Joel Seedman Debates Mike Israetel on 90° Squats vs Full Squats

Dr. Joel Seedman has different training methods than we've all been taught. By his calculations of lengthening a muscle, we do not need to go further than 90 degrees to reach full range of motion. Full explanation in this episode as well as a special guest appearance from Dr. Mike Israetel who is on the complete other side of the spectrum as to what qualifies as full range of motion.
In this Power Bite, Joel Seedman debates Mike Israetel on squatting to 90 degrees vs a full squat.
FULL EPISODE:
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[@dr.joelseedman]

Loved these questions from Mike, great respect for him. Thanks again for having me on here

[@MarkBellsPowerProject]

Thanks for giving us and Mike the opportunity. You did great.

[@TheNietzschian]

question dodging dishonest con-man :)

[@yungemu3236]

Please keep posting your home workouts Ive been laughing so much I'm getting v cut abs

[@SLude480]

For what it’s worth, I stop at 90 on bench for two reasons. One- my arms are way long and if I went all the way down to my chest my elbows would be far below the bench- and it’s super uncomfortable. Two- tendonitis in my shoulders.

[@donutbarbell]

You should go into politics with that level of dodging 😂

[@ethantrainingyt]

Mike: Explains sports science to Joel Joel: Explains marketing to Mike

[@Balakay_Adkins]

Lmao pretty much the debate summed up

[@hssjz2718]

Exactly!

[@ENERGYONXBOX]

Glad I'm not alone...

[@fenixchief7]

Its a win-win for both of them

[@alanrastelli]

Perfect summary

[@sumdudenorris106]

When I hear Dr. Seedman talk, it gives me the urge to perform a max single on rope supported chair jumps

[@armedjoy3045]

0 reps in reserve

[@Gschmidt247]

Pure muscular failure at its finest

[@antebasic2418]

@@armedjoy3045 How about 0 reps in reverse 🤔 just to shock the muscle 😉

[@jater10]

Please do a one rep max full depth squat rather than that. There is more to life than Seedman squats.

[@dennis12345674]

😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@divinepipkins]

Joel Seedman summed up: “my client says that going past 90 degrees hurts and their is inflammation, so instead of fixing the obvious issue that he has, I’m gonna assume that every single human being has this issue, and I’m going to make all of my clients only go 90 degrees”

[@johnkouvaras8004]

I think it’s cause his clients get injured a lot more than the average human so he optimizes their training, you aren’t the starting quarterback of the redskins so go bench to your chest, his shoulder is worth 22 million dollars unlike yours

[@divinepipkins]

@@johnkouvaras8004 is that you Joel??

[@getstrongby4038]

@@johnkouvaras8004 LOL

[@XXLRebel]

@@johnkouvaras8004 Can you even read?

[@Themindofreyrey]

☑️

[@lipscantgo]

Mike is a *surgeon* of debate. He won by pretty much just asking questions.

[@gymjamuni]

And then saying “hmm” 👏

[@az2252]

@@gymjamuni and thats when he knew .......he fawked up

[@jacobhate]

What's crazy is Dr Avi absolutely slaughtered Mike in a debate on veganism. Definitely worth a look if you find interest in this type of thing

[@az2252]

@@jacobhate I'm sure it was a short debate.... "Veganism is stupid!" Thanks for coming to my Ted talk

[@jacobhate]

@@az2252 no, it was pretty long. Mike certainly held his own better than you would, but he can't come up with a much of a coherent argument either

[@zacktelander]

I have dreamt of debating this man for YEARS now. Thank you, mark for putting this together.

[@jackemarleeyoung]

Zack would’ve been bright red and laughing the entire time. Let’s be honest 😂

[@NamelessUndead91]

Would have loved that debate I'm surprised this charlatan even did this debate.

[@badr4363]

But he doesn't look like a troll 😔

[@slee2695]

Debate Rippletoe instead

[@BrandonWilliams-wf6hg]

"It's like 120 pages right? I'm not gonna sit there and read a book" - Zack Telander

[@jordangalida8387]

Mike: "Here is my argument and the research supporting why I believe it. Why do you train in the opposite way of what the research suggests is optimal?" Joel: "First of all, love that you're a good guy. I'm also a good guy. Love seeing good guys talk. And to your question, I'd say why not both?" ????

[@alanrastelli]

Worlds full of weasels like Joel. We need to call them out. Mike did it like a pro

[@TSfish94]

Any time someone starts a debate by kissing ass, they’ve already lost.

[@jimmykronberg763]

The squat and bench press depth Seedman was wrong 100%. With the unstable exercise selection they 100% have their place. His argument for those was valid even if some of the things he said supporting that argument were wonky

[@magmahawk583]

@@TSfish94”kissing ass” in a debate is not losing in and of itself, building rapport with the other person can help to establish common ground and reduce recalcitrance. Look up the arguing to convince course by Renaissance periodization with Dr. Mike

[@jcgggg]

Seriously, loads of talk and no real points made by him.

