Medieval Misconceptions: the TRUE origin of the KNIFE SWORD - Messer

[@Agent719]

Dundee: That's not a knife, THIS is a knife. Shad, adjusting glasses: Excuse but...

[@Leo.23232]

He never said that, it’s ‘That’s a knife.’

[@Beardshire]

@@Leo.23232 Always looked like a big kitchen knife too me. Even has the same type of grip with a piece of metal sticking off the side for more hand protection. Why make it like that? I think it was cheaper.

[@Leo.23232]

Beardshire Are you talking about Dundee’s knife? It’s a bowie knife.

[@Beardshire]

@@Leo.23232 No, talking about the messer.

[@Leo.23232]

@@Beardshire In that case it was a bit of a random thing to bring up, but the nail was put there as it was a civilian weapon, and civilians don't wear armour or have shields, so the extra hand protection was very useful for duels and stuff. That's why as time went on hand protection improved, because swords were more optimized to a civilian unarmoured market. And no, I don't think adding more metal to the hilt made it cheaper.

[@juancholo7502]

Once again, an Australian shows us a large bladed weapon & tells us "THAT'S a Knife". (^_^)

[@lanasmith4795]

You can't beat the classics

[@inthefade]

It's a spoon

[@dzhellek]

@@inthefade there is no spoon. The movie references are piling up.

[@qtulhoo]

dzhellek This is getting out of hand. There are two of them now!

[@vorpalblades]

@@inthefade I see you've played knifey-spoony before...

[@Asha2820]

The two-handed knife only makes sense when you see how big the steaks were.

[@LogicalMayhem00]

The steaks have never been higher meme with cows on a weed plantation. 👌welcome to memes from the EU👌

[@veronkrahss482]

XD

[@ryanlorenzo5003]

Have you SEEN those pike formations? You know the Swiss travel in herds.

[@thedescendedangel]

Those are some monster hunter level steaks.

[@TheUnseenPath]

Tridents and pitchforks are the forks.

[@Crusader-tg1wx]

The man who said “Never bring a knife to a sword fight,” has clearly never heard of the Kriegsmesser.

[@PerSon-xg3zr]

I guess it was supposed to be "never bring a short to a long fight."

[@Sophia-vk5bq]

For cutting those extra thick sandwiches.

[@eliteteutonicknight1]

*EXTRA T H I C C!*

[@timothyissler3815]

Dagwood's knife, you mean.

[@germanvisitor2]

In medieval Germany, sandwich eats you.

[@Sophia-vk5bq]

@@germanvisitor2 In Soviet Russia, sandwich cuts messer. 😜

[@kamilwisniewski8261]

@@germanvisitor2 you know what medieval Germany didnt have?

[@codythompson8509]

His voice is perfect to just put in the background and listen while your doing something, I wish he would do a podcast???

[@SpaceWaterfall1]

So, is this a sword? **points at Messer** German knife guild: Well, yes, but actually no.

[@googleisacruelmistress1910]

Security guy: you can't bring a sword in here Me: this is a knife tho Security guy: (-_-) Me: no really check out the hilt Security guy: ... well ok then

[@RandoBox]

Exactly how AR pistols work.

[@karemare6426]

you guys think in a situation like this, the sharpness of the blade is taken into consideration? I mean, by the security staff. If not it's a huge problem, a blunt sword can't pass, but a dead sharp Kriegsmesser is OK :)

[@sik3xploit]

@@karemare6426 Just goes to show that no matter how many strides politicians will take to undermine us we will always have the means to kick it back in their face. That's why if they want to be the tyrant that they drool to be then they need to officially declare war on us instead of taking these weak baby steps.

[@tree_alone]

That's not a knife! ... no really that's not a knife.

[@googleisacruelmistress1910]

@@tree_alone Yes it is... no really it is a knife.. a super knife... yeah that sounds about right

[@maxmustermann9058]

"Nobody was allowed to carry arms." "Everyone was required to have a sword." It's like I am getting told a story by J.J Abrahams and Ryan Johnson !

[@manoz6194]

But I carry two arms with me always...

[@kyle18934]

​@manoz6194 you need to only have ONE at a time! remove one immediately!

[@lukediehl1210]

I'm gonna throw in my 2 cents as an amateur smith. The messer style construction is incredibly durable and very forgiving. The first long blade I ever made was a messer, and even though I had no idea what I was doing, it has held up to an insane level of abuse. That means that the messer style would have worked well for mass production by less skilled craftsmen, which would have reduced the price and made the weapons more accessible. That explains why the messer has a reputation as the common man's weapon.

