MATHCORE Essential bands debate w/ Sam Sutherland (This Exists) | LOCK HORNS (live stream archive)

[@tylerurrutia4608]

Love Dillinger Escape Plan. Ben Weinman is actually from my hometown. EDIT: I think you guys should have touched more upon the heavy jazz influences of mathcore.

[@trevorxvx]

That's awesome man, he's my hero. He still lives there from what I understand.

[@trevorxvx]

I also agree with the Jazz mention. Anyone who hears Mathcore or Dillinger especially would be crazy to say Mathcore isn't jazz influenced.

[@MetalTrenches]

Early Norma Jean deserves a spot here. Bless the Martyr and Kiss the Child is a monument to the genre. Even though they went more straight metalcore over time, their time with Josh, and also 'O God The Aftermath, was important to mathcore. If The Chariot belongs, so do they. Otherwise this is probably your most concise and accurate list.

[@adrianmojica2619]

The guy wouldn't care for early Norma Jean cause he "doesn't believe or care for Christian music". Don't know why he cares about that, but oh well.

[@ConvincingPeople]

@@adrianmojica2619 I mean, he included The Chariot in the episode, so that's a bit unfair. Either way, I'd check the playlist he made, as it contains several bands either not agreed upon here or only mentioned in passing.

[@benng4376]

This style was birthed in New Jersey with bands like Human Remains, Deadguy, Kiss It Goodbye, Burnt By The Sun and Dillinger.

[@bmcdickermeat5]

where is DEADGUY ... "Fixation on a Coworker" was one of the albums that definitely sparked this subgenre

[@F4RB3YONDM3T4L]

Literally wouldn’t exist without this record. Dillinger we’re trying to out deadguy deadguy

[@STEREODVST]

The Number Twelve Looks Like You, Psyopus, (some of) the Chariot. Dillinger is obvious. Tony Danza Tapdance Extravaganza is sorta mathy.

[@Dachrizzist]

+PersistentResistance Yeah I was curious if they'd mention TDTE as well.

[@RiceShouldBeFluffy]

+Elipse Jareth you know what I was thinking? where was Every Time I Die? When they're not being straight forward southern metal, they busted out some of my favorite incoherent messes in the genre. Hot Damn had some hot messes on it like "Romeo A Go Go" , and "She's My Rushmore" ; and even the new album has a song like "Idiot." if they didn't belong here they DEFINITELY needed to be in the metalcore episode.

[@SohcSTi]

+Jake Gam ETID hot messes are still more coherent than the bands here. Hot Damn was just a mix between Last Night In Town and The Big Dirty. Kind of a musical progression going from late 90's classic hardcore and that southern style they turned into.

[@rsiv2761]

even some old HHll, even tho their last two albums were the greatest thing EVER

[@RiceShouldBeFluffy]

omg Heavy Heavy Low Low was my shit in high school... a lot of their stuff hasn't really held up for me over theyears but Turtle Nipple was a pretty interesting. I mean yeah, I get why some people thought that album was a joke but I actually REALLY wanted Psychedellic Hardcore to become a thing. The only other bandd that were doing stuff like that besides HHLL was Duck Duck Goose and maybe Totally Unicorn. Granted, TU was really just a math core band but with comical joke CV lyrics and an obsession with dick jokes.

[@Anthonyp452]

You should bring Sam back for every episode. He's great at actually explaining his thoughts and knows his shit, and he also actually makes up his mind when formulating an opinion, he doesn't go all wishy washy, he says something and backs it up

[@jbk007311]

I agree...Sam is a good addition.

[@TylerDurden-nm4rv]

he wouldn't shut up the whole time he was just rambling

[@TylerDurden-nm4rv]

+nicholas biddle he completely took over a show he was a guest on if you watch the other sams face he starts getting frustrated from being railroaded so many times

[@WarrenBey]

Not a fan of this subgenre but Norma Jean, Psyopus, The Red Chord and Gaza should be added. Just because of their popularity at this point.

