Marvel Doesn't Know How To Write Female Characters | Video Essay |

[@BoomTribeEntertainment]

This show is literally the same “toxic sexism” they’re always crying about. Just towards men. It doesn’t make you a misogynist to criticize women’s shows . That is rediculous

[@brianjames2000]

To be fair, a lot of heroes never 'earned' their powers. Blade was born with his, so were basically all mutants, Superman is Kryptonian, Spiderman got bitten, etc. I think the problem is that writers are afraid to make their female characters vulnerable. All the characters I mentioned got beaten down physically or emotionally or both at some point. The reason we love them is we enjoy seeing them rise from their lowest point to be heroes. We see Dutch in Predator start out as a badass but gradually get humbled by the alien threat before managing to pull out a win. But writers seem to think that having a female character at her lowest point somehow makes her weak.

[@Dylasophical]

Absolutely! There are many characters who accidentally get their powers or don't "earn" them. But it's about proving your worth of having those powers. Like you said, being vulnerable and being tested through the story. Showing why they deserve the powers or why they're a compelling person.

[@hedleylamarr1750]

I used to think Carol Danvers/Ms. Marvel/Binary was such a heroic figure back in her Chris Claremont Avengers and X-Men days. She had her powers stolen by Rogue, then went through the torture of alien experiments to become Binary, and she just soldiered through it. I remembered totally sympathizing with her. Then they decided to turn her into whatever she is today and now I can't stand her character.

[@gerardcote8391]

They think the woman's low point is being naturally the best at everything from the beginning and only going up from there. The term Mary Sue was invented for these very type of zero dimensional characters.

[@Tjnovakart]

The thing that makes it all the more wild is how (on the animation side) Disney’s had a track record of writing amazing female characters. Lilo, Mulan, Mary Poppins, Rapunzel, and Judy Hopps all have very different personalities and stories being told, but they’re all compelling nonetheless. Judy Hopps is your standard spunky “I’m gonna do my own thing and no one can tell me otherwise” character, but you see her doubt herself and (temporarily) give up when it gets to be too much. She’s not a quirky hardass who’s always right- she’s sensitive, empathetic, and can admit when she’s wrong, which ultimately leads to her success. And Lilo is still one of my favorite characters of all time because of how well they dealt with a character type we rarely see in media. As someone who had extreme social issues as a kid (in my case due to autism rather than trauma), she really resonated with me. And now, I see Mary Poppins as an aspirational character as a somewhat no-nonsense person who still wants to help others myself. Some might see her as a Mary Sue, but I think her character works perfectly in her role- to inspire curiosity and wonder in the viewer. It just sucks that Disney can’t take a page out of its own handbook when it comes to the MCU.

[@julius-stark]

This isn't just an MCU thing, this is a Hollywood thing. Woman are no longer allowed to struggle. They're not even allowed to be mentored by a man or lose to one. If they made Die Hard with a woman she would be the best cop ever and never lose her shoes or get her clothes dirty. And although I never cared for Hawkeye, at least they had him get turned even and fight the good guys and then gets brain punched back into being a good guy. That was still a more interesting plot progression than what Captain Marvel went through, who could have torn that thing off on her neck at any time.

[@thetruej7872]

She Hulk is one of my favorite superheroines. I like her more than Hulk actually believe it or not. I like her personality, design, and the fact she can break the 4th wall. She Hulk is very unique. MCU She Hulk has the design and 4th wall breaking down, but I'm not digging her personality right now. Maybe she'll develop in the show hopefully, but I'm just not sure.

[@Dylasophical]

That's fair! I'm not a fan of her in the comics, but I'm trying to give her show a chance.

[@diobrando5896]

I'm not holding out hope for her character to change because the pilot episode was actually changed around and was supposed to be the season finale.

[@romibengali]

@@Dylasophical Oh so you don't like the good stuff but are willing to give a chance to the bad stuff huh.

[@Dylasophical]

@@romibengali She-Hulk in the comics isn't the "good stuff" lol

[@romibengali]

@@Dylasophical you are unbelievable so according to you what is then lmao

[@ElieBoutros1]

I feel like Wonder Woman (2017) was the best representation of women in the superhero genre, she wasn’t the best in her youth, she was reckless and she learned to be better, she didn’t love Steve because Chris Pine is hot, she did because he was a good guy, she doesn’t hate men because men are bad, I don’t even think she hates men at all, and that No Man’s Land scene, holy God it was phenomenal, I loved every bit of that movie, my 11 year old sister actually looks up to her, until they had to ruin everything in Wonder Woman 1984 😒 Note: I haven’t watched the movie in a while, so if I get something wrong, please do correct me

[@kwow3233]

You're right WW 2017 was the last good female lead superhero movie WHICH SUCKS BECAUSE THAT WAS FIVE YEARS AGO

[@ElieBoutros1]

@@kwow3233 Correct, I was actually looking forward to Captain Marvel, I already liked the character just from seeing her in pictures of comics, I didn’t even read them, she looked really cool, sad they had to make her movie that way, and used more or less the same thing for the other female characters that came after her

[@robinthrush9672]

My only issue with the movie was when they did bring Ares in and undermined the entire theme of the movie and lesson WW was taught just for a big super fight for the climax. Other than that, it's hands-down the best DCEU and super-heroine movie made.

[@js100serch]

The reason why these characters are so bad is because Disney is hiring people with next to no experience in writing and directing. They are there just because they align with Disney's agenda and ideology. A quick google search on any of these people, will reveal how inexperienced they are and the worst of all, they are mostly in their mid to late 30's. What were they doing all this time?, who knows!!.

[@samuelmackenzie5267]

One of my favourite superhero’s is actually Jessica Jones. I love how Kristina Ritter portrayed the character with depth and emotion. She went through trauma and had her life destroyed by a character who can make you do what he wants. She also has an uncaring demeanour which I appreciate. She also has common sense, knowing when a bad idea is a bad idea, something her sister doesn’t get. I appreciated that she was a well rounded character.

[@Dylasophical]

Yeah Jessica Jones was a really good character, especially in season 1.

[@bliczb8772]

You know what... I think I'm going to disagree with you on Black Widow. She had a limited characterisation when she was introduced in Iron-Man 2, I admit, but by lord, the first Avengers movie made her compelling. She was a master-interrogator, being able to squeeze out information out of her subjects by making them think they're in control of the situation (both opening with Russian captors and later interrogation of Loki). She was cunning, smart, handy, and whilst she was seductive, just because she's pretty doesn't devalue her skills. If anything, it was helpful - she could charm her subjects and play them to her will. Ever heard of a Femme Fatale? What really sold me on her was her interrogation of Loki. She managed to surprise him, even though he knew she was coming (something they both remark on). We learn her motivation - she did horrible things in her past, something she tries to atone for, something that Loki finds simply hilarious. Then, as Loki was stripping down Shield, letting Avengers know they lied to them, he also played with Natasha - he had insight into Clint's mind, this allowed him to tell how much they both meant to one another. This allowed Loki to toy with Natasha, telling her what he'd do, and it absolutely terrified her. And then, in utter boast of confidence, Loki slipped - he revealed just a bit too much. "You let on the monster". That's when Natasha realized Banner was a part of Loki's plan. And once she cracked it, once Loki realized that this small taunt had capacity to doom his entire plan - he wouldn't even look at her as she left. And Natasha? Her fear was convincing because it was real. Later on, she told Clint that she got compromised - The damage Loki thought he dealt? He actually dealt it. Natasha was just professional enough to use her fear to her advantage. Hence why I was saddened by Nat's solo movie. It sucked that it released after her death in Endgame, but that wasn't even my main issue - it was how they treated Nat in the movie. She was portrayed as stupid (she's a fugitive on the run throughout the entire movie because it's in the middle of Civil War, and she strolls throughout half the world like that's barely even an issue. She would've taken extra precaution in those circumstances), and uncaring (she literally says to Yelena, a woman that she wanted to protect when she was younger that "you were never really my sister". The family-oriented Natasha Romanov, saying that to the closest thing she ever had to a sister, for no fucking reason at all, simply because Yelena is poorly executed piece of retroactive continuity). The whole prison breakout, and burying guards and prisoners in the snow - Nat was explicit, she wants to wipe the red from her ledger (this goddamn movie even references that, sloppily to may I add), and yet, she watched as her sister damned all these guards and prisoners to a slow and painful death under tons of snow (which she was even somewhat happy about) and didn't condemn her actions. Not to mention that her skills in interrogation have been severely downgraded. All she did was tell Dreykov he's pathethic and like any king of the incels, he spilled out his entire plan to her because of it. It's a shame that they attached those traits to the Black Widow we knew. And honestly, watching it... It really feels like they did that simply because they wanted to prop Yelena as a new Black Widow, and only way Marvel knows how to do that now is by tearing down previously established characters. For all intents and purposes, I'm firmly in the camp "solo movies first, teamup movies later". We should've gotten Black Widow solo movie back in the days of Phase 1, along with Iron-Man, Cap and Thor. Hell, maybe even make it a movie about both Clint and Nat, how they met, explore that dark past of theirs. But at last, it just wasn't meant to be.