[@SaltyRogue226]

Makes sense

[@jakubpawlowski396]

Spot on. Probably during war, and a shortage of blacksmiths, someone came to the idea, hey, what if the knife makers just make really big knifes for us?

[@MrZetor]

@Luke Diehl I agree. Also, in addition to the (relative) ease of making a full-tang handle, the heat treatment of a single-edged blade is a lot easier and a lot less critical than of a double-edged blade.

[@jakubpawlowski396]

@@MrZetor not to mention, the blade is less likely to snap at the guard, as they so often do...

[@MrZetor]

​@@jakubpawlowski396 This actually is one of my all-time 'favorite' pet peeves. I would never EVER make 90-degree angles b/w the (hidden) tang and the blade itself. Not even into a short knife, which obviously won't experience nearly as much bending and twisting force as a sword. An even more retarded practice is to extend the fuller all the way through the guard and into the (hidden) tang! See, for example, 'The Oslo Viking Sword' by Darksword Armory: www.darksword-armory.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/new-oslo-sword-1308-viking-bare-blade-full-tang-medieval-weapon-800x600.jpg This POS has the aforementioned 90-degree angles, which are _always_ a weak point, but also the unnecessarily extended fuller. There is no way this mass-produced object could withstand hard hitting, let alone twisting/bending forces! Anyway, even a hidden tang sword _can_ be made strong, but the tang/blade interface will look nothing like the Oslo thing, _AND_ the fitment of the guard must be "tight like a man's anus"...

[@danielmcbriel1192]

In my German textbooks on weaponsmithing the blade weapons are usually divided into two classes. 1. They have their origin in the dagger. Pointed front, straight blade and two cutting edges. The swords. 2. They have their origin in the knife. Curved blade and only sharpened on one side. The saber class. (War knife, saber, scimitar, falchions, katana ...)

[@deadmeme8973]

"swords were illegal" Vs "every man must own a sword" EXCUSE ME WHAT How does this happen? It's like people live in opposite land

[@scratchy996]

Because feuding city-states. You have a bunch of rival families, controlling small and often fragmented pieces of land. Tension was high, and it often lead to violent skirmishes. Having an armed militia 24h a day was a necessity.

[@olenickel66]

I guess it has to do with stereotypical views on the medieval era that were developed during and after the enlightenment era: that feudal rule was unabashed tyranny that had to clamp down with its knights on the commoners 24/7 lest they revolt. From this we get many cliched ideas about certain weapons being outlawed to prevent peasants from arming themselves, whereas the reality is more complex and not only would commoners often identify with and support the feudal system, but having a sizeable levy that has arms and can be called upon as militia was a useful asset for any lord and free city alike.

[@ccvcharger]

Switzerland actually does that now, but with guns.

[@augustovasconcellos7173]

@@ccvcharger Nah, that's Israel that you're probably thinking about. Switzerland lets you own all kinds of guns - even some you wouldn't be able to own in the US - and many people do own them, that is true, but you're neither required to nor allowed to own the ammunition for a majority of those guns (at least not without proper documentation). Israel, on the other hand, has compulsory military service for men and women, and trained soldiers who may be called into action are _required_ to be carrying their weapons at all times.

[@ParadoxISPower]

That is human resistance 101

[@mikeytheeaglescout]

I can't wait for that medieval sword law video. A D&D friend of mine and I are always arguing about that subject (he insists that it was illegal for commoners to own swords, I say otherwise). When that video comes out, I am immediately sending that link to him to settle this debate once and for all.

[@fenorlex1126]

Any responses?

[@5peciesunkn0wn]

I think people are getting *Japan* mixed up with Europe for some of this stuff. Japan outlawed swords for commoners once the Samurai and such got big in their power and relative peace happened. Europe...didn't really have relative peace during the medieval era lol.

[@Sleepless_Sam]

Ah the knife sword... A weapon almost as infamous as the long short spear.

[@czarus_the_sniper9924]

Hand and half axe

[@zeroblade6599]

And blunt edged weapons

[@supremeotaku5443]

Like the sniper pistols

[@NoobNoob-ss5hs]

True as it may but it will never be as controversial as the half tang pommels.