[@tuckerspellane1019]

Actually there were 3 albums before Jane Doe. Halo in a Haystack, Petitioning the Empty Sky, and When Forever Comes Crashing. WFCC is actually very influential

[@sydneykamer3434]

Super underrated stuff, especially When Forever Comes Crashing. Petitioning the Empty Sky maybe less so but then again... it's got The Saddest Day

[@JAG214]

Any type of metal music with core at the end has punk elements

[@JAG214]

Deathcore can have punk elements in it if you ask me

[@michaelscanlan6765]

+JAG214 It does. Deathcore is basically death metal vocals, death metal drums *at times*, metalcore repetitive chuggy riffs with hardcore punk political styled lyrics and breakdowns.

[@rsiv2761]

circle pits

[@neutron564]

RS IV eww all I want is slamdancing, does anyone just MOSH anymore

[@joeshmoe5168]

It’s called grindcore

[@Flugmorph]

you totally forgot to tell the people that mathcore is heavily influenced by grind

[@ConvincingPeople]

Sam Sutherland did touch on the grindcore roots of Daughters in particular, so it wasn't entirely ignored, although I agree that they could have gone into a little more detail on the matter.

[@Judah_Vor]

The Tony Danza Tapdance Extravaganza

[@1986wehttam]

Ion Dissonance, Botch, Early Norma Jean, Scarlett...maybe Shai Hulud but they are more on the tech hardcore side.

[@VCCassidy]

No mention of The Locust?

[@rsiv2761]

or head wound city!

[@VCCassidy]

I just saw Head Wound City perform live. To my ears they're just a new-school Hardcore band. Their songs are pretty straight-forward, whereas Locust was more interested in breakneck time changes and angular playing. Admittedly they're a bit more Grind-core than some of these bands though.

[@cobywhitson6077]

Psyopus definitely should have been included.

[@rtremblay87]

psyopus, ion dissonance, car bomb

[@touchly]

100% Daughters. as soon as i thought mathcore i thought daughters. my favorite band, i'd even go with hell songs being pretty math too.

[@JAG214]

Just found a band that should be on here is Car Bomb and I am really digging them to a point were I will never stop listing to them

[@morgothbeatz]

A Deathcore one is needed its been around almost 15 years and has huge bands in it. Go to any high school in America and you will see tons of deathcore band shirts.

[@RiseAndFall_]

Kiss It Goodbye, Anodyne, Training for Utopia

[@bemersonbakebarmen]

Im on with the Mathcore=Prog+Metalcore. Ive always tought as DEP as a mix between King Crimson and Mr. Bungle

[@sophrosynebristol]

I wanna see a grindcore one of these!

[@michaelscanlan6765]

+xX_dragonzanddungeonzmaster69_Xx Pornogrind is such an unecessary genre to add to anything... it's literally just derivative of everything before it and brings nothing new to the table. It's a joke. I don't mean that in a mean way, I feel it was literally made as a joke lol.

[@sophrosynebristol]

+Michael Scanlan yeah, without sounding pretentious, pornogrind doesn't really have any integrity as a genre. But grindcore is one of the most important extreme genres along side death and thrash, which is why I'd love to see a video on it

[@michaelscanlan6765]

Janussi Oh yea I agree on that, grindcore is hugely important. I am sure we will get one on Grindcore. Definetly one on Death and Thrash as well.

[@sophrosynebristol]

Michael Scanlan Fingers crossed!

[@loveroflife1438]

and noisgrind and cybergrind

[@robertlangdon3086]

I clicked so fast when I thought it said “Methcore”

[@ryanblackman4119]

Deadguy - Fixation on a Coworker Cave In -Until Your Heart Stops Drowningman- Busy Signal at the Suicide Hotline Burnt by the Sun - Soundtrack to the Personal Revolution Car Bomb - Centralia All albums deserving a big mention here. Especially Deadguy

[@BrightInThePocket]

Botch, Deadguy, Coalesce... Hardcore bands which liked things a little complex!