[@reyfan011]

Shehulk came off as really arrogant. She prides herself on her job, which is good. But more than half her dialogue is about how men underestimate her, aren’t as smart, overly aggressive, just constant complaining. And of course her monologue how she feels she knows suffering just because she’s a woman and has dealt with troubles almost every woman encounters. As a woman I wasn’t empowered by that, I was cringing so hard. Every other word from her made me cringe. Dialogue like that is why you have male critiques who think there’s some agenda against men. Making a big deal about everything you do saying, ‘female empowerment’ doesn’t make it true. You don’t have to keep talking down about men to lift yourself up. If you’re strong and smart you don’t have to say it, you just are or you do it. Marvel seems to be trying way too hard on their ‘Girl power’ thing.

[@varianmidoriya1194]

Doesn’t even pass the Bechdel test 🙄

[@bellalalala3327]

"what is gamora's character arc? learning how to make friends? running from her daddy?" yes?? exactly??? her entire race was dizimated by thanos's army, and she was adopted by him and ABUSED by him until she learned how to fight properly so that wouldn't happen anymore. and consequentially, she had to watch the only person she could really call family, nebula, get tortured and abused to the point she became a cyborg. that's why the guardians' companion is so important to her. also, during the entirety of gotg 1 and 2 she actively wants to off thanos herself, so she isn't running away from him😭😭 edit: and mantis isn't a superficial character at all, she just had no time to really be fleshed out, but that's because she's a supporting character

[@jlinus7251]

I agree about most of these women, but Gamora and Yelena are actually well written and I will stand by that claim.

[@ClikcerProductions]

I would say they're about as well written as similarly important male characters, nothing special, but definitely don't fall into the Girl Boss/Hysterical dichotomy that most MCU women seem to have been pushed into

[@hedleylamarr1750]

I think Nebula from Guardians of the Galaxy is the strongest female character Marvel made.

[@RestlessEmRose]

As a women it has always bothered me how they wrote the women! I’m a huge comic book nerd but I haven’t watched anything from phase 4 cause I’m just so tired of what I see on screen! It’s boring and low key sexist!

[@TheMindofRa]

Oh? Do tell. Because one of the folks I know says that criticizing these films is misogyny and ALL women think such criticism is misogyny. And when i pointed out that: no, it's not all women but people with her ideological bent who think this way. Her response is that I was being "problematic" with my views.

[@jeviosoorishas181]

Wanda's a great example of what the issue is: Marvel can write "great female characters", it's just that they screw up the moment they try to make them "strong female characters."

[@JcgLounge]

Hmm, I definitely agree with a lot of your points. For Kate Bishop, yeah she wasn’t amazing but at least her personality was decent and she didn’t come across as unlikable or like you wouldn’t want to be around her. Gamora and Nebula are better female characters considering they’re whole sister dynamic and relation with their father was pretty compelling in the movies they appeared in. Layla? Yeah, I liked that she became the Scarlet Scarab, but that was rushed if you ask me. It happened way too early in the series when something like that should’ve happened in a second season.

[@Rosemont104]

The live-action Disney princess remakes have the same problem. It's always the same message: "Be born perfect and convince the world they're wrong!" as Doug Walker put it.

[@greywarden1261]

Better title; Marvel don't know how to write good female protagonists. All of the bad female characters have always been 'main characters' and they MCU has never really put too much effort into side characters to make them anything but 1 dimensional cool to watch for a while shadows of well handled people. (to note I won't state my opinions on some characters because I have actively avoided Marvel since Black Widow, kinda glad I have as well I will be honest there) Natasha was amazing through out the MCU's run, but the second she was given a solo movie suddenly shes handle poorly, the writers having her act so out of character which also shows up a bit in Yelena. I personally love Yelena and Natasha and I don't think she's trying to replicate Natasha, for one Yelena seems like the type to not want kids so instantly that seperates the two but I think she is also underutilised and instead of showing the differences they try to show how shes like Natasha (which works but only in ruining the two of them which sucks because I do actually like Yelena) Larson's Captain Marvel is as bad as the original character and honestly is one I wish I'd never have to see ever again. If I wanted to watch a broken character with more spice in terms of personality I'd watch the cartoons version of superman and not whatever captain marvel is. Wanda could have been done amazingly, everything in her life could have led into a dark depressive spiral of loss after loss and eventually leading to her going crazy with regret and grief because she refused to accept that she needed help and that she could continue to make family even after she had lost her own - emphasis on her pushing away others and actively NOT talking about her emotions and becoming colder, something emotional women wouldn't do. It would make her a contrast to Tony which I think would've been something that added some dimension to her, I mean, imagine ending up like the man who basically killed your parents - wouldn't that be a kicker of a character ending? Never liked female Thor, thought it was rather boring and just meh? Like wow a god but its not a good, cool right? Kinda glad she got killed off and I hope she stays dead this time! I disagree with you for Xialing because the whole point of Shang-Chi, or what I took of it, was embracing your culture while not bending to unrealistic and 'old time-y' unspoken rules that don't make sense in our current times. Since she comes from a Chinese family, a culture that still has the idea that men are more important than women, it would make sense for her narrative to be proving the men in her family wrong or more importantly her father which is a nice contrast to Shang-Chi who seeks absolutely nothing from his father and detests him.

[@NorwayChallenge]

To me it just seems like the creators want to appear inclusive, but they don't really care. If they did, they would put the same creative efforrt into the female characters as the male ones. It just seems like representation for good PR.

[@destinyhntr]

Thor is proof that even men who are born rich with powers still need to earn it. His whole movie was about how getting everything handed to you (like all these female characters getting their powers) creates a spoiled, selfish brat. Thor had to learn to move beyond that and EARN his powers back.

[@naparoid5507]

The problem is that they trying too hard to bring real life struggles into their movies or series. Take Supergirl for example. They took a perfectly good character and turned her into this huge commercial about sexism, racesim and even homophobia. When i sit down to watch a show or a movie is because i want someting to help me escape from all the drama in real life. But now i can't do that either because every movie and series brings them up all the time and i end up losing interest. I dont care if the protagonist in a movie or show is man or woman, white or black, straight or gay. i just want action and some good character development. Now it feels like they just copy paste everything to everyone

[@Galimeer5]

Hollywood as a whole seems to think "woman" is a character trait. I think the reason the MCU is falling apart is because Kevin Feige isn't ensuring the same quality control that he did before and is letting get away with the same mediocrity that they did with every movie starring Kristen Stewart. And I don't blame him. Dude's been running a tight ship for over a decade now. He's got to be getting sick of it and wants to do something new, but taking a hands-off approach phase 4+ is the best he can do while wearing Disney's shackles.

[@jairusjackson7799]

What baffles me, a lot of the directors and writers creating and writing for these new female characters, are actually WOMEN, I really don't get how they're messing this up so much. Like it actually confuses me, but it has a lot to do with narcissism and poor writing

[@Luizanimado]

Peggy Carter had such a cool arc on the first season of her show, I highly recommend it to watch it, the season 2 is kinda bad though

[@mikedolberry3043]

I always admired Pepper Potts in the MCU. She is stable and had a great character arc, throughout the movies.

[@Dylasophical]

Agreed! Her and Tony have the best relationship. Forgot about Pepper.

