MBPP EP. 598 - STOP DEEP SQUATS, 90° is FULL Range of Motion ft. Dr. Joel Seedman

Dr. Joel Seedman has different training methods than we've all been taught. By his calculations of lengthening a muscle, we do not need to go further than 90 degrees to reach full range of motion. Full explanation in this episode as well as a special guest appearance from Dr. Mike Israetel who is on the complete other side of the spectrum as to what qualifies as full range of motion.
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Time Shtamps
00:00 - High Protein Cereal Magic Spoon
03:20 - Episode Preview
08:26 - Joel receives a lot of hate online
11:30 - We haven’t seen him say athletes shouldn’t stretch or squat to full ROM
13:40 - Don’t train so specific for your sport
16:50 - We haven’t seen anyone coach like this
18:20 - Joel Seedman joins
19:00 - Joel is the first of his kind
21:30 - 90 degree principle
23:45 - Mark agrees w/ Joel about squats
27:30 - Muscle Centration
28:08 - Mobility helps Nsima maintain tension
30:56 - Is mobility worth an athlete's time?
37:17 - Seeing results in his athlete’s performance
41:11 - How did Joel discover all of this?
46:36 - Full ROM causes degradation?
52:55 - Joel uses some of Ben Patrick’s Protocols
58:03 - Deep ROM will come back to haunt you
1:00:00 - Why will it come back to haunt you?
1:06:17 - Does Joel allow unloaded full ROM?
1:09:46 - Mark did full ROM and is STILL Tight today
1:12:58 - Full ROM backfired on Joel
1:17:25 - What if you do full ROM with light weight?
1:21:57 - How we train in the gym is how we play on the field
1:27:32 - How to save on Blood work
1:31:59 - What if we just wanna get JACKED?
1:36:48 - Box Squats
1:39:46 - Squat Cues
1:41:18 - Mike Israetel enters the chat
1:43:54 - 90 Degrees is better for joints???
1:47:34 - Are you really against Full ROM?
1:50:34 - Is 90 Degrees good for everyone?
1:52:08 - Can Full ROM Protect you?
1:56:23 - Is your training style therapeutic?
1:56:34 - 90 Degrees Vs Full ROM for Muscle Growth
1:59:15 - Unstable training vs stable
2:02:48 - Joel posts eye catching content on purpose
2:07:10 - Joel’s most convincing point
2:09:47 - What younger Joel would have said about Joel’s training today
2:13:23 - Unstable movements explained
2:16:41 - Light resistance vs heavy resistance & Louie Simmons
2:25:38 - Does Joel’s training cause Reciprocal Innervation?
2:31:18 - How do single leg movements transfer over to sport?
2:36:34 - Why blind fold your athletes?
2:41:39 - Rapid Functional Pulses
2:44:14 - What is Joel working on?
2:46:37 - What equipment is needed for Joel’s programs?
2:47:37 - Joel signs off and episode review
2:48:24 - Rapid Functional Pulses shown
2:49:56 - Seems like EVERYTHING is debatable
3:00:15 - Show wrap up
#PowerProject #Podcast #MarkBell

[@jasonabercrombie7869]

I used to deep squat doing farm work when I was young. Seemed pretty natural at the time. Then I stopped when I began weightlifting because I was told that’s what you do. Stuck to 90 degrees. After years of that I started getting knee pain. After watching Ben Patrick recently, I started working deeper ranges of motion, and my knees feel better. At 40 I’m running and jumping like I did 10 years ago.

[@Paytoncole]

Awesome you guys should have an Olympic weight lifter on soon like zack Telander he’s great

[@MarkBellsPowerProject]

Thanks for the rec

[@Sunesha]

He is entertaining dude too

[@LogosBKC]

Definitely zach. Yeah Zach. Get Zach. Zach would be good.

[@SilverSurfer8]

Also Sika strength guys

[@LogosBKC]

@@SilverSurfer8 yeah I only came over to comment support for Zack bc they suggested in their video haha. Those two are my favorite guys in the industry right now

[@jacobrousse111]

You could see the fear in his face when he said he invited Dr. Mike 🤣🤣🤣

[@trenmage]

he's def a little nervous... cant blame him, public speaking is weird

[@danielcelisgarza]

Mark is to the fitness industry what Joe Rogan used to be to podcasting.

