The Bummer for Tankless Water Heaters - Fixing a Scale Issue

[@samueljames9342]

I learned the hard way about calcium buildup. I was cleaning my screens weekly till I figured it out. Since I knew I had to change the plumbing in order to flush the system I came up with the idea to add a tank for collecting sediment on the outlet of the heater. I ended up using an old oxygen tank, a tall slender one. It's about 3 or 4 inch inside diameter and 22 inches tall. Water goes in the top where with copper tubing enters the tank about 18 inches down. Water exits near the top and all the solids settle to the bottom. I have a drain valve in the bottom and I check now and them for buildup. When I notice more than normal sediment I know it's time to flush it out. Works like a dream, I haven't had to clean my screens in 3 years now.

[@sango_wilko851]

This is really interesting, because usually it is the heat specifically which causes a drop in CO2 in the water which is what causes the calcium to precipitate and thus the scale to form in the plumbing. This is why when using hard water it's common to find scale in heated pipes and heaters but not nearly as much in cold water lines. I wouldn't expect such a setup to work very well at all to reduce scaling unless you where using a chemical treatment or the water was pre-heated before entering the first tank. You might remove floating sediment that was suspended in the water and can settle at the bottom, but it would have no mechanism to actually remove calcium carbonate that has been dissolved into the water.

[@taxicamel]

@@sango_wilko851 ...don't get hung-up on calcium. HARD WATER is full of minerals. If you want to isolate calcium, then you need to get an analysis done on the water first to know what is best to be done. .

[@bluenadas]

Just a few notes to Matt's excellent coverage on maintaining your tankless unit. 1. All manufactures of tankless units base your warranty on proper maintenance, which includes flushing the unit according to their guidance. I own a Rinnai, and they recommend yearly flushes. So I do them. But I also have a water softener and yearly flushing is overkill. Until my warranty expires, spending a yearly cost of $5 on vinegar, and 1 hour of my time seems worth it. 2. Flow aide is a good product, which is hydrogen chloride based (hydrochloric acid). Vinegar is acetic acid. But they are both acid and will do the same job. The difference is in price and time. $20 and 45 minutes for Flow-Aide, and $5 and 60 minutes for vinegar. (Price is for the flush product only, see below for additional kit required) 3. In addition to the vinegar (or Flow-Aide) a bucket (5 Gal or more), a pump, and hoses are required. If you want to do this yourself, it is cheaper to buy the items separately instead of getting a kit. You can get a submersible pump for $50, a bucket for $3, and a set of washing machine hoses for $15. Flow-Aide kit is $150, buying separately comes to less than $70. You decide.

[@buildshow]

Excellent addition and comments

[@ronstrong9560]

He obviously lives in warm climate, not where pipes could freeze during the winter. Cold climate areas would have then in a cellar, or a utility room. We have a tankless system, too, But water temperature varies during use.

[@bluenadas]

Matt is based out of Austin, Texas. So yes, not much of a freeze concern. I'm even further south than he is in Houston, Texas. We have freeze concerns where I am, but infrequently and only then for a day or two.

[@Nicholas-f5]

Vinegar also seems a lot less toxic if you have kids or pets.

[@menchelke]

I bought a rinnai and it stopped working after 3 months. Either my water is super lime, or I got a bum unit. It sucks because I payed to have a 220v plug added for it, and moved from a propane water heater to electric tankless, it died in 3 months, so I ended up installing an electric tank heater.

[@NA12495]

Living in Germany and England we had thankless, small little system provided us hot water and heated the house. A service man came out once a year to service, about $45. Was a great energy efficient system.

[@taxicamel]

There are many countries that are far more experienced in the use of tankless water heater systems than North America. These systems, point-of-use and central, have been used for four, five, six decades or more in other countries. Japan doesn't even employ the use of central how water tanks. Never has. The point is other countries are well aware of the use of tankless systems. .

[@mencken8]

We lived in two houses in the country for 41 years, used 3 tankless units in that time: a Thermar for 12 years, a Vaillant for 20, and a Bosch for 9. Well water in both places was LOADED with dissolved iron and calcium, and none of those tankless units ever gave a single problem with scale, or internal deposits of any kind.

[@taxicamel]

Good comment. The manufacturers you ended up buying were very likely well aware of HARD WATER conditions and designed their systems accordingly. To add to your comments, the "calcium carbonate" does NOT come from the tankless hot water heater as stated in various fashions at the beginning of this video. The "buildup" is from the hard water ....FULL STOP. This is MINERALS IN THE WATER of what is called "HARD WATER". This HARD WATER does NOT come into the house "heated". It comes in "COLD" like every other water supplied anywhere on the planet earth. TRANSLATION: The "minerals in hard water are in both COLD AND HOT WATER. This guy keeps on referencing the buildup as if this is from the water heater. NO IT IS NOT. The buildup seen in the aerator is NOT just from the water heater .....THIS BUILDUP IS ALSO FROM THE COLD WATER. Just run the cold water continuously through an aerator for a month or more and then look at the aerator. The point is very simple. The descriptor in this video states "...Matt investigates a house with low water pressure and reveals the DOWNSIDE to a tankless water heater". WRONG. It doesn't matter what kind of water heating is in place. THIS "LOW WATER PRESSURE" IS CAUSED BY HARD WATER .....NOTHING TO DO ANY HOT WATER HEATER ....FULL STOP. If the supply water is hard water, then simple maintenance flushing/cleaning is required. This issue is NOT a "DOWNSIDE" of tankless water heaters. .

[@marcostankless7526]

@@taxicamel but hot water has more scale than cold. You can get a TDS meter and see for yourself. As for why, maybe ask a chemist? But I agree it's counter-intuitive, you would expect less hardness in the hot water than cold, because typically hotter water keeps more solids in a dissolved state, just like salt water. Anyway- here in AZ a typical TDS meter will show 400ppm in cold water and about 750ppm in hot.

