The Organic Development of the Mass DEBATE between Dr. Kwasniewski and Gregory DiPippo

[@JohnGabrielMinjares]

Continue to pray for an end to all Latin Mass restrictions and a reversal of "Traditiones Custodes." Also, please pray for the spiritual efforts and success of The Chicago, Paris, and Washington DC Rosary Rallies for the Latin Mass. Plus, for the spiritual efforts and success of The annual Summorum Pontificum Pilgrimage March in Washington DC, Maryland and Arlington, Virginia for an end to all Latin Mass restrictions.🙏

[@littlerock5256]

Pray for Bergoglio's conversion and then this would logically follow.

[@jeffbrewster7475]

​@@littlerock5256 I pray for a new and holy pope.

[@littlerock5256]

@@jeffbrewster7475 As Francis has stacked the college of cardinals it is likely that they will elect a clone of him, if not worse. The cardinals also need conversion.

[@littlerock5256]

@@JohnGabrielMinjares That novena was for "the conversion of Pope Francis." If Francis needs converting he isn't Catholic and hence not the pope. It was also for "restoration of the Catholic Church." But the Catholic Church is indefectible...

[@BA65574]

Why pray for their reversal? They’re organic development of the second Vatican council

[@trevwilliams2138]

Thanks!

[@alessandragiammattei63]

This is the most civilized debate I've ever seen! I heard this week that the Roman rite was introduced in Spain by the Castilian kings in the 11th or 12th century. They favored it over the Mozarabic Rite.

[@emanuel95tradi]

Subtítulos en español por favoor! Son dos grandes! Y no me quiero perder ni un detalle!

[@WashingtonDC99]

All I want and desire is to freely attend the Traditional Latin Mass. I want and desire true Catholicism. I do not want watered - down catholicism to please the godless, fake, false catholics, protestants and fake, flase jews.

[@ld2906]

A desire for authenticity through the pursuit of truth in essence. A noble pursuit indeed. Bravo and God bless. You are not alone. Unbridled zealotry, however, has its downside. Whist neither a virtue nor a vice, it can certainly be a temptation.

[@RionBraggs]

Amen, brother. That's all we faithful lay people want.

[@littlerock5256]

You won't find that in the conciliar religion.

[@tomredd9025]

With all due respect, there is absolutely nothing watered down by the beautiful Novus Ordo Liturgy. It is closer to the Mass of the early Christians. Also, remember, the Canon #1 of the Novus Ordo Missal is the Tridentine Canon. After attending and serving literally hundreds of Tridentine Masses, the Heavens opened when the Novus Ordo Mass was first promulgated. God Bless you.

[@littlerock5256]

@@tomredd9025 Excellent book is "Work of Human Hands: A Theological Critique of the Mass of Paul VI."

[@johnpepino5097]

I'll have to look at the history of the term in the ante preparatory commission's drafts, and if applicable the minutes of the discussions.

[@agrarian_peasant]

Excellent conversation gentleman! Thanks to all involved!

[@roberthuard4759]

Thank you for this excellent podcast. It was very valuable to hear your guests discuss, with reason and factual information, the topic mentioned in the title, and the related subject matter. I tend to consider myself as somewhat of a poster boy for the discussion. Born in 1947, I grew up as an altar boy in the late 50s and early 60s. I then became one of the many to drift away in the 70s and beyond, until, thank God for the longevity, finally recognizing what was missing. I pretty much only have the NO available, although, I very much would prefer the TLM. In retrospect, I do feel as though something was taken away from me, by force. However, I also take responsibility for my choices and the direction of my life.

[@josephclark1431]

Let's gooo!!!

[@johnvwilkman]

Gregory’s explication of the idea of organic is very important.

[@oldegeezer]

I like how you touched on actual vs "active" participation in the Mass. I really wish you would talk about that more. The new rite was made for active participation. I want to be able to understand, for my own sake and in order to explain to others, what it means to "participate" in the Mass. Also, hello Mr. DiPippo!

