New Leica M10 Monochrom vs "old" Leica M Monochrom (Typ 246)

[@johndean9279]

I just bought a used M246 and it is the best thing I have ever done. I have only one lens between this and a (also bought as used) M242, a summilux 50 mm 1.4. After years of using DSLR cameras the discipline of selecting shots and thinking about what it means to take a photograph has reinvigorated my love of photography. The image clarity is breathtaking although I have a way to go on using the rangefinder system effortlessly. I was really happy to see your video and learned a great deal about the functionality of my camera. Thank you

[@jacobcarter4476]

Hi John, I know what you mean. I have an M246, M240, an M3 and a 50mm Summilux Asph and I feel exactly the way you do. I've found them a great step toward becoming a more deliberate photographer.

[@rexgigout1472]

Two years later, I have re-watched this excellent presentation. Seeing your comparison images reaffirms my decision to remain with the M Type 246 Monochrom. As my posted comment, from two years ago, had indicated, I did buy lenses, starting with a pre-owned APO Summicron-M 75mm ASPH, rather than spend money on an M10 Monochrom. Thanks, again, for assisting me in making that decision.

[@heresiarh]

I have used both cameras extensively. The advantage of the M10M is in low light. Period. Otherwise, with the right lens the 246 is pretty remarkable. If you want to get into rangefinder photography today then I highly recommend the M246. To save money on lenses you can choose from any of the Summarit line of lenses or a Zeiss 28, 35, or 50.

[@kindface]

Nothing pulls the magic out of Zeiss lenses like the defunct Contax G cameras, especially the G2. That combination is the last word in resolution and especially in micro contrast.

[@hellatightdude]

@@kindface it’s too bad that as a camera, the G2 kind of sucks. The lenses were flat out some of the best ever made.

[@MykeWinters]

My elmarit-m 28mm f2.8 asph, cron 50mm f2 v5 and apo 90mm f2 render wonderfully on my typ 246. Fantastic camera and lenses in my experience

[@Swade99]

The loss of functionality in the on/off switch - particularly the loss of the timer - was one of the reasons I sold my M10 and went back to the M240. I used mine a lot for landscapes and I liked to bracket my images. On the M240, I could select the timer on the on/off switch and bracketing in the drive menu. On the M10, I could only select one or the other from the drive menu. The M240 was a lot more functional (for my limited set of needs). Like you, I don't quite understand why Leica didn't see the logical value in keeping the on/off switch that way.

[@mathphotographer]

Fully agree my friend. Leica unfortunately removed functionality which was highly appreciated by photographers. Even the 1080p video was great in B&W.

[@gearreallydoesntmatter]

Both great cameras, would be happy with either one. But the OG M9 Monochrome.. once you see it, you cant unsee it.

[@mathphotographer]

Indeed.

[@rexgigout1472]

I am grateful for this very useful presentation. Your results are helpful, in my decision whether to acquire an M10 Monochrom, or, keep using my M Type 246 and original-version M10 cameras. The slimness of the M10, and its viewfinder experience, are quite nice, but I think that I prefer the physical control set of the M246. I think that I would rather that a good lens be my goal, rather than acquiring a newer camera body. Thanks!

[@TheLDunn1]

Very interesting comparison. I am surprised that there was not a more obvious image quality difference. The minimum of 320 iso on the classic monochrom I can see as potentially being an issue at times, but a work around could be an ND filter of course. The M10 more minimalistic button count approach appeals, but, as you pointed out, it seems a shame that the drive control around the shutter button on the Classic has been dropped. Generally, it feels like in some areas they have stepped forward & in others arguably backward. Generally, i often find myself looking at Leicas offerings and thinking ‘if only they had incorporated design aspects from another of their cameras’ For example, the M10 D - its a more extreme back to basics, old school shooting experience.....to my mind, it seems an obvious platform to be a monochrom camera. ...or, the ‘fake’ wind on lever of the M10 D, why didn’t they put that on all the M10’s? It looks like a very tactile handy feature which improves one’s grip on the camera, without needing a hot shoe thumb grip which then means you can’t use a flash or the EVF at the same time - the fake film advance lever solves this. It’s also on livery. Many like the while ‘Leica’ engraving on the top plate, it should be standard on all M’s. In many respects, I find Leica M’s quite frustrating in the ‘if only they had done’ stakes.

