Marx and Tolstoy Helped Me See the Limits of Liberalism - Vijay Prashad (1/4)

[@itzenormous]

I love Vijay Prashad. He's spot on about Liberals. Today, they're essentially Pro-Choice, Pro-Gay Marriage Conservatives. They believe in hierarchy, meritocracy, and are largely, white collar, professional, managerial class suburbanites.

[@thefamousmuslim]

Once again Vijay Prashad is amazing as always.

[@Rockinintomordor]

Amazing seeing how he's been principled all along. (Perhaps growing in his fashion sense lol) It's really cool hearing about his beginnings and where he comes from. Now he's gotten Noam Chomsky's ear, helped found the Tricontinental, and has kept inspiring so many people.

[@debyte]

'Resurrection', along with Emile Zola - 'Germinal', made me a Marxist.

[@mikeoli]

Ive have seen some documentaries about communities in Scandanavia that live in a communal style of life. They are not related by blood It was interesting but I do not know if I could live that life now that I am older. I believe that life is a version of the extended family which I believe is an excellent environment to experience and live in for it seems as natural as day and night

[@patrickaucoin2344]

reality is waiting for us, cheers for the Real News!

[@DavidByrne85]

Yeah. Just as well we have balanced, integrated people like you around to help move us past these projection based conflicts.

[@JoeTonan]

16:26 Tolstoy's Resurrection is formative to the author.

[@mikeoli]

It has fun writing back and forth with you. Good luck to you and yours,

[@alhazed]

Communism and Socialism is a reaction to the extremes of Capitalism. Socialism and such social philosophies are a growing mode of thinking in the US (e.g. Growing trade unions to apply pressure to increase min wage), South America (to use the wealth of their nations to help its people and strengthen their economies), Norway, Sweden ect ect, they are around and they are a natural antidote to extremes in capitalism, monopoly and elitism. Those are just the facts.

[@maremue111]

John Drain Sweden is a neoliberal country. You probably think about Sweden in the times of Olaf Palme.

[@alhazed]

You brought the village metaphor up, not me. Btw yes it does work on larger scales, Democracy was an invention of the ancient Greeks, people like Marx realised the new injustices of industrialisation and his ideas are based on those societies, all our civil rights successes came from our understanding of how to fight against an elitist system for the benefit of the general public, it has many successes but its a constant fight.

[@rvdrvd1000]

So, you feel OK with telling me what I can think, and what I can include depends on what you are thinking. You might be overestimating your capacities a little. I didn't remember making the "US is broke, because.." statement, I intended to say "largely because". This kind of thing can be an issue when one is debating 4 people on four subjects simultaneously, and being aware of two or three others in your periphery at all times.. I used the numbers from CCPP and the sub-prime mortgages.

[@sinekonata]

Brilliant !

[@alhazed]

You said that humans were evolved to be selfish and jealous, i can give you plenty of examples today and through history how that is not the case. War for example is very easy to point to as negative, but positives are more quiet, like democracy, charity, literacy, the end on slavery in many countries, equality. Theres still much to do, its never ending, the fact is we need more democracy so we can work for the benefit of all instead of just a few.

[@rvdrvd1000]

I do admire the ability to misrepresent what is said and completely without inquiry as well. I tell you that you are not qualified to take that attitude toward me based on my life, and you represent what I said as telling you that you are unqualified to talk and that you can't say what you like. I say that I know how the Constitution was destroyed and you drop the point. I've met you people before.

[@rvdrvd1000]

I am not referring to co-opted businesses, or Ma and Pa getting along famously at the bicycle repair shop.

[@theredscary1]

What I wouldn't give to see Vijay Prashad debate Fareed Zakaria

[@alhazed]

Likewise mate! Have a enjoyable and healthy life if we don't meet here again! :)

[@Vierotchka]

it certainly has eliminated most of the poverty in Switzerland and continues to do so. The poor in Switzerland are rich by Indian standards.

[@stp52x]

I'm glad more people are begining to understand this. If I had a nickle for every time I heard "Communism failed with the Soviet Union." or "Socialism is oppression." or "Marxism is nothing more than intellectual banter." I'd be a millionaire and I wouldn't be a socialist right now.

[@alhazed]

Sure in once sense i think you're correct but its not the full reality though, for example, a village works together to gather food to feed themselves as a village, the children play together, the village has social rules and taboos that every person to some degree partakes in, if the parents are killed maybe other villagers take it upon themselves to look after them, teach them the history of the village. Life is both individual and social and exclusively neither.

[@rvdrvd1000]

It is difficult to respond to a withdrawn statement and I sure get my fair share of those.

