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MBPP EP. 722 - How To Transition Into Barefoot Shoes

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Mark Bell's Power Project

Mark Bell's Power Project

Күн бұрын

Today we are talking all about the benefits we've experience wearing minimalist barefoot shoes. An issue that can occur is people experience extreme discomfort when switching over from soft cushy shoes. This will help you transition over to barefoot shoes.
Our favorite toe socks: amzn.to/3KeFINe
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Stamps:
0:00 - Intro
1:04 - markbellslingshot.com code PowerProject10 to get 10% off!
1:52 - Problem with Nsima's Feet.
8:07 - Build an Arch.
10:50 - Mark's take on how to fix your feet?
15:22 - Which shoes to wear & why?
20:00 - About Toe Socks
23:33 - Way of Walking.
26:05 - vivobarefoot.com code PowerProject to get 20% off!
26:33 - Taking off shoes to fix your feet.
31:29 - Is it a good idea to wear Vivo barefoot shoes at Disneyland?
35:38 - Andrew's take on how barefoot shoes have helped & strengthen his feet.
37:55 - Head over foot movement - WeckMethod.
42:19 - Isometric exercise.
46:45 - Nsima shows how to flex the calf.
51:21 - Relation between Science & Stretching.
54:44 - Quick Recap.
58:45 - Like, Share, Subscribe, Comment & Follow the podcast.
59:37 - Outro.
#Barefootshoes #VivoBarefoot
#PowerProject #Podcast #MarkBell

Пікірлер: 125
@aleccostello2271
@aleccostello2271 2 жыл бұрын
24 years old here and have been wearing Vivobarefoot for around 3 years now. The first month walking and running, I could definitely feel muscles in my legs, feet, and thighs that were never quite worked before in "normal shoes". After pushing through and easing into the Vivo's, wearing Vans or anything else extremely hurt my feet after a hour or so of being squished up! My agility, sprint speed, distance running, and the way my toes hit the ground have all completely changed! Vivo's let me feel more free to the feel of the ground either on the trails or everyday movements, and I definitely want to glide or sprint from point A-B everywhere I go lol
@drewswomley7787
@drewswomley7787 2 жыл бұрын
can you elaborate on how they've improved your distance running?
@aleccostello2271
@aleccostello2271 2 жыл бұрын
@@drewswomley7787 Sure, I'll do my best! The Vivo's zero drop, wide toe box, and minimalist structure makes it easier to bounce off of your big-foot and tiptoes because you can actually feel the ground beneath your feet. Running becomes less strenuous, and more so of a glide through each bounce off of my toes. It's much easier to stride and glide off your toe bounces than repeatedly landing flat-footed with no feeling of the ground underneath you with "normal" shoes. You can feel how your feet want to respond. It's hard to explain if you haven't felt minimalist foot wear before. I did 10.09mil in 01hrs and 34sec in my Vivo's this past weekend. I never got tired or strained once during or the day after my run. They've improved my feet, leg, and thigh strength over the past 3 years immensely!
@mrceresa1
@mrceresa1 2 жыл бұрын
@@aleccostello2271 how much has vivo paid you?
@aleccostello2271
@aleccostello2271 2 жыл бұрын
@@mrceresa1 LOL a big fat $0, I've sure given some cash to them in the past though. I'm just happy to see minimalist shoes finally catching on!
@migueltrujillo341
@migueltrujillo341 2 жыл бұрын
Which ones do u wear? I have the primus lite 3
@stephenpierre6643
@stephenpierre6643 2 жыл бұрын
25:00 I used to work at a gas station when I was younger. All of the taxi drivers had their right foot externally rotated while they were walking. I think it is because they were driving so much that their right foot had become stuck in that position. ( When you drive the right foot is externally rotated towards the gas pedal ). Now I can tell by the way a person walks if they drive for a living.
@ianonbass
@ianonbass 2 жыл бұрын
To Ensimas first point. Ive just come from a soccer pick up game but have been training in barefoot shoes for 2 years to rehab a meniscus tear on both knees and slight tearing of the acl from a bad foul. Those Nikes hurt too much o the toes now that I sprint much harder. Id love to play again but its not possible to get barefoot style cleats.
@anthonyhaga7559
@anthonyhaga7559 2 жыл бұрын
I just got my first pair of vivo shoes, and I love them so far. I only wish they made steal toe versions for us who work in factories. Cheers!