[@Patsfan2938]

A tad late now but just seeing this, Car Bomb is ridiculous and would deserve to be on this list for sure. May not have been on the radar back then.

[@smoked-old-fashioned-hh7lo]

meta came out shortly after this so it's understandable. meta was the album that got them more well known.

[@chapter_black3234]

I feel as though The Fall of Troy missed out on the opportunity to be considered on this list as even though they do have clean vocal, they do actually have varied time signatures and a sense of chaos that is so prevalent in Mathcore music

[@divinasi0n]

Much of The Fall of Troy's earlier music is the *definition* of Mathcore; but their guitarist/songwriter took the genre in a more addictive and accessible direction by placing those mathy riffs between catchy parts of their songs.... Doppelganger even has a few songs which are pure, undiluted Mathcore - and to this day I maintain that these songs on their 2005 album *Doppelganger* are the most sublime examples of Mathcore and what can be done with the genre. This is what happens when you get talk show hosts to discuss a subject they aren't truly knowledgeable on or discuss a genre they aren't legitimate fans of.... you end up creating a show that kinda misses the mark... For reference, listen to the songs *Laces Out Dan! & We Better Learn To Hotwire A Uterus.*

[@coprococore]

bands who were not mentioned that I consider "mathcore": breather resist, the locust, destroyer destroyer, tower of rome, tony danza tap dance extravaganza, ed gein, car bomb and the end (the early stuff). ion dissonance, psyopus and an albatross should get honorable mentions. discordant axis? i think they are more grind than anything else. what do you think?

[@angelocatapang6054]

rorshach,converge and dillinger escape plan are the godfathers of math hardcore punk metal.

[@Flugmorph]

every time i die for fucks sake

[@benarchist]

Flugmorph they have normal time signatures though

[@GiveUpDieYoung]

First couple of records straight up. The Logic Of Crocodiles is mathy as fuck

[@CarlosAugustoScalassaraPrando]

You guys need to do in the future about Avant-garde Metal or Experimental Metal, like Gorguts (Avant-garde Death Metal), Sleeptime Gorilla Museum, Unexpect (Canada), Mick Barr (Ocrilim, Octis, Orthrelm, etc), Krallice (for me it's Avant-garde Black Metal), Behold the Arctopus, Blotted Science, Blut Aus Nord (both Black Metal and Avant-garde Metal), Sunn O))), some Earth albuns, Negativa (Avant-garde Death Metal), etc. And, I think PsyOpus is Avant-garde Metal (Experimental per se), but i would considered they Mathcore too.

[@ThePerfectTrip]

Also, When Forever Comes Crashing is a great album from Converge, especially the remastered version. You guys must have only heard Halo in a haystack before Jane Doe lol.

[@jacktowers7533]

Djent is a thing at the moment, Periphery, Animals, Hacktivest. Tesseract, Born Of Osiris etc. its taking the Meshuggah rhythms and mixing it with even more technical leads and electronic elements especially with animals as leaders, its almost like Meshuggah meets Steve Vai with a bunch of other cool stuff, I think Meshuggah got the ball rolling into a new direction in progressive metal, and these news bands have ran with it and created a distinct and definable style, a lot like how tool and porcupine tree opened up the left field Avant Garde experimental post-rock, form of progressive metal. (which by the way also deserves some form of branch off of prog metal) and Back to Mathcore, it is a distinct style it has validity to it and i don't think its too young, its recent for sure, but it's significant, bringing in the technical, the hardcore, and the noise music together in a very unique way, Mathcore is definitely significant enough to garner its place on the tree, as does Djent and Avant-Garde/Experimental Metal

[@bemersonbakebarmen]

Porcupine Tree is not metal though influenced bands like Opeth, Riverside, O.S.I, Anathema and Katatonia

[@jacktowers7533]

@@bemersonbakebarmen porcupine got pretty fucking heavy after the Wilson/Åkerfeldt collaboration (and Opeth inversely became more classic Prog rock) Porcupine tree to me embodies the start of the left field, indie, post rock, shoe gaze, type shit in a metal context and helped make Avant-Garde metal a thing

[@Bakutakamine]

Car Bomb would've been fantastic. Tony Danza Tapdance Extravaganza, Psyopus also fantastic.Candiria also awesome not mathcore though.