[@taxicamel]

@@marcostankless7526 ...99.99% incorrect Marco. It is the municipality who controls the condition of the water .....unless of course the water is artesian from your own property.....in which you're on your own to what needs to be done to the entire plumbing system. No TDS meters required ....and a complete waste of time in most cities across North America and likely many other countries. People know what kind of water they have. When water comes into the house, it doesn't matter whether it gets heated or not .....it's "chemistry", which is more a "solution", is about "solids" in the water. I have no idea where you think that the temperature of water influences the amount of solids in water ....but you go ahead and think whatever you like. .

[@marcostankless7526]

@@taxicamel even if it is city water, I you can see that there are more dissolved solids in the hot water than in the cold. Municipalities do not control water hardness. All they do is take non-potable water and filter it, then chlorinate it, then pump it to all the buildings. Doesn't matter if it is Az water or NJ water, there will always be more hardness in the hot side than the cold side. It's just a matter of is it 50ppm in the cold and 150ppm in the hot like NJ, or is it 400ppm in the cold and 750ppm in the hot like Az. Also I am certified installer for Rinnai and Navian, which are the two most popular tankless water heaters in USA right now. They are not made for "hard water" in fact the install manuals specify that water hardness should be below 150ppm or it could void the warranty. That much being said, the new tankless heaters have stainless steel pipes & stainless steel heat exchangers, this makes them much tougher than the old ones. They come with 15-year warranties, and should last 20-25 years if well-maintained.

[@clai123tube]

@@taxicamel With a tank water heater, the scale are accumulated inside the water tank and will not clog hot water pipe. With a tankless water heater, the scale has nowhere to go but into the hot water pipe causing clog issue. For this reason, when compared to tank water heaters, the tankless water heaters do have a "DOWNSIDE" as described in this video. Also, the scale build up DOES come hot water heater as the video suggested. Minerals dissolved in water does not clog water pipe. The minerals in water only causes problem when it can no longer be dissolved in water and become scale. Heating cold water containing minerals will cause the minerals in water to become scale.

[@BIGALTX]

Very timely video. I'm having that problem right now. Love my Rinnai, but my kitchen sprayer is stops up all the time. Plumbing Supply house near me said I needed to clean out tankless (it's been 2 years)... and also recommended a "Descaler". An electrolysis-type device. What are your thoughts on the electronic "descaler"? Thanks.

[@flybyairplane3528]

TexasPrepper2 I have not used them as of yet, but there are good ones out there

[@mountainbikerdave]

putting all those tiny screws next to a sink :o Matt you must love living on the edge. LoL

[@miragesmack007]

Yeah, I would have dropped the screws down the drain. First thing I noticed too.

[@Robyrob7771]

Said the same thing when he did that. I always drop a paper towel in the sink if I’m working over it.

[@alexhandyman9757]

Where is the result of flushing? Did the pressure come back to the showerhead? Thank you for the video.

[@HikariMagic20]

Might want to check on your volume before posting your vids when you add in music so that you can balance the volume better. That music was way louder than your voice talking during the time laps portions. Headphone user here, so I got hit with the sudden volume change. It might not be as much of a problem for speaker users. Other than that, thank you for your videos. I have learned quite a bit from your explanations, and I enjoy that you provide the upsides along with downsides so that we can judge what we want to deal with if we choose to use some of these things.

[@Smitty-op4ld]

They faxed the music down during the spoken parts.

[@rayford21]

Very informative video. And thanks for the super loud background music clips.

[@johnkubota3272]

Thanks so much! Removing the thermostatic cartridge, soaking it in vinegar and flushing the system worked wonders for our shower! Our pressure is back and better than ever.

[@Jimbodaddy74]

The scale also builds up in tank style heaters. I've pulled out ones that have had several pounds of calcuim in the tank. Do your routine maintenance.

[@Squat5000]

Due to some horrible contamination in our water, we opted to go with a softener with catalytic carbon, and a whole house RO system. It was not cheap in the beginning, but the benefits are unbelievable. Clean pure water, no chemicals or otherwise, no scale issues... And as for other benefits, the list goes on. We DO have basic (7.4) ph water here, so there is no concern of leaching of copper. We maintain

[@queequeg152]

ive designed a handfull of POE RO systems for small public water systems. its horribly expensive... im happy it worked out for you, but its just not a viable option for most folks. the pretreatment and post treatment requirements are very expensive as well... and if you are working on radioneuclide abatement( aqueous radium for example), you then have to pay quite a lot of money to test and dispose of RO membranes. btw, what are you doing for post treatment? RO water can be fairly corrosive. I usually spec an upflow calcite contactor with provisions for a CO2 sparging system later on after testing.

[@Squat5000]

You are right about the expense. I was lucky enough to catch some of the US Water Systems sales at ~25% off. It is basically all axeon exquipment and membranes. Pre treat is a softener with catalytic carbon to remove chlorine/ chloramine and eliminate the need for antiscalant. We got pretty lucky with the output. With as hard and basic as the feed water was, by the time we treat, It is basically perfectly PH balanced, with 2-5ppm TDS from softened water in stead of straight to the RO system. Didn't need a calcite for pre or post. No need for degassing in my case. I have a atmospheric permeate tank, fill from bottom with booster pump driving the house. (double check valve on permeate line). Water passes through UV then 1 micron filter before making its way back into the main line. Honestly, total system cost with ~1500 GPD spec was $4500 for RO and pump/ tank + $1250 for softener. The membranes have lasted 2 years so far with less than 1ppm increase in TDS post treatment. Water is currently 25 gpg hardness + a long list of other dissolved solids, known carcinogenic compounds, and pesticides, so definitely took a big system to get it clean. POU systems have their benefits especially in terms of cost, but when you are inhaling aerosolized rocket fuel in the shower (APCP and PBAN from old test sites right in the middle of the feed river), it is kind of a moot point to even have. I am so far looking at ~15 year system life based on current wear. I think $500/ year with all costs included is worth it. Not everyone looks at long term cost though... Instant gratification is the mentality of most people these days. I love how far off our published water quality tests are. They measure the water used to feed the reservoir, but not post storage. Last year, it was off by almost double when we paid to get it tested.

