Mass Effect 2: Mordin discusses the genophage

Minor spoilers in this video.
A scene from Mordin's mission on Tuchanka. Upon finding a dead female krogan in an old hospital he and commander Shepard discusses his involvement with the creation of a modified genophage.

[@josephg3462]

"Genophage or Genocide? Save galaxy from Krogan, save Krogan from Galaxy?" God this line hits different. What an amazing character!

[@HTH2408]

And now replace krogan with human. No less true.

[@merikano2985]

One of my most favorite moments from all of Mass Effect. If you had the technology to see into the future (as the Salarians believed they did with their years of study and simulation), if you believed you looked into the future and saw a continuation of the Rachni Wars into the Krogan Wars what would you do if you held the cure you believed to preserve the deaths of trillions - yet at the cost of millions. The genophage was horrible, but the alternative was (likely) a future even more horrible. If you could see the future - believed you have seen it - what differences in choices would you make today that in hindsight you saw turned out to be mistakes had you only paid more attention to the potential ramifications in the past? It takes not only the elimination of the genophage for the Krogan to prosper but the survival of both Wrex and Eve. If not (even if you beat the Reapers) like with the Rachni Wars a galactic war would not be over only rather continue as the Krogan would begin a new conquest both out of necessity and for a thirst of revenge. But just as Morgan had to see the work of the Genophage - the full weight doesn't hit him until he sees the dead female. Perhaps if there was a way to make a large percentage of Krogan female sterile (versus losing an actual child during pregnancy) the Genophage would be less horrific. It's one thing to see what you believe is the future, it is quite another to live in that future and not only see but feel the consequences of past decisions.

[@kaulenfuhs1630]

"What?! Why!?" Mordin's total cognitive disconnect here is perfectly communicated

[@pkerch00b1]

one the the best and wisest things i heard was from mordin: ''limitations produce progress, cant cary stuff? invent wheel, cant hunt fish? invent spear, limitation must not be ignored but overcome!'' well he says it really fast but when i heard it i was like......damn i wish mordin was my teacher XD

[@Doreai]

Shephard: "Look at the dead woman, Mordin. It doesn't look like you 'saved' her!"

[@trivipesnipe]

"No. It doesn't."

[@Bacxaber]

*Shepard

[@Beowulf_DW]

"Maybe there is no right choice."-Gimli, Lord of the Rings: the Two Towers (novel) However, if the Krogan unite under Wrex, and re-invent themselves culturally, there is hope.

[@lordchancellorhatton1910]

Beowulf DW a fools hope

[@oussamabarca2167]

@@lordchancellorhatton1910 if you do cure genophage u should take control ending only way to keep them in check

[@tyrayentali7041]

The problem is the Wrex is old and if a bad leader comes next it might go south. Maybe Grunt could take over, if he survived the Reaper war.

[@ThePoshboy1]

@@tyrayentali7041 He might be old but never in recorded history have we found out krogan dying of old age, he has a good 500 years left in him at least assuming he's 1500 years old (I think warlord Okeer was around during the rebellion).

[@Bacxaber]

How old is Okeer? iirc obscure bits of lore do point towards Wrex being about 1400. @@ThePoshboy1

[@leikfroakies]

I really liked the idea that tge salarian simulations were biased by how they saw the krogan. Mordin mentions how the krogan have no culture and are all aggressive enought to immediately end up in war, yet throughout the game there are little examples of this not being the case. Like the simp on illium who loves poetry. The guy on the citadel obsessed with fish. The krogan scientist who feels he's surrounded by morons. The one on tuchanka who dreams of going to the citadel.

[@Shaco.]

You dare to call Charr a simp? Shame on you.

[@leikfroakies]

@@Shaco. Charr is proof that SIMPs can be the biggest Chads

[@hoarder1919]

also *extremely* polite krogan sent by mr Tax however, disagree on the krogan scientist. He did kill his predecessor

[@jaym4024]

There was also the big ancient structure the krogan had that became the giant thresher maw's den. And the salarians have specified many times throughout the games that the krogans were uplifted by the salarians specifically for their aggression and brutality due to the rachni. And they wonder why the krogans immediately turned on them and the turians right after the rachni got exterminated.