[@MeetSuperDave]

The first and best? No.

[@roundboxfitness3588]

These discussions are super important for our entire Industry . This is the perfect way to have them as well. Asking and not attacking . It’s so productive. Props to everyone involved here .

[@MarkBellsPowerProject]

Don't miss out on the surprise call in from Team Full ROM leader Mike Israetel!!

[@Improveathletics]

What!! seriously?

[@chris51ification]

Would have been even funnier if you had uncle Rip.

[@mattc4266]

That was legendary

[@timguerra6801]

He politely crushed that dude

[@actuitivevisrl1014]

And the follow up debunk on mike's channel is a good chuckle

[@metalicspade]

I love the change in body language when the Dr steps in & ask questions.

[@path8969]

Would love to have knees over toes guys and Seedman on at the same time. Such polar opposite ends of the spectrum

[@MarkBellsPowerProject]

Joel was invited to the KOT seminar.

[@chris51ification]

Every time he was pressed about something he didn’t argue his points and acting reasonable about things but all of his content is extremely against the norm.

[@naukafit]

Dr Seedman manipulated and sneaked his way out of every question Dr Israetel asked. Just like in the debate with Dr Norton and this carnivore guy 😷

[@uns33n]

"Idk man there is evidence on both sides of everything. So I tend to rely on my non falsifiable anecdotal evidence."

[@mindyourbuisness8104]

Ben Patrick and this guy both have ideas that question the norm. Difference is Ben shows great examples to back his stuff up and people that is has clearly worked on. Seedman falls back on "this is only 20% ) even tho it's all he shows and can't show anyone who got great using these techniques. Dude is all about marketing

[@timguerra6801]

Seems like a joke to me

[@helphowdoinputusername3571]

Ben's methods also follow basic training principles, just applied to areas most people don't. His tib bar is no different from using a dumbbell to train your biceps. And he applies basic progressive overload like anyone else. His Nordic curls are no different from taking a person from knee push ups, to push ups, to one arm push-ups (progressive overload). Honestly, everything he does is basic training knowledge that has been tested and proven. He just applies it to areas most people ignore. And his reasoning behind it is what's so intelligent.

[@helphowdoinputusername3571]

Joel on the other hand...well it speaks for itself with him.

[@danielndibongo5048]

@@helphowdoinputusername3571 absolutely true. his program is almost perfectly balanced from a lower body perspective

[@Rau-AR]

This is what happened centuries ago, when they saw someone defying the norm, they instantly reject what he has to offer to the world and got killed by the church. Everyone is acting so poorly- angry about it, and I'm not even a guy that squat 90º I do pistols squat weighted. You said '' can't show anyone who got great using these techniques'' , that's a true statement Maybe, but did you saw how professional athletes train? go cheak out Lebron James squat form, go check out Deontay Wilder bench press form... What about Tom Brady stats (this is a example of something that has become a norm in the sport and hasn't translated in successful results). What i take from this guy is that he is method seems like the most 'bang for your buck'' type of training (mostly related to athletes) strengthening to the range of motion that you will use the MOST with an even higher capacity of overload cuz of the shortened range of motion (same way as Arm-wrestlers train) without getting to the full range of motion where these mechanics get more complicated (So more chance to get injured) if not performed correctly and not everyone body physiology would be able to do it.

[@jaeden1132]

I don't regularly watch full podcasts but I really enjoyed this. I watched the full part with Dr Mike. Great episode, I like how genuine, real and to the point it remained. No flaming, still funny and enjoyable. Not to mention informative. Great!

[@karlanthony3521]

I would love to know why whenever anybody asks him to back up his (incredibly questionable) claims on social media all he ever says is to refer to his own (equally questionable) writings. Does he not actually have any other sources or data he can refer to?

[@MarkBellsPowerProject]

1st of his kind, maybe?

[@karlanthony3521]

@@MarkBellsPowerProject Or maybe a charlatan who uses overly complex, jargon filled descriptions in place of any actual evidence?

