tossed or pushed/thrown. Sadly sparring with them is nonsense. Take an experienced streefighter however from this same school that has at least 1-2 years of practice and understands the basics enough and ask him for a real fight where he will be in danger, well then the story will possibly be a different one. If the video is about self defense, why not promote what is good in other systems as self defense or only from your own system? Why get into things he doesn't seem to understand (although he has dealt with wing chun practice as he said)? I think jujitsu people have issues deriving from misconception about the street and even their own system, and other systems (especially with so many dojos around that should be closed).
@outofthebox75 жыл бұрын
@@coldlessons Yep. Sadly this is the jujitsu virus.
@dascookie6767 Жыл бұрын
If you do karate this would just be an entrance for a clinch. I think wing chuns problem ist they dont take it a step further in to that.
@baldieman642 жыл бұрын
Wing Chun is like Aikido. It's an exploration of an idea rather than a complete martial art.
@hamadalrowaie68825 жыл бұрын
Five stars !! 🤗
@SelfDefenseTutorials5 жыл бұрын
Thank you good sir!
@bohu95222 жыл бұрын
As someone who trains WC so much, I'm surprised you use MMA to determine whether WC works. The padding on MMA gloves makes all these combinations and wrist grabs virtually impossible to execute, so of course it becomes just single moves with no follow ups? Use empty hands and its much easier to do.
@demsandlibsareswinecancer46674 ай бұрын
Why would you be surprised? Basically every martial art practitioner who claims to be a master in China has had their ass handed to them by a Chinese MMA fighter over and over again. No matter Kung fu, wing chun, karate, it does not matter. It was over in seconds. China was so mad that they ruined his social credit score so he couldn't even travel anymore. The Chinese people were furious that he laid bare the reality of their precious martial arts.😂
@aaronjimenez96845 жыл бұрын
Those trappings are not really meant to go non stop the way I see and understand it. What you do in the gym or dojo are repetitions for the purpose of practice so the body will remember the techniques so when needed your body will react without thinking. (kinda like ultra instinct.😄) So to expect in real life or combat to execute multiple trappings is not right since real fight is different from practice and the movies.
@keystoanotherworld2 жыл бұрын
Facts!
@sifukyle90113 жыл бұрын
Trapping isn't really a thing in Wing Chun. It's more efficient and effective to just hit them. Trapping hands is "chasing hands" which go against principles in wing chun. Only way a "trap" could take place is from the opponent having to stick to an attack due to overwhelming pressure.
@edelcorrallira5 жыл бұрын
Sounds reason enough to train it... But giving it the priority it has (you have already a solid grounding on the 90 percenters and then add this as an advanced or situational technique) Loved this vid
@WingChunEcuador5 жыл бұрын
Just say u don’t lock for trapping it just happens the way we train is just to develop some hablities not to fight trying to do it jajaj but u know most of people don’t understand what they do specially in wc
@carlogrevely31165 ай бұрын
The problem with trapping is thinking of it from a drilling perspective. Trapping should be 1 to 2. You won't have a Donnie Yen fight. No one fights like that 😂. But what you do get is, like what you said, one trap per entry. Maybe two, depending on the person's reaction. But the problem is people expect the drill essential word drill to be how it works, but it’s only practiced this way to build technique by doing it repeatedly. But there is a ton of proof on the internet and in fights where we see people use these techniques, so yes, it does work, but just like in anything else, even BJJ, it’s not always going to look like you drilled it.
@pocketchange60103 жыл бұрын
trapping is effective and the point of doing the drills is to know what to do when you are there...watch paul vunak
@quinngiles70805 жыл бұрын
Not sure if this is the same but I like the thumbless grip trap when standing Commonly seen with standing headlock strike defense know what I mean??? I find if you trap an arm like that even if you only use one hand it's usually stuck unless buddy's arm your trapping is a huge guy!!!
@raymondramallo6015 жыл бұрын
Sorry to all the bruce lee fans out their who want to believe in their hearts trapping works, it just simply dosent work in a cage or in a street fight under resistsnce. It works only in static and how do i know this i trained jkd fir a long time thats why i left and now only train in arts that have resistance : bjj, wrestling, boxing etc. Drills that are done in static with no resistance will never work against an opponent with aggression.
@SelfDefenseTutorials5 жыл бұрын
To be fair, a lot of JKD people have figured this out as well now and have started including much more MMA-oriented techniques in their training
@raymondramallo6015 жыл бұрын
Yes absolutely to be fair, it's 2019 u have to know what is going on in martial arts with respect to what works and what dosent under pressure and resistance. People are still training in static with no understanding that timing only comes from resistance training never from static training.
@bougeac5 жыл бұрын
Spot on Ray, better to work on developing a solid clinch game than spending hours on trapping drills. I’ve studied wing chun for a long time and do use some trapping (not much) the lineage I study focus a lot on pressure testing and punching/striking quickly into clinch range where a lot of the art actually works very well. Arm drags/two on ones/under over hooks etc are all in the art and by exposing oneself to other standup close range arts like Greco/judo my understanding of my Wc has deepened and improved my application of it
@linusverclyte49885 жыл бұрын
@@bougeac So you're basically doing wrestling and call it WC. Whatever works for you. I always find it strange that people try to rehabilitate esoteric, superflous arts by incorporating techniques from other arts that actually work and then claim they were always in the art to begin with. If these old masters didn't practice it that way it's clear there's nothing more than a superficial resemblance and projection on your part. Of course it's understandable people don't want to admit they've wasted years training an art that only has very limited applicability in actual fighting. If pac sao and lap sao are the only techniques that are truly effective why bother to learn all the forms and drills?
@bougeac5 жыл бұрын
Wing chun has many clinch/wrestling techniques within it. Second form Chum Kiu is designed for short bridge fighting. Just because you’re understanding of wing chun is limited doesn’t mean it doesn’t contain these things. It’s not just pak da/ lap da and chain punching
@mider99963 жыл бұрын
Some JKD guys do teach like that, like Tim Tackett