Mastering The Double (Or: How To Play Age Of Sigmar)

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3rd Edition Age of Sigmar new player advice for playing around the dreaded double turn. Dealing with a game with "random" turns. Please Enjoy
Timestamps:
00:00 Intro
00:13 Casual Fun
00:40 Attitude
01:47 Random?
02:46 Predictable
03:34 Tip 1: Think
06:04 Exception: All-in
06:35 Tip 2: Controlling it
07:58 Tip 3: Getting Control
09:07 Exception: Counterplay
11:35 Exception: Risk and Drop Meta
12:22 Tip 4: Mitigating it
14:29 Tip 5: Reactions and Trap Cards
15:46 Tip 6: Play The Actual Game Tho
16:31 Final Tip

[@ryanunderwood9090]

I definitely appreciate this reasoned approach to the current mechanics and the fact it wasn't a multi-hour powerpoint presentation.

[@bombarded15]

Concrete examples being shown and not just reading off bullet points, my dude knows how to video

[@jeremy1392]

Tbf, HeyWoah has a great one hour powerpoint presentation on game balance.

[@Merc1987]

Throwing Frostlord's physically at an opponent's models is pretty accurate as to how I've found them represented on the tabletop actual. If Ogor players could swap out Frostlord models for bowling balls, I suspect many would...

[@bluestormpony]

Ngl id allow an army that was just small bowling balls with ogors glued to the top

[@Bluecho4]

@@bluestormpony The Lore: Some ogres discovered massive stone spheres from the Age of Myth. Rolled them to the top of a mountain through brute strength, then let it roll back down while riding it, at whatever their target was. Or else just harnessed the power of the eternal blizzard, and got them flying like a tornado running through a trailer park.

[@rotmirerob]

Heywoah teaches you this ONE secret that new players HATE

[@People3004]

strangely reminds me of someone....

[@MakO67572]

Everyone said all the praises on the video already, but I just want to say again how much I love this tts visual representation shit. It's not as flashy as a well edited video with many jupcuts, but it certainly looks appealing and is informative

[@tubarao_happy]

As a Sons of Behemat player, I thank you from the bottom of my heart. I've really been struggling with dealing with double turns lately, definitely gonna use this next game.

[@glizzy2.O]

After the last video this just makes sense 👍

[@AGloriusCrushingz]

15:50 Shots fired at Miniac, as if he hadnt been thoroughly roasted already lmao

[@HeyWoah]

not intentionally. According to research I did recently A LOT of people just only ever play 1k and path to glory, and so it's totally understandable that so many people have complaints.

[@Fezzik312]

6:41

[@greenghost2008]

I'm Lumineth. I love the double turn. Imagine your opponent double turns while all my Elf spells are active. Two turns with Total Eclipses. Thank you Archmage.

[@HeyWoah]

LRL are just Stacked for weathering doubles

[@jeremy1392]

​@@hades_deathgod9496 I feel like LRL are an army where if you don't play them with a lot of skill, they're terrible while if you play them with skill, they're hard to beat. Also your options are bring texas for consistency or don't for less consistency, but obviously consistency is better so he's an auto-include. I feel like the army, with the possible exception of mostly Alarith, requires him which is not design I like. I think centerpieces should be something solid enough that most armies take them, but not a case where not taking them feels like you're shooting yourself in the foot. Sure he's expensive but indispensable. Now I've started to figure out the Lumineth castle, I go into games saying "do I want to win today or throw?" against many matchups.

[@andrewamann2821]

That cold open killed me, sir. Well played.

[@thealteredmind9475]

Really solid advice for new and even old players

[@nathancliett401]

"It's an on ramp, your not supposed to park there" This is good, I'm using this.

