Mass Effect 2: Legion on Brainwashing

SPOILERS etc:
This is a conversation that shows how alien the Geth are. Legion is downright incisive on topics like this. I haven't seen this particular conversation avenue anywhere else, and it shows just how complex the issue is.
Note how his lights turn orange on the word "racist" for emphasis.
It makes the decision on his loyalty quest that much harder.

[@jakedge3]

Shepard: "Is it really okay to brainwash them into doing the right thing?" Legion: "It'd be racist not to."

[@Crimpyiff]

"Treating every species like one's own is racist. Even benign anthropomorphism." *everyone pulls out guns on each other* Me: ...'kay.

[@viperakmal]

That's the funny part. It was as if they put this dialogue intended to be satirical and cynical to what. After 9 years this dialogue is gold and still gold as it is... In games and particular this game towards the Geth, Legion is saying about treating every species like one's own is racists. Yet in our real world. If we treat other races differently. It means racists. Now that is what I called a subtlety satire.

[@jackkuro]

Tali and Legion are the best crewmembers. And maybe Garrus, but he's busy making calibrations.

[@Agent1W]

"Legion understood the logic of what I said, but he obviously fails to recognize that this also means that he has no sense of morality or free will as geth. No amount of intelligence will change this. He likes to think that the geth are a unique race in their own right, but no. They are machines meant to serve the quarians according to the three laws of robotics."--Agent W Shepard

[@nessesaryschoolthing]

Of course. But notice, he's talking about treating all races like they are identical. Treating every race as an equal is a given standard of moral practice. Acting as though all races have to conform to your races identity leads to a human asking an Asari "Why the hell is your skin so blue, ma'am?", and such things. This is the kind or racism he's talking about.

[@tyroneemail]

Paraphrased and applied to our reality; All Races are equal, but not identical. None is superior, they all have merits, they all have problems.

[@higglybiggly1174]

No, he's talking about treating every species like your own. This is a universe in which there are several distinct alien species. In some equality is not something they admire, like the Yagh, where treating a Yagh as equal while lesser is highly offensive

[@bliglum]

I LOVE LEGION!! The most interesting me2 character for me!

[@marduk1734]

0:43 Death Watch: make sure that xenos machine is spared. what a chad.

[@Promenius]

@Agent1W "If you think you have a soul, you have a soul." That's my stance on it. If any being, artificial or otherwise can ask itself the question about whether or not they have souls, then they have them. But yes, it comes down to Science vs Religion once again, seeing as nobody knows what a soul really is, or if they even exist.

[@LordGatar]

Shepard: 'Don't apply our morals to the geth.' Legion: 'That is logical.' KZbin translator: 'That's awesome.' GOOD JOB!

[@ahunmaster]

Though I don't like doing Renegade options often, I felt that this one gave a very good view on how people view other races and/or species and on the emotional atmosphere that is the Mass Effect Universe. Like Legion and (F) Shepard said, every race/species has their own view on how they do certain things. Though we should all treat each other equally, sometimes that isn't the best or right option.

[@StevXtreme]

@lordnimr0d It is explained in the game: it's a compounds of human amino-acids (basically DNA/RNA broken down to their building blocks).

[@Agent1W]

@lordnimr0d "The strengths of both, and the weaknesses of neither one," so said Saren Arterius, the fallen Spectre. Well said for an organic being that took upon synthetic upgrades. I suppose that is why Reapers need organics. Funny that Saren did have a soul, but he still fought beyond the grave when Sovereign turned him into something else. The Protheans? Well, you DO have the Collectors who serve the Reapers. They must have been spared for a higher purpose.

[@endershepard7117]

13 years later and imho this is still the most radical thought-provoking conversation in the history of video games. Shepard: If this was an organic race, it might be an ethical problem. Geth aren’t like organic life. Don’t apply our morality to them. Legion: That is logical. Tali: You agree with that? Legion: No two species are identical. All must be judged on their own merits. Treating every species like one’s own is racist. Even benign anthropomorphism. Legion: The minds of both forms of life can be shaped. Organics require time and effort. With synthetics, the replacement of a data file is the only requirement. Sometimes Renegade Commander Shepard illicitly the best response!

[@ShadowWolfRising]

i can't help but think about this scene during a part of an LP of Agarest War 2 i was reading (where a Dwarf and a Halfing have a conversation about.........what it was to be human.).

[@Lollocide]

@Pakun Because you are essentially forcing something to fundamentally change its views on a subject, which is 'bad'. Ironically, wiping them out (In essence, killing 'evil' robots) is considered good, because its allowing them their choice (Self-Determination) and then reacting to their Self-Determined path (By killing them all). I chose the re-write, because you know ME:3 is going to call on those Geth for future plotlines. Also dongs.

[@zzxcvb98]

@StevXtreme there are intrinsic differences between organic and synthetic thought processes, most notably organics are irrational while geth are driven by completely dispassionate logic.

[@Agent1W]

@Homecountry So that raises the academic question in the Mass Effect world, "What is the truth of all existence?" Because creating the geth, who is a sentient equal, is an astounding achievement for a mere mortal, sentient race(and quite a sickly one at that). And there's no telling which Mass Effect religion or philosophy is correct either.