[@Ale-dd3ek]

@@hoarder1919 the polite krogan terrified me when I met him the first time

[@MrSilver222]

Mordin is brilliant! I wish they've added tons of conversation with him, when he explains different things

[@UrdnotRed]

Genophage literally means eater of offspring. It's really hard hitting how much Mordin defends the use of something like that then slowly realize the full ramifications of it all.

[@TheCatabolicTrex]

Everything He said was true, there is no right or wrong answer to the question

[@bobizzle1605]

This is why the Genophage was easily the biggest moral dilemma in the series, yes bigger than the Geth. I always hated that paragon Shep made Mordin out to be a monster. The Genophage was morally wrong, but it was also logically right.

[@miguellemir242]

Mordin arrived to that conclusion by himself at the end: He wasnt a monster by creating a Genophage, but turned everyone else into one at the same time

[@TurtleOfAngst]

It was "logical" in the same way the Reapers were "logical": If you ignore and discount ALL other possibilities, you are left with the "logical" conclusion you want. Krogan are too fractured? They have no central leader? Maybe do something about THAT! Shepard solves this problem on ACCIDENT by treating Wrex as a PERSON, and the greatest minds of the STG couldn't put their bigotry aside for five minutes to even consider the possibility? Krogan only know how to fight? Demonstrably false, just from the random NPCs you meet. But beyond that, where do they have the CHANCE to be more? A REASON to be more? Certainly not in Citadel space! The Genophage as a "solution" is morally wrong, logically unsound, and intellectually vacuous. It was ILLEGALLY used as a punishment, and those with the power to do something about it were too bloodthirsty to think of enforcing that law. Mordin had the chance to DO something about this crime and chose to, worse than do nothing, support it! And what's more, Mordin himself disagrees with you: "I was wrong!"

[@moviekid42]

@@TurtleOfAngst And it's THAT very reason I cant stomach the synthesis ending, even though that one was obviously Casey Hudson's favorite. Its only forced upon the galaxy because the Reapers have come to an incorrect conclusion regarding organics and synthetics.

[@TurtleOfAngst]

@@moviekid42 Yeah, the whole thing with the Starkid was clearly the baby of someone who either couldn't or didn't want to make a story that actually FIT it, so they shoved it into ME. Just the whiplash of the AMAZING writing in the lead up to the Beam Run contrasted to that? Jarring, to say the least.

[@ReichLife]

Which still makes genophage the most logical while your view on it is purely emotional. Genophage was direct result of Krogans own nature and actions. Only alternative would utter genocide of theirs species, which ironically Krogans themselves done towards Rachnis. Wrex being different is exactly pure result of genophage. Also convenient you mention some unique Krogan npc, all while ignoring the masses which try to kill you throughout first two games. And what alternative? Only reason Wrex became relevant was due to his fame from fighting Saren and his Geth. Fame from battle which is one of few aspekts which Krogans respect. Krogans as a whole would spit at any help from Council species after Rebellions exactly due to how Krogan mentality. Genophage was the most logical solution and it ceased to be such only in face of Reapers return.

[@TannyHarding]

I love the comments on this, really speaks for the greatness of this game. The genophage is an ethical dilemma. On the one hand, without it the universe would be overrun, it would be either wipe out the krogan or be overrun by them. But with the genophage, you're crippling an entire species to suffer the deaths of 999 out of 1000 infants.. I think Mordin made the better choice, but it's still a rotten choice.. AWESOME GAME!

[@Zeratuhl]

@TemporalOasis I agree. He is easily one of my favorite bioware characters because of his depth and how well thought out his dialogue is. My character did come across as a bit of a holier-than-thou ass in the video because I was doing a pure paragon playthrough, but personally I agree wholeheartedly with mordin's choice and his arguments for why the genophage was necessary.

[@GeneralOfAnegon]

It's hard to try and reconcile the logic of his decision with the ethical concerns of it. Part of why I think his character is so brilliant. It would've torn anyone apart, I think.