[@tigershark8867]

Blunt-tipped Estoc

[@zendikarisparkmage2938]

Get well soon, Shad! You hid your illness really well. Thanks for muscling through for us!

[@robfromjersey7899]

"That's not a knife, that's a sword." "No it's short enough, it's a knife." "It's a sword-knife." "No, it's a knife sword." "Screw it, I'm getting a halberd."

[@youtubeisdead1858]

"It's an axe hammer spear.'" "No, it's an axe-spear with a hammer." "It's a hammer and an axe with a spear on it." "No, it's a weapon of war with an axe and a hammer on it." "So I can't use it for lumbering or blacksmithing?" "Well yes, but actually no-" "Fine, then I'm bringing a gunknife. Happy?"

[@claptrap4084]

This is when the measuring tape was invented.....everybody carried around Messers to the point that guards had to be ready to measure blade lengths at a moments notice!

[@Ferelcapox7]

poleaxe..

[@ottersirotten4290]

the german name for that thing is "Kriegs Messer" means war knife

[@lau_taro0037]

This is me in Mordhau

[@XanderCottrell]

i like to refer to medieval Germany as "not quite Germany yet" :P

[@zvonimirtomac7896]

Why was the Knife Sword invented? To cut some really big bread, obviously.

[@MsWatismyname]

Welp, just after I made my own comment about buttering a bread I read yours.

[@pennyfarting]

FALSE. It was obviously made to cut giant vegetables. If it were for bread, it would be serrated.

[@MsWatismyname]

@@pennyfarting How did I miss that, this is it!

[@BRUXXUS]

Row boats don't use oars, those are just GIANT SPOONS from the spoon guild! 😁

[@DZ-1987]

*Read in posh-English accent* I do believe the "Big bread" you speak of is the French *Posh laughter* Almost forgot to say, but do imagine that with the monocle.

[@hundwyn7530]

The closed captioning says you're chad, high praise from impartial tech

[@Torthrodhel]

Guild enforcer: "I like your enthusiasm, but we can't just make swords. We're the knife guild. Just concentrate on honing your craft. Make a great knife." Pyramid Head: "Hmm..."

[@Gr3nadgr3gory]

Grossemesser!

[@donna30044]

Jane Ross Knife makers are always honing their skills; it gives them an edge. Gotta stay sharp to keep up with competition.

[@MrDibara]

Jane Ross *D--... Did you **_have_** to go there?* T__T

[@Torthrodhel]

​@@MrDibara What else was I gonna do, just sit there and eat pizza?

[@MrDibara]

@@Torthrodhel _It would've been an option,_ YES. XD

[@TheTurtlePenguin]

I too have been promoting this myth of messers being the circumvention to the problem of it being illegal for lower classes to carry swords - Shad, thank you for educating me 🙏 I have now addressed my friends with the correction and admitted I were wrong. Thanks to you I have learned to do that without losing my self-esteem. It's great to be corrected, because then you can learn something new!

[@НилИванов-ж1ц]

So, the knife guilds invented messers to avood copyright infringement

[@gustavmeyrink_2.0]

No. It is merely a language issue. The German word 'Schwert' (loosely translated as sword) describes specifically a double-edged, straight-bladed weapon. If it is not double-edged it is either a Säbel (sabre) or a Messer (Knife).

[@w415800]

Wait, I thought it was to infringe upon the rights of the swordsmiths?

[@peterraab3411]

Assualt Knives with High capacity edges.

[@FF3LockeZ]

"Why was this really stupid looking weapon invented?" "To get around some union laws and allow the knifesmiths to make a higher profit margin." Human nature never changes, does it?

[@kingmasterlord]

We don't like being told what to do, so we do what we want even when we're told not to. Yep, human nature.

[@AnimeFan9833]

How dare you slander Kriegsmesser like that two years ago, they're beautiful!

[@chuck9246]

@@AnimeFan9833 dude, holy shit i was about to revive this dead comment to say the same thing lol. Beautiful blade.

[@lancepage1914]

@@chuck9246 100% its a beautiful weapon.

[@DZ-1987]

I demand a more in depth video on Medieval Guilds.

[@trevorh6438]

Yes please.

[@FunkyPertwee]

Shad: "No one would define knife or sword by hilt construction!" Also Shad: "Knife and sword guilds defined knives and swords by their hilt construction."

[@awesomeblader45]

*Legally, it was more like a gentleman's agreement that hilt construction allowed knife makers to create swords as length would start to get arbitrary.