[@_MattYee]

Classic so-so pro video. Good content, I enjoy

[@GDPanda69]

That last tip, keklul

[@jeremy1392]

I think there are a variety of different reasons why especially new players just deploy everything on the line and then move them their full move: 1. In a lot of games, movement is seen as a resource, and you want to utilize your full resources and capabilities, "I paid for the whole speedometer, I'm gonna use the whole speedometer." 2. "Real armies often moved like this," you line up as long as you can reasonably cover with support assets behind and either march forwards or charge. It's very cinematic to see on the table. 3. "The game is balanced by points, so the game should be balanced regardless of how I play." I subconsciously held this notion for an embarrassingly long time. I may not have been just moving my stuff forward but I was saying "all lists, playstyles, and play levels should be equally balanced" which was addressed well in the balance powerpoint vid. I should watch that for the eighth time. 4. "I want to bowl through the enemy army even if I don't play ogors" I've even seen people do this in 40k with gunline armies, charging ranged only units into melee range (9e 40k won't let you shoot in melee so ranged units are way worse in melee in 40k)

[@steelytemplar]

These are some very good insights. I can see myself thinking this way easily enough. lol. Ironically, regarding point 2, historic generals have pulled off some great victories precisely by not moving like that and instead letting the other guy do it so that the enemy ends up in a very bad position.

[@palmermiddlekauff6030]

Instructions unclear: I ate all the scotch brand scissors

[@HeyWoah]

I usually get an extra one when I'm shopping, you know, to eat on the drive home.

[@traiantulbure3819]

Best video on the subject I’ve seen. I’ve only recently started playing with priority as a tactical consideration, as opposed to a randomly dictated event, and I’m gonna watch this vid before each of my matches. Thanks.

[@unforgeti]

Great clip, thanks for both being informative, and keeping it funny.

[@ventedurchin8074]

sometimes when i win the priority roll i like to hand my opponent the double turn just to mess with there heads

[@khulric3479]

Beautifully done. I very much enjoyed this.

[@mirchiamemeina1524]

Love it, boosting algorithm, thank you for helping me understand how this works a bit better~

[@CarbonMage]

Thanks for this. I've been trying to get the hang of playing around the double.

[@linkerss]

I'm a simple man. I see a HeyWoah video, I watch it.

[@darthdubiousgaming]

Broh. We need more content like this. Awesome content, Heywoah, as always!

[@donotinteract7851]

Pro tip: use weighted dice ONLY for the priority rolls. Never get double turned. Easy money.

[@HeyWoah]

VAC detected

[@TheMagicalPinata]

@@HeyWoah I mean they are just following your instructions at the end of the video by just rolling 6's. So at the end of the day, it is really your fault for inadvertently promoting such behaviour :P

[@Shaftoe28]

If funny that you posted this today. I just got home from my first ever GT, day 1 went 3 - 0 and day 2 went 0-2 for a solid 3-2. So this will be fun to see what I can do to help with the turn to as I'm still new to competitive play!

[@HeyWoah]

I think most 3-2 players know the stuff in here, I tailored it for a newer audience. But there could be a gem in there somewhere

[@kewanzahedinour7304]

True, except the last tip, nearly lost last game to only rolling 6es, the battleshock phase was a nightmare xD

[@thatoneguynobodylikes8553]

Great video, I watched the whole thing!

[@kellyhoesing2573]

But if I master the double turn I can't just blame all my losses on it

[@lloydjamieson2143]

After watching that video learnt heaps but more importantly makes me really want to play tabletop simulator now. You should have a video on how to play it for newbies.

[@WeOnlyEatSoup]

First ever AOS battle tomorrow! My glorious Skaven vs Storm cast eternal, I'm big hyped! Great timing for this video

[@josephskiles]

Good luck, let us know how it goes! I'm still trying to work up the nerve to play my first game.

[@HeyWoah]

Remember to let opponent know it's your first game, also it takes about 4 or 5 of them to get used to mechanics so this is data time and xp grinding

[@WeOnlyEatSoup]

​@@josephskiles first game ended up being Wednesday, my skaven vs Slave to Darkness 1k. I did more damage to myself, it was glorious lol can honestly say I love AOS (Hey woah your videos are a huge help to us rookies!)

[@josephskiles]

@@WeOnlyEatSoup that's what makes Skaven so insane and so awesome!

[@LakeyWargames]

Some great tactical advice in here. Nice one HeyWoah! :) Sometimes less is more and master usage of the most basic plays can win you more games than the fancy stuff will! :)

[@swaggyshadow2124]

Last tip best tip

[@Aliashavoc]

Tip 6 was all I needed to hear

[@TheBerchie]

Here's hoping that HeyWoah's next video is a Soulblight Gravelord review, faction focus guide.