[@MarkBellsPowerProject]

@@karlanthony3521 lol lets hope not. Thanks for stopping by and commenting today.

[@lbxhockeytraining]

@@karlanthony3521 Spot on

[@actuitivevisrl1014]

@@karlanthony3521 Yeah he seems well practiced at avoiding the truth

[@TheMunst]

Dr Mike under the lights of the ROM GODS

[@MarkBellsPowerProject]

Lookin like the final boss

[@jmarsh3]

Joel Seedman? Dude is a quack.

[@LebronJr8]

😂😂

[@trenmage]

says you

[@ironcross1252]

From babies and children we can squat ATG. many cultures can do this effortlessly because its been practiced. Countless sports practice the ATG squat without it being controversial, its just so weird how people cant use their own eyes to really figure this one out, i think people come into the gym with shitty form and the job is to understand why they have this issue not say “ ok well 90 degree squats for you” sounds very snakeoil

[@Bklemmy]

Absolutely. Do you need to squat atg all the time? No. Is it something you should work towards having the proper mobility to do? 100%

[@nebulasupreme2009]

bodyweight atg squat vs loaded atg squat are significantly different…. gravity, position of torso, loading of spine, bodyweight is exclusively legs, loaded is full body, ego comes into play…. bodyweight atg squat might do a few here and there depending on lifestyle (sitting at a desk vs. labor twisting bending squatting) loaded you chase heavy loads

[@2haiti]

@@nebulasupreme2009 football players, sprinters, gymnasts, basketballers, soccer players, all regularly require themselves to be in positions where they are loaded in the way so you describe. The goal shouldn't be to scare these people out of full & loaded range of motion exercises for fear of injury, especially when evidence points to the contrary in terms of Injury prevention and rehab.

[@MrCmon113]

@@2haiti None of those people ever have to press up a heavy weight from a squat. That's a very specific skill and kind of strength. Also it's not out of fear of injury that people avoid this, but to be able to do higher weights. Like you do deadlifts with a heavier weight than cleans.

[@stearnsy4005]

@@MrCmon113 Football players often put up 400+ pounds, Olympic lifters put up insane weight with their asses literally on the ground.

[@troycross2858]

I see people giving you guys crap for giving Joel a platform. I like that you had him on as if he is as bad as everyone says he is then let him make himself a fool for all to see. Interesting podcast.

[@trenmage]

ppl love to draw to conclusions and judge other ppl out there taking risks and doing the work... while they sit back and do nothing themselves...

[@luttrelll5517]

Dr. Mike is the best

[@thomasshrout3911]

My brother is a leading sports surgeon/orthopedic surgeon as well as a micro surgeon. He has even worked with the DC United Soccer team as their surgeon in the past. We were recently discussing this very topic in regards to my shoulders which I have injured years ago but need to keep in shape for surfing and rock climbing. My brother strongly preaches this 90° rule which in my mind I kind of pooh-poohed but after hearing it a second time makes considerably more sense.

[@actuitivevisrl1014]

Confirmation bias

[@ImBarl]

@@actuitivevisrl1014 How? lmfao like cmon now.

[@trashgoat4560]

Just found you guys through MPMD and Mikes channels and I'm hooked, you two are great to listen to

[@defygravity9211]

“Who’s that NFL player, nick name Gumby… you know black guy.” That narrows it down. Hahaha

[@MarkBellsPowerProject]

Hahaha Ohhhh that guy. Yeah… lmao

[@jasonkoch3175]

Why would you do this? 😆 I've never hurt my knees squatting below parallel, but I have hurt them trying to stop at parallel (the exact angle where a full sheer load is on the knees) on a regular basis because I was afraid of knees over toes back in the day.

[@MarkBellsPowerProject]

interesting take.

[@jasonkoch3175]

@@MarkBellsPowerProject it was just tendinitis but still. Squatting to parallel is fine especially to train for a comp, but every set, every rep .. ? I don't think the body knows or cares about an exact angle and if I'm not mistaken when you train a muscle it gets strongest through a full rom and if you say limit it to half Rom, the half you don't train won't progress the same the rom you do train. Especially with isometric training.