[@metalheadrailfan]

I know there will be people who disagree with me, but I personally believe there should be a Technical Death Metal chart branching from both the Prog and Death Metal charts. Some bands in thosel charts could be moved over to there i.e. Dying Fetus, Nile, Gojira, and Opeth (You could technically include Death too, since Chuck became more progressive with his later material). Other bands like Atheist, Suffocation, Monstrosity, Cynic, Origin, Nocturnus, Gorguts, and Decapitated could be added as well. In the Death Metal chart, (I'm gonna sound like a fanboy) Death should be on top. Bands to add to that chart could include Massacre, Bolt Thrower, Cancer, Malevolent Creation and Broken Hope.

[@jbk007311]

I agree with you for the most part. Death is easily one of my favorite bands. Death should be near the top of Death Metal but I believe Possessed actually were the 1st by one to two years.

[@n1ckd752]

+R Goosen - I think DEATH really solidified what would later become known as Death Metal, Possessed definitely wins if we're talking strictly chronologically, but DEATH were way more influential on the 2nd wave of bands. So in terms of the overall impact on the Metal landscape, I'm gonna go with DEATH, but that's just my humble assed opinion. Also, I too would love to see a brutal/tech death discussion, especially in terms of newer bands like Fleshgod Apocalypse and Beyond Creation!

[@jbk007311]

+N1CK D I agree with you again, but Sam puts them on the chart in chronological order rather than by the degree that they influenced the genre.

[@MatthewOceanXVX]

Ion Dissonance is most definitely mathcore.

[@ConvincingPeople]

Just thought I should mention even if it's years late: Most of the bands people brought up here that weren't mentioned or wound up as ??? candidates such as The End, Candiria, Psyopus, Ion Dissonance, Architects and The Tony Danza Tapdance Extravaganza are on Sam Sutherland's mathcore playlist for Banger over on Apple Music.

[@MajorTom696]

im nowhere near a fan of any 'core' genres def not hardcore scene. but what i got from this episode is that these bands are post-hardcore and metalcore with a slight twist into madness.

[@SinnedNogara]

26:24 Periphery is a metalcore band (metalcore as in like 2000s era metalcore) with Meshuggah riffs. 28:00 Most djent bands to me just sound like metalcore bands that take Meshuggah riffs and vary in heaviness. Technical sure but I wouldn't call it "progressive" when all hte bands are really doing the same thing. I think it needs its own category.

[@b-roniousk9181]

What about Tony Danza Taxable Extravaganza?

[@2214ll]

So what you're saying Sam is that I'm not invited to the next Lock Horns episode because I brought up Linkin Park? Ok But you should know this. . . . . . . . . I WILL STILL BE THERE! And I'll bring up LP again! Whatcha gonna do now huh? #thuglife

[@aryanpugilist]

Here's a definitive list of Mathcore bands, old to new: The Dillinger Escape Plan. Converge. Coalesce. The Chariot. Botch. Norma Jean. Sikth. Candiria. Ion Dissonance. Knut. Poison the Well. Cave In. Old Man Gloom. Daughters. Psyopus. The Red Chord. Car Bomb. Vein. Frontierer. Ithaca. Lo!. Sparrows. There you go! A great list of Mathcore bands. The big change in this genre in recent times is bands opting for a lower tone and indeed, Djenting. However, Djent as a subgenre is different to these bands. It is an branch off of Progressive Metal. Mathcore is more experimental and noisy and has more roots in Hardcore.