[@alhazed]

No its capitalism that is the exploiter, its in the title. Socialism is to express the will of the people, unions were crushed because capitalists moved their manufacturing aboard to take advantage of exploitable labour. Unions will eventually grow to include all people through communication as an antibody to exploitation, and the perpetual war of the social and the individual will also evolve.

[@MaximilianKohler]

"Capitalism fails for the precise reason socialism fails, human nature (self interest)." Actually that's the reason why capitalism fails and socialism prevails. Those human flaws can be regulated, curbed, and restrained through socialism. And I'm not talking about government owned means of production. I'm talking about government social support programs, socialized medicine, etc. that the Nordic countries have that you erroneously think the US can't afford.

[@EarthFirst2012]

The Mondragon Corporation is a corporation and federation of worker cooperatives based in the Basque region of Spain. Quite successful. It is definitely not "capitalism." Read about it.

[@mikeoli]

Difficult to do in a large population, That is where family is needed and it is the most important part of all our lives, I feel bad for people who do not have a family they can turn to in times of trouble

[@rvdrvd1000]

Then how do explain the failure of this system in Spain, Greece, Italy, Russia, China, Cuba, Britain etc., With magic?

[@alhazed]

Actually the comment i made about communism being a reaction to capitalism is directly taken from Marx's writings and yet you seem to agree with it. I agree that Capitalism is an ASPECT of human behaviour and if unregulated is destructive. But thats too broad a statement to stand alone. Humans are also intuitively social and that aspect is part of our success as a species. You cannot simply exclude that from your outlook and expect to be accurate. Both exist at all times in different amounts.

[@alhazed]

Well no i disagree, he makes some perfectly good points. I have yet to meet anyone who knows everything and is correct all the time, i will say that i value some of his contributions.

[@alhazed]

Because thats not totally true. People are selfish sure so theres that aspect, but people are also inherently social. We rely heavily on each other for many aspects we take for granted and we have done ever since we climbed out of the trees.

[@alhazed]

Nobody is 100% right. If you read my last comment you would see i just implied that too, however humans are not just simply selfish and jealous, that is a drastic over simplification on humans, how about charity? Guilt? Empathy? These are social traits that stand equal and opposite to the focus of the self. The battle for social or personal justice is one every generation must face or risk losing ground, but neither will ever be ultimately victorious.

[@TheVeganLeftist]

It's far less to do with "good" or "greedy" and far more to do with the allocation of resources and who controls those resources, that is, who has a voice. In capitalism, the State is a shadow cast across society by business, which can't properly function without a stable State apparatus, and so those with money (capitalists) have more say than the poor regarding how things are run and distributed. Socialism is a challenge to that system and doesn't rely on our personal morality.

[@rvdrvd1000]

I am misinformed? I'll try to explain something to you. When you quote someone, it is essential that you quote what they have said, otherwise it not a quote. You could paraphrase, but again, it would have to retain the essence of what has been said, and I didn't state or imply any such thing. My statement was that social spending represents the great majority of the debt at 65%. Now, does 65% represent the majority, or do you use a mathematical principle that is unknown to me?

[@tamsenmillerbaum]

depends on the use, can be one word or two.

[@DavidByrne85]

Paul Jay is fucking fantastic.

[@alhazed]

Well thats fair enough. For me, like i said, you dont have to take the ideas of Marx and Socialism wholesale, just the bits that make societies better. Marx wrote for an industrial age not for farms, its about people coming together for justice, im happy to have competition, but theres many aspects to modern life that are cruel and immoral, the only way to change them is through social movements, they are here to stay as long as theres injustice.

[@genghisdon1]

Thanks Where is part 2?

[@alhazed]

Marxism didn't fail, it never really happened. If anything it is gaining more ground nowadays than ever before. For example a growing disillusionment with extreme capitalism has spurred some people in South America, Europe and even the US to get together and change the hierarchy in their businesses so everyone has a voice, a share and an incentive to work together to make their businesses successful and they are doing rather well.

[@TehTr0nik]

That modulated white noise in the background is very annoying!

[@tmcthree]

Anyone is one word.

[@distortiontildeafness]

I don't see part II

[@mikeoli]

I am not a fan of Michael King A fake if their ever was one. I agree with what you wrote

[@alhazed]

No you have me wrong, I'm not a Marxist. Some aspects are beneficial for people others not so much, same as Capitalism. I'm not prepared to throw the baby out with the bath water. "Capitalism fails to realize that life is social, Communism fails to realize that life is personal The good and just society is.. a socially conscious democracy which reconciles the truths of individualism and collectivism." - MLK

[@tmcthree]

And in the above context it's...

[@dongsdongsdongs]

It's interesting that your can mistake "putting platitudes together" for "conveying information"

[@alhazed]

Id say that most business is regulated to be more socialist, but they are not socialist in nature, they're capitalist. Hence the need to regulate slavery out of business or regulate decent health & safety and so on. capitalism has a bottom line that is crucial to its nature, theres nothing wrong with profit incentive but it need to be monitored to promote good health socially.