[@bookpaper105]

Know nothing of the topic I’m soon to be baptized and attend tlm. But around the 57 minute mark when they are mentioning the faithful accepting changes in the rite organically the thought pops in my head that these people had a much different concept of accepting gods will than people do now. I mean do we not think whether it currently feels good or bad that the novus ordo was at least allowed by God for maybe a better purpose? Mr DiPippo once said we can see the church isn’t flourishing and I mean in one sense I totally agree but I can’t help but think did anyone think God was flourishing on the cross when he gained his glory? Idk

[@bookpaper105]

Okay they get into what I’m talking about 20 minutes later

[@Jesus_Christ_is_King12]

The development involved is essentially tied to the notion of Development of Dogma. This is the case because we are dealing with the meanings of things whether as a Truth or an Action (Faith and Morals). The Liturgy is most essentially tied to Moral Theology as a Sacrament. Therefore, to truly understand Development, we need to understand the solid doctrine of Development of Dogma which is treated as a thesis of Sacred Theology. All good Thomists know that the meanings of Truths Divinely Revealed cannot change. They are Eternally the same. What “changes” is the explicitness of that meaning. In the context of the Liturgy, there must be a propositional homogeneous meaning to its development. This takes the form both formally and materially (form and matter). It must mean the same and yet materially manifest the same physically. Unfortunately the Novus Ordo does not materially manifest the same as the Latin Mass. The Sacred nature is either completely gone or not made manifest effectively. Thus the Novus Ordo is not a homogeneous development at least materially. This is not even getting into the formal aspect.

[@simonewilliams7224]

Why is there a need for more than ONE Mass ???

[@O_Rei]

You mean, more than one form of celebrating it? There are 23 Apostolic rites within the Church. Does that answer your (unclear) question?

[@ld2906]

It doesn't seem to make any sense at all, but that's only because the majority understanding of traditionalism is, well... contemporary. Oxymoronic that may be, however, as humanity is divested of cultures, people lose their sense of identity and, consequently, perspective. If one has no understanding of the meaning of culture, and therefore no affinity for it, it's impossible to apportion a value to it. The temptation to singularise the sacrifice of the Mass seems not only reasonable and conservative but logical too.

[@OUTBOUND184]

@simonewilliams7224 Unity is not uniformity

[@littlerock5256]

Paul VI considered that he was revising the Roman Missal, not creating a new one.

[@kemmow25]

Yes let it naturally walk along each one. Both forms can help each one and will also help for form and straighten the laity and religous.

[@quindariousgooch88]

The novus ordo has aged like milk, its clear that its outdated and needs to be reformed.

[@erict.35]

Is the church in crisis? Or is the whole issue that some bookish people prefer Latin style Mass? I can’t understand what these two men think.

[@TKOTraddish]

Maybe part of the issue is that many people, on both sides, thinks that this is about “preference.”

[@stevecalovich3682]

God pulled the plug on the Roman Church in 1960.

[@ClavesCoelorum]

I hope this is just my misreading things, but why is Mr Flanders addressing his guests simply by their last names? It seems rather impolite to me as a form of address, like addressing a member of staff.

[@stthomasmore4811]

Relax.

[@benjaminmorris3625]

Addressing people by their first name is a vet recent phenomenon. For the longest time it was a sign of a personal relationship; the polite thing to do is to refer to them by their surname or title.

[@andytraditio2983]

Is DiPippo’s definition of “organic” , relative?

[@O_Rei]

“Relative” to what?

[@ld2906]

I suspect that's the problem. It seems that his thinking on the matter is somewhat linear. Correctly understood, both subjective and objective apply, correctly apportioned, without conflation. DiPippo appears to incline towards reductive codification for the sake of logic as a defence against incrementalism. A reasonable assumption, on the face of it, given that the alternative is inexorable drift into irreverent dissolution. The problem with the reductive lens is that as a process entailing analysis and categorisation, it tends to discern dichotomy where there is paradox, by way of interrogation. Invariably, one finds an air of the antagonistic in the trajectory that supports this optic. But... perhaps that's just me....!

[@tomredd9025]

@@ld2906 Wow, of Wow - Good job! I am impressed. As Father Julio used to say in my 1960s Latin classes, you really know how to use "75 cent words." In 2024 dollars those are "$7.44 words."