[@bemersonbakebarmen]

You forget that experimentation defines half of Progressive music. Bands like Mother of Invention, King Crimson, Van Der Graaf, Hawkwind, etc. The whole Rock in Oposition bands. And what was Messhuggah if not experimental? What about Watchtower and Spastik Ink? And about the whole hardcore thing, The Mars Volta, Mastodon and Between The Buried and Me came from the hardcore scene. Progresive Metal is taking metal and adding musical complexity, any tipe of metal and musical complexity. Any kind of metal and complexity. You end up with bands like Neurosis or Enslaved that lean more on the atmospheric Pink Floydish sound and bands like Dream Teather or Opeth that end on the technical side. Mathcore is Progresive Metalcote a.k.a Metalcore with musical complexity from the more chaotic side of music.

[@aryanpugilist]

@@bemersonbakebarmen I never said that Progressive Metal isn't experimental. Mathcore just takes it down a different path and is an offshoot of Progressive Metal. Mathcore is Progressive. But as for the rest of what you said, I'm not sure why you brought any of that up? Meshuggah are progressive yes...when did I say they aren't though? Neurosis are not considered a Progressive Metal band at all where genres are concerned, but their music is progressive. Again though, I'm not sure what you're trying to say?

[@SevObzen]

These should be much longer. Like an hour and a half to 3 hours. Essentially podcast length. Also either kill the bell or make the times between the bell much longer.

[@dustintbrproblems]

I can't believe The End didn't come up at all. They're Canadian guys!

[@ConvincingPeople]

The issue with The End is that they have one amazing album which is indisputably mathcore… and two more records where both qualifiers are very much in question. Sam S. did put them on his mathcore playlist, though, along with a few other bands only alluded to in passing here.

[@coryleblanc]

Within Dividia, that album is still mind-blowing today

[@personavisceration371]

So many bands didn't make the list in addition to the ones listed below. Today is the Day, Maharahj, Examination of the, Playing Enemy, Janmichaelvincentcarcrash, the list goes on. Many of these continued on from a combination of early 90's noise rock (briefly mentioned), hardcore, grind, and tiny bits of metal and jazz. A unique sound, for sure.

[@Flugmorph]

converge had THREE longplayers before jane doe and two of them are amazing. their debut not so much

[@trevorxvx]

Hey Sam, my message I was typing was too long so I sent it to Banger's Facebook page. It has all the Mathcore info I could think of off the top of my head, including my knowledge on Botch, Dillinger, Converge, Coalesce, Car Bomb, Ion Dissonance, Psyopus, Iwrestledabearonce, etc. and what they are to Mathcore. I think It could be helpful to you relating to this topic. Thanks man. Trevor

[@barrywhitesavedmylife7957]

Don Caballero and Slint were the originators of this genre I reckon.

[@Tikitackfouls]

Spirit Caravan '79 math rock

[@bemersonbakebarmen]

Lisent to Discipline and Indiscipline songs by King Crimson and then the first Neu! album. Thats the seed. Don Caballero is the flower

[@jjceno6813]

Also I love me some Mathcore, much more than other, more "straightforward" types of metal, mostly because it quiets my mind and makes me feel peaceful for some reason

[@mrsteffi6612]

How about car bomb? An amazing "mathcore" band

[@xspartan346x]

The Chariot isnt mathcore but theyre great chaotic hardcore. imo wilder shows that Dillinger.

[@smoked-old-fashioned-hh7lo]

chaotic hardcore is mathcore. that's what it was originally called.

[@Dann1303]

I mean Architects first few records deserve a shout!

[@Hline513]

norma jean, the chariot, oh sleeper, between the buried and me... these bands should definitely be on this list

[@keepitwolfson]

Bill and Brann's first band Lethargy could totally be classified as a mathcore band

[@ifyourequiet]

I don't understand why its so hard for people to consider mathcore a genre. Its hardcore, heavy as fuck math rock, which started around the same time. Bizarre time signitures, heavy use of tapping, very derivative of prog. Math rock would be like The Fall of Troy, and Don Caballero, Monster Machismo, bands like them. Distort it more, scream more, speed it up, and make it heavy as possible and you have mathcore.