[@Hedgeflexlfz]

Seedman proves that anyone can get a PHD in kinesiology.

[@PhiyackYuh]

You need to get top marks from the beginning till end of undergrad but also need to compete with others that want to also do doctorate. Do you think you have what it takes intellectually? Lifting don’t mean jack crap if you got no flex on ya brain bro. So whats it gonna be?

[@kacperkubiak2995]

@@PhiyackYuh Top marks are a function of rote memorization skills in many programs, not critical thinking ability. Maybe it's true that not everybody has what it takes, but at the same time, it is far from a sign of superior intelligence (though of course, phds on avarage would tent to statistically exhibit higher ones than the pop. gen.)

[@ryancarranza2240]

@@PhiyackYuh this is definitely not the case with that field. I have a Master’s degree in the field and the curriculum is pretty much a joke. Most of the profs in the field know absolutely fuck all about lifting. This is 100% the honest truth, I learned more about biomechanics and application in 6 months training with elite/pro level powerlifters than I did in 6 years in school. It’s regurgitating info that the profs believe and not a constantly evolving field that critically analyzed data.

[@djelenic5]

@@ryancarranza2240 I can confirm this in Croatian University also.. Stopped listening anything my profesors said when one of them said my knees shouldnt go over my toes...

[@jackdemoguitar]

Anyone can get a PHD in anything. Academia is truly a joke at this point. There’s a guy who got a PHD in “Marxian Economics”.

[@Voidrunner01]

Doc Mike is a world-class diplomat.

[@mrbartuss1]

He would do very well in politics

[@Agnes135]

@@mrbartuss1 He's too smart for politics

[@dimanaboytcheva7078]

His ability to stay calm and polite in this debate is extrordinary lol, I'd lose my shit

[@jessemanmarcharris]

Check out his channel! You'll hear zero diplomacy on his video on Troll Seedman

[@trainwithtimothy]

Joel gave zero answers of any substance. Dr Mike was far too nice as always

[@Harry-rr4km]

This guy genuinely arguing the best way to prepare for a range of motion involved in a sport, is to never use that range of motion apart from when you play the sport 😂

[@jaydonlozier3987]

Man’s a quack. He admits all his methods are based on “experience” not science

[@budgetsneakerhead3291]

He does kind of have a point with the sport specificity thing, but it doesn’t explain some of the strange exercises on his Instagram page

[@jaydonlozier3987]

@@budgetsneakerhead3291 What point would that be? Not doing full range of motion to decrease inflammation rather than full rom to build mobility

[@budgetsneakerhead3291]

@@jaydonlozier3987 just that it really isn’t for anybody. And if you really do want to do certain exercises, I’m a certain range of motion, you have to really start from the ground up. Not a novel concept that he came up with, just saying there is truth scattered in what he’s saying. His idea that 90 is the end all and be all is insane though.

[@3k955]

@@budgetsneakerhead3291 yeah he kind of has a point but take it to the extreme. Should you squat atg? For a sprinter maybe in the off-season. In season it could be detrimental for performance.

[@m_js5709]

Mike is the perfect debater. He doesn't get emotional & utilizes facts to dispute and dismantle any ideas that are non scientific instead of turning into passive aggressiveness. He knows that through good faith debating, the truth stands on its own and trying to roast the other guy only gets in the way of exposing the truth. More people need to learn how to conduct intellectually honest and measured debates like Mike while still maintaining the correct science to the best of our knowledge as the measuring stick much like he does.

[@jgoldian47]

wouldlove to see him debate with Derek MPMD LOL OR GREG DOUCETTE that'd be entertaining

[@Tenthplanetjj86]

@@jgoldian47 him and Greg already had a conversation on training volume/intensity moderated by Omar Isuf

[@andyj845]

Excellent use of the Socratic Method.

[@ZombieLincoln666]

Well he is a professor of this stuff

[@BLOEDVLEK]

Honestly, Dr Mike is just walking all over this guy and making him sound like he doesn't know what he's talking about. Dr Mike FTW

[@ronniefelice2033]

I think Joel was shook. Some of his answers were a lot of doublespeak.

[@az2252]

"word soup "... says so much but means so little

[@brian1575]

While I do agree with you and I even disagree with Joel’s philosophy…in Joel’s defense he was put on the spot with no heads up or prep work

[@Omally226]

@@brian1575 it's his area of expertise.

[@brian1575]

@@Omally226 yea man I agree

[@ghfjfghjasdfasdf]

Word Salad

[@kingasif9265]

This felt like a job interview and Joel didn't get the job lol 😂😂😂

[@santyx_eorrr]

His reasoning for using 90 degree joint angles as full ROM is because he once had an athlete that couldnt go beyond 90 without pain? Was that his argument he presented?

[@ethank-l4930]

yeah pretty much thinks all should do 90 because of risk of injury.