@ben6595
@ben6595 2 жыл бұрын
Dude, was legit thinking this today. I'm looking at getting some but not sure it's worth it given I'm in work boots 10 hours of the day.
@DontListenToMe69
@DontListenToMe69 2 жыл бұрын
I was lucky enough to snag some of the Birkenstock barefoot steel toes. They are worth every penny. I wish there were more options as well
@ianonbass
@ianonbass 2 жыл бұрын
Tried those Birkenstocks. Not wide enough on your current size, it squeezes the pinky toe ever so slightly that its annoying to wear. Buy one size bigger maybe it helps.
@believeinjesus8300
@believeinjesus8300 Жыл бұрын
@@DontListenToMe69 where did you purchase them and did you have any issues with buying them. I need some of thoes boots
@DontListenToMe69
@DontListenToMe69 Жыл бұрын
@@believeinjesus8300 it was a pain sourcing them, and then when I did the sizing was off and return shipping to Germany would have been $300. After a resell on eBay and finding another source, I’d say it was all worth it. I have a 27cm foot and had to go up a size from what my actual length was.
@dw5523
@dw5523 2 жыл бұрын
Fantastic show. 40 years old and just started dealing with all the issues you guys discusses - foot & ankle strength, balance, coordination, being light on my feet. Such a helpful conversation. David Weck up next.
@tonygicz8
@tonygicz8 2 жыл бұрын
I really like the fact that you guys stand up on your podcast. I have a habit of standing up as well if I sit too long it doesn't feel right, my body doesn't like it so the majority of the day im standing up.
@aaronhigdon952
@aaronhigdon952 2 жыл бұрын
Since you started talking about barefoot shoes and getting put of your shoes u have been walking my dogs everyday barefoot. I love the feeling and have just ordered a pair of barefoot shoes
@Voidrunner01
@Voidrunner01 2 жыл бұрын
Been in minimalist shoes since about 2009. What it does for your gait quality cannot be overstated, but people don't understand how much of a difference it actually makes until they've actually tried it for a while. I could not go back to "normal" shoes at this point.
@georgea6438
@georgea6438 2 жыл бұрын
Thanks for answering my Disney question! I just bought some vivos thanks to you guys and will use them sparingly before attacking Disney with them.
@rktyler3470
@rktyler3470 2 жыл бұрын
I jumped into barefoot running and minimal shoes about a decade ago when vibrams first hit the scene. You gotta build up to it. First thing I noticed after running in barefoot shoes is intense DOMS in calves because you are using them to stay on the ball of foot. I got up to five mile runs with them. You can still overdo it on tar or concrete. Best case scenario is running on dirt or earth totally barefoot and alternating shoes while on tar to build up the strength.
@7heAteles
@7heAteles 2 жыл бұрын
Crazy that this is just getting main stream when ive had 5fingers and vivobarefoots for over a decade. Great to see you two talking about the benefits
@MRBarton369
@MRBarton369 2 жыл бұрын
Got my newest pair of barefoot shoes thanks to this show. I’m ready to get back on the trail. Primus AW FG 2. Thank you fellas
@yovino4862
@yovino4862 11 ай бұрын
I spent 1yr walking barefoot and sandals at home before hiking around. 2yr hiking then 3yr began to do more field sports and the difference is amazing
@diamonddog2817
@diamonddog2817 9 күн бұрын
There are a few individual companies that focus on producing feet shaped soccer boots. Super cool innovation. Im an elite level player and im stoked to get running in them. The only downside is the cost, nearly as much as a flagship phone. I suppose if it’s a toss and turn between a phone (time wasting trap) and barefoot shoes (super strong feet). I think the easy option is the barefoot boot :)
@leviking9625
@leviking9625 2 жыл бұрын
For a several years myself I've been wear minimal drop shoes or boots as much as possible for working or walking around in. Usually converse or van for just daily walking to allow my feet and toes to move freely. I've always been curios about using a sandbox every day and just stepping in place for say 5-10 minutes to see the difference in my over feet long term
@zacwatermolenrn8701
@zacwatermolenrn8701 2 жыл бұрын
I contributed to selling out vivo shoes! Thanks for the great information and supplying us with a discount. Loving the content 👊
@herrmusling
@herrmusling 2 жыл бұрын
I love my altras! Rocking the superior 5 for terrain and escalante 2,5 for everyday usage. Love em
@teatowel11
@teatowel11 2 жыл бұрын
I've got escalante racers like they showed which are awesome for running on pavement. I cant run in my vivos for more than 3 miles or so on pavement yet.