[@Thraim.]

How do you know it's a knife? Well, the knife-maker sold it to me... Sounds reasonable.

[@aquamarinerose5405]

would like, but 69 likes

[@Thraim.]

I appreciate the sentiment.

[@zealotguy]

@@erojerisiz1571 knife-bed! 😤

[@gustavmeyrink_2.0]

It is quite simple: In German technical terms bladed weapons fall into one of two main categories: Schwerter & Dolche (swords and daggers) or Messer & Säbel (knives and sabres).

[@voci4202]

In a nutshell: "You can't have swords of this length!" *Makes a big knife* "That... does that count?" *Makes it bigger and bigger* "Hold on, now, you ruffian, tha-" *Sword guilds and knife guilds teaming up and making every variant as much as possible to get a giggle out of it.* "I give up..."

[@ottovonbismarck5067]

The "Kriegsmesser" saw it's widest use around 1500. The term "Deutschland" - in the form of the respective German from that time - was already used in the 14th century and became widely used in the 15th century. A state of "Deutschland" certainly didn't exist, but the term itself actually refers to the land (Land) where people speak German (Deutsch) and as such was, as you can see, used before the Kriegsmesser was even widely used. So saying that it was popular in Germany, as the translation of Deutschland, is completely accurate even if we take into account the term people used back then. Because when talking about things that were general true across the German states, they did indeed use sentences along the lines of "In Deutschland XY."

[@DZ-1987]

Doucheland. ~My friend 2019.

[@DZ-1987]

We're still rivals. He said that 2 weeks ago.

[@richardaubrecht2822]

Alse, there was a German Kindom, one of the three parts of the Holy Roman Empire besides Italian Kingdom and Burgundy. After the 12th century it was gradually replaced by the title of Roman king.

[@ohauss]

@@richardaubrecht2822 For the period at issue. Burgundy wasn't much of an issue. The Kingdom of Arles which consisted of former Burgundian possessions had long been fragmented at the time and what was called Burgundy at the time was a Duchy, mostly under French influence but situated strategically so as to be able to ride the fence on occasion and support one side today, the other tomorrow, or achieve a certain level of independence simply through the threat of supporting the other side if one was to bring its foot down too hard.

[@richardaubrecht2822]

@@ohauss I know. I was talking about the time before the 12th century. When the King of Italy was a real thing, Lombards were still Langobards. Our emperor Charles IV was also King of Arles, but at the time it was just a title without any real power and he killed that title anyway.

[@pattthepriest]

"That's not a knife that's a spoon" "Ah I've seen you've played knife spoony before"

[@silent_stalker3687]

‘The true origin of the knife sword’ Aka: the little sword that could.

[@zacktoor1591]

"I think I cut. I think I cut."

[@EmeraldEyesEsoteric]

"excuse me," said the knife sword. "I'm a little knife that could... and my owner is a girl with big feet who insists she is a size 6."

[@nopeno2350]

Very happy for you hope this leads to more meet and greets

[@joshuakusuma5953]

Exploiting a legal loophole to get customers from the other guys? Capitalism at its finest!

[@j.h-j5j]

Sounds very American!

[@thelvadam2884]

if iam not mistaken the USA wasnt even a thing back then... wich again just shows they are nothing but the crazy side of Europeans 😄

[@QwertyBoredom122]

@@thelvadam2884 Americans are just 1700's Brits on steroids.

[@KairuHakubi]

i'll take the guild system anyday over modern unions or government meddling ;) not to mention insurance, (including health care) another thing guilds and lodges did better

[@Jsand714]

Jose Hernandez Martinez fuck socialism

[@ChristianThePagan]

Finally somebody got this right. One nitpick though, the langes messer and kriegsmesser were not just falchions which is a very common modern misconception about these things. There is a fantastic flora of blade types for this weapon, particularly the one handed langes messer. You could get them with falchion machete like blades, curved sabre like blades and what were basically completely conventional straight sword blades.

[@ronin47-ThorstenFrank]

Seeing the title of the video, charging hate device, ready for flame war, watching video, discharging hate device.... Good researched and excellently explained. And I got a new book to read. Greetings from Germany.

[@SkippertheBart]

That Mick Dundee picture in context made me laugh long and loud. Excellent choice.

[@ChrisM243]

As a viewer from Germany: pretty good pronunciation (besides the word "Nagel". :)

[@carschte0282]

I was still floored from "groß Messer", german grammar is the best, not.