[@taelara]

Gah! I love how much emotion Mordin shows during this scene. Like the shock/outrage in his voice when you say you didn't think he'd be 'upset by the sight of a dead krogan'. I felt so bad paragon-assaulting him!!! haha... I had never really disagreed and his arguments only convinced me more towards his side. It's weird, normally I'm pretty straight paragon but I frequently agreed with renegade options on Mordin's issues. Wonder why. Excuse me as I go question my moral code, lol.

[@VanVelding]

Loading screen makes it feel like I'm actually playing. Though it's kind of short. ;) The video itself is a great bit of Mordin and why he's the best.

[@DarknessHowls]

I love this game not only for its addictive combat and great graphics, but also because it presents you with believable, interesting moral dilemnas and characters like this. Say what you want about Mass Effect's gameplay, but it's a huge leap forward for storytelling in video games.

[@tristanjorritsma9709]

One of the best dialogue sequences in a video game ever.

[@EvilDevilCry1]

I like all the characters Loved to hear the human the turian and the salarian talking in the bachelor party XD

[@Fjarhultian]

@blade10000 Mordin would agree, I think. With a structured, unified society to keep the krogan clans willing to reason, the genophage would not be needed.

[@ryanbaker979]

Probably one of my favorite scenes in any video game.

[@michaeledmunds7056]

Ngl, this loyalty mission made me tear up, and actually shifted my views on the Krogan and genophage. I used to take the council's side on it, at least in part, because it seemed logical. I didn't realize just how bad things were for the Krogan people.

[@TheSodiumazide]

@xylonisawesome It's more that neither Paragon nor Renegade is morally consistent. Hence sometimes getting paragon responses where you threaten to break someones legs. Paragon is in general reactive and Renegade is expedient. Paragon is stupid sometimes and renegade is cruel. Its not a good/bad dichotomy, its more complex than that.

[@Terastas]

The conversation with his student reveals even more depth to it, such as the krogan clans fighting over fertile females and the increased hostility towards the council over the piles of stillborns. The writers went really out of their way to make sure this had more depth than even our real present-day politics tend to. And to everyone accusing BioWare of being pro-lifers: this video was made by someone playing paragon ya' jerks. Don't like it: don't comment on it when you play it.

[@TannyHarding]

@xylonisawesome: Yeh, Shepard's speech was sometimes weird. What bugged me most is that moments after this, he gives completely opposite arguments against Mordin's student. And you don't really get a choice for either in the speech options either!

[@dosbilliam]

Now if only other publishers weren't intent on taking in 5 leaps back.

[@blade10000]

@MegaExistentialism This is just me, and why I support the Paragon way. The Genophage was good, at the time, but the krogan, I believe, no longer need it. With a strong leader, like Wrex, I think things can be better. I believe that the Genophage needs to be eliminated now, because the galaxy needs the full strength of the krogan against the Reapers, and because the Genophage is no longer needed. What is needed, is Wrex's teachings being spread out more.

[@lvlselect]

This discussion is seriously debated as if this was a real life issue. That alone marks the essence of great game. I love Bioware! With that said, I believe Mordin made a immoral sacrifice to save the galaxy from a possible long term war. Imagine the amount of weight you have to live with after a decision like that. Its no wonder he studied multiple religions from different race.

[@2Scribble]

0:44 - woof! I forgot how rough the facial animations were in these games XD

[@SturFriedBrains]

That's using basic logic, only taking into account the vaguely big picture. Shepard is an icon in ME2, his/her name & presence carry more weight than Mordin's ever could, which is extremely valuable in many situations. Also Mordin is confrontational, Sheppard has finesse, something, that based on all the crew vs crew conflicts, is much needed to pull this off. If Mordin was in charge Miranda & Jack would have killed each other after Jack's personal mission.

[@Luminethereploid]

@Metamorp8 Mordin was kind of responsible. The original genophage was cured. He and his group dropped the new, modified version.

[@Zeratuhl]

@MegaExistentialism Yes, it is indeed short-sighted, but that's sort of the idea behind the paragon stereotype. It's basically the classic holy paladin type personality placed in a sci-fi rpg. So some paragon choices will come across as naive, short-sighted, narrow minded and in some cases plain dumb. I was doing a pure paragon playthrough before a pure renegade playthrough just to see the differences, however. As mentioned before, I personally agree with Mordin's view.