[@jamesn2830]

I think these tips will actually help me to play better

[@keithrogers6876]

Excellent content as always HeyWoah, your time and energy put in to these is appreciated ^^ Courtesy of the GHB going up to $84 Australian and only being relevant for 6 months, my gaming group has stopped buying/playing GHB and have instead switched to playing more casual battleplans (narrative, etc) without the seasonal stuff. And as we are no longer playing Matched Play, we went back to the Core Rules priority which means first battle round is a roll off and finishing deploying first just wins ties. It has made it more interesting in my opinion as it isn't just "I one drop so you go first" every single game..

[@vandamwtc]

Love your channel dude

[@Questioningbasics]

Followed your advice on just roll 6s, now all my models are running away from battleshock

[@Bluecho4]

If you have that curse, it'll be time to switch to 40K 10th ed. As the last "rolling low is good, actually" element, Morale, is changing to "no, rolling high is still better". Hope you play some version of Daemon-heavy Chaos.

[@schmlondaysxd9504]

the return of the king

[@sjarcadeaosmtgedhgames5563]

BIGBIGBIG

[@bluestormpony]

Ty. Ive gotten doubled turned in literally every game its been possible . So it will be good to learn how to survive them

[@bluestormpony]

Post watching the video. Thank you so much for the examples in this video, they are gonna change how i play my army and hopefully will put me on the path to eventually winning a game

[@cyriltournier5784]

Good advice. Listen to the man ;)

[@Malisteen]

Love this video. It should come in the AoS app as part of the core rules. GW should have put it on the article today about keeping the double in 4e.

[@Jweel000]

Awsome , ty

[@derekgehring2771]

Your videos are a very nice mix of entertainment and education. You edit very well and do a good job presenting your arguments. Is AoS the only table top wargame you play? If its not, what other wargames do you play?

[@jonathondaniels2127]

I think the main issue with the double turn is that it has such a disproportionate impact upon lower skilled players and players playing smaller point level games. A lot of people are happy to get a game a month in and a lot of people play lower point games due to time space and cost factors. Simply telling these people to 'git gud' or 'you're playing the game wrong' isn't really an answer I don't think.

[@TheMiniJunkie]

I also just (personally) think it holds the game back from even wider adoption, because to a potential new player "sometimes your opponent goes twice in a row" (which let's face it, the average new player is going to take away from this rule) is likely a pretty high "nope out" trigger. Conversely, I have to assume AoS is a strong/fun enough game that existing players would not churn out if priority was removed.

[@HeyWoah]

Their thought process (as I see it) is that casual players won't care and just enjoy the timmy random hype moments, while the competitive players will enjoy another mechanic that they can show off their skill by mastering. GW's idea of casual is extremely beer and pretzels, however, so many players end up in the mid-zone.

[@HeyWoah]

@@TheMiniJunkie I definitely don't want the game I like hugely changed for the worse to chase wider adoption (as most fans of any game/IP don't). As a company I'm surprised they haven't yet. Watering down your niche game so it becomes more popular but loses what makes it special seems like some sort of law at this point.

[@Alucard291]

@@HeyWoah 2 things there. There is literally zero feelgood factor to winning a double turn for a new player. "Oh I've won because I've doubled you - so I've won because of a single dice roll". There is also nothing more boring and disheartening for a new player than getting doubled. You sit there for half an hour taking off models off the table. Then you sit there for another half an hour doing more of the same. Also I note how quickly AoS fanbase shuts up about mitigation when you mention shooting armies and starts waffling about "well erm uuhhhhh yeah that's bad". AoS is currently one of the genuine feelsbad games I've played.

[@SmolShorkess]

Wait age of sigma is fun and not just chance?! Wish I knew this before I was 3 army’s deep.

[@jeremy1392]

A great example of a damage-dealer unit with no delivery method is the Rough Riders in 40k. On paper they have jetbike movement and they hit like a truck. In 40k, enemies can't see through buildings so just hide behind then rush out, right? Except cav can't move THROUGH buildings like Infantry can, and the models have such a big footprint you have to hide them DEEP behind a building, to the point where you move 6" around and 6" past the terrain, so you might as well just use Infantry anyway.