[@graceswan4353]

carschte 0 But isn’t that just.. “big knife-sword-thingy”? that’s the same as English grammar right?

[@carschte0282]

Grace Swan no, not at all. If groß is a adjective, then it should be großes Messer, but Großmesser is fine, because it‘s one word (at least that is what it should be in german) like Langschwert (the german version of longsword).

[@mbnhiphopmusik6429]

@@carschte0282 also German and I have come across the terms "Großmesser" and "Kriegsmesser".

[@carschte0282]

MBNHipHopMusik I know that Großmesser is correct but I was heavily confused for a few minutes as I heard it

[@williamweissner6379]

ever since I started watching this channel the Messer has become a favorite of mine thanks Shad

[@DatAsianPlays]

This is like having an AR15 "pistol". It's not a short barreled rifle because it doesn't have a stock, it has a brace

[@thesmallestminorityisthein4045]

ATF, seeing that the owner of a 12" AR also has a dog: we got him. Also ATF, seeing that the AR has a brace: _Mission failed, we'll get him next time_

[@Kayem237]

@@thesmallestminorityisthein4045 2023, Next time is here.

[@lucasallen5349]

I can't help but be distracted by the full set of WoT right under where you are trying to keep my attention. Been watching your content for years and you've officially earned my subscription and convinced me to read your book I keep hearing about. Keep up the amazing work!

[@vane909090]

I'd love to meet you IRL, Shad. If only Australia wasn't on a different planet.

[@KickyFut]

Borderlands:Pre-Sequel?

[@mgk2020]

I lol'd

[@enjibkk6850]

Definately a different planet. The sun even moves differently over there.

[@KickyFut]

Don't forget, different stars in the sky too!

[@mosesa.weaver3058]

Always down for spending quality time with my favorite Aussie!

[@Tauntaun707]

The argument in shockingly similar to the myth. It's just that the craftsmen are pushing the semantics rather than the consumers. Could be where the myth stems from, someone just got one group mixed up with the other.

[@Llortnerof]

Just look at patent and copyright issues. That kind of beancounting sounds a lot more believable.

[@ottersirotten4290]

reminds me of the 20mm armour piercing "hunting rifles" produced in the weimar republic

[@gustavmeyrink_2.0]

The truth is German technical terms. Bladed weapons are split into two main groups: Schwerter & Dolche (swords and daggers) and Messer & Säbel (knives and sabres). So in German a sabre is simply NOT a type of sword and neither are Kriegsmesser. Schwerter are typically straight and double-edged. If a weapon is not double-edged it is NOT a Schwert (sword) in German.

[@ambuknight]

It's so sad I can't meet professor Shadiversity 😭🥺😭. "Get well professor"

[@bioforce5]

As an American, that myth honestly sounds very believable. There's quite a few workarounds for firearm laws that are rather similar to that concept. For example, in the U.S. shotguns with barrels shorter than 18.5 inches are highly restricted, and in some states are flat out illegal. However, if you have a "pistol" designed to shoot .45 Colt that just so happens to have a chamber long enough to fit .410 shot shells, you can legally load it up with shotgun shells and call it a pistol. Similarly, if the weapon is designed to shoot shot shells from the get go, say 12 gauge shells, but it was designed in a manner that meets the legal criteria of a pistol, it is considered neither a shotgun nor a pistol and is instead an "Any Other Weapon." AOW's are still more restricted than "normal" firearms, but are legal in more states and don't require as large of a fee to be paid to the government to register to own them. Other weirdness gets introduced when you look at the laws of specific states. In Pennsylvania, for example, it is illegal to conceal a rifle or shotgun. You can technically carry them openly, though the police will hassle you about it and probably charge you with disturbing the peace, but having one hidden is illegal even if you have a concealed carry license. This is due to PA's carry licenses specifying that they permit you to conceal a "firearm" and PA does not recognize rifles or shotguns as "firearms" under legal terminology. However, "Short Barreled Rifles" and "Short Barreled Shotguns" ARE considered firearms and CAN be legally concealed if you have a concealed carry permit and have registered the weapon as short barreled. This means that in PA you can circumvent the law which prevents you from carrying concealed rifles or shotguns by registering your firearm as a MORE restricted classification and cutting its barrel short. So, while the myth may not be true, I don't think you should laugh the idea off so quickly. While it may "logically" be an illegal weapon, the law itself is not always so clean cut and "logical."