[@naquingreen1603]

@@Dylasophical Pepper was cool in the first and third Iron Man movies BUT her character was whiny in Iron Man 2 and was reduced to the "annoying girlfriend" stereotype She was fine in both the first Avengers and Infinity War

[@01NeilHD]

It was annoying to see Jessica Gao admit that all court procedurals planned for She-Hulk were scrapped due to writer incompetence. If Disney were smart, they would have shelved She-Hulk for another year, wait for the end of Better Call Saul (a show that knew how to write a compelling female lawyer), poach every talent possible from there, then craft their series.

[@haveidonethisbefore]

What a missed opportunity

[@classyrobot5648]

Good casting with She Hulk, but the writing is literally the worst I've seen since Steven Universe's "let's redeem the Not Sees" arc

[@Dylasophical]

The actress is doing a good job, but the writing is atrocious. I haven't seen Steven Universe lol

[@rob_patrick1]

Ironically They accept the bare minimum with seeing the same gender on screen because majority of women don't care about (comic book) characters, accepting a lousy job is already a battle won in this fictional "war" against men.

[@finnoone12]

it is quite sad really i love some female characters such as spider gwen, wonder woman, Zatanna etc luckily for me as more of a DC fan i see mostly great female depictions (except lois) but the mcu has such a big problen with female writing its sad

[@Tyler_W]

They don't know how to write women, which is insulting enough, but they also degrade and belittle the men characters to make the women look good in comparison. Marvel Comics has some awesome male and female characters alike, and before 2016 when the comics just took a nosedive (it was pre-Trump, but that just made them reactively dig their heels in to their detriment), male and female characters simply were what they were. It wasn't some competition. Characters could just be themselves and be awesome together, whether male or female.

[@askarsfan2011]

I don't think this problem is just with female characters. I think it's a symptom of the current unfortunate film-making trend to focus more on style over substance and use telling rather than showing. Even male characters are suffering from this trend. The Gray Man is basically a conflict between men (mostly white men), and these men are also vague, superficial, generic stereotypes that feel more like caricatures than real people. And 6 Underground also had underdeveloped characters. Hollywood writers want to avoid controversy by creating benign characters that can't offend anyone because they are so superficial and generic. But these characters only incur a different kind of criticism.

[@Tyler_W]

This is an excellent observation. I've definitely noticed it but haven't really considered the way you've explained it. It's so painfully true. Women, gay and black characters definitely get the worst of it, but it plagues all characters to be sure. I love just about anything now that dares to have three-dimensional characters and a compelling story that doesn't give two cents about what the Twitter Gremlins will screech about it.

[@dos_tres]

This is a huge problem with media and general… chasing after representation and just proceeding to feed into stereotypes is downright insulting

[@aliahpersonous2893]

To be fair, Wanda was pretty irrational in WandVision

[@uxm4life94]

Classic Marvel already had great female characters for decades. Modern Marvel is determined to make them all petty, bitter and driven only by spite.

[@michaelcamacho3717]

In Ang Lee's Hulk, the transformation happens like almost an hour into the movie because Ang Lee has to show the audience who Bruce Banner is. I haven't seen She-Hulk because I don't have Disney+ and even if I did have Disney+ I would just be watching all of Disney's old stuff, none of the new shows or movies.

[@michaelcamacho3717]

Also, I don't know anything about She-Hulk, I don't even remember her from the 90s animated show.

[@ukyorulz]

The MCU is basically reconfirming the Galbrush Threepwood paradox with each new female character they create. None of the characters have growth arcs because they aren't allowed to have flaws they can grow out of.

[@HarryTalksMoviesAndTV]

I agree with the criticism about Wanda, she was an awesome and compelling character in the movies and all throughout WandaVision but MoM reduced her to a stereotypical crazy woman

[@mieshocked1450]

"oH bUt iN tHe CoMiCs SHe iS JuSt LiKe ThIs" Yeah fans, in the comics, she's even worse. She killed MUCH MORE people and went nut over 5 times. They had a chance of making her an anti-hero, a woman with flaws, emotional problems and dealing with pain, abuse traumas and grief, a woman that hurted people and fully regreted it, fixed the things and grown better. A woman that loved her family more than ANYTHING and was able to bring them back WITHOUT hurting others. And she was this amazing woman in WandaVision (percect series OMG). But no, HERE IT COMES THE INSANE MONSTER IN MoM 😍😍😍 And it's such hipocrit that some fans think she's unforgivable, the same time they forgive Loki and Magneto, two men that murdered *MUCH MORE PEOPLE* and with reasons less sympathetic than Wanda's.

[@wildwind413]

Damn. I really thought Kate Bishop was a great character, but now I know it was my love for Hailee Steinfeld blinding me

[@kylorenfred9254]

U just called out a large percentage of men. 😂😂

[@DavidMartinez-ce3lp]

Quick correction, a male Mary Sue is actually called Gary Stu.

[@creepyrobsta5509]

My favorite female character is "the ancient one", and even her character isn't all that fleshed out. I think it is more that Tilda Swinton acted the hell out of it. I hope they reintroduce her from another universe, so we can learn more about her, and why is Doctor Strange the best of them?

[@technocore1591]

Show-don't-tell! The scene where she explains how she's learned to deal with her anger because of male aggression is bad writing. It's like the writer stops the show to look at the audience and tell us what they think. Why not SHOW us this? Why not develop her character by showing us how she has learned to deal with her anger instead of just saying it's so. Lazy writing.

[@johnnyboy7663]

Karen Page, Jesscia Jones, Trish Walker, Misty Knight, Coleen Wing, Dinah Madani and Claire Temple were all extremely well written, beautifully acted and marvel wants to retcon them. All beacuse Kevin Fegie didn't like Jeph Lobe and the marvel netflix series (which still are legions beyond the Disney Plus shows) Ms Marvel was a good character and Wanda before they ruined her and I still hold out hope for the women in Wakanda Forever.

[@katherinereed]

I think part of what helps characters like Hawkeye and Falcon be accepted more easily by the audience is that they 1 - aren't the main lead, and 2 - their basic backstories assume the skills they have (even just in the movies). In most of the Avengers team-up movies, Ironman and Captain America are the two main leads with a rotation of supporting characters. Even for the Phase 1 movies, Ironman, Captain America, Hulk, and Thor were the only ones to get fleshed out backstories. However, Black Widow and Hawkeye were SHIELD agents, so it wasn't impossible to view them as well trained. Falcon meanwhile had tested and used the Falcon wings previously, so he sould already be able to use them well. As for other smaller leads/supporting characters, the only reason it would be confusing is if they were either established to be against fighting and did a 180 off screen, or if they were established to have not been trained at all. For example, I think Pepper was written well in the final fight in Ironman III - she has been established as disliking of the armor and is still a civilian at this point, so her being scared of her new powers is reasonable. Endgame wants us to believe that she at some point trained with the Rescue armor. While it isn't completely unbelievable, there are several gaps to fill in since Infinity War Pepper still didn't like Tony keeping the armor on him (which could be explained as Pepper felt Tony was overly paranoid by always having the armor with him, but wasn't paranoid by having it for certain events/at home). Actually, I think Pepper vs Captain Marvel is part of what determines if the journey is believable. With Pepper, it is a somewhat believable journey that she went from hating the Ironman armor to wearing a suit of her own. Part of Pepper's story was her relationship with Tony, and her feelings about the armor tended to relate to how Tony was doing. Early on, Pepper disliked the armor because to her it did as much good for Tony as it did harm. After Ironman III, Pepper was mostly off screen running Stark Industries and debating her relationship with Tony. By Civil War though, we can see just how much Ironman is affecting Tony's life, but he also struggles to let go of the good Ironman can do. Pepper likely saw it with more detail, but it is believable that she talked a lot between Civil War and Infitiy War, so they worked to find a balance. In fact, I won't be surprised if Tony had cut back on a lot of his Ironman missions after Civil War, so wearing the armor casing was something they were still debating. It would even be reasonable that Pepper had some training in case of an emergency, but not a full battle suit. Then the five years pass, and Pepper is fully trained, but is still hesitant to use the suit. But when the final battle happens, she's not taking the chance of not being able to help Tony like in the past (particularly Civil War and Infiity War), so she joins the fight. For Captain Marvel, it was hard to see where any development came in Carol's story. There was no struggle for her to overcome the Kree training to be controlled and unemotional, no realization that her powers were tied to her emotions. Instead, she just somehow discovers that the Kree were suppressing her powers and assumes that that's bad because the Skrulls said the Kree are the real bad guys. I found it much easier to fill in a story for how Pepper developed off screen than to figure out what exactly Carol learned in her first movie.