@Gengh13
@Gengh13 2 жыл бұрын
When I first transitioned to barefoot shoes I had to stretch my calves, I guess decades of always using footwear with a slightly raised heels shortened my tendons.
@AdamTheBeard
@AdamTheBeard 2 жыл бұрын
Use vivo's full time now. The calfs and feet look crazy bigger n wider. Start finding new lines of muscle here and there every week. Cheers for the advice 👏
@TheMakki
@TheMakki 2 жыл бұрын
I have a pair of Speedo water shoes. Basically the same thing and they cost $20. Probably a good place to start before making such an investmen in these other shoes.
@oliver1367
@oliver1367 2 жыл бұрын
I'm wearing Vibram FiveFingers at the moment!
@jacklingenfelter7765
@jacklingenfelter7765 2 жыл бұрын
this is a staple podcast of mine, the power project is my fav
@tevitatuipulotu8287
@tevitatuipulotu8287 Жыл бұрын
About to get these Vivos. Look forward to seeing my progression in them. Keep up the great content - love from QlD Australia.
@thisdumb6710
@thisdumb6710 2 жыл бұрын
Bought $20 bodyglove water shoes working great
@Russellbuddy
@Russellbuddy 2 жыл бұрын
Great podcast as always. Thanks for the love!
@Mr.F1XIT
@Mr.F1XIT 2 жыл бұрын
Y’all are my hype song when I’m working out! 🤣
@kyleinwisc
@kyleinwisc 2 жыл бұрын
Love that this stuff is getting some attention. For the disneyland question guy, all day on concrete would do better with some padding. All day on carpet, the grass or in the woods is okay with barefoot. Concretes a different thing, it beats on your feet
@cthide
@cthide 2 жыл бұрын
All day on concrete in minimal shoes is doable…. Just not at first.
@Johnwick-07
@Johnwick-07 2 жыл бұрын
Check out foot training with Coach Chong Xie. His method of training is called hyperarch fascia training. He has trained MMA fighters.
@DanielDeMontreal
@DanielDeMontreal 2 жыл бұрын
Thanks for the recommendation. Will check him out.
@DanBarbatti
@DanBarbatti 2 жыл бұрын
Love Tom Platz .. bring him on !!1
@gregaustin8114
@gregaustin8114 Жыл бұрын
I’m in process of transitioning to vivobarefoot shoes from Hoka. I’m taking it slow, but wanna just jump in because they feel so good. I just hope my feet don’t get meatier or bigger like you’re talking about. I’m already a size 15!
@DiscipleSteven
@DiscipleSteven Жыл бұрын
Thanks guys! I really enjoyed this discussion. I always thought that I had great feet but then when I heard about barefoot shoes and things people can do with their toes I was like woah. haha I don't do a lot of running or play sports but I have started to walk more barefoot at home and exercise barefoot. I'm hoping to get some barefoot shoes very soon and focus on some stretching and exercises now for my toes. By just making a few changes I've noticed a huge difference already.
@reformedchinesecommunist
@reformedchinesecommunist Жыл бұрын
The reality is harsh. Our world operates on an economic system that for us reg folks means that we must provide disproportionately net positive value. Dream, but do not think that just because you manifest success or believe in yourself that you will automatically succeed. Ultimately these are excellent traits but you must provide genuine value in order to “get ahead” financially.
@ScottGlisson74
@ScottGlisson74 2 жыл бұрын
I have Altra's, vivos, and xero shoes. love them all for different reasons.
@TheEnvelopeOZ
@TheEnvelopeOZ 2 жыл бұрын
Fascinating conversation!!