[@craigroaring]

What about Behold the Arctopus?

[@chadsmo]

I'm watching this video four months after it came out , but I was waiting the entire video for someone to bring up Behold … , they absolutely NEED to be on this list.

[@ConvincingPeople]

Prog-metal. Not the same thing at all.

[@craigroaring]

@@ConvincingPeople I would argue that mathcore is a sub-branch of prog.

[@krisumusic]

I've started recording my 6th album, which is my first debut metal album. However it's a hybrid between chillstep and metalcore, I don't think anyone have heard anything like it, I almost wanna call it "Lovecore". I have no clue what else fits. It's instrumental, very melodical and have inspiration from gothenburg metal and normal metalcore, however 50% of most songs have elements from chillstep (sub genre of melodic dubstep).

[@markusgc]

+Killigrew Music Are you trolling?

[@krisumusic]

+mark s Why would you think so? No.

[@krisumusic]

+mark s Crossing genres is really fun to be honest.

[@omega1231]

+Killigrew ♡ I guess i can see you're point about it being fun, but seriously mixing metal and any form of electronic music should be considered heresy, in my opinion.

[@krisumusic]

+omega1231 Youre missunderstanding it all. Almost all metal these days are done using computers, adding effects, synths digitally. So isnt it electronic? No people dont notice it, and nobody will notice it in my music aswell because I use software with beautiful synths and ethnic instruments etc. You would never even consider it being electronic music just the same way people ask me how I'm recording real pianos and flutes. But I'm not, it's electronic. Metal elitists don't know what kind of music they're missing out on because of their pure hate for everything non-metal.

[@epodcam]

So late to this discussion I know but, mathrock is a very definite genera, I think you could have used that to help decide. Did mathcore or mathrock come first? Also, to me at least Djent does seem to have enough of its own stylings to warrant a subgenera.

[@ShanghaiWall]

Back in the days, I was really into this genre, and 2007-2009 IMO were the times when mathcore really shined in all its glory. Bands I'd like to mention: Lye by Mistake, Car Bomb, Journal, The Crinn, Into the Moat, Bedlam of Cacophony, Sawtooth Grin, Letters in Binary, Misery Signals, The Heartland. Sadly, the majority of these bands are defunct.

[@ThePerfectTrip]

I really enjoyed this video, but I think Botch is easily the best band on here. Even with their short discography, they had such groove and Dave Knudson’s guitar work was top notch. Plus We Are the Romans is as near perfect as a mathcore album can get!

[@stefankienzle1587]

I laughed when they mentioned Ben Weinman hitting people with his guitar. I saw Dillinger in an old church three years ago. I was standing towards the front and two minutes into the set, Ben Weinman jumped off the stage and landed right on top of me. He managed to drop kick on my scalp and inadvertently club my head with his guitar in the same movement. Good times.

[@Charismatixa]

Just watched this for the first time, and I am genuinely upset that The Locust isn't here.

[@ConvincingPeople]

The Locust are a strange case. Arguably kind of part of the powerviolence scene, which was very much its own thing but ran parallel to early mathcore and influenced it.

[@seanbirch2118]

I personally think that the thing people who like Mathcore get out of it is the fact that it's a style where they can admire chaos. The nature of the tones and sounds of each instrument is uncontrollable. With said chaos and lack of control comes a warped and cocaine induced (metaphorically speaking of course) ambiance that no metal can match to it's (depending on if you like it or not) Credit for not caring about preciseness and playing what they feel or negligence of either musical ability or music that could be considered aesthetically pleasing.

[@focusman420]

just got here, but if Psyopus isn't here, WE RIOT!!!

[@generik88]

petitioning the empty sky is one of the first hardcore/metalcore cd's I ever bought

[@pain9270]

Frontrierer, Blotch, the tony danza tapdance extravaganza, ion dissonance, car bomb, psyopus, the dillinger escape plan, the number twelve looks like you, war from a harlots mouth, these are some bands I already know. I would like to find some new bands more in the style of ion dissonance or tony danza. Some really brutal and chaotic stuff.