[@cosmicspacething3474]

I’d actually argue Hawkeye had a decent enough arc in Endgame. He went from actually having a loving family, to being a lone assassin who’s given up on the world, to learning to care again.

[@Dylasophical]

Oh I agree! He became complex and interesting in Endgame, but I was just talking about his introductory movies where he just showed up and fought. But yeah, you can find complextites even in some of the lesser male characters.

[@erin_3569]

so far the best female character I've seen in the mcu is Kamala Khan. One of my friends who is POC told me that it was the first time they could actually relate to a character in the MCU, because her relationship with her parents was very reminiscent of theirs. But I think that's mostly because the serie is actually written by an Pakistani woman, so I guess she put a lot of herself in the family dynamics.

[@Dylasophical]

I Iike Kamala Kahn as well. She's one of the few new characters I actually want to see again.

[@naquingreen1603]

@Erin _ That is if you ignore the flagrant disregard of collateral damage in the series

[@romeo5970]

Bro this is 100 percent true!!! Especially what you said about scarlet witch, they fucked her up in multiverse of madness

[@Kagiso22]

I like Angelina Jolie’s Thena, despite her being more a supporting character in Eternals because she is a powerful warrior but she is battling with her mental health in a way and is a danger to others. It’s almost like when the MCU has to focus specifically on a female character getting the spotlight they completely fumble in fear of showing any weakness

[@DemonicRemption]

10:52- 10:59 THANK YOU! I've been saying that for a a few years now! Hell we moved passed this in the 90s and early 2000s, so it's amazing that our media has regressed. Though I have an idea on why.

[@EmpireindaShade]

I like female characters but the message I get from MCU is that men have to work to become anything while females just are whatever the stereotype the writers need them to be smh

[@BRONZALiVE]

The problem fir me is when writing the male characters they take years to build them and multiple films with arcs, yet with phase 4 and late phase 3 characters like cap marvel, mighty Thor, and she hulk have all just gotten there powers and are already great at controlling and understanding them, no character arcs, or focus of building there abilities, mighty Thor and she hulk immediately are great with there powers, and cap marvel even after her solo film is still arrogant like thor was before his arc in his first movie, like when she says “because you didn’t have me” when they said why they lost to Thanos in infinity war, like does she have no humility she just has all this power and doesn’t go on any meaningful journey, even in her solo film I still feel like she’s the same person as when she started, they are rushing these female characters and not wanting to explore them like their male heroes

[@mariannacorreia8750]

Some youtuber said hollywood in general cannot produce female leads who reflext different personalities anymore. They all became a pastiche of the 'girl boss outgoing outspoken don't get in my way' woman and, for me, as an introvert who watched she-hulk 90s series, I identified with Jane as an introvert who found on her alter a scape to be the hero spicy woman she wanted to be. The series go in a totally opposite sight and I'm so disappointed, but not surprised

[@elivenya-theautisticbookwy9638]

Girl Boss- Woman without flaws or strugle, incompetend but the leader....for reasons...

[@whitebuffalo45]

I disagree about scarlett witch. I don't think turning a hero into a villain automatically "ruins" their character. I actually think her progression into evil was pretty believable. At least as believable as ridiculous over-the-top superhero movie crap goes. My only gripe about what doesnt make sense is why she didnt try to go to a universe where not just her kids are alive but also Vision and Quicksilver. But obviously that was probably budgeting

[@whitebuffalo45]

@@emiliab9814 idk. Its been since it came out since ive seen wandavision but from what i remember her actions were painted as, while at least somehwat understandable because of her grief and perhaps not understanding what she's doing at first, still morally reprehensible. Didnt she mention she has done bad things at the beginning of multiverse of madness?

[@Kagiso22]

Wandavision needed to end with Wanda being turned on by vision and her kids as they realize she enslaved everyone to create them and their false world. This shattering rejection and additional loss could be used to explain her losing it and just running away with the dark hold with her and leaving her fake world to fall apart. That way when we see her in MOM we remember that we left her off still as the villian in Wandavision so it feels like she’s progressed deeper into her madness. Even her not going to a universe that doesn’t have a Wanda can be written as her realizing that America can’t actually control her abilities and then trying to take control of her to get to a universe where her kids are real.

[@ClikcerProductions]

This is honestly a problem that stretches beyond the MCU, Hollywood in general seems to struggle with having female characters who are anything other than a #GirlBoss or completely hysterical, it's so annoying because female characters can have elements in their stories that aren't there for men, so having more compellingly written female characters just means more good stories are possible, it's infuriating that they can't work that out

[@varianmidoriya1194]

Here’s the point this video is trying to get across for those of you in the comment sections who didn’t see it. Women characters can be written as women characters with women problems and desires. But they are characters just the same as men are and such problems and desires need to go beyond being a woman and no matter what need to be fleshed out. This for every minority. The video isn’t being misogynistic when pointing out the basic facts that the representation that we desire on screen means nothing if it is not GOOD representation. Minorities need to see themselves reflected not only in gender, skin color, sexuality, or religion but experiences. HUMAN experiences. The video does not neglect mentioning the good female characters we get, but emphasizes that these characters SHOULD be more than 2D. They should be full human characters that oftentimes the story falls short of even when coming so close. You can love these women for being fun, spunky, and strong! No problem, I know I do. But at the end of the day, that’s all they got in comparison to their male counterparts and geez… that’s not enough.

[@TheGalacticWest]

The absolute best female character in the "MCU" is Karen Page. And I think Wanda (other then not getting held to any standard by her cohorts after she abuses people) is actually good in MOM. Its realistic that a human would go on a rampage because they lost something they made up (Mental illness).

[@KVoinre]

karen page absolute girlboss. mom wanda felt a bit flat in my option (but ive never been a fan so idk lol)

[@tofutopper6920]

Karen page is a girl boss, I agree. I'm watching season 2 of daredevil and its awesome how she is at being a boss.

[@immortaldemon]

i think wanda has an excuse in that the darkhold book was influencing her.

[@KVoinre]

@@immortaldemon you can have a character corrupted without her personality being cardboard like

[@andrewpatterson3703]

Naw son it's not realistic, even with mental health issues. It's literally just bad writing...

[@CandyThePuppy]

Meanwhile me over here making all my main characters suffer, male _and_ female, and just having fun writing them as tragic but interesting OCs no matter their gender. Heck, I even have a _trans_ character in the making and it's been fun delving into what that mindset and lifestyle must be like! I don't think about diversity as something I MUST do, but instead as a fun way to step into the shoes of someone unlike myself to see what interesting stories come out of it! Definitely seems the MCU women are all tasteless and robotic. Not very fun. I shall counterbalance that by making a PLETHORA of well rounded, interesting female, and male, leads, who all suffer, learn, and grow equally. I don't write all tragic characters, but I enjoy doing such things for my super powered ones you would expect to find in the MCU.

[@maxxpheonix8470]

Im pleasently surprised. This is good faith

[@Dylasophical]

I appreciate that. I tried to be genuine here.

[@callumarcher8111]

I think the problem isn't necessarily that they don't know how to write female characters, it's that they aren't focusing on writing good stories and are throwing everything at the wall right now. The MCU after Endgame is quantity over quality and the majority of characters, both male and female, aren't well fleshed out if they were introduced late in the cycle. In all of these cases where characters fall flat, there is the core there for good storytelling but its cast aside in favour of the spectacle and making a point.

[@Jgotmilk555]

"She's a woman! Good enough." lol, funny line! Great video. :)

[@Dylasophical]

Thank you! I'm glad you enjoyed it!

[@dgurlie-0273]

I think… you’re absolutely right!

[@Dylasophical]

Thank you!