[@flybyairplane3528]

John Doe I installed a small RO system years ago, but when I move to FLA, I’ll put in a whole house model,, Eg; when people come over, they can’t get over the CLEAR ICE CUBES !! No minerals..

[@flybyairplane3528]

John Doe unfortunately he was comparing DI water which IS CORROSIVE, and NOT FOR DRINKING, at a Pharmaceutical co in NJ where I worked for a few years,,the ONLY USE FOR DI water was for humidifiers in certain refrigerated cabinets, was ONLY RUN IN SS , no copper,.but they made USP water, and some other specialty uses, but you can’t beat an RO SYSTEM

[@RollinShultz]

I began using tankless water heaters and on demand boilers and this is a common problem. In my last replacement, I opted for an electric hybrid water tank which utilizes a heat pump to heat the water without any direct contact with water flow elements. Instead of the electric elements boiling the water at the point of contact with the elements the water is heated in coils that wrap around the tank and transger the heat through the metal by conduction. What I didn't realize or expect is that has the effect of installing a water softener. Hard water deposits are disappearing from faucets and fixtures and no more clogging. As an engineer I believe on demand tankless heaters could also use such a design and heat static coils that would in turn heat the flow coils similar to how a solar water works.

[@elenapriddy693]

THANKS for the info, I just spent 600 for replacing the copper and a couple of other things, came from scale built up,my question is where do I purchase the flow aid THANKS

[@carlstewart365]

Tank water heaters must also be maintained, so it's no different from tankless in that respect. I've seen tanks so filled with scale and calcium buildup that it was clogging the drain spout at the bottom. I'm in central Florida and put in a natural-gas tankless water heater over a year ago, and we're very happy with it.

[@taxicamel]

CORRECT!!!! This is one of the INCORRECT INFERENCE this guy is making ....that the low pressure is a "downside" of tankless water heaters ....which is completely INCORRECT .....along with other inferences he makes that give the completely WRONG IMPRESSION to people who are not familiar with plumbing. That's what many KZbinRS do. .

[@Hayden-sp1ol]

My BOSCH has been a CHAMPION.....15 years never a problem. It heats the sinks ,showers, dishwasher, washer. AMazing!! Way to go for SURE!!!

[@robertkessler4435]

Thanks for this. My friend has some VRBO properties in the mountains. He has sediment filters in place but I never knew where the cal/carb was coming from. Currently repairing an Eemax with three coils. Found a wire coming from the relay controlling the 220v burned through on the primary coil. I think the triac/thyristor was the problem. Customer support agreed. Hopefully replacing the triac will do the job.

[@taxicamel]

Sediment filters are very perhaps needed in that area. You need to know WHERE your water is coming from before being concerned or wondering about "MINERALS". In general terms, being in the mountains, very possibly, or more likely, your water is soft water with absolutely minimal concern with "minerals". You should find out from the municipality ....unless of course your water is artesian. Either way, find out the condition of the water before potentially wasting time and money. .

[@deborahpowell7889]

Have had unit flushed..but seems every weekend we must clean all faucets!!crazy any suggestings

[@HeyWiseGuy]

In one of our old homes, I successfully used high Gauss magnets on the water main before the water heater and a pair of magnets after. I had a plumber create a soft water loop and installed a whole house water filter with clear housing around the filter media, placing it before the water heater. It was amazing to see how the magnets began breaking up the calcium carbonate (it looked like white coral). After the first couple of hours, the water was much clearer and stayed that way as long as I changed the filter every couple of months. Though none of the minerals were removed, our scale problem at the point of use all but disappeared. I'd do this arrangement again.

[@joea1433]

Your videos are informative and produced well. Especially now when many people are entering the building trades and need training. Also being energy efficient is extremely important but it involves being detailed oriented. Best regards.

[@taxicamel]

Be very careful of what you see and hear. This one video is NOT correct in many ways. You might garner SOME information from "these videos" ....but do NOT assume everything is correct. Remember ....this is KZbin. It is completely open to ANYONE who wants to make a video ....and perhaps more importantly ....wants to try to make money. For instance, the inference in the titling and descriptor is that the low pressure is due to the "tankless water heater", which is in fact incorrect. The low pressure is due to the results of HARD WATER over time. Absolutely NOTHING to do with any kind of water heater. So be careful about what you think your watching .....particularly if your knowledge base is not very high on what your watching. .

[@fitter70]

I would install a strainer immediately after the water heater. This way you catch all the scale before it gets to your plumbing fixtures.

[@Rockwell108]

Wouldn’t it still slowly catch in the other screens as well?

[@johnscloud]

Great idea! You can add a water filter that uses a cartridge. I installed one before the water enters the tankless water heater to eliminate any sediment from entering the system.

[@Rockwell108]

johnscloud oh yeah! A soft water system will filter it right out!

[@johnscloud]

@@Rockwell108 Well I would Not prefer a soft water system over a simple water cartridge filter system since this type of system will raise your salt levels (excess salt intake). I have had a soft water system decades ago. Has the soft water system stopped using salt?

[@johnscloud]

@@zeroumashi2947 Thank You for the link! This looks like abetter idea in place of salt. I found a unit at Home Depot for $170.00, It lasts up to 2 years before the cartridge needs to be replaced. Cartridge replacement approximately $100.00. That makes rplacement costs at about $50.00 a year. Again thanks for the link!

[@TheItsmegp46]

I needed to change out the old 40 gallon water heater in the house we recently moved into. Doing some shopping, I looked into tankless (natural gas fired). I was quoted an average of $3,200 from 3 different plumbers. With seven people in my household, I needed a large unit to accommodate our needs. Then I found a 75 gallon gas fired tank heater with a 75,000 BTU recovery rate for $695. Add another $300 for removal, hauling away and installation of the new one. It was a no brainer I went for the tank water heater. The endless hot water matra you hear is sometimes just a crock. If you exceed the tankless capacity of heating the water by running too many items at once, you will run out of hot water, all you'll get is cool water. During winter, its even worse. The incoming water temp in winter comes in at about 38-40 degrees, reducing its capacity even further.