[@Nicitel94]

Oi, you cheeky buggar, you got a loicense for that knife sword?

[@draketungsten74]

Knoife sword :)

[@samuelevans738]

Argh! Want to join in, but don't know how to do the fake accent!😭😖 eh, wot?

[@ClemensGleich]

Yes, this is the most reasonable theory at the moment. It also has a logical direction: In most legal entities (like the big cities like Nuremberg) German peoples were required to own weapons, because they had to do watch and war duty. So there was a very large and lucrative market for weapons, including swords. The knife-maker guilds wanted in on this and produced swords that followed the definitions of a knife, only bigger. One of the main points was: a single edge instead of two edges. With these products, they aimed at the lower-priced end of the market, targeting normal citizens and later professional soldiers (Landsknechte) with simple, sturdy, no-nonsense, single-edged cutting swords. Greetings from the Land of your Dreams (in Germany, we have roundabout 25.000 real castles)

[@gammafighter]

Leave it to an Aussie to make this video. Should have titled the video "That's not a knife!"

[@dcsobral]

I believe the question on knife length was finally settled on the movie Crocodile Dundee.

[@thisguyplaying5803]

enemey: HA I HAVE A SWORD WHAT DO YOU HAVE? me: I HAVE A KNIFE-SWORD enemey: wait.... so its just a swo- me: A KNIFE-SWORD enemey: but a sword is literally a knife but bigger and lon- me: HA NOPE.

[@WindyREDPanda]

I think the word ya looking for is "Enemy"

[@thisguyplaying5803]

im sorry but in too lazy to edit it all XDXDXD

[@WindyREDPanda]

@@thisguyplaying5803 but your not too fucking lazy to respond to me. Fix your shit.

[@MM-qk9wx]

"It's a KNIFE, there are minor yet technical differences which constitu-" *is stabbed*

[@thisguyplaying5803]

@@WindyREDPanda is it necessary to swear in this situation or to be mad at all?

[@FunkAndFluff]

3:41 "I wanna focus on the sword right now" might be the most Shad thing I've ever heard.

[@Evanski]

Knife? Or Sword? *Both.* Both is good.

[@vanderwallstronghold8905]

Knife? Or sword? Yes.

[@Cowgirlcadet]

Now you must make a meme with Tulio and Miguel holding these instead of their rapiers.

[@emiliomedina1920]

Mate, I started watching your videos just a few months ago, I've been going from playlist to playlist, you've got some amazing content! I started with the fantasy re-armed, and creative writing. Thank you for all the content!

[@eggmynog]

Look up AR15 pistols and pistol braces... Trust me, the "letter of the law" sometimes dictates how and what people will circumvent. "No, that's a pistol you idiot" ;) Love the content, keep up the good work

[@Carewolf]

Yeah, but that is modern day America. No real country operates like that ;)

[@ottersirotten4290]

germany produced during the weimar republic time 20mm armour piercing "hunting rifles"

[@jalpat2272]

@@ottersirotten4290 ja, sie for metal beast.

[@A-G-F-]

@@ottersirotten4290 Well, what if you wanna hunt a Wyvern?

[@Zalgardis]

*looks at title. Thinks back to when I was in Germany. Delighted squeals when the information in the museums comes back to mind accurately after several years*

[@nixiepixie5694]

You covered this so well. Very informative and I enjoyed it immensely. I look forward to a video covering the Roman Empire.

[@matthewsteele5229]

What I find interesting is the Nagal (nail) that survived the guild transition. Bauernwahr (hunting knives) had no cross at all but instead had a flattened nail that acted as a hand stop. In the crossover onto langesmesser hilts, it survived to act as a third quillon, and makes up the defining techniques of messer fencing of masters like Talhoffer and Lekuchner. It SEEMS to be the first iteration of a more complex hilt than the traditional cross guard. 16th century dussacks/tessacks/ Sinclair-hilt Sabres keep this feature while adding knuckle protection or a swept hilt. Also, contemporary longswords began featuring ring hilts, symmetrical and asymmetrical, where the Nagal is replaced with a strong D shaped ring connecting the quillons. A few later messers, 15th-16th century finds, have a knuckle bow in the form of a 90° downward extension of the front facing quillon. Dussack trainers made of wood and leather copy this as a D shaped knuckle guard over an otherwise featureless hilt. These were used as stand-ins for various one handed swords during tutorship and at fechtshule tournaments. .. also, Meyer gang all the way.