[@DarknessHowls]

@YoungZer0 - I meant the game's way of presenting a story was a huge leap forward, not its gameplay.

[@Dayoldsushy]

I always agreed with Mordin on the genophage. I wish Shephard could be more like mordin But then, had to be mordin. Someone else might have gotten it wrong

[@SturFriedBrains]

See the Paragon & Renegade system was created to judge morality, not logic, if it judged logic then back on Omega when you are with the Mercs about to take on Garrus & your talking to the guy fixing the fighter helicopter thing, you have the ability to either stab him in the back w/a welding torch or let him fix the plane, logically stabbing him is obviously the right thing, but your really gunna tell me stabbing a guy when his back is turned who wasn't attacking you is morally right?

[@XxTaiMTxX]

Actually, the "paragon" and "renegade" system in Mass Effect 1 had nothing to do with actual morality. It was only in Mass Effect 2 and 3 that they changed it to the less interesting "morality" nonsense. In Mass Effect 1, the system was meant to measure how often you used actions to solve your problems or how often you used words to solve problems. Solving a problem with actions tended to be much tougher (since it resulted in combat so often, and you sometimes had to save hostages in the midst of that combat), but often gave you the same results. It did usually net more deaths in a playthrough as well, but it was the "quick and dirty" way to solve galaxy spanning problems. Essentially, it was just a system for measuring whether or not you were a soldier or a diplomat. Some of the paragon options even come back to bite you in the ass in the sequels. But, no, it was never meant to judge morality. It only turned into that because that's how the players perceived the system (because they're morons, I guess, I dunno why otherwise). Most missions could be solved much quicker and much easier if you used the Renegade options. But, those options permanently eliminated threats. Paragon options, however, made missions take longer and make them more complicated, but could postpone problems until later... or result in horrible tragedies by the time you got to the third game.

[@mhdunknown]

You're wrong. Mass Effect 1 had a Renegade option that allowed you to commit genocide. You really need to play that game more often, seems that your memory is a bit busted.

[@Turtle1631991]

That particular scene always bothered me because "renegade" option is only once that actually makes sense, If you are gonna let them fix deadly weapon they WILL use against you within an hour you are not "paragon" or "moral" - you are a moron. Like who with their wits in place DOESN'T do that?!

[@MasterZhang]

"your really gunna tell me stabbing a guy when his back is turned who wasn't attacking you is morally right?" Yes, otherwise the entire idea of militaries having saboteurs and spies becomes morally wrong, and that would just be silly.

[@MyOwnNameWasTaken]

@beastclaw33 "Considered" by whom? As I said, it depends on your point of view. Despite the description, it is more in line with forced sterility than forced abortion, since it seems that some females are better able to breed than others. Also, the loss of fertility was a devastating blow to the psyche of an entire species. Finally, if religious, you'll worry about the embryonic failure too. But yes, it's extremely morally ambiguous. Bioware tackles complex moral issues in its games.

[@TheWillx13]

It's probably the better option to leave mordin with the choice of recreating the data to cure the genophage I guess he will do something about it in mass effect 3

[@brainconqueror8095]

'Victor would have war economy, bloodthirsty army." That was what convinced me that the genophage is necessary. The Krogan seem to be perpetually stuck in a pre-WW1 "war is glorious" mindset. We humans got over that after the slaughter of both world wars, but the Krogan never learned that because they can splurge out millions of battle ready Krogan cubs every year. They never learned to value life.

[@miguellemir242]

The problem with that is that also locked into an equally self-destructive midnset: "We might aswell kill and plunder. What do we have to lose anymore?"

[@millabasset1710]

Got over "war is glorious"? The United States and China are in a Cold War 2.

[@brainconqueror8095]

@@millabasset1710 a Cold War is not armed conflict. We don’t have US troops invading Shanghai just because, nor do we have Chinese troops invading San Francisco just because. A Cold War lets both sides exist while being allowed to focus the state’s resources on things other than the prosecution of a war. Sure, they may spend money to maintain a military, but maintaining a peacetime military is a lot less expensive than fighting a war. A “war is glorious” mindset is one that looks to start a war with someone or the other, no matter the excuse.