[@mathphotographer]

I tend to agree on your point that the new M10 series with former switch-on button (incl S, D, timer) and video and the thumb grip from the M10-D would be the perfect next level.

[@kimwaigel4059]

Considering that the market is full of almost new 246 for 3700 USD and that the M10M is only available new at 8200 +/- I guess that the 246 is a great way to enter the digital monochrome world?

[@mathphotographer]

100% agree!

[@joelek110699]

Great video! I'd love to see how these cameras compare to their colour counterparts though. A video where you compare the M monochrome to the M10 converted to Black and White would be great!

[@mathphotographer]

Will consider :)

[@malick_97]

@@mathphotographer Yes please this video would be so interesting. I´d like to see if there are real differences between m10 monochrome pictures and m10(or m10-r) pictures converted in black and white.

[@David-my3uu]

Wonderful, as usual. Bigger isn’t always better and I think that unless you’re in the business of placing billboards on the moon, 24mp is the sweet spot. Heck, maybe even 18!

[@mathphotographer]

24MP is plenty of resolution ... no need for more. Nice to have more for crop or super large prints, but not necessary.

[@JMC0704]

I’ve been watching your testing over the months and think you do a great job in real world scenarios. I really hate marketing hype. I have the Leica q and s. I still love the look of film very much and have film cameras. I wanted to pick up a monochrom for traveling oversees. I can save 3,000 on a brand new in box m246. I’m not chasing the pixel. What I want is a film look. I think the m246 should do the trick. Thank you for your help.

[@mathphotographer]

I also think the M246 will do the trick for you, excellent camera for many years to come! Thanks for the kind feedback on my channel.

[@kindface]

I came to this video because i found in another review video the Monochrom classic’s output more to my liking than that of the M10M. And here in this review, I find again the M classic marginally more to my liking than that of the M10M’s. Thanks for this video. I’m in the market for a digital M (most likely the M11) and a Leica Monochrom - I’m quite convinced that I would prefer the Monochrom classic (Type 246) to the M10M purely in terms of the output. I currently own the last-gen film Leica MP (ala carte) and the original Leica Q, among many other mostly film cameras going all the way back to the Canon AE-1 which i bought in 1980.

[@smichaelpridgen]

I'm thinking about getting the Mono 246 and trading in my M10.... I will also have a M10r and SL2 in my kit... I shoot a significant amount of my work in BNW but I don't feel the need to invest heavily into the M10 Mono because the Mono 246 is so comparable to the M10 Mono... I've been converting my files since the beginning of time to BNW... I have used the Q2 mono and like it but I don't love it... I figured I'd pick up another lens for my kit with the Mono 246 instead of paying the price tag for the M10 Mono body... the Mono 246, in my opinion, might be the most underrated camera (and Best purchase) for BNW shooters that don't want to pay the M10 mono price tag EVER. Thank you for your review(s). I appreciate you!

[@bradmirman3129]

Great video as always. Owning both cameras I would say where the M10M shines over the 246 is in low light conditions. Both are very good but the M10M is just amazing in very low light

[@hanspetscher5770]

I heard the reason why Leica got rid of the movie funktion in the M10 series is the limited space in the compared to the M240/246 smaller housing and the related sensor heating.

[@Paul-jb6rk]

More likely they understand that practically no one is going to use a rangefinder to shoot video. The experience is crap. You need a top quality EVF and stabilization which the M10 doesn’t have. There are a myriad of other options which you can adapt m lenses to at a fraction of the price. This whole thing is just silly.

[@MB-or8js]

Nops. Modern cameras can easily handle video capability with 4K in even smaller sizes. See my above point why it was likely removed - avoiding competition with the SL series.

[@hanspetscher5770]

There may be a couple of reasons. About a probable temperature issue I am citing Dr. Andreas Kaufmann of Leica having said so in an interview.