[@jesmondo5785]

Circular reasoning at it's finest. This happens a lot when people base their idea off of an anecdote 😂😂

[@JackAlderton]

No, it wasn't

[@jangobango2847]

​@@JackAlderton what was it then

[@charlesallen897]

@@jangobango2847 and Jack goes quiet. lol

[@captainthunderbolt7541]

"You're always very civil", Joel Seedman replied furtively, as he crossed his fingers that saying this would prompt Mike to go easy on him.

[@violentpatience3164]

I'm only 10 minutes in and it is absolutely irritating listening to Joel's responses... To someone who has personally dedicated their life to this profession, it is infuriating to witness this man explain his shallow argument by simply repeating the words "pain, safety, and inflammation."

[@2haiti]

Especially considering he has no evidence aside from his own experience (aka bias) to back his claims. Sounds like his clients like the 90° Eccentric-isometric BS because he has nocebo'd them into believing thier bodies are that frail... Qb: needs to regularly horizontally abduct/ externally rotate etc. To go to extreme end ranges with control and the ability producing force Seedmeme: yeah bro, only 90° .... It's all you need... 🤡

[@cmill6731]

You got all the way to 10 minutes?!?!

[@grapograc]

I haven’t heard a bigger charlatan than this clown in quite some time. He’s just spewing BS repeating various scientific words without saying anything deeper than barely surface level. God it’s infuriating listening to him.

[@abisheks2418]

It was painful to watch Joel talk. Everytime he’s questioned on Instagram, he points to his own work as a reference or citation and passes it off as a form of evidence. Here he just mumbled something incoherently and did not cite his work even once. This just shows how confident he is in his own work in front of his peers. Regarding the 90* nonsense, he didn’t define what’s too much stretch and talked in relatives rather than absolutes. No evidence or citation here to back his ‘too much stretch’ claim. Further, his reasoning when questioned on this, was a mindless extrapolation on an edge case/ special circumstance when an athlete is hurt. Finally, there’s no evidence that going beyond 90* in the bench press inherently puts one at a greater risk of injury. This guy, who is a an attention craving social media nutjob, is a colossal waste of time!

[@joekekker1581]

I noticed this. All of his "science" became anecdotal very quickly

[@abisheks2418]

@@joekekker1581 and it’s all too well known that anecdotal evidence ranks pretty low in the hierarchy of evidence.

[@jdata]

You know what all that means, right? It means he's actually not a complete moron as he portrays on social media. He does that garbage for the clicks, the views, and his shit goes viral and he makes bank. Meanwhile he seems a lot more reasonable in person while working with clients. I'm sure he's alright coach, there are much better folks out there, but if you hired him he wouldn't have trying to flap your arms like a bird. At least not while the cameras are off.

[@joekekker1581]

@@jdata the only part that backs this is where he says that 80% of what he does is "normal" training. But we know that this training is still done using his 90° eccentric isometrics, meaning even his core training is based off of flawed protocols that he knows full well aren't backed by real science. He may be more grounded irl, but he still thinks he's right.

[@jdata]

@@joekekker1581 agreed. The man has made a highly successful business out of this utter BS. After a while anyone would fall into their own delusions.

[@megacrosbie]

Mark with a mustache and hair looks badass. He looks like a jacked drill Sargent

[@shadymilkman443]

Got an Omni-Man thing going on

[@REVIVALFitness]

Hold up... that’s actually him? I thought they got a guest host

[@PhiyackYuh]

He looks so damn in shape for his age. Is he natty or in a cycle? Solid af though.

[@ivang8805]

@@PhiyackYuh he's probably on TRT bro

[@davidhancock460]

I personally think he looks like Lee majors

[@legolasgrof]

Lol seedyman was psychologically on the defensive for sure. The amount of hesitancy and uncertainty in his voice shows he knows he's full of shit. Mike was extremely professional.

[@matthewg4882]

When you’re wrong you have to make stuff up rather than just describe facts. Constantly having to make stuff up and have it sound like more than just a bs opinion is difficult.

[@legolasgrof]

@@matthewg4882 have you noticed how much technical jargon he uses in his instagram posts? You are absolutely correct.

[@AlyxFaust]

Sometimes the most full of shit person is full of confidence and vigor in what they have to say, so this isn’t always necessarily the case.

[@charlesallen897]

Mike owned him without pointing it out. Mike knew those who know would see those cracks.

[@legolasgrof]

Mike was really holding back. He could verbally tear seedyman to pieces if he wanted. 😂 I cant believe that Joel has any credibility with his outlandish ideas. Lol take a shot everytime this clown says "inflammation".

[@andremoreiragraca]

damn now I'm drunk

[@doryfishie2]

Mike could do that. But then there would be people(idiots) in the comments calling him a bully. That happened during the Greg Doucette debate.