[@Agent1W]

@Promenius I was simply quoting what my Shepard said, (that is, Agent W). I still can't believe that you can hack into something and control it, yet it has free will. If the Geth really do have free will, they can't be hacked. Alas, Engineers and Infiltrators do it all the time. This would have to be my strongest argument. They can talk free will all they want, but their will shall me MY will(when I hack 'em).

[@viperakmal]

*"Treating every species likes one's own race is racist."* Yet in our world if we treat other races differently. That is racist. *"A subtlety satire"* is what I would say. And considering that this video has been like what. 9 to 10 years old? It shows that our world in terms if racism never really that change. Nope... I don't think it changes at all. This dialogue is gold and still gold as it is.

[@Lyndonmaman]

There's no such thing as 'other races' on earth. The only higher form of life on this planet are Human beings, and the only differences between us are cosmetic.

[@viperakmal]

@@Lyndonmaman I did mention the word subtlety satire. The other races here is what every different race of humans is. The thing is human race are define by languages, color skins, eyes' shape, stereotype of cultures. Look... In Mass Effect series the most of the species that exist there represents races. And one of the race represents on what men's perverted thought upon what ideal woman should be and I'm sure you know what I mean. In our world. We keep on imposing the equality for all humans yet it was never achieved. And then Legion say about "treating every species like's one own race is racist". In our real world. Isn't that what we preached on every day? "All human are the same." "All human has the same right." "All human should be treated equally." What Legion said is satirical jokes. A cynical to our real world preaching upon equality that was never really that realize. It is also why I said it is old but still gold. Because humans never change. They will never be equal. They preach as if they want it. But in reality. No one actually wants it especially when they the dominant in certain country but no one is going to admit it.

[@Agent1W]

@Homecountry I suppose I can understand now. It's kinda hard to understand the concept of biogenesis(life coming from life) in Mass Effect. How does sentient life produce and create other kinds of sentient life, mechanical or biological? You make good points I agree with though. Only "gods" could create something equal to them, in their own image. I would suggest the Reapers but the Reapers are "Old Machines"...but who created them??? O_O

[@lazyeyestuffballs]

@Homecountry I don't know if he's the best but definitely one of the best. He's the best sniper in the game though, for those who have PC version its fun to get him early and watch him own.

[@Mysticgamer]

@iHateSpoilerz Yeah, so did that option give renegade points? I hate ME2 P/R system which seems to give you renegade points for asking questions.

[@HiIeric117]

@lordnimr0d Doesn't it make sense that the Collectors did some experiments on a small percentage of humans before liquidation? Besides, does it really matter?

[@Agent1W]

@Promenius You're right. The concept of a soul depends greatly on your religious perspective. But I'd like to consider how the quarians practice ancestor worship, or how the turians have a similar belief in spiritual omnipresence. Those two races believe in an afterlife, but the geth really don't. They all consider themselves programs or that sort. And here's another thing. What separates the geth from your typical LOKI, YMIR, or FENRIS mechs? They are machines too lol.

[@ReekoArch]

It's the way he addressed legion. Seeing him as "only a machine" and not a actual member of of the crew is a renegade choice.

[@Promenius]

@Agent1W True, but the geth are some of the only machines that are advanced enough to ask questions that are not already within their programming parameters. "DO - these - UNITS - have - A - SOUL?" "Who taught you that word?" "We - LEARNED - it - OURSELVES." Mechs are like calculators when you compare them to the Geth (who can naturally evolve) who are like supercomputers. The Gets are simply MUCH more advanced.

[@Matt561]

Damm I like that dialog

[@StevXtreme]

@zzxcvb98 Morality stems from the need of sentient creatures to self-assess. Anything that has the intelligence to perceive itself as an individual (or as something definable as an "entity") has morals. Different, naturally. Morality is a function of self-determination, it's not a construct.

[@dracosummoner]

I think that makes a little more sense, thanks.

[@Zer0nite]

Legion is the most objective and straight thinking 'person' in the game.

[@StevXtreme]

@lordnimr0d I really really doubt BioWare would bring "souls" into the storyline. Everything else is so transcendent I very much doubt they'd lower themselves into implying "souls" exist (only for organic creatures).

[@gaurangbhushan]

@Homecountry:Your right.On the suicide mission when you take out the oculus legion says: It would appear to be terminated.Permanently.He manages to be funny and badass at the same time.

[@DeathMessenger1988]

I'd love Legion as a personal robot! Every question you ask him, you want to laugh afterwards or you'll be very interesting

[@zzxcvb98]

@StevXtreme if anyone is oversimplifying the issue, it's you. morality is a construct, so applying it to a different species, especially one with wildly different thought processes, is meaningless.

[@StevXtreme]

@lordnimr0d Also, you are wrong. Humans are NOT discarded. In my main playthrough, Kelly got killed along with a few other members of the ship crew. It is clearly seen that they are turned into a so-called "ribonucleic paste". The whole of them. Nothing is discarded.