@kylemckinney_22
@kylemckinney_22 2 жыл бұрын
Switch to zero drop shoes before barefoot
@teatowel11
@teatowel11 2 жыл бұрын
My injinji socks got holes in the big toe on the first wear. Very disappointing
@schmolck
@schmolck 2 жыл бұрын
You are making a big mistake. If you "transition" to barefoot shoes they will allow you to run fast. You will have to be VERY carefull with your calves and you will make mistakes and it will be frustrating. If you run barefoot instead - through the woods - you will automatically run very very carefully and slowly and you will have the time of your life. Every step is a new sensation. Hot, cold, soft, grassy, greasy, rocky. It never gets boring, you will not care how fast you run, you will enjoy it like a child. You will look out for mud and puddles and smile because you can't wait to run through it. Running barefoot through the woods is so much fun, you have no idea what you are missing out on. As long as there was some rain in the last couple of days the ground will be soft enough to dampen your steps even if there are some rocks on top.
@Bryansahupala
@Bryansahupala 2 жыл бұрын
Steve Maxwell got a ton of information and excercises on isometrics. Nice have to have him on the podcast.
@hughdavies5209
@hughdavies5209 2 жыл бұрын
Yeah good shout. Haven't seen him on many podcasts lately
@viranjith
@viranjith 2 жыл бұрын
Xero shoes changed my life!
@mrceresa1
@mrceresa1 2 жыл бұрын
I just looked up Xero because I can’t find any vivos in black. Those Xero’s are ugly asl! They hold up well?
@viranjith
@viranjith 2 жыл бұрын
@@mrceresa1they look nice in person. they feel amazing and I've been wearing my HFS for more than a year. Only thing I did was replace the laces. The two souls are in good condition. They have a 5000 mile warranty.
@mrceresa1
@mrceresa1 2 жыл бұрын
@@viranjith thanks mate I’m going to cop a pair
@SerratusAnterior
@SerratusAnterior 2 жыл бұрын
that Isometric Nsima was talking about, sounds something like what Maxalding did
@jacobpeterson1165
@jacobpeterson1165 2 жыл бұрын
Yoga toes, or toes spreaders are great for walking around the house, or doing yoga, helping to splay out your toes
@Quickkill6658
@Quickkill6658 2 жыл бұрын
Maybe a business opportunity if nobody else is doing this already but 1) foot shaped cleats. Every cleat I’ve seen is very narrow toed. 2) foot shaped safety shoes.
@harliedalzell6773
@harliedalzell6773 2 жыл бұрын
U ain’t alone it’s probably a lack of market
@gc22696
@gc22696 2 жыл бұрын
And foot shaped cycling/mtb shoes !
@kyleinwisc
@kyleinwisc 2 жыл бұрын
New balance makes a wide foot cleat. only company that i could find
@gabegrinstead356
@gabegrinstead356 2 жыл бұрын
I'm 15 and have all sorts of issuses with si joint pain shoulder pain from rotaor cuffs and back my knees, elbows, wrists, ankles and neck hurt almost every single joint and it is so triggering going to doctor and recommending orthotics which have done nothing then fuck my feet up even more and what I think is the cause of my inner knee pain right where minicus is (not minicus). Also a common argument is even pro runners wear orthotics like thats basicaly a disadvantage and could they could probably be even better I expiermented with them before and now fully switching to some kind of barefoot shoe.
@rickzalewski2728
@rickzalewski2728 2 жыл бұрын
I see the benefits of minimalist wide toe box shoes, but what about running on concrete or tarmac surface?. Is the hard surface to stressful of the body?
@aleccostello2271
@aleccostello2271 2 жыл бұрын
From my 3 years of wearing Vivo's, you definitely need to adjust for a month or two before going hard in them. After that, it's smooth gliding from there!
@justinthorne8979
@justinthorne8979 2 жыл бұрын
you can also get wide toebox shoes, with zero drop (flat), but with a decent cushion. look at the brand Alltra
@MarkBellsPowerProject
@MarkBellsPowerProject 2 жыл бұрын
What they said
@jhoelscher93
@jhoelscher93 2 жыл бұрын
@@justinthorne8979 i can’t get alltra in canada. is there another brand you could recommend?
@varcity23
@varcity23 2 жыл бұрын
Try walking first for like 5-10 min in barefoot shoes, vibram five fingers or Vivobarefoot. And see how it feels. If there is no pain try walking longer. And increase from there.
@brianhyatt3930
@brianhyatt3930 2 жыл бұрын
My feet busted out of the sides on the primus. I’ve been using the Xero Prio and it’s made for wider feet.