[@ThisisDaniel]

I wholeheartedly agree, this was a fair and balanced analysis.

[@Dylasophical]

I appreciate that!

[@ftwnoobbuster]

This video encompasses EVERYTHING I’ve been saying about how they are writing female MCU characters. Thank you I 100% agree with you

[@abdulazimnaushad]

You know I’d like to stress how female characters in Marvel movies are not a problem its the way they’ve been written. Scarlet Witch was one character I'd say they were getting right but then fucked it up in MoM ruining and blatantly ignoring that entire arc in WandaVision where she learned by the end that her fake reality over the lives of innocent ppl was not worth it, oh don’t you dare tell me "But She was influenced by Darkhold" easily one of the worst plot devices i have ever seen as it only served as a very weak justification of her actions and no other sides or impact of it was really shown we didn’t see how dangerous it was just some bland telling of it exacts a heavy toll and all that bull crap. Don’t know how to put this in a better way but Marvel should take a page from the recently released Predator prequel Prey, just look at how they wrote the lead female character Nari in that film, nothing one-dimensional about her, and even though she was made fun of because she was a woman she proved herself in a way that was not only not toxic but also in a way that allowed us to root for her as a character and see her succeed.

[@K05H]

I was with you until you the end. Prey's protagonist was quite one dimensional in her non-stop drive to be the "best" warrior in her tribe. In the end it cost her several members of the tribe, her brother and judging by the end credits, the entire tribe. For someone that took on a creature of legend, had several near death experiences, that lost friends and her brother to this monster. She was pretty much the same character by the end. She was emotionally and mentally unaffected by all the death and destruction she just survived. She was just so damn pleased with herself to finally be War Chief. I will admit, it's still a way better movie than The Predator (2018).

[@skeptical_aristotle]

I love this video. Adding it to my “why you can learn from KZbin” playlist. I just have 3 points i wanted to mention where I differ from your otherwise perfect points. I think you’re understating Gamora’s writing. Her regression in endgame was painful precisely Because she’d completed such a great multi-film arc. And she’s interesting from her first movie because she is powerful without being OP and flawed without being a cliche. I’m also sad you don’t include pepper Potts as a strong female character. No she doesn’t get the screen time of she-hulk but she begins as Tony’s capable indispensable and respected but overlooked assistant into not only a love interest but also a ceo-and better ceo than him-who uses that position to overrule him in several cases. She even gets super powers and a super suit. Both gamora and pepper Potts had the potential to be better characters than captain marvel or she hulk if they had been given solo movies in phase 2 Hawkeye is an undeveloped character but I don’t think he’s a male Mary Sue. He’s interesting because he’s just a really talented human trying to keep his head above water with meta humans, but along with black widow, sees the world in terms of shades of grey and sometimes getting dirty. Where hulk, cap, Tony, and Thor have the power and guilt to be more fixated on uncompromising righteousness. They Hawkeye show was my favorite Mcu show but still a bit disappointing because it didn’t completely deliver on the promise to flesh his character into a deeper and better developed character like it was sold on

[@Dylasophical]

Okay, I definitely missed Pepper Potts. She's a good character, and multiple people have mentioned that I forgot to mention her lol.

[@mrbecker7628]

Those writers will just downplay this video by labelling it as "mansplaining".

[@Dylasophical]

Absolutely. Many people don't take you serious unless you are the race or gender of the character you're talking about.

[@mrbecker7628]

But I learnt a lot about filmaking, scriptwriting and character development from these videos. 👍👍👍👍

[@Dylasophical]

@@mrbecker7628 Really? I'm glad to hear that! Even though a lot of us are just fans who think we know what we're talking about lol

[@digimonalvatrax2738]

What do you think about Nebula. I thought she was actually one of the best woman if not one of the best character in the guardians plus endgame MCU. Edit. Ok you did mention her.

[@bethanygribble]

As much as a cliche I sound, they need the Netflix writing team back. Karen Page was beautifully written from a woman falsely accused of murder to becoming an equal to Matt and Foggy. In Jessica Jones S1, Jess went from a lost girl controlled and manipulated by Kilgrave to breaking out of that vicious cycle of abuse by killing him. And there’s many more (Colleen, Dinah, Misty). These women are standout characters by themselves and aren’t narrowed down to one characteristic, plus some, if not most, still include social issues surrounding women. It can be done, they just need good writers at Marvel Studios.

[@antoniav.w.3082]

If you are looking for great female characters that Marvel created, watch Agents of Shield. I know its not part of the MCU but this series has done so many things right and is just a great show in general. There is a vast majority of well written female characters (May, Simmons and Daisy just to name a few) and also has quite a diverse cast.

[@bendu8282]

Hawkeye seems like a flat character at least in The MCU, he doesn’t go through a major change throughout the films but he does effect the characters around him like Nat & The Avengers. His skills were established since he was a trained shield agent who got his ass kicked throughout the films by super powered opponents while getting some wins so I wouldn’t even claim he’s a Mary Sue or Gary Stu. It be nice to explore his origin like the comics which I wish The Show Hawkeye could’ve done.

[@Dylasophical]

Agreed! That's why I mentioned him as an example of the double standard we often have. He does have a nice little arc in Endgame, but he's not very deep for the majority of his screen time.

[@bendu8282]

@@Dylasophical I guess I’d civilly disagree on the double standard argument on this account that he goes through smaller arcs but also struggles and barely coming out on top these movies as a weaker character then his other fellow members, Black Widow even gets more wins then he does in fights, he’s a character who struggles and goes through obstacles but he’s not to complex, his mindset always seems the same which is why for me MCU’s Hawkeye is a Flat Character which is very different from a Mary Sue or Gary Stu. Yes all three don’t go through major complex arcs but what makes flat characters work and those other two options don’t is that they either help the other characters around them change for better or worse basically influencing the characters in the story to their beliefs and they’re not perfect characters themselves, not majorly changing doesn’t mean there is no actual growth or arcs just that while they do go through a journey it isn’t to really change them but to change others. Hawkeye helps Black Widow remind herself that she can be a good person, as he gave her a second chance, he helps The Avengers remember that they’re a team who need each other as established in Age Of Ultron, when his wife lets him know that he is the glue that keeps them together and it shows all of them are butting heads with each other or dealing with their own problems but him a family man is able to remind them of what they’re trying to protect and if not protect , avenge, the innocent. The only negative change arc he goes through is inbetween infinity war and endgame off screen which if explored more could’ve shaved off his flat character status evolving him into a negative and positive change arc character but since they barley touch on it and since his personality isn’t that different from before I’d say he still holds his flat character status. His origins were briefly touched on in The Hawkeye show but one of the major issues is his story got mostly shafted if you ask me for Kate’s where I feel like it would’ve worked a lot better if both they’re stories balanced each other out and majorly impacted each other instead it feels like with the show that they’ll flip flop between they’re stories at a pretty slow pace which sucks honestly. Pacing is another problem these shows have I know some normies don’t want that MCU netflix show length but I’ll honestly take that because while they can stretch it out a little too much I’ll take that over shortening character development and stories majorly while mostly focusing on jokes which they do excessively with these new shows. I will say though I’m surprised you had MCU Kamala as a good example over Hawkeye I know this is your opinion/view but honestly while MCU Kamala is slightly better then her comic book counterpart her becoming herself isn’t much of a character arc in my opinion what is her call to action to be a hero this is one of the major issues I had with her during the woke all new all different run and now still in The MCU. Her character is basically the criticism you gave Kate Bishop, she’s usually an eccentric fan girl but besides that what is Kamala’s real identity? What is her selfless reasons to be a hero outside of selfish desires like fame or being a fan? This is why fans never took her that seriously and they still don’t now her character is just a fan girl in the marvel universe with selfish desires of fame she doesn’t have much a call to being a hero that’s selfless like most iconic characters. She needs more of an individual character outside of being an eccentric fan girl , becoming her true self and being a Muslim superhero because y’know diversity. Lines like it’s not the Muslim girls of jersey city who get powers turn people off for a reason, if Peter Parker said it’s not the Jewish boys in Queens who are seen on The Avengers I don’t think people would be interested in his character either. Tony Stark is Italian & atheist, Matt Murdock Is Irish & Catholic but they’re not defined by their beliefs or cultures because they are there own individual characters first and foremost. The same needs to be done for her honestly.