[@MarkBellsPowerProject]

Here... We... Go

[@MikeHawk04]

Seedman really does not have a clue on what he’s doing. He’s talking about a shoulder injury limiting an athlete’s range of motion, so instead of fixing the problem, he puts a Band-Aid over it. I tore my labrum and popped my AC joint, so all I did was work on my mobility and rotator cuff strengthening. Also, my wingspan is longer than my height, but yet here I am post surgery going full range of motion on my barbell bench press and putting up more weight than ever before. Seedman is the epitome of taking the path of least resistance when it comes to training. Be better.

[@benaskrensintellect332]

Path of least resistance and balance lmao

[@johntrains1317]

My arms are longer than my height too! I'm 5'11 w a 6 foot wingspan. Long limb boys unite!

[@charlesallen897]

He knows what he is doing. Its pandering to those who want excuses. It is simply addressing the true science and accepting the long journey. Seedman just wants peoples money quickly and to give them belief they do not need to invest in the journey.

[@SHADOWCLOUDGAMING]

Joel in this segment vs Joel when he is in his element and surrounded by "yes men" is shocking.

[@jakeschmidt357]

What an academic onslaught. “So do you consider your training methods therapeutic and not ergogenic then?” 💀💀💀

[@GVS]

Devastating

[@billybadass7718]

That’s intellectually walking someone into a corner.

[@tasmaneric1887]

Loved this question from Mike?

[@ghfjfghjasdfasdf]

“Fatality Sub Zero wins”

[@etiblmca9267]

I'd say Joel's exercises are egocentric as the crazier they are no matter how dangerous or stupid, they will get more views thus growing his ego.

[@Debizzle]

I’m finishing my kinesiology undergrad rn and this 90° thing has me punching the walls

[@alanrastelli]

As long as you don't load up your punches past 90°, you'll be fine.

[@mmccrownus2406]

Make sure you don't learn anything after your degree and you'll be a big success.

[@DrMr-nb5ki]

Calm down kyle

[@ZombieLincoln666]

I check for studs before punching drywall FYI

[@rancen6]

Mike is such a professional its insane

[@buckhockey14]

If anyone has seen trailer park boys, Joel’s explanations sound like Ricky trailing to bail Julian out of court

[@lilbopeep6059]

He’s hoping it will all just be water under the fridge

[@ghfjfghjasdfasdf]

Damn, I can’t think of any Rickyisms off the top of my head.... love that show though ❤️😆

[@tehfuqizg0inon588]

don't wanna say I towdoso but I fucking towdoso

[@adrienwatson2179]

Like getting 2 birds stoned at once

[@jessejordan8116]

Joel’s version of science: Tell a story about what someone said, then generalise into an absolutely rigid doctrine. Legit!!

[@LindsayAdam447]

“Yeah, mostly I just do highly unathletic jiu jitsu and body which is entirely unathletic” Less than 2 min in and Mike’s already trolling, and it goes right over Seedman’s head. 😂

[@ergosi69]

Classy Mike

[@mikeblxde4735]

I don't think he was trolling there, he's just saying that he's not super athletic when doing jiu jitsu, and I would agree bodybuilding is in fact not really "athletic."

[@WilliamsWrestlin]

@@mikeblxde4735 nah he had sas in his tone

[@mikeblxde4735]

@@WilliamsWrestlin There's enough sass going on around Joel Seedman rn, I think everyone knows he's a hack, so Mike seemed pretty gracious and reasonable in this interview imo.

[@bigbastard_lol]

Trolling? Bodybuilding requires 0 athleticism. He's being funny while being truthful.

[@bmook019]

He's clearly using the fact he trains an NFL quarterback to make himself feel validated. No actual reasoning or science. It's a one person sample size.

[@XXLRebel]

"Yeah, but my guy has this and this problem with his shoulder so I'm gonna base my whole training filosophy on a genetic elite quarterback with shoulderissues I can't figure out how to fix"

[@MrYodeezy]

He trains several ACTIVE professional athletes. He was using that example because the question was about that specific video’s movement.

[@bmook019]

@@MrYodeezy that doesn't validate his training philosophy. He's taking already gifted athletes to make himself look better.

[@MrYodeezy]

@@bmook019 No. I could tell you don’t watch his stuff. A lot of the athletes aren’t professional and some of em look older than 50 years old. He works with athletes and makes their movement patterns better.

[@bmook019]

@@MrYodeezy based off of what evidence? How are his movements and keeping everything at a partial ROM better than the basic fundamental movements?

[@andrewdocherty1370]

“I totally understand. Yeah, having a big following is important” Dr Mike sneaking in all sorts of jabs at Seedman.

[@bigbastard_lol]

That's not a jab. He's being truthful.

[@voightkampffchamp]

@@bigbastard_lol What does a jab mean to you?

[@bigbastard_lol]

@@voightkampffchamp a jab in a verbal context would entail something disparaging and or slanderous

[@Raptor44256]

Mark looks like he’s filming the live action invincible pilot.