[@sagar_m]

@@jasonkoch3175 i had a similar experience. I stopped at about 90 degree while pause squating and I could feel the tension through my knee joint. I did like 3 reps at best and gave up because I was afraid to hurt my knees.

[@tedadams876]

Damn mark, set seedman up eh. A long time coming I guess. Appreciated by the fitness community I'm sure lol

[@Improveathletics]

Yo nsima is asking the real questions!

[@MarkBellsPowerProject]

@@peteregan9038 smooth panther voice

[@trenmage]

he's a very passionate guy and it's fun to watch him come up with questions

[@Sunesha]

I appreciate you discuss different point of views. I think we learned more if we challenge ourselves. I think it be episode I learn a lot

[@jukasipo]

Mike and Nsima's brain is just on another level.

[@chrismelendez1082]

Have Knees over toes guy next on your show.

[@iyziejane]

You're in luck, they've already done a 3 hour episode and it's good kzbin.info/www/bejne/qV6ZiJd6rJJrhsU

[@cliffordschorr]

Yup he's already been on the show. He actually has great info compared to this guy

[@MarkBellsPowerProject]

He's coming back late in October

[@1supersayian]

@@cliffordschorr I love how he ❤ your post lol

[@danielndibongo5048]

@@MarkBellsPowerProject YESSSSSSSSS!

[@rebeccashifflet8843]

I very recently found this podcast and I must say I LOOOOVE IT! Such great info so much so many views on training. Y'all's videos have help me so much already. Thank you! ☺️

[@AD-on4qr]

Not sure about this going in but always give it a chance! 👍

[@MarkBellsPowerProject]

same here.

[@lablusa]

People don't see the difference between a kid in a deep squat position with his teddy bear and an adult who sits on a chair all day long, squatting with a bar on the back trying to get a workout done

[@MarkBellsPowerProject]

depends on how much the teddy bear weighs. If it's a big bear, that kid is definitely juicing

[@imyournewstepdad]

What this guy calls 90 degrees is pitiful. He squats to 45 degrees max, and rages at anyone who calls him out to read his bs articles. You dont get to oick a random body part, say its at 90 degrees, then try to change the definition of a 90 degree squat. Best part is, even in the articles he references to justify his positions they recommend squatting with full range of motion when possible (ATG). This guy has a doctorate and apparently didnt read the fucking articles he references.

[@ImBarl]

Man everything you said is so ignorant.

[@skullospice]

Every time you talk shit about full ROM, Dr.Mike is in the walls, waiting to pounce

[@DensityMatrix1]

Why?

[@MarkBellsPowerProject]

We're open minded

[@labdad4695]

This makes sense. When deadlifts are performed, you ain't getting full ROM on your lats but they getting a lot of tension.

[@emmanueloluga9770]

what makes sense?

[@labdad4695]

@@emmanueloluga9770 that full ROM is not necessary for muscle growth.

[@AesthMed]

@@labdad4695 it's not necessary, but avoiding full ROM is less efficient

[@labdad4695]

@@AesthMed Agree. 💪 However, I'm lazy and want maximum gains for the least amount of effort.

[@MrCmon113]

@@labdad4695 Do you know what "efficient" means?

[@chisailor87]

Sneedman??? Oh boy.

[@MarkBellsPowerProject]

scared the shneet outta me, thought I spelled his name wrong

[@LRkun]

Nice having this sort of discussion. :)

[@derrick1019]

Knees over toes guy would have something to say about this

[@MarkBellsPowerProject]

he knows a thing or two about a knee or two.

[@derrick1019]

@@MarkBellsPowerProject 😂🥁

[@imbaguitar]

upvoted for Dr Mike

[@masterbasgym]

you should have christopher sommers on

[@dojanglesclimb]

That would be interesting

[@dors.sc1]

Your athletes actually never needed to foam roll or stretch because these things don't really do anything

[@pokerdiver123]

this should be awesome.

[@MarkBellsPowerProject]

hope you enjoyed it.

[@gilbertgurney4898]

What great timing as I just stumbled upon his work in the last few days. And have been deep diving the free articles on his website. Will be trying those 90deg ROM ideas.