[@hanspetscher5770]

... let me add my own opinion about the „sensor overheating“ issue on hires movie functions of certain cameras prominently discussed now on many channels: the designers may have their own look on keeping sensors within specs rather than a potential failure. This may have been the case here too. Specs have their own prerequisites, one of them temperature, when they safely can be met or not anymore. As an example this certainly goes for noise. And having the movie function in the M10s will not make them a video camera anyways.

[@MB-or8js]

@@hanspetscher5770 The only time I can recall issue with overheating due to video were in the early Sony A7 versions (which were fixed with a firmware update) and now in the Canon R5 with 8K video which is on a different level. So I disagree that overheating has anything to do in the decision to slop video in the M10. Of course it's a convenient excuse which people fall for as shown by the statement from Kaufmann.

[@drc4563]

What an excellent, well presented and well structured video. Thank you for this.

[@s7k6s]

the classic was the mm m9

[@SimonBurnCreative]

A very useful and through video, thank you. I've decided to buy the M 🙂

[@MB-or8js]

Reason why video capability was removed in the M10 series was due to introduction of the SL camera series and avoiding in-house competition.

[@davidkieltyka9]

I suspect this is true, but are you stating known facts or offering a conjecture? If the former, sources please…

[@MB-or8js]

@@davidkieltyka9 discussed more in detail in the replies to Host Petscher's comment here.

[@MB-or8js]

@@davidkieltyka9 clear indication is that the first SL was introduced 2015, the M10 appeared 2017. That's when Leica divided both lines and made the SL the more video and EVF based series. There is no longer any technical reason for overheating with 4K Video in any camera especially if there is a metal housing.

[@mathphotographer]

The SL series and the M series are totally different, I would not see any good reason to remove video from the M series just because the SL series has it. But interesting answer to my question, thx.

[@MB-or8js]

@@mathphotographer Are they really so different? Yes, camera size, EVF, resolution, and different mount to name a few - but you can still use M lenses also on the SL. The SL is clearly Leica's video flagship together with the Q2. Imagine a M10 with 4K video, too: it would certainly lead to a drop in interest in the SL. The Q2 has its own market niche with fixed prime lens - so the Q2 is not competitive here with the SL. But a 4K video-capable M10 certainly would be. And Leica knows this very well. Leica tries everything not to repeat the mistake they did when releasing the film CL which was a huge success but cut severely into the M series profit at the time due to in house competition. This was the only reason why Leica stopped the CL in the end to keep focus on the more profitable and expensive M series. Same now with M and SL - first objective is to keep them separate enough with features to avoid overlap. To me this is very clear and obvious. There is zero technical reason not to have 4K video also in the M10 for example.

[@joeschlicht]

Faster shutter speed on the classic? I think you have that backwards.

[@benoitpiret9065]

nice but what about ISO?

[@GermanAutoNut]

Hey Math! Great video as always. Wondering what the M10Mono picture would look like against the PhaseOne iq3 or iQ4 Achromatic?

[@chirag4]

#MeToo .... MeThinks, since Fullframe 36x24mm (864 sq. mm) Sensor is 2.5x smaller area-wise than Phase One iQ3 100MP Achromatic Sensor - 54x40mm (2160 sq. mm) ... the result should be better by 2.5 times ... also, pixel pitch is same too, 40MP of Leica M10M is 2.5 times less resolution than 100MP

[@9Biloela99]

He has done a video in this

[@GermanAutoNut]

9Biloela99 the Achromatic is the Black & White sensor. There hasn’t been a comparison to the B&W sensor. But I did see the one about the color IQ4. (Unless I missed one?)

[@9Biloela99]

Pat B u are right... I trusted my memory... I went and looked after I made the comment... sorry I should have updated the comment

[@GermanAutoNut]

9Biloela99 No worries. Maybe Math makes another video with the Achromatic iQ4. 😉

[@dominiquecollard9068]

Hi Mat thanks for the for this old v new Mono, as a result I got my self am M246. Question Do you use a Poloriser or 3 Strop ND filter to better control the highlights? If so which one is best . Thanks Dominique .