[@buildshow]

Good point. I do like a good high performance tank

[@schottiey]

For next time to save $300, you can remove the old tank yourself, it's really easy, then take it to a scrap yard and they pay you to take it.

[@TheItsmegp46]

I bought it from Sears. I understand it is manufactured by O.E.Smith. Of course this was nine years ago, I'm sure the price has gone up.

[@TheItsmegp46]

schottley Thanks for the advice. The $300 was for installation of the new one as well. But, I'm no good at this sort of thing.

[@no-yl3cj]

i have a deep COLD water well. i have wondered how efficient a lp tankless would actually be trying to get that up to temp

[@marcostankless7526]

when servicing the shower: that shower had hot & cold shut-offs, you could have shut it with a regular screwdriver you didn't need to shut the whole house. However, before you pull the valve, you could turn on the shower for a second to release the pressure. Also would be nice if you showed us how your efforts fixed the shower in the end.

[@davetobara5591]

If you install a recirculation pump with your tankless system then the tankless would be running and using gas or electricity constantly correct? Unless you have a timer on the pump. Its been a few years since I've done an install and want to be sure im giving my clients correct info. Thank you in advance for your input.

[@flybyairplane3528]

Dave Tobara no the ‘pump’ they suggest is a tiny flow as compared with the others , to prevent that from happening.

[@1806StoneHouse]

This is good information. We installed a new Utica Boiler and made sure we had a good softer first.. it’s so very important. I have a video on the boiler if anyone is interested.

[@IAmAFixer]

Great tutorial, thanks for sharing! I was literally just doing this on my system yesterday when this video showed up in my feed

[@Mrcaffinebean]

Haha Matt Risinger, master builder, part time plumber for friends.

[@buildshow]

I must admit I’m in a stage of fascination with plumbing right now. Have another publishing tomorrow

[@Julia-qc8pi]

Wow would have Bern nice to see how you hooked up a loop to wash out the system

[@sniggitty]

I've been backflushing vinegar through my boiler water coil for years. I mix 2 quarts vinegar, some Iron Out, and resclean, and fill a bucket, connect up a submersible pump, connect 2 hoses to inlet and outlet spigots, close off the valves which bring water to house, and open valves to flush the solution through the lime encrusted coil within the boiler. Water turns grey within minutes and then black. Installed Water Softener in 2014 and have not had to do this until now (June 2020) as reduced flow is a trickle. 45 min later, and flow is restored. Will do it 2x over next week and clean all the scale out. Did not notice any gunk in screens on faucets. the coil guy want $150 each time to do this, all it costs me in $4 vinegar, and $2 of iron out. Submersible pump is 8 yrs old, bought at closeout at sears. When done flushing, I rinse the pump with clean water since vinegar will corrode pumps diaphragm.

[@ciprianbenec4091]

Filters, especially magnetic ones, worked for me. Magnetic filters installed correctly will make that scale like a fine non sticky dust that flows with the water.

[@readysetsleep]

Matt get yourself a set of WERA stainless steel hex for your plumbing kit. So much modern plumbing has hex fittings now.

[@monroejosh]

Thanks for the great video. I would have never thought about scale building up on a thermostatic shower valve. I have a Rheem heat pump water heater and geothermal with a desuperheater and hot water pre-heat tank. I am on well water. Other than my water softener and two-stage 1 micron filtration, is there anything else that I can be doing to protect that equipment?

[@nicenonya3]

My grandfather's water heater is still working,they installed a softener to supply the tank probably before I was born,so I'm guessing 60 years and still going strong.

[@charlesrichardson8635]

I think I have watched everyone of his videos! Keep them coming!

[@flinch622]

That's a pain. If I ever install one of these, I'm putting a Y type strainer [fine mesh screen] on the water heater outlet to protect the o-rings on my fixtures down the line from big scale. That way I can make my mess outside, and access is easy. Come to think of it... add a ball valve for a quick dump of strainer contents as disasters tend to come with company, and they can get back to their shower in seconds instead of an hours worth of maintenance. Screen still has to be popped out every year for inspection, but that's ok - beats losing screws down the drain..

[@flybyairplane3528]

Flinch I did that on outlet of my water softener, , FIRST never use those pleated paper water filters, I had one come apart plugging each faucet, never again, then the resin bed filter came apart, did same thing, changed softener, but a brass y type filter was installed , got that a plumbing supply, LOEWS, HD , don’t carry these things.

[@flinch622]

@@flybyairplane3528 I'd be afraid to use paper too: it might work, but would that mean changing it out every month without exception? I've never tried it. For most water systems, spun polyester cartridges seem to work fine, but the high temp coming off a water heater might be an issue that caused your premature delamination? Seems to me 99% of water filters out there are not designed for hot water service, which makes a [bronze or CPVC body] strainer the most reliable/least maintenance even if it lets super small particles through - a 200 mesh will probably let anything smaller then 75 microns through and a 300 gets 50 microns for example. If the building was not protected by a filter on it's supply, I sure would put a polyester type before the heater if it comes unequipped. When city water has problems, their repairs can take a long time or are just a band aid on a stab wound [like grouting the inside of cracked mains pulling in dirt with a venturi effect at certain joints].

[@nerys71]

Is there an INLINE solution? ie something you can plug in "inline" kind of like those washing things for your water hose that have a little tank for soap. something we can put in before the water heater fill with vinegar or solution and let it suck it up so it flushes the system that way? something I can run every 6 months to keep the system cleaned up (we have very hard water up here in NM)

[@rhess10]

So with some maintenance they won't do this. And what if I add a water softener? Then with the yearly maintenance, do you think there would ever be a problem?

[@paulsmith9574]

I did a simple experiment with the scale that was in the faucet screen in my home. I put a few chunks in a ceramic cup and poured white vinegar in it too. Nothing happened. I did the same test with CLR, and the particles fizzled. That tells be that vinegar doesn't do anything to the scale. Unless it needs to be some more potent vinegar. You should have showed the scale collection in your bucket from flushing the system. I would think that flushing with CLR would be more effective. Also, if no $700 softener is added to the system, you will be back in a couple months. I am installing a "Hot" sediment filter on the output side of the heater, to try and catch the scale before it gets to the screens. If that doesn't help, then it moves to adding a softener.