[@jamesdjl4359]

I love it.

[@DaRealBenRichards]

Joel should've been a lawyer. Talked for 20 mins without saying anything

[@zenithperformancefitness6897]

I think you mean politician.

[@michaelbishop9157]

that's actually pretty offensive to us lawyers. Dr Mike would have actually been good

[@Harry-rr4km]

Pectoral muscles won't be able to stretch any further than when your elbows are at 90 degrees wtf, who believes this guy man 😂

[@benjaminbaker4216]

I mean people think the earth is flat... You can sell anything these days.

[@Jmnp08]

He's almost correct. At around 90 degrees the stretch inhibition reflex disengages pecs and the connective tissues and small rotator muscles absorb this energy and it can cause issues for some people

[@Harry-rr4km]

This guy just makes outlandish claims for attention and the when question says, ooo I actually don't do that that much, or this only applies to a specific situation or "there's evidence for and against" without actually referring to any evidence

[@UnhumanNewman]

He’s an absolute charlatan and it’s strange that Mark had him on, unless it was to just call him out. Glad they put him up against Mike because it just made him seem even more of a snake oil salesman

[@HTXatLarge]

He's Complete troll for fame

[@jarettmeyer4929]

Wow! Kudos to Mr.Seedman! Wouldn’t have ever guessed he would agree to such a talk. Though I don’t see him saying many coherent things. In my sport of ice hockey I have seen many, many players who can’t come close to touching their toes or do a full squat. Most of them always had hip issues, hamstring issues, and groin issues. Loading full range of motion has helped me never get injured

[@tboland728]

I'm a simple man when it says Mike Israetel and debates in the title, I click

[@adriansanders5638]

Special guest host: Omni-man

[@DamaniJones]

Lol

[@intensity.density2208]

Recently a study came out showing that full range of motion produced better hypertrophy results. Gradually getting stronger in the extremes is what prevents injury. It takes time, slow progression.

[@lanceneuscheler7141]

Truly a masterclass in asking questions and letting seedman make himself sound silly. All the research tossed in his face regarding gains through full ROM and his response is that >90 is "over stretching" 😂 who in their right mind thinks that anything past roughly 50% ROM is over stretched?

[@Wildkoala1]

Watching Dr. Mike hold back during this “debate” was like when a basketball team is up by like 40 points with 1 minute left in the 4th quarter, they steal the ball and they pass it to a wide open guy and instead of slam dunking the ball, they just lay it up and in

[@FastingFTW]

I have been seeing his posts on Instagram for a while. He has his clients actually un-rack the weight for a squat and walk it out forward and then they re-rack it backwards. When I asked him about this because obviously this is incorrect he said "These are high performance athletes". He will get his clients hurt, not if but when. He literally just saying the opposite of what everyone else is saying. He has Million Dollar athletes leaving their good trainers to go to him. It is wild to see.

[@REVIVALFitness]

He also has them lift on hardwood in socks, which seems like a huge liability

[@jessepolanco6035]

Dont be so nice he doesn’t have a “clinical practice experience” and is not in the business of rehabilitation. He has a research doctorate not a clinical doctorate.

[@TheGaragelifter]

Marks stash adds at least 20 pounds of muscle to his frame. Love the shirt too. I think I'm turning.

[@kyleadler9082]

14:53 Mike: Science has proven that muscle density is greater in full ROM than 90. Joel: Nope

[@reginaldhansbrough8726]

Always a complete delight to see Dr. Mike providing insights.

[@nicholasbaker2904]

Ive had lower back issues for years since my time in the military. Deep stretching slow squats has been one of the most helpful exercises to increase my quality of life. "There is too much stress" i think high level practitioners of yoga would argue that point.

[@austinpenna]

I love the body language of the quiet hosts every time he answers lmao

[@ggillo5124]

Take a shot every time Joel says inflamed or inflammation

[@od3615]

Or optimal

[@ryanthompson3446]

Yes this is what this channel needs to make regularly is form technique and training style debates.

[@GabrielBabuch]

