MB/Mason/Jack/Flencer/+ vs TT Theists Pt2: EXPLOSION!

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[@funkehouse]

Jack is a freaking treasure. I love watching him dominate these fools

[@isaacconto1551]

death is the separation of the soul from the body

[@HumblyQuestioning]

James 2:26 "For as the body without the spirit is dead…" Literally the definition of death is soul separation from body.

[@frederickfairlieesq5316]

Yeah but Jack pointed out a loophole, so all bets are off.

[@davec-1378]

Hour in and they finally get to the perspective jack was presenting all along I’ve been screaming at my phone for59 minutes!

[@HumblyQuestioning]

I honestly can't believe John calls himself a Christian but denies "death" is separation of soul and body. That's so basic that he's either dishonest (almost certainly he is regardless of whether he's lying or speaking out of complete ignorance) unimaginably stupid (which he clearly is not).

[@displacegamer1379]

13:02 From a biblical perspective, if the soul remains within the body, the body is considered alive regardless of any active biological functions. Death, in this context, is defined as the separation of the soul from the body. Therefore, the crucial issue is determining when the soul departs. Simply stating that death occurs when the soul leaves the body is a tautology-it restates the definition without providing observable criteria. There is no contradiction in asserting that a body lacking biological functions can still be alive if the soul is present. The Bible does not explicitly support the idea that the soul immediately departs when bodily functions cease. A Christian might argue that the soul remains in the body for a period after biological functions have stopped, meaning the body is not technically dead even if it appears so. Therefore, as long as the soul resides in the body, it is not truly dead according to this definition of death.

[@Rev-bb9ej]

34:00 "Do I think proper names pick out persons?" ... "I don't think names are equal to the person." Was that an answer to that question? lolololol

[@displacegamer1379]

6:45 Death does have many meanings in Christianity. You also have to keep in mind that in Revelations it speaks of a second death. The second death happens after you've already died in the physical body. This means death can happen without the need for a physical body. And if death can happen without the need for a physical body then it means that the definition of death there can't be the separation of the body and soul. So while colloquially I do agree that when most Christians say death they mean when your soul exits your body, in Christianity, at least biblically speaking, death does not necessarily mean that.

[@jasonnoble7302]

Jack rules 👍 Education and Entertainment level 1,000 ⭐️⭐️⭐️🥲✝️ The world needs more Jack 🎉

[@MrBiggdeey-uo5xv]

This guy John is tripping Jack is right just read 2 Corinthians 5:8 it doesn't get more clear than that under the Christian view🤷🏿‍♂️

[@frederickfairlieesq5316]

The thing people like John don’t know about Jack is that he is incredibly disciplined with the things he says. He doesn’t just shoot bullshit from the hip. People hear Jack yelling and they think he’s being belligerent and/or trying to drown out the voice of someone who has pinned him in the debate. The reality is that Jack gets angry when 1) his verbal precision and clearly thought out arguments are strawmanned, 2) his opponent is equivocating 3) his opponent refuses to answer a simple question that they know devastates their position, 4) they talk over him. John did each of these things. John’s only rebuttal (so far) is to propose a scenario that doesn’t seem to be coherent on his own view. He’s like yeah, death is the separation of the soul from the body, but what if God flexes his omnipotence and decides to keep the soul attached to the body for 36 minutes and 42 seconds after the body ceases all processes? Well, what does that even mean? Is that even possible scripturally? Or is John just trying to win a debate by advocating for a position that has no scriptural backing and doesn’t seem to even be coherent on his own worldview?

[@darth_mb]

@@frederickfairlieesq5316 exactly, great analysis 👌.

[@benroberts2222]

Jack's argument as I understand it: P1: names pick out persons P2: named referents die in scripture C1: persons die (P1 + P2) P3: living persons consist of a body and a soul (substance dualism) C2: person with body and soul dies => soul dies (P3) P4: person dies -> the soul does not die C3: no persons die with body and soul (C2 + P4) C4: person dies -> soul separates from the body => the body dies (C1 + P3 + C3) If you change P3 to say that a person is just a soul, there's a straight logical contradiction that a soul dies and does not die. The fix is to say there must be an equivocation between what it means for a person to die versus a soul. John didn't accept P3 as I wrote it and rather said a person is only a soul/spirit, so the argument weakens. His counterargument seems to be saying that we can define a person (soul) "dying" in various ways, and he proposes defining it as experiencing the death of its physical body. Then separation from the body is not necessary. I wasn't expecting this but I think I side more with John here.

[@frederickfairlieesq5316]

John wants to know if a Jew gets gassed and the body incinerated and scattered in the wind in a concentration camp, can God make the soul still be inside the body blowing in the wind. If Jack can’t answer that question then what, Jesus really died?

[@displacegamer1379]

11:36 The theist in his conversation should have gone to about this in a different way. Jack is not incorrect in his interpretation of this meaning of death. There are several forms of death illustrated in the Bible. Separation from the body is a form of death. This is biblically supported. "For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is also dead." -James 2:26

[@oftenincorrect]

Oh John 🤦‍♂️

[@displacegamer1379]

23:06 This argument is going to hinge on the theology of the Christian. Not all Christians take it that the father and the son are equal in command. Some parts of Christianity take it that the Father rules over the Son. Some Christians are going to take it that it is the Father that removed the Son from its body. The Son did not have control over this. They're going to point to the Bible verses where the Son is pleading to the Father for this death to not happen. This is going to be indicative that the Father is in control of the soul remaining in Jesus's body. So we have to be very specific about the type of Christian that we're talking about here. Because the Christian can make an argument that Jesus was not in control of if his soul stayed in his body. We can't speak of Christianity as a monolith in this sense.