[@insanmonster]

This might be a lot more work, but if they wanted to be certain that all of that scale was removed, could you back flush the entire system with that descaler and let it sit for a day or so and then return water to the house? Like opening a valve slightly to the water heater and using some sort of a pump to pump the descaler into one of the faucets or shower until the system is full and then shutting the valve at the water heater and letting it sit? Or maybe there is a sink/faucet/hose bib at a low point in the house, shut off the water to the house, open every faucet and pump into the low point. Then go around the house and shutting down each faucet?........I could be way off base here, but its a thought.

[@ron4274]

Interesting concept! I've pumped vinegar into all my plumbing lines & fixtures, but worked from the basement "up" (not all fixtures had an easily accessible connection point). Plus, working from the basement meant I didn't need to move the equipment (i.e., pail of vinegar, pump, lines) once hooked up. Otherwise, using gravity would have been helpful! Since I had to pump the vinegar up 3 floors, I needed a pump that could produce enough head. I also needed a second person to open one side of each fixture at a time while I started/stopped the pump and opened/closed the corresponding service valve (hot/cold). We communicated by phone. I coloured the vinegar with food colouring so it was obvious when each line was full (since the smell wasn't obvious enough). It took some coordination to close the fixture valve, stop the pump, and close the service valve (so the vinegar didn't drain out) once each line was full (there's that gravity thing...lol). Then I let it sit for ~6 hours and that was enough to fully clear all blockages. I used almost 4 gallons of vinegar to completely fill ALL pipes (hot & cold). I have now installed a softener w/pre-filter so hopefully I won't have to flush the lines again, though I will still flush the tankless annually. We never had any issues when we had a traditional hot water tank, so that tells me that all we really needed was someplace for the minerals/sand/etc to drop out...though the soft water is nice. (Our hardness is 17 gpg.)

[@arkypaularky]

I would like to have seen that the problem was actually solved.

[@buildshow]

Shoot! That would have made a good ending. Next time

[@dangda-ww7de]

how can u be poor and rich at the same time?

[@sinephase]

@@dangda-ww7de it's called "rich in debt"

[@dangda-ww7de]

no, its poor person. @@sinephase

[@sinephase]

@@dangda-ww7de It means they seem rich but they have so much debt that all the money they make is going to pay off their debts, which makes them "poor"

[@oBseSsIoNPC]

So did you actually fix the low flow on the shower? Or was it a bad thermostat?! Would love to see results after the "fix", next time please. Thanks!

[@thomasbroking7943]

Do you remember the dip tubes maybe 20 years or so back?? Looks similar. . You need to have a softner & filter especially for those units. If water is doing that, its also not very friendly to your washing machine and dishwasher. Benefits of soft water are huge besides needing it

[@CyberAnvil]

and the salt water flush goes where?

[@thomasbroking7943]

@@CyberAnvil usually find a stand pipe from the washing machine, laundry tub, sump pump, outside, or a leader drain.. Always find a place. It's definitely worth looking into. I did a few seminars, soft water extends the life of appliances and so much else.

[@CyberAnvil]

@@thomasbroking7943 yes, i've installed and used a water softener. soft water is nice, just thinking of the hundreds of pounds of salt dumped into our sewer systems. personally, i lived in the country so i had no choice but to route the salt water down one of the downspout corrugated pipes leading to who knows where.

[@thomasbroking7943]

@@CyberAnvil hundreds of pounds?? They make them that use potassium also if the salt is an issue..where i live they have shown videos of the city plowing into the sewers, so salt from the house isn't even a thought

[@thomasbroking7943]

@@CyberAnvil it's a no brainer after you are blowing through water heaters, dish washers, washing machines, and especially these wall hung boilers..

[@brianpimental2948]

Matt would you recommend a tankless for a three bath house on well water with a softener in stalled

[@MrBrianDuga]

I wonder if a sediment filter after the meter would make a difference and/or whole house filtration system.

[@KurtisWhittington]

A sediment filter (provided it was installed in a way that could be easily serviced/cleaned) might help, but it won't solve this problem as the problem is that the minerals are dissolved in the water. They attach themselves to the metals and imperfections and then crystallize forming that grit and scale. This tends to happen at points of big temperature difference (like the heating coils) and on imperfect surfaces where it can "take root" so to speak. In the case in the video, enough built up on the heating coils and in the "tankless" tank that parts of it broke off and traveled downstream to the shower and the faucets. A sediment filter just after the tank would help fix that issue to an extent and would make for an easy first step to troubleshooting. If putting a sediment filter on the cold line, not going to help so much except catching stuff that city or your well pump system did not catch. A whole house filtration wouldn't really help unless it can de-mineralize your water (which is sort of what a water softener system does), which the video maker comments on a bit.

[@MrBrianDuga]

Kurtis Whittington nice comment thanks!

[@ginosmovies]

@@MrBrianDuga: Agreed.

[@MsLaurN]

@@KurtisWhittington Good explanation, I appreciate your input.

[@bobwarren3898]

Out here in well water country, the real problem is the water heater's inability to heat the water sufficiently to overcome the 40 degree temperature of the water when it comes out of the ground. Make sure you know what sort of temperature rise your heater is capable of above your ambient 'out of the pipe' temperature. The local hardware store sole several of the electric tankless models and every one was brought back because customers could only get about 88 degree water out of them because of the low ground water temperature.

[@pd1jdw630]

Not sure how this works with you in the US, but here in Holland our boilerless water heater ( which also heats the house ) gets an annual inspection. Almost the complete unit gets pulled apart and cleaned up.

[@flybyairplane3528]

J.D. Willemsen Yes they make units here in USA,,which does the same thing domestic HW, or ‘and household comfort .

[@cooper9287]

Why didn't you show us the final step and turn them on after you flushed everything? I feel like you used me like my ex wife did.