My layman's takedown starting from when Seedman starts arguing: 10:51 Wow, so you're telling me a great way to get good at a sport is by practicing this sport? I had no idea. I guess football players should just not work out anymore and should just practice football instead 13:00 Uh, of course you're going to get some inflammation from working out, you're ripping your muscles. That's why you let them recover/do things to optimize blood flow. You can't argue that doing F-ROM will give you inflammation because you're doing F-ROM, that's a tautology 13:08 According to whom do we have poorer ROM than in the past? Seriously, do you provide any evidence ever? 13:16 Just because they did them in the past doesn't mean they weren't getting injured or getting more injured. We now have MRIs, clinical research, and advanced training. Why would people be getting more injured now than in the past, proportionally? 14:36 So you're not opposed to stretch, you're just opposed to excessive stretch… which is?! Seriously, the argument once again boils down to "F-ROM is bad because it's excessive because it's F-ROM" 15:24 Oh, so people doing bench should properly position their shoulders and do F-ROM. Glad we cleared that up. What do you think it's called when you can't stretch any further, buddy? 15:42 No kidding, we shouldn't stretch until the muscles rip off the bone? We should find a happy medium? I wonder what that is… Oh, it's called stretching until it's no longer comfortable, aka F-ROM 15:48 WHY IS 90º THE BALANCED POINT. WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE. SHOW MEEEE 19:08 So you admit that someone who can bench 500 is impressive, as is someone who can bench less unstably. How do you think someone gains the ability to bench more most effectively? By continually benching unstably, or by benching stably and then using those skills to deload and bench without stability? 20:14 So you think making your athletes do some BS movement is more impressive than them squatting really heavy or doing impressive stable work? Look at any of these viral TikTok athletes, e.g. Lean Beef Patty etc. They're popular because they're attractive and can carry things that are heavy and make it look good. People are often dumb (and TikTok definitely caters toward that), but they're not dumb enough to be more impressed by some bamboo stick squat than an 800 lb squat 20:25 Here's how you get people to become interested in your training methods: post proof of your athletes' strength progressing 21:06 Who's actually excited about squatting a bamboo stick with their eyes closed while some guy runs behind them pushing weights on slings back and forth like some demonic monkey? 21:52 Wait, your athletes are only able to balance properly once every couple of years? What does that say about you as a trainer? 22:16 "Ooga Booga functional training bad." Dude, that's everything you seem to do. Plus, what you're doing isn't even functional training, because what's the function it's training for? Carrying sacks of rice awkwardly? 22:29 You still haven't explained why "90º" (because it's really more like 135º) is better than F-ROM to Dr. Israetel 23:26 He's not a savage for taking this on, because he not once made an argument backed by anything. In fact, definitionally, he never once made an argument, that is, a conclusion with premises backing it.

[@BruceWillow]

This is confirmation on his lack of knowledge and totally unsupported claims.

[@lipscantgo]

As soon as he started talking "maximal cross-bridging" and motor unit recruitment taking stress off the joints, the bullshit detector went off the charts.

[@vipersg123]

Hm.. so training full ROM is only applicable while practicing your sport because somehow The unpredictable immeasurable load and tension in that setting is less damaging than say a more controlled scenario that is predictable and can be specifically loaded to their ability is MORE damaging. Oh yeah and we’ll they didn’t train back before the fitness industry so yeah and that means it’s bad in your training like yeah... holy hell. I knew the guy was a hack but this is just embarrassing. I just kind of feel gross after watching this

[@im_reyz8780]

Athletes should train in range of motion they use in their sport. So 90° squats or quarter squats is more specific for most athletes..

[@doryfishie2]

@@im_reyz8780 Complete BS. Strength and hypertrophy training in the gym is for overall strength. Nothing about that has to be sport specific. Deadlifts are not sport specific to MMA either, but anyone who works towards a big deadlift will improve their sports performance significantly. Strength training in the gym is mostly off season work. It's for general preparedness. Their actual sport practice has to be sport specific, which is nothing like lifting weights in the gym. edit: Another example. C&J. Every coach and their mom adds in the big power moves despite them not being at all specific to most sports movements.

[@user-ig8vm1ns4t]

It’s insane that he actually has people that agree with him. Seen so many defend his methods on every social platform. ATG squats for life.

[@zionlw11]

Seedman somehow answers every one of Mikes questions without even answering the **actual** question

[@XXLRebel]

This guy actually said your joints, ligaments and muscles get stronger and better protected for injuries that might occur in "extreme" ranges of when you don't prepare them by strengthening & conditioning that part of the range of motion but rather by overloading a different part of the range of motion. Thanks for showing everyone your knowledge. I will definitely read the article now👍

[@JackAlderton]

Did you watch the full video?

[@zenathletic]

Mike is playing chess while Joel is cheating, and losing at checkers

[@ryder6070]

Way to go Mark and Mike for making this one happen, well executed

[@tristankomara5284]

Just started watching Dr. Mike recently and I can’t explain how happy I am that I’ve changed my training style around his principles. I have had to lighten the weight significantly but I’m able to go through the full ROM on all of my exercises with a controlled eccentric and I’m actually getting sore again and my joints don’t hurt anymore. Stretching your muscle maximally doesn’t sound safe but it’s been the only way I’ve trained and felt the lifting purely in the targeted muscles and not all of the connective tissue with the inflammation and stuff.

[@harvestblades]

good info! Definitely agree that I think there is benefit in being able to safely create tension in as wide a range of movement as possible. As Mike said in referring to BJJ & this applies to grappling & MMA in general you don't have the option of always being in the most optimal position so having strength & mobility in weird positions makes sense & can save you from injury.

[@shinespark24]

Mike demolished him in the kindest way possible.