[@Brenilla]

I didn’t realize how many female mcu characters have main trait of “spunky” that’s an oof. And isn’t exactly what you want young girls learning. (Not that spunky is bad just they are gradingly “spunky” )

[@gerardcote8391]

I said this back about 5 yrs ago on another comment board. A good character should have at least 7 unique personality traits and 3 points of weakness. Take She Hulk in the show not the comics. 7 things about her that are unique. She's a lawyer. Yeah but so is almost the whole rest of the cast. She is a Hulk Yeah but so is Brice Banner. She is afraid of men. OK that's 1. Well maybe you get a supporting cast that has unique personalities. Since they are not Main they only need 3 positive and 1 negative that is unique to each. Nope they are all cookie cutter and interchangeable. Show full of lame characters.

[@mieshocked1450]

About Wanda and Dr. Strange 2: the movie says the Darkhold corrupted Wanda, making her wish (having her kids back) an obssession and controlling her mind/wills. Ok... but we AREN'T ABLE TO SEE HER GETTING CORRUPTED. And plus, De. Strange used the Darkhold and wasn't judged for it. A broken, emotionally instable woman uses the Darkhold and gets desperate to have her CHILDREN, the two beings she love the most in her life: *evil monster* An arrogant man f*cks the multiverse, doesn't care for human's lifes because they're villains (villains that were being controlled by a greater force except for Electro and Sandman), ruins his own relationship with arrogance and controlling, uses the Darkhold, possesses and violates a dead body and treats Wanda's pain as sh*t: *amazing hero!* What a great feminist apologist Marvel is, isn't it? Besides that Wanda seemed to forget about her husband, the reason of why she create the hex in the first place? Even though Wanda was a great character in the comics, she was also an "hysterical woman" that always snapped because of something. Everything she tries to do for her and other's good go wrong, and she takes all the blame and hatred. It's like if the universe has something against Wanda. Ok, in Dr Strange she was corrupted by the Darkhold, but in the comics she's not corrupted by anything, she just can't control her emotions, powers, feelings, and kill everyone by accident... lots and lots of accidents. Wanda had a tragic story, excellent powers and an amazing anti-hero arc, but even some of her fans want to see her suffering and being a villain. Dark Phoenix is the same insane woman that heroes stories love to write. When a man lose the control and breakes everything (cof cof hulk, dr strange, spider man cof cof), he's the poor meow-meow hero. When a woman gets insane after LOSING HER HUSBAND AND KIDS, she's wrong and evil. Wanda deserves better. I think they learned what to do since 90% of her fans hated her villain era, she's redeemed now and can have a second chance, and mainly, her happiness back.

[@adapienkowska2605]

"De. Strange used the Darkhold and wasn't judged for it." How not? Dr Strange was killed on one Earth and destroyed the other because of Dark Hold.

[@mieshocked1450]

@@adapienkowska2605 *OUR* Doctor Strange wasn't judged, and every version of him got corrupted like if it was his destiny to do the same (actually, the first version was naturally selfish and @ssh0le). To be fair, Dr. Strange doesn't even need a Darkhold to be worse than Wanda.... 🥱🥱

[@adapienkowska2605]

@@mieshocked1450 because he used it only once, and before that he thought that the dark hold is just a fairy tale. But the film showed that dr Strange is as corruptible as Wanda or even more so (as Wanda was corrupted only in one universe, not in at least two, and she didn't destroy two universes because of it).

[@mieshocked1450]

@@adapienkowska2605 *F*CK IT* how many times he used, he IS hipocrit and his third eye even appeared. And yes, surelly he is more corruptile than Wanda and have worse reasons to use the Darkhold, unlike Wanda that was a broken mother wanting to love her children again.

[@udontfeelsogood9037]

@@adapienkowska2605 He thought the Book of Vishanti was a fairy tale, not the Darkhold.

[@dodobarthel2249]

You are making some really good points and I completely agree about Whanda. But you don't seem to make a distinction between main characters and supporting characters. For example, Black Panther introduced a main character and a villain, both of which got a character arc, so it makes sense that the movie didnt have much time left to flesh out the supporting cast. Based on that I think Suri and Nakia were done quite well, a good base on which later movies can expand.

[@Dylasophical]

No, I don't. There are simply not enough main female characters to have a fair comparison. Which is why a lot of them don't get solid writing and SUCK. LOL

[@lydiamoon5235]

Peggy Carter, Nakia, and Shuri do not belong in your list of poorly written characters. First of all, how are you going to compare the character arcs of supporting characters to main characters. It's apples and oranges. Yes, Captain America, Iron Man, and T'Challa have better character arcs (Thor, not so much), but Duh! They have arcs that span multiple movies. We've only seen characters like Nakia and Shuri one time (to date), and they were side characters whose purpose was to flesh out the main character. Still, even after one appearance, I don't see how you can call them nothing characters. Even as supporting characters, both were instrumental in saving Wakanda and counseling and aiding T'Challa in BP......and Peggy Carter had just as much intelligence, heart, and nobility as Cap. She was always a great character. Now, when you examine apples to apples and compare Captain Marvel, Sersi, She-Hulk, and Kate Bishop to Captain America, Iron Man, T'Challa, and Hawkeye......well.....I can't argue with you there. The writers are doing them no favors.

[@Dylasophical]

I mean, thats fair. But because they have more female side characters, I was just digging through them all to see if any of them were good. But I see what you mean. We can't really compare Nakia to TONY STARK lol

[@jessedavisson701]

I agree with you. Though I do think those characters need more fleshing out for a solo outing. For now though they are second tier characters. Hoping they do better with Shuri as black panther. Usually when characters are innately awesome it is nice to see them overcome personal short comings, like Tony stark.

[@noahlarose7371]

Nakia actually had a lot more presence and agency than people give her credit for. Yes she was T’challa’s love interest, but she actually has motivations and a role within the movie that don’t center around him, with her being a covert ops agent who helps police neighboring countries and taking down trafficking operations. She is the one who advocates for Wakanda giving aid to their neighbors despite T’challa’s hesitance, and doesn’t let his opinion sway her on this. When she witnesses T’challa die, she pushes her pain aside to focus on saving his mother and sister, getting the last Heart-Shaped Herb to revive T’challa and restore his powers, and helped turn M’Baku and the Jabari into allies. Yes, she was partially motivated by her feelings for T’Challa, but she also expressed her desire to do these things but they were what was right, what she believed in. For real, she is one of the most dynamic heroines in the MCU and she only appeared in ONE movie. People need to stop sleeping on her.

[@lydiamoon5235]

@@noahlarose7371 I completely agree.

[@olgastepin1614]

Brilliant! That's exactly what happens when main characters are still being treated as supporting ones, as if they still don't deserve the screen/paper time that is given to them. Though I strongly disagree with two ideas. First of all, a lot of characters basically reduced to just their obsession with what an "other group of humans" say or do (even and especially those obsessed with sexual life, or wealth, or beliefts of others) - are still deep, believable, great, tragic or amusing, beloved or disgusting, - and many of them already classic. While I am actually interested in this type of characters. But there must be a story suitable for a reduced character: I suppose, it would better be reduced, to the struggle with the "rival group" and the inevitable problems of such obsessions, too. Other type of obsession, with either love interest or children, also doesn't make characters lack in depth. On the contrary! I first thought about writing a bit about romanticism and how characters of the period have been considered stronger, deeper and more attractive to the audience... but I'd better just write the name of Victor Hugo, who created lots of great examples. The MCU Wanda is surely far from the said level of fiction characters, but certainly a well-developed romantic heroine.

[@omgbunnyy]

oi nebula is pretty solid tho

[@AliRadicali]

I think the very same mindset that sees female characters as 'representation" is what is preventing those kinds of writers from writing compelling female characters. Because these characters are supposed to "represent" entire demographics, they're not allowed to be flawed individual human characters. They're completely alien because they're not designed as "real" characters but rather as the ideal avatar of [demographic]. That means they can't have flaws, thus they can't have character growth either. I don't think it's a coincidence that the overwhelming number of interesting, compelling, tragic or humorous characters were played by (white) guys. People are not going to see a Captain Jack Sparrow as a disparaging commentary on alcoholism among white men. Since the writers are not allowed to take any risks with the protected groups, ironically, the end result is that all the fun characters are straight white and male.