[@johnconnor6157]

Because he didn't fix the problem, thats why

[@johnscloud]

@Tom Varrette the tankless water hearer is where the calcium deposits starts to form The calcium eventually breaks away and flows to the filter sreens throughout the house slowing down and or stopping the water flow. I just cleaned my sreens the other day. I really need to clean my tankless water heater. I love our tankless water heater but it is an issue we have to deal with....

[@johnscloud]

@Tom Varrette thanks for your input. I am on well water. In the past before my tankless I would also get sand occasionally clogging my faucet strainers. I have since installed a water filter that holds back sediment and I no longer have that paticular issue. What I do have is calcium build up / breakaway since I stalled my tankless. Some of my family tend to take long HOT showers and that exsaperates the problem. I was reading another comment here about adding a strainer after the tankless. So I think I just might add a water filter (cartridge) after the tankless and see if that will help...

[@michallodziana2028]

Hello, professional plumber here (from Jersey) What he said in this video is certainly not "BS". What you're suggesting only treats the symptom - not the problem. Clean just the screens and problem will repeat with weeks/months (plus you might be left without hotwater due to excess scaling in the heat exchanger) You're welcome

[@gaguy2]

A good plumber would have let the water pressure off at the sink, before taking that valve off the shower. I'm still not sure what he is selling, his work, or the cleaning and a regular basic. I read where someone recommend flush them once a year, I guess a regular service call , a plumber once a year, Time so many costumers, is a lot of money per year. I sure would get another opinion before listening to him for advice. Notice he didn't show what was in the bucket when he finished either, just dumped it out.

[@Ebbrush3]

put a washcloth over the drains as not to loose any screws or components

[@prjndigo]

magnetic parts bowl is always a win

[@samueljames9342]

I had to build a custom tank to install right after my boiler to trap the sediment, its so bad here (in Florida) even after a flush the scale was back in 30 days. Once a month i flush the trap and im good.

[@davetobara5591]

If u installed a softener wouldn't that help?

[@samueljames9342]

@@davetobara5591 from what i hear, yes. However being retired and on a fixed income, a water softener is a luxury. Although after watching this i have plans to i stall ports that will alow me to flush the heater on a regular basis. I can do that myself and should have al the materials on hand.

[@edkoga7321]

You used raw plier jaws on chrome finish but used tape insulated jaws on brass hidden valve nut....scratches head?

[@thetuesdaywhistler]

No he didn't.

[@flybyairplane3528]

ed koga what he did is old as the hills

[@Davidatlw]

I've got a question. Last time I was going to build a house the builder talked me out of tankless hot water. Said it was trouble. You've shown with proper maintenance things can be alright. I don't want to install a water softener but am thinking about a whole house series of filters. Will this accomplish the same thing....removing the contamination from hard water?

[@flybyairplane3528]

David Martin basic filtered can NOT remove minerals , sorry.

[@rktest]

@@flybyairplane3528 THANK YOU - so many posts imply you can filter dissolved minerals - NO. Particles are not the problem, it's dissolved calcium etc that then precipitates upon heating.

[@turboflush]

Do the smaller tankless (reheem 13 or undersink unit) require the service valves? Smaller units are normally 1/2" inlet outlet; do they make 1/2" service valves? I have only seen the 3/4.

[@KrazyKajun602]

I did my descaling yesterday, and once I finished my unit starting leaking from the coils. I now have to replaced the unit. I am guessing the descaling exposed the holes. I descale my unit once a year.

[@seannorman9169]

Good information to know and I stick with the old fashion water heater because I am skeptical when it comes to new technology on anything...... I just changed mine 2 weeks ago.. no tankless water heater for this guy.

[@flybyairplane3528]

Sean Norman Havine being born in a British colony,,as far back as 1950 we had a British brand “ASCOT” , point of use propane units, or sized for the entire home., came to the USA, in 1959,,then in a few years saw a similar unit ‘PALOMA ‘ where they were being used for baseboard heating, they were bought by RHEEM., but that technology was quite old.

[@4philipp]

If water gets shut off at least you have your tank full.

[@EHCBunny4real]

I have an electric Ecosmart tankless and I have hard water. I have a whole house water filter as well as using a scale inhibitor. I flush my unit twice per year with cleaning vinegar.

[@LaughOutLouie88]

Great video thanks for sharing! I will make sure to do this when flushing my tankless next year.

[@sherrijohnson2685]

This video was very informative and put together well. I really appreciated the detail you went through and talked about each step as you were going through it. Seeing up close what you were working on and describing what you were doing and explaining things, was so helpful! The background music, however, is absolutely awful! It was SUPER LOUD and unnecessary. Why do so many how to videos put stupid music in the video? It’s not needed and detracts from the information you are giving. Other than that, I really liked it.

[@ToxicityAssured]

What kind of knife do you carry? I noticed the clip in this video. Kershaw, ZT, Spyderco, Benchmade and Reeve's are my favorites.

[@troycarothers8254]

4:46 Are those shut-off stops built into the shower valve? Could you have cycled those open and close instead of the whole house water shut-off valve and achieved the same results?

[@YukiNeko-Neko]

Matt Risinger would a spin down trap added after the tankless help to catch sediment that comes out of a tankless water heater?? Then it could be cleaned at the same time when you do maintenance on the heater.

[@CoolDude-vc2fl]

Can you do a video of installing water softener system?

[@brucea3103]

Matt, love the channel. Almost think you are the only building advice on all of KZbin. Problem is I have PolyWall tastes on a tarpaper budget. I like the Zip System panels, but also like the simplicity of the Tyvek window installation. Roxul exterior cladding, or radiant foam board? I know each house is different as is the location it is in, but could you do a "Good, Better, Best Bang For The Buck" video? Your channel is nearly 10 years old (yikes!) and while fine craftsmanship never goes out of style, the science of achieving that changes.

[@buildshow]

Hilarious. Yes. Great idea. I’ll work on that for 2018.

[@ee8583]

Bruce A g

[@williambacker6581]

would a inline sacle filter help, like the ones we used in the navy for seawater cooling?