[@Mithrus]

Top video

[@RedHatRuss]

Another cracking good video! Random question, but what's the TTS build you're using here? It seems really nice 😊

[@HeyWoah]

It's pinned in my discord somewhere I think it's stormvault or something

[@DavePottsAmI]

Big! Exciting! Things! :D

[@GG-Parsley]

The priority roll is a fantastic game mechanic. I only recently started playing AoS (a few months) and I was very surprised when I found out there is a large amount of people who don't like it.

[@thelordkragan1888]

It is a horrid mechanic, but not for the reasons folks harp about. Assuming you take 20 minutes to end a turn, a double turn doubles the down time.

[@davidcanty7903]

My joke army, 360 clan rats, presents a dilemma to my opponent. They always beat me on drops. So do they give me first and let me get the horde close to the objectives. Or give me second

[@Lodorn]

@HeyWoah Unrelated to this video (which is great btw.) I have been watching the VOD from one of your streams a week ago (SCE vs Ogors) and saw you struggling with setting up the table. If your deployment zones or Objectives fall through the table, you can move them up. Just grab the third tool from the bottom on the side bar and select the Battle Plan map next to the table, grab the up arrow and just slightly play with its position on the Z axis. Some for the deployment zones; select the deployment zone select thingy, grab the up arrow and move it up/down until it stops flickering/bugging into the table. It also helps to delete the standard map the table starts out with. If you click any of the bags, it will put a 2nd map on top of it, which is part of the problem why in some cases stuff is positioned to low.

[@HeyWoah]

someone in chat said this as well and it's fixed!! But also can you believe my editor didn't cut out the dead air of us struggling to set up the table??

[@Lodorn]

@@HeyWoah I don't know, I think it's charming :>

[@honzatomecek6415]

Hey man! Thanks for the video. Awesome as always;)🎉 Just a short question. Would like to start TTS. Living in a remote area and dont have an opportunity to play as much. Any good links, how to learn TTS, tips etc.?? Thanx!! Jan

[@HeyWoah]

My discord has a tts section with pins for all the tutorials. It's gonna cost you ten bucks and maybe an hour of setup.

[@Jerm-ct5jf]

big

[@Milkakuhist]

More faction focuses please!

[@RyanCunningham]

It's a very good mechanic that makes the players think offensively and defensively... A fools move would be to overcommit their forces, just like you said and then their opponent outflanks them, and ties up their center in melee combat, while cavalry moves up

[@shinankoku2]

Mind blown

[@reidzalewski4563]

On tip 6, I feel oftentimes that I have the exact opposite problem. 2k is very much Age of Breadmar, and feels played out to me, so playing at 1k or 3k feels way more dynamic.

[@massimorolli7380]

Thanks for the video. Just one question: wouldn't make more sense if the advantages that go to the player that goes second (removing objectives, extra CP, etc) , did instead go to the player that lost the priority roll? Since going second already seems tactically much better... From the rules it seems that the game is written by people that don't realize going second is better.

[@HeyWoah]

In their head maybe they think that losing priority is the same as going second - which to be fair in most gameplay of AoS I see that ends up being true. And the person going second half the time maybe got doubled? idk. Worth testing in any case.

[@ungface]

edible scissors? finally, my dream utility item

[@deusmortis9751]

You've changed my mind in double turns😊

[@cambabamba4159]

Hey HeyWoah, will your content always be about the gameplay or will you ever make strictly lore videos? I'm happy either way, just curious.

[@HeyWoah]

I bet I'd be a lot more popular if I ever did lore stuff

[@stevebohn4439]

What virtual table top is that? I'll work on just rolling sixes🤣

[@dukedevlan5457]

I do respect your opinion, and as a 40k player, i have always preferred the "you go i go like most board games and war games but i can see why people like the mechanic

[@elias1579]

Also AoS had alternating actions and command abilities In your opponents turn. It’s a lot different than 40k

[@dukedevlan5457]

@Elias now the alternating actions sounds cool being able to give you more to do on( there turn)

[@RionikuAnjiru]