[@BRONZALiVE]

I actually think dr strange in his first film is equivalent to a Mary Sue, he basically learns all the powers quickly and is basically the greatest magic user in the mcu in like under a few months, we are just told he is amazing and he reads tones of books and can take information fast, to me he’s similar to Rey in Star Wars, yet people overlook this in dr strange 1 he is a Gary Stu in that film when it comes to gaining his powers, however he does have a solid arc unlike Rey and other female characters

[@silverraigirideviluke]

But thats the thing, just learning things fast is not a problem, its not earning them. I'd have no problem with rey or captain marvel if they went through heartbreaking events, found themselves, became good people despite the pain they suffered and then gained immense power. But they didnt, they complained a bit and got what they wanted. Dr strange made a grave mistake, he was humbled, he was hurt, he lost his favorite profession, he learned to trust others where he before thought that he was the only capable person, and even when he became powerful he was still not infallible, he was almost bodied in his first encounter with a bad guy. All of this is why i dont have a problem with him gaining his powers so quickly and efficiently.

[@AliRadicali]

I disagree. I think he's a great contrast to all the female heroes who get their powers handed to them without any effort or sacrifice: Dr. Strange starts out as an extremely gifted surgeon who is also utterly selfish and an asshole. He has talents and status, sure, but he also has glaring character flaws that he has to overcome to become a real hero. Losing the use of his hands, and thus his livelihood and self-image as a surgeon is what starts him on his hero's journey where he does eventually *earn* his gary stu powers. The very fact that he has flaws which he needs to overcome to become his best self is what makes dr Strange not a Mary Sue.

[@adapienkowska2605]

@@silverraigirideviluke " if they went through heartbreaking events, found themselves, became good people despite the pain they suffered and then gained immense power" have you watched Capitan Marvel? Working in the military required from her a lot, she had to overcome many obstacles, to gain her powers - her mentor and friend died, she almost died and was abducted by an evil militaristic empire that wiped her memories and made her a war machine, teaching her to abound all her emotions. How that is not overcoming heartbreaking events and becoming a good person despite suffering? Rey had no control over her dark side and was constantly abounded by every person close to her. Up until the last episode, she wins mostly with help from others. How is that different to Luke?

[@silverraigirideviluke]

@@adapienkowska2605 no, i didnt watch the atrocity called captain marvel, and exactly for the reason that what you wrote is inconsequential. For another person what capatin marvel went through would have been terrible events, but she reveled in what she did, at no point was she against what she was doing in the name of the empire, so to her none of that was actually bad. And that matters despite her memory loss, because none of it had any effect on her when she regained them, she just took all that info, shrugged and went on with her plans, that is not what a person suffering does. She overcame nothing, she was a good person who was misinformed, then she was suddenly not, she did not care about any of her two worldviews in a sense that it damaged her emotionally. Are you even aware of how many people say that the movie would have been 2000 times better with the single change of her having a breakdown when she finds out the truth? Because that would have been overcoming difficulty. In regards to rey, all her problems with the dark side are non-prevalent until episode 9, and that was a trainwreck, so dont even try that route. Also, she always wins with the help of others? You seen the sequels? She defeats dozens of grunts alone, won 1v1 against kylo ren, defeated palpatine with about as much help as the guy had, canceling each other out, bodied dozens of royal guards, yes with kylo, but that still a 1v6 in essence. She barely ever has help, and when she does its against many enemies at once.

[@adapienkowska2605]

@@silverraigirideviluke so, you are judging the film you haven't watched? XD No, she just didn't know the empire was the culprit. At the beginning, she thinks the empire was attacked by malevolent species that can impersonate others to gain power, bc that was all she knew. After she found out that she was on the wrong side and what they did to her, she started fighting with the empire. How she went on with her plans? Her plan, until she found out about herself, was to return to the empire, not to fight them and help the Skrulls. How is that going on with her plans? She won only because she rejected the teaching of Supreme Intelligence about rejecting emotions (she embraced her own) and learnt to believe in herself. She has a breakdown after finding the truth, and people around her (especially her friend) had to help her go thought that. I suggest either watching the films or not sleeping on them. And I get that it may not be somebody's cup of tea (it is the only Marvel film with 5 acts, I guess it is too much for some people), but you don't have to make up excuses for not liking it. I am not a fan of Fast and Furious, but I don't go and say how these films don't have any internal logic and how there is nothing connecting these random people and why should they trust and fight for each other. No, it is not irrelevant earlier (it is one of the main reasons why she connects with Kylo Ren and why Luke refuses to teach her and with her emotional turmoil and inability to achieve what she wants - it is not to win war for the Rebels). She won with Kylo Ren with Finn's help, and Kylo was wounded and emotionally distraught in that fight (he just killed his father). Luke, in the first film, uses force to shoot the Death Star and in the next film lives after facing Death Vader alone. The sequels just didn't have as strong antagonists as the original trilogy had, so her wining/escaping is actually more believable than what Luke achieved.

[@nova.miller]

Black Widow is an exception in my opinion.

[@Kagiso22]

Honestly I don’t need to see my male or female characters come into their powers. I just want to see them struggle and overcome a struggle. I don’t need a black panther movie about Tchalla learning how to use his powers, if him learning how to be a good ruler and person is enough. I don’t need to see Hawkeyes training, but I did want to see what happened with him spiralling into becoming the Ronin. He was already an experienced agent but he had to battle greatly with the loss of his family to end up becoming the Ronin.

[@johanneazcuy9997]

Wanda had to kill vision to save the universe. Then she took a whole town hostage. Basically torturing them. Then in her quest to find happiness she sacrificed what's left of her humanity along with being possessed by the darkhold...that IS a character. That's an arc. A negative one but STILL an arc.

[@Dylasophical]

I mentioned that he had a good arc until Multiverse Of Madness. Her "arc" in that movie was absolute shit and based on bad character building. But yes, she's one of the better female characters in the universe.

[@johanneazcuy9997]

@@Dylasophical but her arc in that movie was a continuation of Wanda vision. She was a VILLAIN in Wanda vision. Her taking that town hostage proves she's selfish. Her actions in Dr strange made perfect sense. It was her breaking point after all the trauma she's endured. I don't know if we can look at these marvel properties as individual shows or movies. They're way too interconnected at this point. I'm NOT saying that's the best way to write movies but it made sense. She has a shot to have everything she ever wanted after sacrificing everything she ever had. Plus can't forget about the darkhold. She was a villain at the end of Wanda vision. Dont let the show horned Agatha character tell you otherwise. Wanda is not a good person by the end of that show. In my opinion. I agree with everything else you said tho. I feel the same. The worst offender might captain marvel or she hulk.

[@johanneazcuy9997]

@@Dylasophical also I don't mean to come off like a dick. Lol I'm sorry if it's coming off that way. Your content is great! 😊

[@Dylasophical]

@@johanneazcuy9997 No , you're okay! I embrace civil debates on this channel.

[@johanneazcuy9997]

@@Dylasophical I truly appreciate that.

[@MF_R]

The whole point of She-hulk is that she comes from a boring normal girl to a full on hero, you cant do that without writting mundane things like you said in the start of the video, she comes to a poitn where she IS dependent of She-Hulk, she becomes more confident and stronge, you cant ignore that and say that she has 0 characterization, tho i do agree on what you mean in this video.

[@Timmeh_The_tyrant]

Omg… really? You have zero clue about the actual character .

[@Dylasophical]

Maybe she'll have a complete change and revelation in the later episodes. It's possible.