[@MrTimk225]

Would a water conditioner help in this situation like a water softener would?

[@batty9539]

can't believe you have your tools on the bare counter top... you know how many people I've let go for that......and the damn tool box is metal that is hilarious nice friend you are lmao

[@drdin3442]

I live in town in aus where the water is considered to be soft (according to tests done anally). Do I still need to flush it yearly?

[@drdin3442]

I do not have a water softener.

[@buddysmith6861]

I would like to add a few things here, 1 a whole house filter and 2 they have a hot water filter you can add. After the water heater it would help reduce problems drastically.

[@theberrybest]

Sounds like a great idea, but a whole house filter is useless against hard water. Water softener, or heater treater filter are the only two things that will protect your tankless. Also when flushing a tankless, there are as many as two internal screens located within the tankless water heater that must be cleared prior to, and after, cleaning.

[@danielalamo2075]

We have a tankless. We had a very good water softener and now we don't. We have had trouble since day one. No difference either way with or without a softener. Our water is very hard and salty. I'm looking into installing a hot water heater.

[@davetobara5591]

R there benefits in using salt in your softener instead of potassium? Other price difference?

[@varanidguy]

I have a soft water system and whole house filtration system that keeps sediment, chlorine, VOC's, etc out of the tap water, and even then my routine is to maintain the tankless heater once a year. Is that strictly speaking necessary? Probably not. But what's an hour of my time once a year to make sure there's no problems with it?

[@russellkaplan3484]

I am admittedly a bit OCD, but when I descale my Rinnai I use about 6 gallons of vinegar (about $15 worth at the wholesale club) and sit a 5 gallon bucket in the shower to drop the pump into. I pull the shower head off and run a 3/4" clear vinyl hose from the shower arm down to the bucket, and run a drinking water grade hose from the pump back to the tankless. This way I am de-scaling the entire hot water loop from the tankless to the shower including the valve but without having to disassemble. I let it run for about an hour like that. I also go to each tap in the house and crack open the hot until I can smell (or taste) the vinegar coming through to that point. I do this at the start of the process and let the vinegar sit in the line for the whole hour that I am running the pump. When I'm done, I flush the lines out well with fresh water before turning the tankless back on.

[@doublebulbing]

WOW what is your house plumbed with

[@russellkaplan3484]

A little bit of everything ... copper, PVC and Pex ... but I am flushing the hot water lines to get the scale out of the valves and fixtures where it collects as Matt mentions in his video ... not worried about any scale in the pipes themselves.

[@spacemanrick2014]

That's definitely a cool thing to do as a diy homeowner. Running the solution through a thermostatic/ or even a balanced showervalve will also descale the temperature balance piston, which seize up from very thin scale build-up. That's too involved for a paid serviceman to do, as they usually have a set price for the service, and need to get to the next job. One issue I see with that is thermostic valves have little check valves on the inlets, if the cold one is damaged, you will lose your solution to the cold side. Balanced only valves will definitely loose solution through the cold side.

[@Theredeemedchild2]

I was ecstatic to hear you say low flow and not pressure.

[@sbourdondvm]

perhaps I an dense. why is there no filter on the outlet side of the water heater? I would not stop the scaling or the low flow but it would prevent the scale from contaminating the entire system after the heater.

[@flybyairplane3528]

Stanley Bourdon I say a y type brass fine filter with a ball valve on the y so you can FLUSH OUT THAT CRAP, if you can container it before it gets through the water circuit.

[@wickedxe]

Here in Australia I have had a bosch 21E for 10 years and never done anything to it, I guess our water is very soft

[@blahblahblahblah2837]

I can tell you it's definitely not, but it also varies state to state, city to city and town to town so you might just be in a lucky area. ...or your tank is going to start crapping out in the next few years.

[@wickedxe]

@@blahblahblahblah2837 Okay, In victoria our water is good

[@reginabinion11]

Have the same water heater! the tanks are plastic believe it or not in the Bosch. Over five years never a problem.

[@wickedxe]

@@reginabinion11 all copper in my unit

[@geoffflato9918]

As someone who lives in a place that it hits -50 in the winter and our water lines have to be buried 8-10 feet underground, its so weird to see a water heater on the OUTSIDE of a building

[@richwood2741]

Great information. Will help when deciding whether to go tankless.

[@ukpm]

Copper boiler or stainless steel flat-plate heat exchanger?

[@4philipp]

Will you have the same buildup in Pex lines as in copper piping?

[@4philipp]

M Detlef ok, then is that build up in the tank the reason for their low life expectancy? It seems wasteful to replace tanks every 6-10 years. There has got to me a better solution.

[@stevewebb7318]

? Matt when we turn off the water supply at the tankless you would think all hot water taps would be off but no cold water come out whats up with that ?

[@seamuswarren]

The element seems to have lost power a few weeks back. As the unit was never descaled in its ten to fifteen year life so far, I am three hours into flushing out with a descaling fluid from the hardware store. The pump is getting hot and heating up the fluid. The fluid seems to be turning a lime green. I'm told the flushing only takes an hour or so, but I am giving it really thorough flushing in the hope this will help the element do its job. If still not heating I will either replace the element or the entire unit.

[@z4u68]

does a elec tank water heater do the same thing with the build up

[@flybyairplane3528]

Max Stevens are you kidding ? Yes.

[@brianmaier7529]

Why is the tankless system on the outside? Is this something common in the south?

[@samsonn25]

How did the water come out of the shower since you closed the inlet valve?

[@TrojanHorse1959]

Why not put a filter/screen after the hot water heater that you could observe/check and clean periodically?

[@readmore3634]

1. Half of the house water shut off valves are either broken or do not close all the way. 2. Flushing a tankless with vinegar may cause it to leak. If it works leave it alone. 3. Taking apart a shower assembly and removing the cartridge is risky, even to the most experienced plumber. There's 100's of different models that Home Depot doesn't carry. 4. Tankless do not dispense hot water if the power is out. 5. I've taken apart Tankless's and found the heat exchangers clogged with soot, destroying it's so-called efficiency. 6. Tankless's do not save you money, they make water hot on demand. 7. I've been an honest Master Plumber for about 35 years. I install these, but don't call me to work on one. I'd rather have you pissed at someone else..... not me. These are some of the reasons I have a regular old fashioned water heater and a water softener. They work just fine, even if the powers off... and easy to work on.