@annifanni23
@annifanni23 Жыл бұрын
What about toe spreaders like correct toes? I have a bunion on my left foot only and it kills me
@TreyCarterJJ
@TreyCarterJJ 2 жыл бұрын
I have had turf toe in both feet for a long time. Really hoping these shoes help. Have never focused on my feet as an athlete. (I’m a full time Jiu jitsu athlete)
@bigdaddygucciabg836
@bigdaddygucciabg836 2 жыл бұрын
My ankle, shin, feet been hurting for years. I always wore socks and slides and shoes every waking moment. I been trying to not wear socks or shoes while home and my ankle and shin don’t hurt when I walk or run anymore 🤔
@jamesbrewer5111
@jamesbrewer5111 2 жыл бұрын
Would love some vivos but size 14s have NEVER been in stock when I’ve checked, I just said F it with them and Birks lol
@ianonbass
@ianonbass 2 жыл бұрын
Really need some safety shoes and soccer shoes in barefoot style.
@TheJustwM
@TheJustwM 2 жыл бұрын
Where can I find video of them talking how to walk barefoot ? Head over feet, rolling heel out in, etc… ?
@oliverbradley8755
@oliverbradley8755 2 жыл бұрын
For my feet, I prefer xero to vivo.
@mattthadd4663
@mattthadd4663 2 жыл бұрын
I suck at flexing me left calf. It’s embarrassing
@mcampos17
@mcampos17 2 жыл бұрын
Is there vivo barefoot work boots ?
@yovino4862
@yovino4862 11 ай бұрын
Some Vivobarefoot shoes wear out quickly
@migueltrujillo341
@migueltrujillo341 2 жыл бұрын
Idk man I like my vivos I have the primus lite 3 I just hate that sometimes they get uncomfortable the sides of my feet rub against them I think that’s why my calluses won’t go away but when I wear my ursus from bearfoot athletics I feel no pain or discomfort and both shoes are the same size I been wearing my vivos almost a year now
@AnUnhappyBusiness
@AnUnhappyBusiness 2 жыл бұрын
Better to go barefoot first and I am serious: your skin won’t allow you to go further than your skeletal and muscular development can go, this you’ll spare yourself other possible much more painful injuries by suffering through some blisters for a few months
@yangtroy1
@yangtroy1 2 жыл бұрын
Ive been using the vwell socks for a good min their str8 dont get the injinji they are too pricey, also had the primus lite 3 for a while their str8 too, just got the all weather trail 3 havent worn em yet
@guillem5986
@guillem5986 2 жыл бұрын
I use feiyue for the gym, but I combine it with orthodics (in other shoes of course) since I have claw toes... How would you guys approach minimalist shoes if you had this issue, any recommendations?
@Catalonia
@Catalonia Жыл бұрын
Ok so one question about the barefoot shoes, I get that you RUN on the balls of the feet, but do you still try to do this while just walking?? Seems like a goofy way to walk.
@XtianApi
@XtianApi Жыл бұрын
This problem is an epidemic. The feeling president needs to announce this to anyone who will listen.
@jhoelscher93
@jhoelscher93 2 жыл бұрын
best shoe for standing on feet all day? i am a butcher
@gymtuppernation4703
@gymtuppernation4703 2 жыл бұрын
What’s up with Kai Greenes feet? U guys seen them bad boys??
@EWOKakaDOOM
@EWOKakaDOOM 2 жыл бұрын
How are barefoot shoes supposed to fit? I have a decent amount of toe room in my vivo shoes
@MarkBellsPowerProject
@MarkBellsPowerProject 2 жыл бұрын
Sounds about right. I had to go a full size down in Vivos compared to normal shoes. -Andrew
@dylan-reynolds4187
@dylan-reynolds4187 Жыл бұрын
Can anyone give me the link to those wide toe box shoes they speak about at 34 mins in, the "Ultras". I can't seem to find them anywhere
@jesseschott2018
@jesseschott2018 Жыл бұрын
Altras if that helps
@teatowel11
@teatowel11 2 жыл бұрын
I've got the vivo primus trail and honestly they are a bit stiff. I wish i went for tge primus light shoes since i run on pavement a lot.
@landonp.4073
@landonp.4073 2 жыл бұрын
Bad idea to run on pavement with vivos anyway. Get some Altras for running on hard surfaces.
@keansy123
@keansy123 2 жыл бұрын
Would deadlift slippers be considered barefoot?