[@MarkBellsPowerProject]

thats the best way to go about it. Try for yourself and see how you like it.

[@Harry-rr4km]

Unless you're injured there's literally no point

[@Sandro1989]

I'm fine with being open minded on your show :) But this is a straight up Con-Man. I can't really agree with exposure here because some people simply can't see through his snake oil. But kodos 'n stuff. Looking forward to the next podcast :)

[@MarkBellsPowerProject]

Respek

[@nosteponsnek-ic5ph]

Can u guys host a debate between Rippetoe and Seedman? That would be gold

[@tommyboyfitness]

I don’t agree with squatting real deep with a heavy weight if you want to keep a small but And a small waist. You can go and squat deep with a lighter weight or you could do front squats or you could do the squats that I do that this guy does an advocate

[@MeetSuperDave]

Ok this showed me he isn’t a quack. This helped shed some light on him and his methods. I agree with almost everything he said yet before I thought he was a clown. Mission accomplished Mark🙏🏽

[@Crabragoon116]

Damn sucks to be you

[@MeetSuperDave]

@@Crabragoon116 delete your life.

[@danielndibongo5048]

this comment showed me some people are really bad at analyzing whether someone is bullshitting or not

[@ImBarl]

@@Crabragoon116 Seedman actually went to school for Exercise Science and earned a Phd in that field, Id go with his word over yours.

[@themax17]

True anything can be argued...especially when the answer has a tremendous amount of words. Very difficult to compare apples to apples. We can measure what works well, but it's very hard to measure what would work better (at what timeframe, for who, for what goal). I think it's probably impossible for the most effective training to be the most popular because humans are very visual and like shiny objects. Thanks for sharing an interesting conversation. Liked the considerate wrap-up.

[@MEAT-BASED-VEGAN]

Now debate with jason blaha?

[@troyarguelles6214]

Don't forget Pjfperformance as well

[@MarkBellsPowerProject]

what about PB&JPerformance? Just being dumb, thanks for the recommendation.

[@troyarguelles6214]

@@MarkBellsPowerProject Paul J.fabritz

[@PhilosopherPrince]

Fuck me Mark Bell looks good with that Stache. For a second I thought that was Chris Bumstead sitting there. :D

[@dard4642]

That moustache is so sweet -- if Mark gets pulled over, he can write the cop a ticket!

[@pelonete5000]

would be interesting to watch a debate between this guy and Doug Brignole.

[@Boss3Nate]

I guess I don't like squatting much past parallel bc of lower back pain... I can't imagine one is better than the other at the end of the day

[@adamsc1181]

Joel seedman hopped in his duffy bag for this

[@LRkun]

I like to stretch after exercising. :). For some reason it's easier to stretch after the muscle is warmed up

[@linpaul]

Y’all should have Dane Miller from Garage Strength on!

[@adrianan9762]

Jesus ! mike's lighting is just supra-physiological !!!

[@mellpear4773]

This should be good 👀

[@MarkBellsPowerProject]

hope you enjoyed it.

[@fleadoggreen9062]

Totally sandbagged that guy

[@LogosBKC]

Definitely zach. Yeah Zach. Get Zach. Zach would be good.

[@chaz4544]

Should ask this dude how he does a pull up lmao

[@thomasshrout3911]

Also I don’t feel like weight training is where you want to expand your range of motion take a yoga class at least a couple times a week.

[@TheMunst]

Trying to call out Dr Mike as only a “bodybuilding guy”…..GTFO.

[@dr.joelseedman]

Thanks again for having me on the show I really enjoyed it

[@mattc4266]

Joel why did you block me ?!?! You’re a smart guy just stop the gimmicks lol

[@shinc999]

Wow this was a very interesting conversation that might change my outlook on my training

[@dard4642]

Because, after 90-degrees, you need Einsteinian physics to even understand what's going on AND you start tinkering with the temperamental space-time continuum, which is even more dangerous than walking to your restaurant table unmasked. For real, though -- you can't strengthen a ROM that you don't train.