[@Jimminityjabooboo]

Refined

[@samuelspagna1841]

Love Dr. Mike!! He definitely held back here and could have made this guy look worse than he already did. Joel does know that inflammation is a very necessary part of training right? 🤣

[@TOShorts]

TLDW: Mike: The scientific literature indicates that your XYZ claim is not the case, what do you think? Joel: I don't disagree with the literature, but this is why I think my specific theory trumps the science. 🤔

[@bengamble808]

What's funny about Seedman saying he would have an athlete that can do "both" the unstable light version and the heavier stable version, is that one of the studies on partial ROM vs. full ROM indicates specifically that people who trained full ROM got stronger at partial ROM than the group that trained with partial ROM. If he really wanted both, he would train partial ROM, but he clearly doesn't want that. I get it, it's hard to market simplicity but there are enough gullible people out there to buy into it.

[@aldrichgerlach2003]

Why did you mention unstable vs stable and then went on to cite a study about partial ROM vs full ROM. That made no sense at all.

[@im_reyz8780]

That doesn't make any sens what you said. That's literally specificity 101, if you train quarter squats, you get better at quarter squats and movements that involve quarter squats (jumping..). Full range of motion squats is worst for getting better at quarter squatting...

[@spencershipley4349]

@@im_reyz8780 the data absolutely disagrees with you. Training max 1/4 squats ends up becomimg a spinal load test (no bueno). To get strong in the 1/4 range, you're better off doing full squats with chains attached (or bands) and Poliquin step ups.

[@zachroberts6180]

Mark, Can you consider bringing on Ivan, the squat every day guy? He’s got a medical background and more importantly over 600 days of squatting daily.(200kg max currently)

[@aljackson5598]

Couldn’t agree more. His max is 210 btw

[@kristsostad7571]

Day 666 now😳

[@LowBackPain94]

210 kg after that many days? He couldve gotten that with better programming...

[@kristsostad7571]

@@LowBackPain94 what not to do: see a number without knowing context (weight, lift style, goals, etc) and make a judgement.

[@LowBackPain94]

@@kristsostad7571 lol yeah? The whole point is to get stronger faster. You should be able to squat 400 lbs within a year of squatting with good programming

[@nosho409]

I think Seedman is actually a lawyer and a politician. He sure doesn't sound like he's much into science.

[@tinglewolfasmr7548]

I love when he says, "I think there are certain positions, especially when you start loading it, where, um, I would say that going too far beyond 90 is not as optimal, but, you know, there are probably scenarios where people go passed that and they would be just fine." Probably close to 100% of people who work out go passed a 90° joint angles in movements, and none of them have issues (me included). The last part of that comment, he implies that every person on Earth is unable to go passed 90 without getting injured. Like he is trying to say going passed 90 is somehow not the norm and would be shocking to see people do an Exercise where they go beyond 90°. Stopping at 90° is Impractical in sports because more often than not, you find yourself in various positions that require you to use the total range of motion that your body allows you to go into. Arguably, stopping at 90° consistently could be detrimental to overall sport/athletic performance.

[@JackAlderton]

"Probably close to 100% of people who work out go passed a 90° joint angles in movements, and none of them have issues (me included)." That's just an absurdly wrong statement and assumption. The vast majority of gym-goes have/had issues, and it's very reasonable training beyond 90 is a factor.

[@natev9022]

But they develop problems because they never develop strength past 90° right? Take benching for example, shoulder issues develop with lifters who “ego lift” and bounce the bar off their chest, before developing the strength they need in that end range to properly do the lift. If Dr. Mike’s and KOT guys principles of slowly and safely developing strength at full ROM, I would guess very few of those issues you speak of would develop. But you will have to find someone more qualified than me to get you data to support that.

[@contentcop]

watching mark trying to stay quiet during this, slowly crushing the life out of that little vial, was AMAZING

[@rislingpodiumperformance]

Mike: "you say this but the science actually says this, what do you think about that" Seed: "uhh 90 uhh I'm not opposed, uhh ya" Mike thank you for this intellectual smackdown

[@nicolaskeith8872]

try and go to Seedman's IG page and watch some of his videos. almost every one of them has the 90-degree mantra, but in *NONE* of them, he actually *HITS* 90 degrees. he literally stops the movement far above 90 degrees. it's almost difficult to discern whether this is parody or real life.

[@illestdomer2005]

His answer is always that the tibial inclination makes it 90 degrees even though the femur is not parallel with the floor (squat), but I agree that it still looks like a ways from 90. Regardless, those half squats are what I used to do when I had no mobility rather than just poor mobility now 🤣😢

[@gavinsapp564]

I totally disagree with seedman, but he's talking about joint angle. A parallel femur breaks 90 by a good bit. 90 is going to be above parallel.

[@philipmcauley]

Seedman should make an article about how he got dismantled by Mike Israetel. I’d definitely READ THE ARTICLE.