There is definitely predictability to the priority roll. And ways to play around it The largest problems with it are : 1- Outside of a tournament where competitiveness matters more than anything, it's not fun watching your opponent playing 20+ minutes turns at you in sequence with very limited interactivity, especially if that's the turn that kills you. Sure you can unbind, rally and redeploy, but it's not.... you know, playing a turn. 2- Again in casual play, if a priority roll decides the game, you may not have time to play another game afterwards. AoS games take a long time. Your fun was cut short because of random chance. 3- Even at the the highest level of play/tournaments, having "priority control" is by far one of the most game-shaking aspect of the game. If it wasn't, there wouldn't be upwards of 50% of tournament lists that clock in at under 4 drops. 64% of tournament lists take a Battle Regiment. With the strength of Sharpshooters or Warlord, there's a reason for that, and it's that.... 4- Going second in the first round (unless you're LRL or something) is an insanely huge advantage. Because you don't "get the double", you "choose the double" as you mention. So if you're forced to go first and your opponent wins the priority roll, you're punished if you play defensively (because they can give it) and you're punished if you play aggressively. The second player has every conceivable advantage, and even if they choose to give the turn, they're still in a state of advantage the following round. AND they get an extra CP AND they get the bonus heroic action this season. 5- The most crucially flawed argument in your video, in my opinion, is that "if both you and your opponent do whatever" the priority roll decides everything, then it's a flaw of game design. A game that is decided, ideally, by 200 dice rolls over the course of a game, shouldn't have a very large percentage of its outcome decided by a SINGLE ROLL if both players are not experts. This is how people bounce off your game. This is how you lose player retention. I appreciate the video. It was informative. But it doesn't make any room for arguments that would be against the priority roll. Even if you like the mechanic, it's not perfect. It doesn't need to be removed (although I personally wish it would be), it could be adjusted. For instance, why are there 12 different battalions if getting to 1-2 drops is the key to victory? Clearly mistakes were made. Anyways. This was a long thing, but there's a lot to be said on the subject.

[@HeyWoah]

My video is about what a person can do about these points in and before the game, as a player with agency. A game design lecture would look very different, as would a persuasive essay video.

[@RionikuAnjiru]

@@HeyWoah I would really love to hear your take on this. Food for thought on the next video. Still really enjoyed what you produced here, keep it up.

[@stylesheetra9411]

what workshop mods are you using for tts?

[@HeyWoah]

stormvault I think? it's pinned in my discord

[@raigomander2817]

cool

[@binderstonsvault8532]

Slaanesh vid when?

[@cyruswhite1585]

bro miniac saying he's a so so pro though

[@reede2712]

Strategy and tactics in a wargame? Say it ain't so!

[@Stryder467]

I'm a Kharadron Overlords player with a group of relatively new AoS players. How do I persuade my group to stop hating my faction? xD

[@xavierwt]

Hey mate. I just discovered your Channel but I see you haven’t been making new content on KZbin. Any plan to come back to it?

[@gergely6142]

Playing, and watching more games recently, I realised the problem is not that a double turn wins games. The problem is that in most games, there is that one turn, when winning the priority roll wins the game. Now, this could be as late as turn 5 (and between players of equal skill it usually is), but it will happen, and will always feel bad. Even the game designers had to admit that winning priority is a big deal, and started to give advantages to the player who goes second to try and mitigate it. Not sure if there is anything that can be done about this, but I thought it is a problem worth mentioning.

[@HeyWoah]

At some point, your last hope usually comes down to a die roll of some sort. Sometimes it's priority, or a charge roll that needs to succeed, or 2 damage to kill a hero at range, or combat rolls, a run to get to an objective because you ran out of command points. It's a dice game. That roll didn't decide on its own. Your decisions throughout the whole game led to you putting yourself in the position of needing that roll to win. Your opponent's choices factored into it getting to that point. You can't control which number a D6 shows when you roll it - focus on the things you Can Control.

[@gergely6142]

@@HeyWoah I agree that if I am in a situation where I have to win the roll-off to not lose, and have a chance, then I made a mistake somewhere during the game. And that is fine. The "feels bad" moment comes from the times when it is a win or lose roll-off for both players. Either because we are both set up to do massive damage the next turn, or because it is the last turn, and the one who gets to go first can deny the grand strategy, or scoring objectives or BTs to his opponent. I see this happen too often. Is there a better system? I have no idea. I play a lot of 40k too, and the first turn priority roll is not perfect either. But I guess it gives the players the perception that they have more control over how a game goes.