[@jacquesdelange1189]

I seen a clip of Seedman's TikTok doing 90 degree squad ... unfortunately angle between his lower and upper leg junction was not even 120 degrees... before he comes out with bizarre claims he needs to do his own squats properly... There is an important space for partial and full range squats.... I think I will stick with ATG, Keegan Smith and Ben Patrick

[@MrCmon113]

What do people actually mean with ATG? I can literally touch my ass to the ground while squatting, but I would barely be able to lift any weight that way. So squatting like that would make it into a balancing exercise and totally inefficient for strength and hypertrophy. By just being a little bit higher I can squat ten times the weight making it an efficient exercise.

[@seamussullivan2218]

@@MrCmon113 athletic truth group is Ben Patrick’s business

[@mattc4266]

The chaos god himself !

[@masonmalaguti3463]

Nah seedman bro I be getting my friends injured bro especially football players u have some good decent stuff but the training ideology isn’t worth the risks

[@trenmage]

i think ppl forget about the power of the free market. like he said, his athletes work with him for a reason. i will admit, his videos are fucking out there. especially when he does the humping the air stuff 😂 that shit is comedy gold. but so many of these internet ppl think they know better than a doctor who works w pros. i think its great that theres all sorts of different minds working on the same problems and coming up with different solutions. i wouldnt have it any other way. the herd mentality wants us to live where we dogmatically follow or are afraid to go our own way... thats probably my fav thing about joel, he's def not afraid to be an individual. and props to mark for having him. i really like that about you mark, youre very open minded and thats an amazing characteristic lacking in many today.

[@trenmage]

i think it would be awesome to see you guys work with joel at the gym

[@ohno837]

Oh my god!!!! This is it!!!!

[@MarkBellsPowerProject]

hope it lived up to the hype.

[@slibbs2869]

1:05:25 Joel said he’s never heard someone make a good argument for full ROM which just proves he isn’t researching. Guy is just desperately trying to look for any evidence to support his own theory

[@healthcoachadrian]

Please get Joe Bennet on the show. (Hypertrophycoach)

[@BostjanBavcon]

Laughs in Mike Israetel.

[@jacobrousse111]

Mustache is dope btw

[@vorrr9]

joel shiestman!?!?

[@MarkBellsPowerProject]

maybe we'll have him on one day

[@billbergmann7840]

this was pure comedy great

[@naukafit]

Dr Joel is a nice guy but his views are analogous to flat-earthers. They are pretty regressive.

[@jacquesdelange1189]

when would you invite Rich Froning :-)

[@russtemuka9849]

Cant believe how much hate Joel gets this was a phenomenal podcast so informative and thought-provoking

[@Murasame]

MPMD!!!!

[@byronstair832]

Just because you have a degree doesn't make you smart.

[@Tom_North]

1:54:00 - “practice your sport” even though you said in an interview a few months back that for “to optimise your sprinting capabilities, you should perform 90° eccentric isometrics” He’s slowwwwwly learning bless him 😂😂😂

[@DamTheKid]

NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

[@boxerfencer]

57:51 toilet flush?

[@joshuapeek9555]

dont give this guy more platforms

[@ImBarl]

Keep hating.

[@dlp2006]

Some interesting ideas but a lack of logic and science to prove it, “we’ve been moving through ranges for millennium and move worse now “ that’s a massive leap

[@98230983290]

I want to believe him, I do think there is value in going out of your way to do weird stuff (on top of the normal stuff). But then again, that's also how clickbait is made.

[@Ophois47]

LMAO

[@kranx2690]

This is a meme

[@shozby]

Seedman should go into politics. Lots of talking, mostly bullshit.

[@benkuharik]

I love Israetel but he’s kinda a jerk the way he often portrays himself

[@benkuharik]

But man are Joel’s arguments terrible

[@98230983290]

Israetel has been working with doped bodies for too long, forgot how naturals train. Untrained naturals would likely see results from Joel's nonsense, while they would likely get discouraged by trying to follow Dr. Israetel.

[@joeswanson8219]

Theres a reason you arent growing as fast as other podcasts. 500 eps and not even 100k. Get better people on, interview better, and stop writing notes all the time WHILE someones talking to you. you have very little truly good information on your page