[@millabasset1710]

@@brainconqueror8095 My grandmother vividly remembers living in Florida during the Cuba Missile Crisis, those weren't "peaceful" times. The Cold War was the US and Russia using proxy nations to do their bidding, it still exists today. US Allies are thugs for American Imperialism., China works closely with Russia and some lesser powerful countries in the Middle East or South Asia( Pakistan being one of them).

[@brainconqueror8095]

@@millabasset1710 but two of those proxies coming to blows over something doesn’t end up dragging the US and Russia/China into a worldwide shooting war. That was what World War One was. A dispute between Austria-Hungary and Serbia ended up dragging in Britain and Germany into a bloody slugfest that lasted four years and claimed millions of lives. On the contrast, the US and Russia did not start World War Three over Korea, the Prague Spring, Bay of Pigs invasion, Vietnam, Afghanistan or even the most recent clashes between India and China in Sikkim. If fights break out, they remain contained. We haven’t completely given up war, but we require a higher threshold to escalate to armed conflict and we know how to de-escalate those conflicts.

[@The_Midnight_Bear]

@MyOwnNameWasTaken its still considered abortion.abortion morally ambious at best.

[@Allabaster84]

Basically, yeah. Imagine giving several tribes of cavemen assault rifles, and see what happens. This was the mistake.

[@Allabaster84]

Technically incorrect. Its altering the population growth of the Krogan to be 1/1000th what it originally was when they needed to breed like orkz to survive. If it had not been done, it could have resulted in a similar issue to that of deer herds that are not culled annually if there are minimal natural predators to provide population control. E.G. mass starvation during food scarce periods. Its one of the reasons I love this game and Bioware in general. Makes you think.

[@ccampbell02yt]

Some living things just aren't compatible with other living things. You got a better idea Shepherd?

[@grezgorztube]

Let's face it, if the story made sense, Mordin would have been the leader of the entire operation, and Shephard would have only been a squad leader for combat missions.

[@DesRaven]

Mordin didnt just use words to justify his work, he faced it every day, Saw first hand and face the gory reality of it. Unlike MANY other "leaders" he didnt send other to deal with the fallout of his workl, he faced it didnt hide behind big words and intellect.

[@bgcvetan]

I hate the writers . how could they exclude option to support Mordin, he did the damn right thing!

[@millabasset1710]

So you support the Salarians who admitted to cultivating the Korgan early, causing them to wage countless wars in the first place? The Krogan are heroes, without them the Rachni would have done the Reapers job before ME1 started.

[@soulstealer5625]

@Shizuma Hanazono thye then attempted to conquer and enslave the galaxy. Reapers would roll in on a krogan empire and nothing else... provided they don’t dissolve into civil war.

[@xylonisawesome]

This was the one part of the game that I hated. Not the intellectual discussions, but that the good/bad dialogue was switched. It was like BioWare is made up of all pro-lifers - the good Shepard keeps calling fertility manipulation "murder" and keeps blaming Mordin for the dead Krogan he had nothing to do with.

[@sewagedweller]

all it done was to make crogan breed like normal species instead of endless swarms , besides if not genophage rest of council species would've been destroyed

[@MasterZhang]

Mordin did nothing wrong.

[@Quinntus79]

He dropped a plague on a species. I think that qualifies as wrong.

[@MasterZhang]

@@Quinntus79 explain why it's okay to lose a war of defense conventionally but not to win it biologically.

[@solaris4022]

​@@MasterZhang"I MADE A MISTAKE!"-Mordin on the genophage

[@MasterZhang]

@@solaris4022 "I made a mistake!" - Mordin, written by someone who legit believes renegade equals "colossal dickasaurus".

[@solaris4022]

​@@MasterZhangone of the renegade options in mass effect 1 meant leaving hostages to die, another meant committing genocide- renegade was always being a dick.

[@Missin187]

Can someone explain to me what Mordin meant by "Not guilty, responsible."

[@XxTaiMTxX]

It means he's not guilty for the death of the experimentation to try to cure the genophage. But, he's responsible for that experimentation happening in the first place. He's responsible for the death despite not being guilty of causing it.