[@HeyWoah]

​@@gergely6142 That's both players (on purpose or not) deciding long before hand to go all-in on that prio roll. You can play safe or you can just blaze it. And if both just blaze it then they're putting their fate in the hands of one roll-off. A lot of times people say that prio "ruins an otherwise close game" but I don't understand this. Isn't winning or losing based on a 50/50 a close game? By definition?

[@gergely6142]

@@HeyWoah I agree on that second part, the most I can say about prio is, that it ruined my plans for the following turns. On the first part, not all factions can, or not all missions allow you to play it safe. At least not if you want to score points, and win the game. And sometimes one of the players don't really have choice, but to go all-in. (like playing against old DoK with a full combat faction. But I guess that is a rock to my scissor situation).

[@RionikuAnjiru]

@@gergely6142 Yeah seriously, try playing safe on turns 1-2 of Realmstone cache.

[@itsjoops]

I'm pogging epically.

[@scenicplay]

Big

[@spiritofgroot1999]

Where the so-so pro merch please?

[@bastardizedplebeian9275]

I just love painting… and pretending I can play

[@Nazrick]

Hey what is that virtual game board called?

[@HeyWoah]

Tabletop Simulator

[@Nazrick]

@@HeyWoah thanks for the reply! Great content.

[@tonyfranksland428]

I always want to try AoS, and looks like Tabletop simulator is the way to get in to understand the rule before buying an army (With this best Rule channel on YT too lol)

[@vizjereigaucho6469]

ABC

[@bob3ironfist]

+

[@borisdevilboon8064]

As a true Chaos enjoyer, I love the priority roll almost purely for the malding it inspires in some people, primarily those whose assumed goal is to walk to table and from beneath the anime glare of the glasses state "i have already won". Not for me fam. If I knew the outcome I wouldn't want to play. Id happily play a wargame system driven by d100 tables of randomness if i could.

[@ImaNecron]

I still hate the double turn. Also the big issue I run into is alpha strikes. Kharadron, no screening can help. Or stormcast deepstriking shooting. I’m trying to make coalesced work, but they just are crap compared to starborne. And I did my bonereapers against Kharadron. I went first so I could get the +1 save on everything. His whole army was in 2 boats. He had more shooting than me having melee. It’s nuts. I ended up winning the game, but it wasn’t fun. I didn’t get to hardly do anything because he just sat and shot and did mortals on charges. If it wasn’t for some stupid stuff (like unrendable but buffable save) and the counter charge, it would’ve completely sucked. But that’s the thing, if I wasn’t playing bonereapers, I would’ve lost early.

[@verycoolipromise7150]

Hahah yes, getting good at game :)

[@Juicyjim57]

Like a lot of the people who are hating on the priority, I started with 40k. So I get the culture shock. That said, the best thing I ever did was come to terms with the fact that AoS is a different game. Like, for real. It's not just a few rule tweaks and better models. Expecting turns to play out as if it's just 40k with a fantasy skin is only setting yourself up for disappointment. There are a lot of casual AoS players who mainline 40k in my local group who really struggle with this. They are good players, but they play like the double isn't a thing and then blame the rules rather than their inability to adapt to them. Be the better player. Lose a bunch, figure out why, and learn the game. Or don't. That's fine too. Nothing wrong with not enjoying a game. Not jiving with your personal tastes doesn't make it bad. It just means you should spend your time finding something that does. Don't play if it isn't fun. And definitely don't bitch on the internet as if your personal preferences somehow align to a universal truth on good game design.

[@Antozaar]

8:20 - what are you talking about?

[@HeyWoah]

The player going second at the start of each battleround can't be doubled, because the two outcomes are 1) You go again or 2) opponent goes. So if you win prio and give it away, you'll be going second next battleround again, and turn sequence will have been normal, with no doubles. Process repeats next round.

[@shinankoku2]

The problem is that I only have fun playing Warhammer when I’m winning. When I play Infinity, I have fun when I lose too.