[@rvdrvd1000]

At what point did communism eliminate poverty?

[@alhazed]

Most people seem to follow the mainstream thought and we both know who controls that. The US population is much more afraid of Socialist ideas then Europe (but we too have our zealots for sure!), its very strange that these individuals hold beliefs that work against themselves and they wonder why they're in the shit.

[@alhazed]

Theres a big difference between a co-oped bussiness which is based upon Marxist principles (like it or not) and Ma and Pa business. Thats just something you're gonna have to live with.

[@alhazed]

Well i don't know a great deal about his PHD plagiarism or stealing money from church, you maybe right about that, but I consider him a man that many have come to know as a great orator and promoter of successful peaceful protest for the civil rights of millions of Americans, opposing the Vietnam war, going to jail and ultimately dying for those noble causes..I don't rate Malcolm X above him, I think they're both very valid.

[@mikeoli]

what information would you like, own 1800 books 1200 other on sitck most on history from historians of all stripes what fact would make you be happy to read?

[@mikeoli]

I believe that the gov't has a duty to the people it serves and without money it can accomplish none of it. Before the Fed and a graduated income tax to pay for the debt the gov.t collected most of its domestic income from the taxation on alcohol, but with the advent of prohibition they lost that revenue with the help of people who love to tell u how to live. They created a whole new problem social and economic which the Morgan group saw a wonderful opportunity to give us central control of $

[@PrimeConsciousness]

I remember the good ol' days when YT lacked space Nazis.

[@alhazed]

Thats a bit of an existential argument. What is perfect? Nature? If so, then are we not natural too? Nothing is perfect, it's irrelevant and btw if we were perfect then that kinda pushes evolution aside doesn't it? Marx was not about being perfect, his work is about the dissemination of power and attempting to evolve democracy in an industrialised age. Those ideas are still evolving, as are the ideologies that oppose them.

[@alhazed]

Well there are many aspects to Marxism, it's not something you simply have to take wholesale or not at all. I think many people have misconceptions as to his opinions and contributions as well as Trotsky and many others, plus theres been quite a lot of propaganda developed from John Birch and many aspects that've seeped into people perceptions and made some fearful and dismissive without even an attempt at understanding, like how Communists and Anarchists have been treated in American history.

[@singlecellorganism13]

Socialism is predicated on the idea that man is inherently good and wants to be good. Capitalism admits man is selfish / foolish and then attempts to contain that within a market system (rather than military rulership by the power elites [which obviously capitalism has led to as well])

[@alhazed]

If it were true that we forget the lessons of the previous generations then you and I would not be sitting at our respective homes talking to each other on computers, we would be still living in the mud. But we are not because of the very lessons and experience each generation before us has contributed and our DNA derives from the most successful and adaptive of our species, like every other animal.

[@mikeoli]

Agree

[@alhazed]

"Being selfish and a social animal are not mutually exclusive." Yes, thats been the point ive been pressing, people are not JUST selfish, so if you want to describe our traits then you have to include the other aspects to be fair and accurate. You're wrong about democracies, its just the type we have, the Greek style was different and better in my opinion and yes they had slaves, so did the US. But if you expect thousands of years of social conditioning to abruptly change, you're not realistic.

[@jasondavila8318]

John Drain dialectic materialism, historical materialism explains this. Plenty of information on maxists.org✊

[@alhazed]

? Thats what Capitalist do to! Thats the princibles of supply and demand, fingure out what happens in certain scenarios and plan to do what works. What are you talking about? Do some reading before you make criticisms that have nothing to do with Marx and Communism.

[@alhazed]

Well no not really, Socialism and co-oped businesses are growing in South America now they are freeing themselves from the US, but like i said, its growing in the US and Europe. Heres a vid from this very news outlet reporting on it. /watch?v=Ww9VZkavChg

[@alhazed]

You're right..but already a bit late! :)

[@alhazed]

Without finances i think you'll find its hard for anyone to do anything. As far as the rest of what you say, its irrelevant, a Gov is just organised people who represent their masters, in a democracy its meant to be us, but when people allow Capitalism to run a muck then don't expect democracy, and thats where we are. Still, who built all that shit? And with whos money? Would you rather they didn't? Then disband your government and go straight back to the feudal times, living in the mud.

[@rvdrvd1000]

The Constitution is a long dead scrap of paper and concerns me not in the slightest. I am also disinterested in the issues of others.

[@MaximilianKohler]

I was talking about socialist programs in the Nordic countries then you included Russia and China in your list of countries that were supposed to be examples of those policies failing...