[@ld2906]

​@tomredd9025 Classic and there you go .... the effect of cartesianism in the minds of men. Always hooking up on and climbing atop the tape measure. The illusory power of Schroedinger's cat strikes again. Always happens when one strikes a nerve.

[@ld2906]

@tomredd9025 Fr Julio eh? 1960? Latin classes? Kinda makes sense any way you cut it, bro. The rot had well and truly set in by then. He'd have found it particularly difficult not to take the following (quote) from a man of his times seriously then... "We are in an age that assumes the narrowing trends of specialization to be logical, natural, and desirable. Consequently, society expects all earnestly responsible communication to be crisply brief. . . . In the meantime, humanity has been deprived of comprehensive understanding." I assume you, too (by way of the education you received from dear Fr Julio)?

[@joseph_mta5840]

It’s been 60 years. The Church is never going to go back. This debate is just tiresome- the Church has spoken and it did what it did. You’re always free to attend any Latin mass at an approved diocesan location or fssp, ick, etc. but that’s it. Hopefully the Church will adopt more reverence and respect in the revised rite.

[@quindariousgooch88]

"You’re always free to attend any Latin mass at an approved diocesan location or fssp, ick, etc. but that’s it" Lol. No im not.

[@dwpjoyce]

What do you mean, the Church has spoken? Pope Benedict said the Latin Mass was never abrogated and was in principle always allowed...

[@joseph_mta5840]

@@quindariousgooch88 yes you are. you are catholic not protestant

[@joseph_mta5840]

@@dwpjoyce yes and what is your point? we still have the latin mass but you need permission to offer it and it must be approved by the local bishop. the Church is in charge of her liturgy and her treasures.

[@dwpjoyce]

@@joseph_mta5840 I asked a question - you seem to suggest the Church has spoken on the matter, and I was wondering what you meant. Sadly, many people do not have the opportunity you speak of - many countries do not have a single legitimate Latin Mass that people are free to attend, and many others used to have the Latin Mass, and no longer do.

[@tomredd9025]

At the first Latin Mass I served as a 10-year-old in 1960, I was scandalized. The priest said the prayers so fast, we altar boys couldn't finish our responses. Nobody paid attention. Must people said the rosary. The priest prayed to the wall and mostly mumbled. In my opinion, the Heavens were crying out for reform, a reform to return to what a Mass should be. When the Mass was reformed to the beautiful Novus Ordo Liturgy, it was as if the Heavens opened with so much grace flowing out from it. If you read Saint Justin Martyr's account of the Mass of 140 A.D., he was basically describing the Novus Ordo Mass. Unfortunately, we now have people like Mr. Kwasniewski trying so hard to deprive the Church of the tremendous gifts that have been bestowed on us by the Holy Spirit. He slickly wants us to return to a period when "the noble simplicity" of the Mass was corrupted to a point when the fundamental ritual of the mass was so changed over the centuries that its real meaning was lost. Take Mr. Kwasniewski's assertion that communion in hand was "organically" replaced by reception in a more reverent manner by sticking your tongue out. First of all, who says that sticking out your tongue is more reverent? That's just his opinion. St. James in his Epistles says that the tongue is the most dangerous part of the body because it can do so much damage. Were not our hands made sacred by Jesus' saving act of allowing His hands to be pierce by the nails that bound Him to the Cross? The real reverence is in maintaining the original meaning of the central ritual that makes present the sacred acts that created and orders the Universe. The purpose of the Mass is to make us present at the Last Supper. We enter into the reality of it. Jesus told us to "take and eat," not to stick out your tongue. "Taking" His Body in our hands, as the original Christians did, is an affirmation of our Faith and a direct participation in the Last Supper. We are there at the Eternal Banquet no less than the Apostles. Returning to the tradition of having the priest face the congregation is the same thing. Jesus did not talk to the back wall at the Last Supper. He faced the Apostles. Having Mass in an understandable language to the people is in line with the origin of the reenactment of the Last Supper. Jesus did not speak Latin. The Apostles heard him in a language they understood. While Mr. Kwasniewski may be sincere, he does great damage to the Church by convincing some people that the wonderful gift of the Novus Ordo reforms that takes us back to our original Traditions is somehow flawed. BTW, when the Mass was reformed to its more original Tradition, I absolutely don't remember anyone complaining. Almost universally, everyone was praising the changes as making so much sense. God Bless you all.