[@HeyWoah]

My favorite games are typically ones I lose at tournaments, I guess to each their own.

[@maridan48]

The thing is. I just don't like it. The extra layer of complexity and strategy it adds, I can clearly see it being a plus for other people. But even when I have everything planned out, I have my shaft well positioned and known that can I hold the double turn, when it happens I can't help but groan. It might sounds like I watched this video with my mind already made up but I did do a lot of research when I first found out about double turn. It's just a rule that whether or not it works for or against me, I don't enjoy it. And eventually I just stopped playing.

[@HeyWoah]

There's nothing wrong with this take and it's reasonable. I personally hate the mechanics and gameplay of MOBAs - and so I don't play mobas.

[@RionikuAnjiru]

If you play with friends, you can houserule out the double turn. Makes the game real fun!

[@HeyWoah]

Having tested out AoS games that didn't have priority, I can honestly say the game is far worse without it. You'd need drastic and sweeping changes beyond just tossing you go I go in there. Not the least of which being determining who gets the 1st turn ends up being "the prio roll that lost me the game" anyway, except right away instead of at the end. It's a much harder problem to solve than people make it seem.

[@RionikuAnjiru]

@@HeyWoah ​ In my experience it's gone pretty smoothy straight up removing it; this is our main way to play with my friend group (7 or so people) and we all agree that it is a superior exprience. We do have to roll off "priority bonuses" such as double heroic actions and whatnot, which does re-introduce some randomness, although not nearly as much. Being a gang of mostly 40-or-sos, if a game is over by turn 3 because of a bad prio roll and it's 10pm, we're not playing another one, so it really helps games go the full duration. YMMV, as always.

[@rotm4447]

inb4 they just remove it in 4e to bring in new players instead of catering to neckbeards.

[@HeyWoah]

god that would suck

[@winterh46334]

But like... Why does it even exist?

[@elias1579]

Because it creates permutation. They seem to want meld your experience into a seamless game. To blur the lines between you go I go in a full army game. It will continue to head into the direction of “not my turn your turn, our turn.”

[@winterh46334]

@@elias1579 yeaa i can understand that, but i mean first of all why? Its a turn based game that people enjoy for that aspect.

[@elias1579]

@@winterh46334 I have played 40K since 6th Ed, and waiting 30 minutes so your opponent can play is boring. Interaction and engagement is always more fun, and having some control of the outcomes in Your opponents turn is better for balance

[@cjyoubusta5072]

Sounds like WAAC toxic OP try hard nonsense

[@thel1chking]

Yeah but …top players lose to the double as well. Case and point : LVO ‘22.

[@HeyWoah]

Yeah it's almost like both players are trying to win in a dice game.

[@thel1chking]

@@HeyWoah so we … agree then ?

[@HeyWoah]

@@thel1chking ?

[@greenghost2008]

Another point. If we didn't have double turns there would be a massive problem with first turn advantage. This is probably why it exists to begin with.

[@HeyWoah]

The people who want priority gone probably want it replaced by rules that magically solve all of that as well, but realistically it would prob just copy 40k except be worse.

[@badbones777]

@@hades_deathgod9496 Oh okay - not played either of them, though heard good things about both. Lot of people say MESB was one of, if not the best things GW ever did. Blood Bowl is super push your luck/playing odds oriented - I really like that system too.

[@badbones777]

​@@hades_deathgod9496 It is meant to be very good, and from the sounds of it it does sound pretty great. Saw it played at an expo a good few years ago when it was pretty new and from what I remember it looked fun. Blood Bowl and teh specialist games remained (comparatively) healthy even when GW wasn't doing them anymore from the 90s and I love all them too. It depends what you want, ultimately. Systemically I like a ton of different things for different types of games. I mean I even play those big Hex-and-Counter wargames by people like GMT. I'll have to try Underworlds as a friend has a couple of....I don't even know what they are - warbands? Anyway yeah I'll have to try it.

[@Greatkingrat88]

As a longtime 40k player, I really like Age of Sigmar... except the double turn. I _hate_ the double turn. Literally every time it happens, it ruins a fun, even game. It really sucks because I enjoy the game otherwise. It's just such a deeply un-fun mechanic that it keeps me away from the game entirely.