[@NickJennison]

I wonder if the QB with the separated shoulder was experiencing pain beyond 90deg because his “coach” kept telling him that going “beyond 90” was harmful. Perception of threat can lead to pain. Nocebo can lead to pain.

[@doomdogg5766]

Hey Mark, dig the Ron Jeremy stache bruh! Great content

[@5dollarshake263]

Dr Joel Seedman is a genius and I love what he's saying. Does anyone know where I can buy the snake oil that he's selling? I'm also praying he sells duck eggs.

[@NissanZaxima]

I’ll send you my Venmo. Just send the money to me and I promise I will get it into the right hands!

[@ethanchaney1139]

-Dr Mike “I wrestled, I do Jiu Jitsu, I’ve trained athletes, and I do entirely unathletic body building.” -Silly Joel *everything said flies over his head “Nice nice, anyways…”

[@Sean-fz1zg]

I couldn't get through it all, love Dr Mike and his content and he was handling that as diplomatic as he could, Joel just sounds like a used car salesman

[@theashanator5486]

Dr. Mike Israetel…a beacon of logic, reason, and SCIENCE! Aside from his moments in this video, the rest was absolutely maddening.

[@jonathanziegler8126]

Debate, it seems like a respectful discussion. Such a strange occurrance in our modern world.

[@KennethLeeAtLGA]

MarkBell straight looking like a special ops guy rocking the stach!

[@Ryan-bq1sk]

If I want to learn more about muscle growth, I am pretty sure I’ll go with Dr. Mike than “Dr” Joel 🤣🤣

[@Daim_0nic]

“Kneesovertoesguy and I agree on a lot more then we disagree on” 😂😂😂😂

[@ccgmail8025]

thanks to the podcast dudes for letting them talking and not interrupting their extended responses

[@danbaseley5268]

18:32 "You're analaysing it way deeper and more scientifically than most people do" - unlike, say, Dr Joel Seedman.

[@GVS]

This is extremely embarrassing.

[@IndigoBass]

Knew I’d see you here 🤣🤣🤣

[@GVS]

@@IndigoBass Will do a full video on this situation as I think the marketing/social media side of it is something most people don't think about, but is very important! He straight up admitted that his entire social media page is just for attention. That as well as dodging all the questions. A poor showing.

[@LUKA_911]

Didn't expect to see you here! I love your stuff btw

[@Soccasteve]

I'm loving Mark's gnarly mustache lol he actually pulls it off.

[@jaghall47]

9:03 "rhetorical advertising" is what I'm dubbing this classic mark bell line. Was expecting him to start saying "strength is never a weakness" and cut the video there lol

[@afnanbogey]

Respect to Joel for coming on and explaining himself. I follow him on Insta out of curiosity so not hating. But having said that, I dont think he’s supported himself well from how much I’ve watched so far. Questionable (and sounds partly intentional) misrepresentation on social media, dubious rationale on some athletic points, needless ‘innovation’. Same concerns as I had previous went inadequately addressed.

[@obilifts3319]

Man might start making my own wacky workouts to make this bread

[@TheeBullCo]

Man, I glanced at the photo and thought “ hmmm they’ve replaced make with a buff cop.” Lol

[@tomatosauce605]

‘Cya later pumpkin head’ in the last second of the vid killed me off 🤣

[@TheDecado316]

Mike asks a question. Joel: mumble mumble obfuscation mumble

[@Gallagher.661]

Pretty much confirms everything that everyone has been thinking lol. Once he started talking about athletes and range of motion it just fell apart

[@RetroRanter]

2 years late and sent here by Dr Mike's channel while um watching his critique videos and WOW..Mark looks like Ravashing Rick Rude here, awesome look sir. 😎

[@nbarealtalker]

I actually agree with Seedman about how a loaded ROM vs an unloaded/light ROM is not the same. I think athletes should still train moves in a full ROM but don’t need to ditch box squats or floor presses etc because they’re working on explosiveness. As long as they warm up or do some mobility work in those more extreme ranges, it’s counterintuitive to insist on fuller ROM because it doesn’t inherently speak directly to their training stimulus goals and only steps further away from their specificity. Long story short, an athlete will NEVER push someone in any pattern that replicates a flat, arched and heavily loaded bench press. They probably won’t push someone identically to a floor press or single arm DB press either. But it’s a hell of a lot closer. What would interest me is the rate of injury of Seedman’s clients. Everyone has different variables but if he had a roster of athletes that got dramatically less injured, or at least no greater injury rate, surely that could speak to the validity of his stance.

[@Improveathletics]

Strength is gained n the range it is trained. Short range can be used to prepare for long range but we gotta hit long range If we want to get better at long range.

[@1234Cheesus]

This guy has been trying to reinvent the wheel…….. a square one

[@brendanmooney4452]

Why have I only just come across this now!!

[@robbin8300]

This is more like a cross-examination than a debate.