[@mikeywarrior]

Heavy Heavy Low Low, Burnt By The Sun, Narrows, Car Bomb, Gaza

[@markservilio2357]

Great shout on Gaza. They crank up that math grindy "Jane Doe" sound to 11/10. "No Absolutes in Human Suffering" is an awesome record too

[@cuttynichols]

With every video Im discovering new music. Thats fucking awasome.

[@spacegrass2738]

First Cave In album is one of the best Mathcore albums of all time.Norma Jean not my favorite but they deserve a spot. Everything else is spot on.Maybe Gaza and BTBAM.

[@bqbhhhh]

DAUGHTERS FTW.

[@osbadekar8626]

By now, i would consider it a genre. A load of Mathcore bands have started showing up, and there are enough of them to place them under a new label.

[@jordeematthias9435]

Here's bands for a death metal lock horns. Cannibal corpse, severe torture, morbid angel, death, obituary, entombed, vital remains, immolation, incantation, insision, dawn of Azazel, Vader, krisiun, dismember, carcass, unleashed, autopsy, monstrosity, hate eternal, grave, exhumed

[@9rincewind9]

Into the Moat, Psyopus, Tony Danza Tap Extravanganza, early Architects, Figures, Structures, #12 Looks Like You, Ion Dissonance, Carbomb, etc.

[@CannibalXdeth25]

Liturgy has some pretty heavy math rock influences in aesthethica.

[@metaphoria3]

The Fall of Troy?

[@coryleblanc]

i think btbam belong on here with their first 2 albums

[@kitapostolacus6108]

While I think the connection to hardcore is obvious in mathcore, I think the connections to jazz and math rock are also worth exploring in terms of defining mathcore. for instance, mathcore is where jazz goes when jazz begins to fit a particular sounds and form. said another way, mathcore is the jazz of the metal world. Bands that really bring out the connection to jazz include: Dillinger, Shibo, and Cleric (this one iamcleric.bandcamp.com/album/regressions , not the death metal Cleric)

[@drewmiller8784]

3 before Jane Doe actually. Halo in a Haystack, Petitioning the Empty Sky, and When Forever Comes Crashing

[@adamgereluk6477]

Norma Jean, Every Time I Die, The Bled, Tony Danza Tap Dance Extravaganza and Protest The Hero? Only early Daughters was Mathcore.

[@touchly]

should have invited me on this! i can think of so many mathcore esque bands

[@Zakcology]

Ion Dissonance. Dysphoria. Ed Gein. Mathcore, to me, Is schizophrenic, sporadic, chaotic. More high screams than low. Technical and insanely fast.

[@bioblastbeats6450]

It IS a genre and it's heyday was years before any of these other bands! RORSCHACH, DEADGUY, SNAPCASE, early CAVE-IN, are all progenitors of said genre. Ask any band that made the list and they'll tell you the same thing.Oh and Sam, you're Canadian. Surely you must be aware that NOMEANSNO is credited as one of if not the first math-core bands.

[@goatthulu6662]

All Meshuggah songs; ALL, are in 4/4, the band themselves have said so. Thomas Haake's snare hits are just not always on either the 2nd or 4th beat of the measure, making some of their songs seem to have an odd time signature. I'm still not convinced mathcore is a proper subgenre though... if we consider mathcore should we consider technical death metal, I don't think so?

[@JAG214]

Mathcore is a rhythmically complex and dissonant style of metalcore.

[@laserrlife]

thank you for quoting the wikipedia article

[@Michael-hc3ft]

Can't believe Sutherland would write off the Chariot. They made a Dillinger show seem tame. They helped create the sound and bowed out at their top of their game. This list would be incomplete without them.

[@HS_Merciless]

I like The Chariot, but I always saw them as Norma Jean 2.0. Same sound, same home city.