[@rvdrvd1000]

There you go, put the words into my mouth and then argue the nonsense that you, not I, created.

[@rvdrvd1000]

What is the difference then? I would be surprised to hear one pointed out, other than the word " Marxist" of course. Marxist theory is a geopolitical ideology and does not apply to a business.

[@alhazed]

huh? i did respond..i spelt something wrong and rewrote it, its below :)

[@alhazed]

A fake? Well he did more than you or i probably ever with for civil rights and he died for it, knowingly. So i don't know how you can call him a fake.

[@alhazed]

Oh right, so instead i should only listen to your opinion? I dont care if he wrote a foreword for a book where someone else calls him a Marxist, so what?

[@rvdrvd1000]

It must be some kind of Pavlovian response, every time I hear an Indian accent my mouth starts watering and I become intensely desirous for a Slurpee.

[@rvdrvd1000]

Of course not, is there something wrong with you?

[@alhazed]

Err just..no thats no true. Socialism is about dealing with the very real grievances that everyday people face thereby promoting fairness, Capitalism is about selfishness and thereby promotes competitiveness, both are relevant and integral to a society.

[@moestietabarnak]

when did capitalism did ?

[@mikeoli]

First why don.t you call it by it's real name instead of his make believe name

[@alhazed]

Well you may have a crystal ball, but i think thats no way to analyse the world. Marx's ideas help to form unions, unions fought for the working week, holiday/sick leave, health & safety regulations, min wage, the end of child labour in respective countries & many other aspects that people benefit from in reality. As for the whole "sin" thing, well no political or religious position has a monopoly on morality its a moot point.

[@MaximilianKohler]

Your statement was exactly what I quoted. I didn't paraphrase anything. I copy, pasted. "Didn't I just point out that the US is broke because of the social spending" Did you pull that 65% out of your ass? Look it up on wiki, social programs total 45%, and half of that is self-funded through medicare wage tax which is NOT contributing a cent to the debt. Learn where our debt comes from: /watch?v=EewGMBOB4Gg

[@rvdrvd1000]

Maybe at some point you will look at the numbers that represent spending and debt in the US and then know what you are talking about. Subsidizing companies, in the instances that it occurs, is a direct violation of free market principles and allowing tax breaks to corporations does not represent a subsidy by any definition of the word. You are boring me.

[@alhazed]

Well i think you're mad and im not a Marxist..so maybe its not Marxists..maybe its you, im not talking about people who don't agree with Marx, im talking about specifically you.

[@alhazed]

Err right, your a bit mad...

[@alhazed]

nurse! i think someone's off their meds!

[@mikeoli]

I believe in good governance It would be a great place to live in a representative democracy which rep ed the people. We both want the same thing. I just don't believe that it takes a village to raise a child

[@alhazed]

Yea, ..its a shame you wasted your time reading all that and yet you seemed to not even grasp the fundamentals. Never mind.

[@MaximilianKohler]

"the US is broke because of the social spending" Oh boy... you are horribly misinformed.

[@rvdrvd1000]

Then, in the case that you ever live in that imaginary system, you'll fit right in. The world needs slaves.

[@alhazed]

Yea, what about him? He was also a friend of Adam Smith, does that totally discredit "The Wealth of Nations" too? I'll repeat, me exposing your propaganda and asking you to prove your anti-Marx nonsense does not make me a Marxist.

[@distortiontildeafness]

free communism pls aka libertarian communism

[@alhazed]

No, Marx existed.

[@aclark903]

Because capitalist London gave him a library to write in. Most left wing states would have thrown him in prison.

[@rvdrvd1000]

Really? For the sake of your dignity, you should remove yourself from this discussion at once.

[@rvdrvd1000]

Of course it didn't happen, it failed every fucking time.

[@rvdrvd1000]

You're beginning to test my patience. Either name an instance in history in which that dreamy nonsense, asserted by a capitalist, was actually manifested in the history of communism, or admit that it was,and is, nonsense. Not only were the theories of Marxism completely at odds with the practice, the progenitors of the theories never in their lives lived under those theoretical absurdities. Engels and Fatso Marx lived by the benevolence of the capitalist, and that is a fact.

[@everythingisupsidedown9593]

Paternalistic Brahminism?

[@alhazed]

Me exposing your propaganda and asking you to prove your anti-Marx nonsense does not make me a Marxist. Theres no such thing as Marxianity Tell me where Marx wanted 100% taxation? Show me the proof that Marx was financed by the British monarchs to study Indian feudalism? Give me PROOF

[@rvdrvd1000]

More nonsense by presumption.

[@alhazed]

Yet another exhibition of bizarreness on your behalf. Have you ever stopped incessantly ranting and thought for a sec that you can't actually prove anything you say? That it's all based on a belief that you have? Does the irony elude you at all?