[@HeyWoah]

I hope this video gave you the knowledge necessary to have fun!

[@Greatkingrat88]

@@HeyWoah You make some interesting arguments, but it's hard to argue with the crushing experience of disappointment.

[@Redrik666]

As I've said many times. Lots and lots and lots of people either won't play AoS because of the double turn or they play the game and enjoy it less than they would be if it were gone. Pretty much nobody would quit the game if they got rid of double turns. It is such a terribly feel bad mechanic. Even winning it just feels like shit because of how feelbad it can be for your opponents.

[@Greatkingrat88]

@@hades_deathgod9496 "Whoever charges first"? No, you'd still have "you go, I go" fight mechanics to make that not a thing.

[@Redrik666]

@@hades_deathgod9496 Assuming that were true that would be awesome. You sound like the type of guy who we don't want in the hobby anyways.

[@s2korpionic]

15:56 Man this sounds super try-hard, it's so cringe.

[@kurukblackflame]

'Double turn is a good mechanic and actually makes the game better' Also-'You must take Battle Regiment to minimise drops so that you get to choose priority. Otherwise you're fucked'. Hmm-Not seeming like a great mechanic if I'm honest. If a rule precludes the vast magority of builds or options from most armies then is it a good one? Yes, you can mitigate the effects of the double, but that's like saying you can mitigate the effects of being stuck in a life boat in the pacific by consuming the rotting remains of your fellow passengers. Staving off satrvation is good but the situation still sucks. I'm pretty casual but I do want to win. Winning isn't everything though. I'd rather have a close game that I lose than an absolute curbstomp that I win. In my experience the double turn just makes the game worse. I've seen dozens of videos and played dozens of games where this is the case. It has never made the experience of playing the game better. It HAS ruined a lot of games. If it's a well balanced game that balance is ruined by the double. If the player doing well wins a double they go from winning to absolute domination. If the player on the back foot gets the double then they get a chance to recover. That's the best outcome-Robbing the player that was winning of their deserved advantage. In all three scenarios the game is made worse. I can deal with it-Though that kind of depends on the army. My Kruleboyz for example are basically doomed if they get doubled by a suitably aggressive enemy (screens of hobgrotz and gutrippaz can only do so much) while I feel far more confident with my Cities army (Phoenix Guard + Phoenix ftw). So some armies are fine with the double whilst others have little to no way of dealing with it. 'Get good' is of course the easy reply to complaints about the double-But perhaps that's a statement that should be leveled at GW game design. 40k can suck because of massed shooting and whole army activation. AofS is a lot better in that regard thanks to less shooting and alternating combat, but for me the double turn pushed the game in the opposite direction of what I'd like to see. Having to wait around (with minimal input and reactions) while your enemy activates their whole army is kind of dull. Having to do that twice in a row? It really sucks. Commands and what have you have made it better, but they're still more of a plaster on the neck stump rather than a fix.The double turn sucks.

[@HeyWoah]

Your first paragraph is an entirely wrong summary of my video. I may come back later to read the rest, but man you gotta start out making sense for a post that long.

[@kurukblackflame]

@@HeyWoah I apologise if I caused any offence-Your vidoe's very good and I may have come across as a bit aggessive in my response. Basically my opinion is that the double turn makes the game worse. As a lot of your video is about trying to stop the double turn from happening at all, I'd say that may not be too much of a controversial opinion. No offense meant to you. Your video was really helplful. I just absolutely hate that mechanic. Thanks for the great vid :)

[@HeyWoah]

@@kurukblackflame It's the most central mechanic of the game that creates tons of push and pull, play and counter play all the way from listbuilding to deployment to the turns before during and after. Priority IS age of sigmar. I like it a lot, many don't. Plenty of wargames out there for people who want normal predictable stuff like You Go I Go or alt activations, this is the weird one that I like.

[@icholi88]

No alternating activations are the only way to make a tabletop wargame, GW is just a dinosaur who can't let go of you go I go. Double turns are just another level of additional frustration on top of it and should be the first thing to go in any new edition at least if you care about matched play at all.

[@HeyWoah]

no