[@deathkampdrone]

Also, the Converge albums before Jane Doe were and are fucking awesome! "The Saddest Day" and "My Unsaid Everything" are two of the best openers I can think of. "Albatross" is a fucking classic, "Love as Arson" is too, and the title track on When Forever Comes Crashing is a beast. They did not make a single lukewarm album until AWLWLB in 2012... Fact!

[@The_Cadaver]

Sam Sutherland was kickin' ass in this one. Definitely made a real effort to contribute.

[@chiqitahill2762]

the fact that Rorschach wasn't mentioned is criminal

[@mnames4892]

Sam Sutherland seemed very slightly arrogant at first, until he mentioned he wouldn't listen to The Chariot because they're a christian band. So fuckin what? I don't believe in religion, either. Chariot is great!

[@ConvincingPeople]

He did follow that up later by admitting that they're excellent despite his usual aversion to Christian rock thematically and aesthetically.

[@mremppu94]

Sweden, Sweden is where Opeth lives. *insert dorky smiley

[@angelocatapang6054]

converge are the quintessential math core band.i want that on my custom t shirt.those words.

[@joshuaopatz6973]

I'm here to explain my embarrassing viking/djent comment, i was trying to say how they are similar because each are a style rather than a genre, you can see this in that both of these types of music are performed by bands of various genres, viking metal is made of possibly melo death, black metal or power metal, djent can be deathcore, prog or metalcore, they are both styles rather than genres

[@TheCyanideSmoker]

I get math core confused with noisecore often....

[@65willdestroyyou]

yes, they overlap quite often

[@christianbruner779]

Multicore

[@fabriziogarreta7160]

There 2 completely different things

[@DanYuleo]

As for Animals as Leaders, they have very mathematical (math rock-sounding) songs, like Another Year, which, for being one of their cleaner songs, is one of their best IMO (it's like jazz-infused math rock, featuring metal after-burn).

[@The_Other_Ghost]

"Don't call me" Thank you Sam.

[@myramaynes4232]

When it comes to Mathcore it takes a lot of sporadic song structures with it's time signatures. It's not only how "complex" the time signature is but how sporadic it's played. Take songs like Endless Ending by The Dillinger Escape Plan or The Burning Halo by Psyopus. The songs carry a very sporadic sound. But that isn't what defines the sound of Mathcore. The combination of complex time signatures like in Math Rock are met with the heavy hitting styles of both Metal and Hardcore (Metalcore in a sense). As there are Mathcore bands today such as iwrestledabearonce who are mistaken for Deathcore. When listening to their latest album, Hail Mary, it demonstrates how far Mathcore has come. I've been a fan of Mathcore for many, many years and have studied it in many forms. There's a very thin line that parts Mathcore from things like Progressive Metal/Metalcore and that's the band(s) themselves. Clean vocals in Mathcore isn't far off the radar (Sikth, TDEP, iwrestledabearonce) but they way they are used part them from many. Not all, but most of the time, the vocals will follow the flow of the song when singing melodic tunes but in Mathcore it is usually a following of the time signatures. It tends to create a Scat-like, improvised structure along with a melodic SOUND minus the melody. Hard one to explain with typed words. But yes. Next time, if ever, you'd like to discuss this topic more in depth I would enjoy being apart of it.

[@adamlawson5021]

Where is Deadguy? They were definitely one of the first. Fixation on a Coworker might be the beginning of mathcore as a sound.

[@lukebyars5839]

Rolo Tomassi. Especially Hysterics and Cosmology. A lot of the bands they're classifying as prog rather than mathcore are blues based. I find a lot of mathcore is very jazz based. If you tweaked it a bit it would be experimental jazz.

[@GregChipelski]

It's funny how mathcore musicians actually look like they'd be into math 80% of the time.

[@isaaczaladar1174]

ION DISSONANCE,TONY DANZA!!!!the most brutal bands ever and not a single shitty metalcore there;!!

[@retrojohn8083]

What about Sixth? And maybe also Iwrestedabearonce. Could you also talk about the first Fantomas record as being proto-mathcore?