@ttytty6940
@ttytty6940 Жыл бұрын
It’s like doing karate
@mrceresa1
@mrceresa1 2 жыл бұрын
I need an all black pair man wtf where Dey at tho?
@GentleWarrior371
@GentleWarrior371 2 жыл бұрын
How can you tell what size vivo you are?
@laneervin730
@laneervin730 2 жыл бұрын
I have tried multiple times to buy vivos for the past 3 years. For some reason the website never accepts my debit card. I have gotten new debit cards and none work. I’ve emailed them to no avail. If there’s any way someone here in the comments or one of you great men on the show know what I can do to try to get them money for a pair of shoes. Many thanks in advance if anyone has some advice
@curanderoverde
@curanderoverde 2 жыл бұрын
Transitioning to barefoot = buy barefoot shoes and wear them
@SoulDuJour
@SoulDuJour 2 жыл бұрын
Does it have to be barefoot? I wear Saucony Iso Frees which aren't as minimalist as the suggestions but they have a relatively wide toe box and flexible sole. I'm also a gout sufferer so I had to pay attention to this a little sooner
@teatowel11
@teatowel11 2 жыл бұрын
I've got the vivo primus trail 2 shoes and honestly there is not that big of a difference between them and just getting some canvas shoes a size up and taking the insole out. Or you can just actually go bearfoot. As long as your shoes arent squishing your toes heaps, just strengthening your feet bearfoot for some of the day will still give you benefit
@jzhvy333
@jzhvy333 2 жыл бұрын
I keep getting plantar fascitis every time I wear barefoot shoes. I'm wearing orthotics to dull the pain. I'm starting to work on hyperarch training to strengthen the fascia. How should I approach this?
@AnUnhappyBusiness
@AnUnhappyBusiness 2 жыл бұрын
Walk barefoot carefully for short distances and build up: your skin won’t let you go further than your muscular and skeletal development are ready for
@georgea6438
@georgea6438 2 жыл бұрын
Just purchased some vivos today, thank you guys. Any suggestions on running shoes that are similar to vivos? Wide toe box/barefoot style?
@teatowel11
@teatowel11 2 жыл бұрын
Merrel trail glove is a good really minimalist shoe. The white and red show he showed is an escalante racer from Altra. They are super light and have a wide toe box and zero drop from the heel to toe. They still have some cushion though which make it more comfortable on the road but maybe let you get away with a heavy foot strike
@papacos4745
@papacos4745 2 жыл бұрын
Look up Lem's barefoot shoes. I have had the Lems primal for over a year now and will never go back to normal shoes. My calf's we're real stiff for the first week but went away and the second week. You do have to train yourself on how to run in barefoot shoes. Normal shoes people run with heel hitting the ground first but with barefoot shoes you should train to hit with the ball of your foot. It does feel weird at first but less impact on hip and knees
@Gengh13
@Gengh13 2 жыл бұрын
Xero shoes is another barefoot brand.
@gunsnposes.363
@gunsnposes.363 2 жыл бұрын
yeah...Tom Platz would be great!!
@itsTOEKNEE
@itsTOEKNEE 11 ай бұрын
Hi @MarkBellsPowerProject I just tried ordering the Vivobarefoot shoot but it doesnt look your your disctount code works. Is there any update referral code ?
@migueltrujillo341
@migueltrujillo341 2 жыл бұрын
And why do they laugh when they mention the goata guys I miss something?
@UrNotThatGuyPal
@UrNotThatGuyPal 2 жыл бұрын
I will never understand people paying MORE money to get LESS shoe lol........ wut?
@migueltrujillo341
@migueltrujillo341 2 жыл бұрын
Bc it’s good for my feet why spend 100 on air force ones with a narrow toe box and uncomfortable af or 150 on Jordan’s when I can spend 150 on vivos and improve my feet at the same time
@DontListenToMe69
@DontListenToMe69 2 жыл бұрын
How about some shoes that are under $150 😂 I’m want to try these out, but not for more than any shoe in my collection. How does a shoe with less r&d and materials behind it cost 3x?! Lmfao
@codyboy221
@codyboy221 2 жыл бұрын
Supply and demand
@anthonypicciano3803
@anthonypicciano3803 2 жыл бұрын
Look at xero. Under 100. Ben Patrick uses them
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