[@mathphotographer]

Thanks Dominique. I use ND filters only occasionally but clearly it would help to control highlights. What I typically do: underexpose to get the highlights right and then recover the shadows in post. The dynamic range of these Leica rangefinders is so strong that you can underexpose (for the benfit of better highlights) by up to three full stops and then recover in post-processing information out of the shadows without messing up the highlights again by local editing.

[@dominiquecollard9068]

@@mathphotographer Hi Mat Thanks for the reply. Yes I have been under exposing especially here in Australia as the Sun is super bright.

[@Bryan-lu4du]

The older Monochrom still performs well, however when you over exposed both cameras it looks as if the weather changed enough where the M10M was another full stop over exposed over the 246 Monochrom’s overexposure... in this case it’s safe to say that the highlight recovery is probably even if the M10M has a slightly advantage. Personally I would probably opt for the M10M but the 246 Monochrom is still an amazing camera and amazing value.

[@mathphotographer]

Yes - the M Mono is still not retired, it is a great sensor and close to the newly developed M10 Mono sensor.

[@kuau714]

Great comparison, have you experienced the issue when using colored filters and the rangefinder not being able to focus accurately?

[@mathphotographer]

No, sorry. I hardly use colored filters on the Mono cams although very common for special looks. Thanks for the kind feedback in any case.

[@Paul-jb6rk]

Is there any chance you can do an identical comparison for the M10 vs M10r?

[@mathphotographer]

I only have an M10-P, I do not have an M10 at hand, sorry. But the comparison will be the same since the main change from M10 to M10-P is the shutter, not the sensor.

[@ebreevephoto]

cmos vs ccd as well - I thing the M246 actually produces better graduations in the blacks than the cmos sensor.

[@noeggi]

The older one seems more contrasty to me out of the camera. By the way which is you all time favorit camera? Cheers usem Aargau 😎 🙋🏻‍♂️

[@Paul-jb6rk]

Many reasons for this. Most likely increased dynamic range in M10M combined with a flatter native tone curve to protect the lowlights and highlights. Nothing which can’t be solved with something called a contrast slider.

[@foodiesaustin]

@@Paul-jb6rk I agree regarding a flatter tone curve or ? Does anyone have any info confirming software tweaks on M10M. TY

[@davidkieltyka9]

Paul Don’t forget the Raw processors. Capture One may be profiling the two cameras differently.

[@mathphotographer]

I got this question many times and I hesitate to answer :) Maybe one day I will make a video saying "If I had to chose one camera only, this is what it would be" ...

[@geoffreyinniss6036]

Just out of curiosity do you prefer Capture One to Lightroom, if so why?

[@mathphotographer]

Depends on what I wanna do in post-processing. Capture One is better for micro corrections, like erroneous pixels, etc. Capture One also has better lens corrections. Lightroom is good for night sky photography, to mention one example. I should say I use both, sometimes even in a workflow sequence.

[@TheVFXbyArt]

6:25 Leica likely removed that feature on the new m10 to avoid the likely heat build up from its thinner design.

[@no_name-o2n]

Can you make a comparison of the CFA (Color Filter Array) of the M10 and M10-R? The M10-R CFA is the same as in the S3, Leica claims to have made a big leap in color accuracy especially aimed at getting skin tones right by tweaking the red channel. Would be nice to see a direct comparison with a Color chart and some portrait for skin tones. Thanks.

[@mathphotographer]

Will consider, thx for suggesting.

[@mladenradman]

Great comparison. Of course the test was done at base ISO, I would imagine M10M would start showing advantage at much higher ISO settings. As always correct exposure is the key to highlight/shadow recovery. Assuming one is satisfied with ISO 10,000 upper limit M246 is still excellent camera today. The way I see it comparing both and in with respect to EVF, M246 was terrible but the the M10M is derivative of the original M10 and that EVF is poor by the standard of 2020. My M246 will carry on until Leica comes up with improved EVF, or I may convert Nikon Z7 to Mono at some point 😉

[@bernardlesperance742]

Leica reverted back to stills-only functionality for its M10 series (and M11 series) due to M camera user preference and demand for back-to-basics, traditional M model design and functionality. I agree with this philosophy.