[@hardkore360]

laid out all the facts! I knew I chose wisely to keep it simple with my new water heater

[@readmore3634]

@@hardkore360 They first became popular in Europe, where many of the very old buildings/houses had no place to put a large tank water heater...as there was no such thing as water heaters way back. I could go on and on....tankless have their place...but the drawbacks are something to consider. Thanks for the reply.

[@smithwrx5910]

A master at his trade and humble

[@brent1041]

That water heater on the outside of the house just looks so wrong to me. But I live in Minnesota so yeah.

[@q-_-p.d-_-b]

Some have automatic heaters. No pipes bursting in winter.

[@51-FS]

Klaa2 we have water pips out side of the homes in Oklahoma

[@flybyairplane3528]

Klaa2 you need to go to London UK,,homes there are few centuries old, so ALL PIPESate EXTERNAL,,including sewer pipes, they need to use a small water pump to boost the intake to the house.

[@charlesrichardson8635]

When I moved to NC I saw several houses with exposed plumbing in garages. I has a water heater and softener in mine. My neighbors thought I was crazy to put an insulated box around them and put a heater set at 40F. Until that winter when we beat our record of hours, and I do mean hours, below freezing. The record before was 26 hours... we set it at 87 hours back during that big freeze in 1993. Everyone was coming to our house for showers for a week! To be fair, the new #2 record has never been set, so people just say I jinxed it!

[@zack9912000]

To me that is nuts, one random cold snap even in warmer climate and your pipes will freeze

[@Isthisreallol]

I know this is an older video but would Spindown mesh filters installed at the outlet of your on demand heater prevent scale from reaching water fixtures? Or will scale also accumulate inside your plumbing and break loose at later times resulting in the same scaling issue?

[@Smitty-op4ld]

Old timer: "Get your tool box off his counter. And eee no screws by the sink... Living life on the edge... Literally."

[@canucanoe2861]

This guy is clueless. I've seen him be wrong or give incomplete info many times.

[@Cobe1976]

Robert Smith use a towel for countertops!!

[@mbishton1]

Also the shower head is likely still somewhat clogged. You better flush the riser & clean the head.

[@michaelsdragons]

Regular hot water heaters do the same thing, you have to descale them also. That is what kills them- scale

[@rbwbehrmann]

If I’m having this problem at my work place in a restaurant, what can I do to fix this ? Can I do this process myself or do I have to hire someone else

[@Pch100]

In Lincolnshire we have really bad lime scale have to flush every 3 months . If it gets real bad they Pump hydrochloric acid round for half an hour

[@vuongta]

Hi, I have the chronomite instant flow 203, the water in is trong but out is very weak, do you have any idea. It’s brand new

[@chaddles623]

Good tip, here is tip for you, try Knipex pliers wrench.

[@davetobara5591]

Im unfamiliar with that brand of wrench. Are they available in Arizona and what are the benefits?

[@flybyairplane3528]

Roof Repair Techs knipex makes some great tools

[@flybyairplane3528]

Dave Tobara I bought mine years ago in an HVAC/R supply, but they might sell that to you as they do not sell to the public.as routine, but a tool may fly.

[@kateajurors8640]

There was an old water heater in this house when we moved in 15 years ago. The water heater has been kicking and running fine we have well water though that doesn't mean our water isn't hard we tend to have iron buildup. We have to scrub your toilet pretty often or else it starts to look like there's this reddish off color that has stuck all to the toilet bowl. I've wanted to update the water heater to a tankless one but I'm afraid of touching it LOL it's probably just barely holding on and who knows was all these newer water heaters being built so cheaply out of steel that will Rust or just don't want to risk it right now :-) plus God only knows how old is water heater is. We haven't done any maintenance on it whatsoever we haven't drained it and flushed it we haven't changed the anode we haven't changed any of the heater elements. Definitely going to tear this thing apart once we replace it

[@flybyairplane3528]

Katea Jurors some years ago at my SIL in PLANTATION FL, one day I looked at the WH,it was 30 years old never drained by her, so I replaced it before our trip ended there , she had water damage from upstairs, did quite a mess, had to replace carpeting, then MOLD , she had to have her insurance cover it, you can’t sue the other person, , as is how condo laws are .

[@jetmaster1221]

does this also go for tankless that are all stainless steele boilers?

[@jamest.5001]

I have a unconventional water system. at my off grid home. I have a shallow well. and a thankless heater. I haven't used it. but its a camper type for basically a shower. I'm using it in my home. for hot water in the sink and shower. I was thinking of adding another one . if there isn't enough flow. I don't think mineral build up would be that much of an issue. I also have two carbon filters inline. I Aldo need to re plumb the house. its a jumble of 70 years of plumbing types. I'm thinking pex. I don't guess there any concerns of it breaking down. and polluting the water. I don't plan to drink the water until its been well tested. and used for a while. I guess pex is the best cheapest thing?

[@thebuddha4208]

I have a regular hot water tank I’ve never run out of hot water sure it might cool down but it never gets cold

[@billiamc1969]

It's best to have a water softener unit for Sure!!! Besides that in this day and age it's majorly prudent to also have a full water filtration system since municipal water is getting sketchier all the time from the failing infrastructure that isn't maintained at all in this country. Lead incidences are on the rise across the entire country from west coast to east coast!!!! We run a high efficiency boiler system for domestic hot water and heat and without a softener system it would be clogged to the hilt but almost 10 years later we have never had a scale issue...

[@lkm5462]

How many times have you lost parts down the sink drain? I never put parts there. Even the floor is better. Nice vid though.Also a pvc part with a 90 aimed at the floor and all the water is not going every where and still the flow is good for the blow out