[@bookpaper105]

You are condemning a rite instituted by God. the Latin form. You are doing what you accuse the Dr. of doing….

[@forehead949]

Boomer…

[@aloyalcatholic5785]

Then how do you account for all the abuses that took place in a Novus ordo? All the people that have left in the faith because of at least in part that Mass?

[@austinkent8811]

Beautifully put, unfortunately people like Dr Kwasniewski are more interested in following their own will than in being obedient sons of the Church, pray for them.

[@tomredd9025]

I have never seen any abuses in the beautiful Novus Ordo liturgy. All the abuses I have seen were at Tridentine Latin Masses. It is my opinion, since the Mass in the Novus Ordo is in the language of the people, the priests do try harder to make it reverent. This is unlike the Tridentine Mass where the priests just rattled off the words. Remember, I attended hundreds if not thousands of old Latin Masses. When the Novus Ordo was promulgated, it was if the Heavens opened.

[@carloschavez2875]

The amount of ignorance from the laity and priests today is mind bottling. The 1962 Mass is far more modern than the 1970 rubrics. People need to attend and study the Byzantine, Syrian, Marion, Coptic, Ambrosian, Gallic, and Mozarabic Rites. You'll see everything that the Novus Ordo has today is taken from all these rites. The Western Church up until Trent was very diverse. Come on people, drop this crap about the 'Mass of the Ages". The West didn't recite the Creed up until 1008 (except Spain who recited the Creed in 576 and had it before Communion). The West didn't say the Confitor until 1205 and only done silently by the priest. The Domine Non Sum was first put into the West at 1205 also. This is only scratching the surface.

[@zxcasdqwe12]

No. Novus Ordo is ecumenical mass, so what NO has, it was taken from Anglican, Episcopelian etc.

[@carloschavez2875]

@zxcasdqwe12 Name me a part in the NO that is taken from Angelican liturgy then?

[@zxcasdqwe12]

@@carloschavez2875 Novus Ordo was created with intention to be a “The Lord's Supper” (#7.1969 Institutio Generalis Missalis Roman), which is the same as Anglican idea of the mass 2.Offeratory was almost entirely copied from Anglican “Prayers at the Preparation of the Table #4“Blessed are you, Lord God of all creation: through your goodness we have this bread to set before you, which earth has given and human hands have made. It will become for us the bread of life. People: Blessed be God for ever. Blessed are you, Lord God of all creation: through your goodness we have this wine to set before you, fruit of the vine and work of human hands. It will become for us the cup of salvation. People: Blessed be God for ever.”

[@carloschavez2875]

@@zxcasdqwe12 The N.O. is the Liturgy, and the Mass is both the Last Supper and Calvary all in one. The Church teaches in the recent Catechism in Paragraph 1367 The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice. The prayers by the priest which you stated was said and prayed by Jesus and all Jews. The Mishnah states: [Ancient Jewish Tradition: Passover Blessings of Bread and Wine (1st Century) Over bread a man says, “Blessed are You, O Lord, our God, King of the Universe, who brings forth bread from the earth.” Over wine a man says, “Blessed are You, O Lord, our God, King of the Universe, who creates the fruit of the vine.”

[@austinkent8811]

Bruh the Anglicans copied those prayers from us, not the other way around…

[@dr.tafazzi]

Shit takes, repent dissenters

[@brianbacon5149]

+JMJ Yes. The NO Church needs to quit its self idolatrous dissent from Sacred Tradition reflected in the NO's radical break with the hermeneutic of continuity. Pope Benedict points that dissent out clearly in SP.

[@dr.tafazzi]

@brianbacon5149 who's jmj?

[@brianbacon5149]

@@dr.tafazzi +JMJ Are you Catholic?

[@TKOTraddish]

A generous and thoughtful take, sir.

[@TKOTraddish]

It is funny though- I’m not sure what side of the issue you are on, but you don’t even sound like you are Catholic (especially if you really don’t know JMJ is Jesus, Mary, Joseph.)

[@geoffwilson9273]

Thanks!