[@alessandroconti7191]

Excellent video as usual

[@olegpetroff5412]

ISO 160 is not native for M10M. It's a pull setting, which was deliberately omitted from Typ 246 because of inferior DR. You should have use 360 on both cameras.

[@davidkieltyka9]

Bill Claff of the PhotonsToPhotos website tested the M10 Monochrom earlier this year, and found the base ISO is indeed 160. In my own use of the camera, since mid June, I’ve seen none of the tonal compression artifacts at ISO 160 that I can easily create on the standard M10 by exposing at ISO “100” (which is a pull setting).

[@olegpetroff5412]

@@davidkieltyka9 I've seen test with different result and native ISO of 400-500 for M10M. Internet tests are not very reliable anyway. It's almost impossible to get a sensor with native ISO of 160. Leica use standard sensor and remove color filters, increasing native ISO. There is no other way of doing monochrome. Very unlikely anybody will produce special batch of chips for a niche camera with low production numbers. I suppose ISO 160 was included in M10M after complaints from f/0.95 - f/1.4 lens users.

[@davidkieltyka9]

Oleg Petroff Claff has an excellent reputation for being both accurate and honest in his testing. But, regardless, my own experience using the M10 Monochrom supercedes any testing or claims. And that experience tells me ISO 160 delivers a real tonal scale and not a mathematically constructed one.

[@mathphotographer]

Maybe. I wanted to go on both cameras to their lowest available ISOs as I pointed out in the video. Thanks for your thoughts on this.

[@tompaste387]

DOH! I've forgotten how many things you are coming back too lol

[@rudigerhose1474]

Du hast dich gefragt warum Leica die Videofunktion weggelassen hat. Nun, es ist ganz einfach und wurde von Leica Verantwortlichen auch schon oft gesagt: mit integrierter Videofunktion war es nicht möglich die angestrebte Gehäusetiefe zu erreichen. So einfach ist das.

[@hamed_dxb]

Always great videos enjoying your Chanel, Leica removed video capability on M-10 so they can sell more Q2 I guess

[@mathphotographer]

Strange they removed video shooting from the M10 series, fully agree. It would be straightforward to just keep video features.

[@Wolfloid]

Good review. Just a language point: you keep saying ‘classical’ it should be ‘classic’. Classical music, but classic cars, cameras etc.

[@jijione75015]

thank you.

[@Wolfloid]

One of the most stupid things Leica have done in their design upgrade was to remove the two extra controls from the surround of the shutter switch. If people were complaining about switching on to C when they did not want to, then all leica had to do was make it stiffer to switch to C. Hardly difficult, and it would save diving into menus. I also notice that the implemented ISO dial only goes up to 12500, which for cameras like the M10M and the later M11M is obviously too limiting. Why not add 25000/25k? There is space, it just requires smaller, neater engraving.

[@Pizdobol1]

M Monochrom Typ 246 хорорш!

[@taegyunkim4905]

Thanks to this video, I fell in love with your M Mono camera. I want to have it.,.^__^*

[@mathphotographer]

It is a beauty, and the image quality is extra-terrestrial :)

[@dcrilley9624]

Touch Functionality of M10M. Doesn't the M10M touch functionality enable much more precise focusing off-centre than the M246 ? I find the LV peaking and magnification on the 246 to be infuriating for landscape and especially using the super little 21 mm 3.4 Elmar. Zone focusing on the lens is not always what we want to do when the calibre of the LV screen otherwise allows much more precise selection of focus points. I love my 246 but this along with the truly awful EVF 2 are the greatest drawbacks of it in landscape work

[@robertoposa1120]

I still prefer the M246

[@tompaste387]

It's still camera not a movie camera that's why

[@HarveyWallbanger-ho2cq]

Not classical, classic

[@GunstonGun]

you are rich