[@mcleod56ify]

Agree with these points I mean anime can give us good like able female characters

[@arieloliver3219]

2:35 I would say is different, mostlt because bruce gives her his blood so that she doesn't die, not a couple of drops that turns her like an infection (didn't knew that's how radiation works but whatever)

[@classyrobot5648]

I truly, genuinely wish Marvel wasn't complete trash at making good female characters. She Hulk seemed so good in the comics, then Hollywood stepped in and... well, Hollywood stepped in. They ONLY know how to look good

[@thorodinson6625]

There is one female character who I think is handled extremely well: Ms Marvel. Not only is everything she does relatable, she goes through struggles both from her family and from her hero life, and nothing is too easy from the beginning; not even saving a little boy from falling. She matures as the episodes pass, and each one (aside from ep 5) shows this pretty well. By the end of ep 6, she has achieved her goals despite the difficult odds. That's a character. As for She-Hulk: Since the series isn't over I don't think it's a bright idea to add her to this category yet. We should just wait till the final episode before analyzing her journey.

[@inazuma3gou]

Frigga is presented as the only stable one in completely dysfunctional Odinfamily. What does America Chavez believe in? Bees bad, bees scary, bees must be destroyed

[@Jamesthor]

Mighty Thor learned something! She learned a cute phrase to say when she is going to end the fight. Neat huh?

[@Dylasophical]

Absolutely! She learned how to quip.

[@javitelee9562]

Honestly? I think characters like Kate Bishop are what we need in media as a whole. She's not a badass girl who spits the same speech against the white hetero men, nor a rebel idiot who disrespects her seniors cause she thinks she is better than them. She's a talented archer with the desire to protect her mother, while being a Hawkeye fangirl and uncovering a mystery that affected the whole city. She's not a corny cardboard cutout with the only purpose of being the protagonist. She is a badass good girl that actually goes through an arc, about how the people that came before her (Eleanor or Clint) don't define who she really is. She learns about responsibility, not by suffering the lack of it, but by watching others abuse AND carry responsibilities that affect others or themselves, like Eleanor, Yelena or Echo. Clint works as her mentor exactly because he carries his responsibility as Ronin, and by watching and helping these people overcome nor confront these responsibilities, she learns to confront her own. Small bits like the Pizza dog are my favorite exactly cause of that; what could be a bigger responsibility for a young woman than a living being in her life? Kate is not a Mary Sue, at least mostly and for me. For me, by learning from Clint and Eleanor, and by helping with Echo's problems with Kingpin, she became a hero.

[@thejakker6369]

Bruh. She's a teenage gymnast, dancer, rich girl who smarts off to Clint and can outsmart/outfight hardened ADULT MALE MERCENARIES.... All that screams MARY SUE.🤨

[@javitelee9562]

@@thejakker6369 it doesn't matter if she is rich and or talented. That's just a plot device that allows her to stand to the villains. Kate is flawed, and she learns during the series. If you want a Mary Sue, watch She Hulk, who apparently can use the Hulk Powers better than fucking... Hulk. Hawkeye is dragged down by it's underwhelming use of Kingpin; not by it's protagonist.

[@awhyobafemi4626]

I totally agree with you, say what you will about the MCU's Kate Bishop, but she was genuinely down to earth even when she should be in the clouds with her incredible abilities, and when she witnessed Clint at his weakest moments, struggling with his hearing loss brought me to tears, instead of trying to remind Hawkeye that he s old news like most Gen Zs would have done, she just wants to be part of his world, and she sees it as an honour fight along side her male hero. This is why I appreciate Jane Foster s Thor in Love and Thunder, she wasn't trying to be better than Thor, she wasn't trying to replace him, or render him useless, she was just glad to be part of the action, and also glad to be seen as an active member of the team. Too bad many white male characters in the M-SHe-you as suddenly getting dummer

[@andrewpatterson3703]

Nah son she's got Mary Sue vibes. She's not as bad as She Hulk, I agree, but she's got major Mary Sue vibes. Her whole existence is to be the young diverse add-on. She's a derivative of Hawk Eye, it's pretty much inescapable that she would be poorly written. Just my opinion

[@SchnookieC]

What they don't know how to write is likeable, funny, interesting or compelling female characters

[@technocore1591]

"People are more than what they're born as" Ha! Ironic considering that could be the catchphrase of the superhero genre.

[@eternallylearning2811]

yeah this not just an movie problem it's an sexism problem in general a male character usually has more effort into them it's been going on for ages

[@zero.Identity]

the problem is wanting to create a character that just appeals to the extreme feminist community. making a movie thats reason to be there is basically just: look! a female hero!! and she is a STRONG woman!!" and not: lets make a good movie about that character that happens to be female and the whole storie should be: "...."

[@eternallylearning2811]

@@zero.Identity Well I just happen to disagree that is a problem just an newer one the one I'm typing about is way way older then that I try to keep a level opinion about feminist stuff both sides can be iffy

[@zero.Identity]

@@eternallylearning2811 well that IS a problem, but its not the problem these movies have. because marvel / disney with rey etc they all just want to create something that goes viral. the problem you are adressing is also real, but not what this is about. thats something that started back then when films were basically invented. because it, of course, included the back then existing gender "rules" etc. so that kind of carried on as a bad habbit.

[@eternallylearning2811]

@@zero.Identity yeah true thanks for your acknowledgement

[@no.1spidey-fan182]

Mantis is actually a BEAST in the comics. They did well with her in the Guardians game🔥

[@nickcoltz1526]

I dont hate these women character, i really dont, but everytime i went to see and give them a chance, they're just not that interesting. They're either "badass and emotionless just because" or bubbly personality who's just lucky. I dont mind strong female character, but these character are strong female charicature. They're nothing more than what you see, no depth, no characterization, no development, and no character.

[@winterking2510]

I really hope Marvel producers writers reads this. They need ALL the help they can get!

[@zero.Identity]

example: (i know it aint marvel) Good female character: Matrix 1 - 3 Trinity Bad female character: Matrix 4 Trinity at first a really good character, a MAIN character. You could have basically made Neo and Trinity switch roles and everyone would have loved the movies just as much. IF Trinities story would have still been as fleshed out as Neo's is. which is not the case with She Hulk and Hulk. I know Trinity is not the female equivalent of neo but thats not needed for the example to point out what its supposed to point out. but in the fourth movie it was basically reduced to: she is the character that neo loves. and she loves him. so now she is just the objective "key" for neo to have and suddenly the matrix is broken. Like... what? the thing is: gender doesnt matter for a good character. PERSONALLITY matters. i dont give a fuck if its a man, woman or an alien that is kinda both at the same time. as long as their personality is not just "i am a man" or " i am a woman" or in the other example "i dont have a real gender. that is NOT a personality trait. thats something you shouldn't give a shit about. just make a character as you usually would for a great movie, and then randomly decide which gender they get. roll a dice. and i will PROMISE you, it will be a good character even it the dice says its a nonbinary fish-human. As long as the story is not based around it. but its just a random fact.

[@CandyThePuppy]

4:00 Meanwhile, me over here only gettin' bullied by only other girls/women since birth it seems. 😅

[@Dylasophical]

Your experience is just as valid as Jen's.......

[@shannonjones8877]

Now i haven't actually watched the show (because i don't watch much tv and don't have disney+ anway), so i'm kinda basing this off a review of She Hulk i watched a little bit ago, but i'm coming at this from the perspective that they are intentionally writing Jen as a flawed character. So yes, her character is informed by her struggles to succeed in corporate America amongst her masculine counterparts, and thus her perception of men is heavily biased. I've seen people call these out as contradictions but to me it looks like it's being done on purpose. She thinks she knows herself so well but then we're shown that's not the case. She thinks she knows better than men about everything but Bruce shows us that's not the case. She thinks she's had it so much harder than Bruce while spouting off how bad he's had it while not even consciously acknowledging how significant his struggles have been. She talks about how all of the problems she deals with come from men and then (it looked like?) the first villain she goes up against is a woman. It honestly looks to me like they're setting her up to get plenty of room to grow over the course of the series. I guess whether they manage to follow through on it just remains to be seen. I know better than to get my hopes up, but at least it looks like the potential is there.

[@Dylasophical]

Good comment! I think you might have a point.

[@thegenjutsuuser]

I believe the film industry is going through a period of reverse Renaissance, I would be lying to my self that I am enjoying the current learning in how not to write a character

[@fishertheadore6095]

Could We please get a Superheroine wife and mother in the MCU that's not a Raging psychopath like wanda aka the scarlet witch.