[@crazymann47]

@randomguyinthecorner well it's not like the geth themselves get shot, you dont call a computer "those things" because it's many programs. huh, i should get to bioware on that. also, anybody ever wonder why tali wears a hood? just, always wondered, and nobody pays attention to it.

[@troggdorthesecond]

So wait, Paragon is the racist option now?! I'm SO sorry Legion. DX

[@LegendaryA37]

god i love tali's voice

[@HiopX]

@jackkuro but for masses a enemies, I prefer a Krogan in my team

[@Promenius]

@Agent1W They have free will and the geth don't follow the three laws of robotics, since it's never been mentioned. Also, the whole "Lolol, I am really Commander Shepard writing this comment, lolol" thing is getting a bit old, seeing as you post it on nearly every ME video you watch. This isn't a roleplaying forum or a diary.

[@iHateSpoilerz]

@ralphaids her AI hacking will no doubt come in handy,and she'll prolly be like "Oh Keelah a geth station! Imagine all the spare geth parts I can collect!" *Quarian girlish scream*

[@dracosummoner]

@iHateSpoilerz So I'm a bit confused. Is this supposed to be an intergalactic version of cultural relativism? ("You can't make other people/species/cultures follow your rules" "Then who are you to call me wrong for doing so?")

[@DavidZadick]

Way I see it, reprograming the geth is like rebooting a crashed computer, so no skin off my back.

[@BFGfreak]

For some reason, that sounds more like a paragon choice than renegade.

[@LegendaryA37]

yes she is! and good looking too

[@TheHamsta101]

Thumbs up tf you thaught Shepard was male untill 0:30

[@HapplyFace]

@iHateSpoilerz yeah the people at bioware get an A+ for that one

[@Shu577]

@jackkuro that never gets old

[@ToveriJuri]

Looks like one of the writers got it back when writing for ME2 unlike Bioware now.

[@Jerryleedlelee]

@that1dude0092 I thought it was the MA1 helmet, cant see very well lmfao

[@LegendaryA37]

@commandershadebetter Giggity Giggity Goo!

[@oimpendentsqurril]

@Homecountry hey i think so to he is awesome and most of the time logical

[@poslednisoud]

I love - Treat every species like moscow :D

[@urs4ever86]

@Homecountry yeah he's so cool I take him on every mission

[@iHateSpoilerz]

@Mysticgamer I think calling the geth "just robots" may give Renegade points

[@mylestoby2]

legion = funnyest lines ever

[@SnIkLeeT]

@Homecountry He constantly steals my kills on insanity :P

[@Jerryleedlelee]

HOW YOU GET THAT MASK!?!!?!

[@MrGenOz]

LOL and there I was saving the geth heretics thinking they will be useful in the fight against Reapers...o.O

[@themars2011]

Well, they are?

[@ServalGwen]

@Alenn95 black and white? i think you haven't played the game for very long.

[@crazymann47]

@MultiHydralisk because that way, he can't get shot in the chest, silly.

[@Snaggbash2000]

so if treating other species as one's own is racist. does this also apply for other races?

[@mrmasterdocterchef]

@Homecountry legion is the best

[@Razgriz_01]

@DEMONPLAYER101 are you a n00b or something *sigh* its the a default helmet you can were it (shepereds helmet in this vid)

[@MultiHydralisk]

I gotta ask: Why won't anyone help Legion with the FUCKING HOLE in his chest?

[@StevXtreme]

@ToiletBomberAlpha Who?

[@DavidZadick]

@flamerage2 That=Awesome.

[@DeathMessenger1988]

@DeathMessenger1988 I mean, interested.

[@StevXtreme]

@zzxcvb98 It's a "little" more complicated that. You better do some digging first before saying things like this :)

[@gethsoftware]

ethnocetrism or cultural relativism............. decisions, decisions.

[@Astrapsody]

First, that's moral relativism, not cultural relativism. Second, not exactly. Legion is saying that you can't treat any two species the same because each species is fundamentally different. Treating a Volus like a Human or the Geth like Turians is, as Legion states, racist (because of what you're implied expectations/standards are and something something).

[@LaFylnn]

Tali

[@iHateSpoilerz]

Legion : No 2 species are identical. All must be judged on their own merits. Treating every species like one's own is racist. Even benign anthropomorphism. EPIC LINE! Even a robot knows more about racism than some humans I know. If only others would think on the same level. Legion FTW!

[@andrewfleming2074]

0:32

[@Razgriz_01]

@DEMONPLAYER101 ok then sry for calling u a n00b

[@vipersickboy24]

they're not alien. lol..

[@StevXtreme]

Wait what?! I thought Legion was smarter than that! "Organics" are also machines! ALL SENTIENT CREATURES ARE MACHINES! They simply differ in structure! Any "morale" issue can be applied to every and all creatures! I did indeed rewrite the geth but that's because I'd do that to humans (or any other organic sentient creature) too. Simply dismissing the issue because our heuristics are different from theirs is terribly stupid. But maybe this ignorance stems from little philosophical advancement.