[@winkoman3]

It's sort of like Thane's approach to morality: it wasn't his choice, but he still carried it out. It was his duty. Mordin even says in a conversation that he would have disagreed with the decision to enact the original genophage had he been around for it.

[@MasterZhang]

It wasn't the wrong thing to do, and he's not morally culpable, but the death still happened as a result of his work.

[@genogamma13]

Mordin be all: Shep: We should improve society somewhat "Curious, yet you *thrive* in society - that I made possible with the Genophage. Contradiction. Perplexing."

[@jmlaw8888]

4:00 Thank you Patrick Weekes someone FINALLY said it. I CANNOT STAND how Mass Effect constantly overplays the Krogan threat to the galaxy. The are natural super soldiers. Thats it. They cannot built fleets. They cannot design great weapons of war. Their fleet was gifted to them and were their weapons. They are not a technologically advanced race. All that they have that was or is modern waa either gifted to them during their uplifting or stolen. They were nearly exterminated the first time around, only the Salarian and Asari natural weakness held them back. A second Krogan rebellion would do nothing but unleash humanities passion for genocide. Once theyd dropped enough asteroids on human colonies again humanity would simply unleash its biological and technological passion for warfare on the krogan. And with the Turians on side theyd be no more second chances. Also Weekes was the only writer willing to acknowledge in the war just how barbaric the Krogan were and how their numerous warcrimes justified the genophage. Nothing pisses me off more than a writer making Krogan says "muh is a war crimes victim". Wrex is the worst offender of all because he hypocritically acknowledges his peoples natural stupidity and barbarism yet still has the audacity to whine when they paid for it. And I like Wrex, so I dont like having to point that out.

[@pisasupayani]

Finally someone Who gets how great that line is. Both from Human point of view and galactic point of view

[@OffensivePlayer316]

Covid-19 confirmed

[@Remaix]

I have to admit, this voice acting is amazing... but... Male Shepard's voice... compared to the great voice acting of other character's (like Mordin's in this video) it seems very bland. Not bad, but not really good, either. That's probably why I never really bothered to play a male Shepard.

[@flip240]

This game has a lot of philosophical views, never seen something like this before in a video game, not even Final Fantasy series. Very addicting With regard to saving the research, I had a hard time; but destroyed the research. It's akin to the bio-weapons research performed by the Nazis on Jews; or the Japanese on the Chinese. Human experimentation taints the work, regardless of the outcome.

[@JackofTrades21]

That research is the foundation for today’s medicine 90% of everything we know about medicine came from the Nazis preforming experiments on the Jews and others you don’t just throw away the research because it’s tainted ? What ? Tainted? It’s research facts you can’t just burn a book because you don’t like the was it was written. Blind emotional Stupidity trumping over logic and the capability of having much more positive effect than negative, of course it was horrible but it saved an endless amount of lives helped an innumerable amount, to try and say otherwise because the way it was done is plain wrong and irrational.

[@JackofTrades21]

It’s actually hilarious how your knowledge you referenced the correct objects the Nazis on Jews the Japanese on the Chinese yet you were ignorant to the advances they made to the betterment of humanity you made false claims about things being tainted but don’t even realize the ibuprofen you take when you have a sore elbow is because of them and the unethical experiments they conducted. Yes it’s sad but it’s what happened now we know more and know better but to say burn the data is moronic and sad, even Morgan says in this game everyone that was Miss treated would’ve died in vain to burn the data. burning the data would be the ultimate nihilistic satanic move

[@millabasset1710]

@@JackofTrades21 You're defending the Salarians mistake of uplifting the Krogan early. Humans don't reproduce anywhere near as fast as Krogan do, I still believe the Council races would fear humanity and impose another bioweapon on our population. The Dalatrass doesn't care about Earth, she merely wanted Shepard to do her dirty work.

[@kitzlaihel]

i only saw the last option is being pro-life.

[@JonatasAdoM]

This Mordim is not the same we see in ME3. They changed his character so much to go along their plot that they've just created another character altogether. I know people change over the years and rethink their decisions but this is is too much forced even for me.

[@michaeledmunds7056]

Mordin was always heading to where ended up. He clearly regrets the genophage and was just making excuses.