[@Zorisura]

Get well soon Shad this was a very interesting video tbh the things about guilds.

[@monanagel6616]

Had to watch this after spending my weekend at a medieval camp with lots of sword enthusiasts around me and falling in love with the Messer.

[@prophetisaiah08]

Here's a theory: If the ownership of a sword was mandatory for even commoners in most of the Holy Roman Empire, perhaps the sword-makers guilds partnered with the knife-makers guilds to increase production of affordable swords to meet the demand created by these legal requirements. They may have even been mandated by the government to do so to give the common folk the means to meet the legal requirement. Think about it. If ownership of a car was required by law for all adult citizens, don't you think that the auto companies would be scrambling for factory partners to build the cheapest cars that meet the standard to sell to the MILLIONS of people who are now required to own one? (I know the example is a bit far-fetched, but it's the best my limited intelect could come up with on the spot.)

[@scratchy996]

The sword makers had the best lobbyists ever ! edit : OK maybe the bread lobbyists were better, they managed to include their product in the Lord's Prayer...

[@stianberg5645]

That also makes it possible for the sword makers to retain a "premium stamp". Perhaps you are right, that the guild was sort of pressured to meet the demand, but didn't want to sell swords at a lower price. Interesting thought

[@Oxissistic]

To build on both of these ideas, it also makes sense from a time perspective. if you are making premium swords and have to stop to fill 100 orders for cheaper low(er) quality blades to sell to the common man that means you can make less high end stuff. Punching out some blanks for the Knife guys to finish fits that middle ground to meet the masses needs while leaving more time for the super awesome long swords to be produced.

[@TheRobotsWillEatYou]

this theory of yours makes most sense and perhaps, (to extend this further), the shorter bladed messer was cheaper than the longer ones to further be more economically viable for the masses.

[@steevemartial4084]

I'm definitely interested in more videos about the Holy Roman Empire! Between gothic armour and messers, they had some of the best looking gear in the late XVth century.

[@edi9892]

The funny thing: Kriegsmesser look quite a bit like a Katana and the Katana has a similar hilt construction and its name could be translated as knife too! As a side-note: There were at least four smithing guilds: blacksmith (e.g. barrel-bands; nails and horseshoes, possibly also axeheads); knifesmith (possibly also spearheads); swordsmith (possibly also halberds) and the armourer. What really separated them originally was their ability to work with steel. You can make a nail from crappy iron using a crappy forge, but a breastplate, longsword or rapier require way more. However, over time the iron-processing became better and so did the forges, which allowed knifesmiths to make sword-length blades cheaply compared to previous swordmakers. The prices for swords and armour dropped (old iron being recycled rather than new one mined; cheaper production techniques while increased quality) and the guilds tried to control the markets...

[@matteussilvestre8583]

Now *this* is a knife!

[@kriegkorpsman402]

You call this a knife? *shows long bayonet* THIS is a knife.

[@chalichaligha3234]

Thank you Shad, and I wish you a swift recovery.

[@Robo2k_]

How the- A sword is a long knife I am many confusions -|===> A sword -|=> A knife

[@silent_stalker3687]

RoboMage 2000 -|=< Eye poker!

[@Nethan2000]

What's the difference between a knife and a dagger then?

[@Nerobyrne]

-|=====> A KNOIFE!

[@smileywarhead5178]

-|==> ???

[@isaacsaunders6860]

Smiley Warhead short sword

[@dockbabington422]

Before I watched this, I would've thought it had something to do with the sumptuary laws at the time. Thank you for clearing this up a bit.

[@portsouth]

You: knife sword Me, an intellectual: knord

[@draketungsten74]

I like the sound of swife.

[@NevisYsbryd]

Nords with knords

[@ronanvankessel6329]

Skyrim belongs to the Knords

[@ryanbolin1858]

I choose to pronounce this with the k not being silent.

[@arnekrug939]

You: knife sword Me, an intellectual: Messer

[@alexccsm]

Get well soon bro, love your videos keep them coming.

[@Azdaja13]

"That's not a noif. _This_ is a noif." - Sniper made the Messer, confirmed and irrefutable! Also, get well soon! :D

[@austinbrightwell2405]

Is that Sir Radzig's sword from Kingdom Come Deliverance? 1:04

[@skjelm6363]

I always enjoy your videos. Thank you and keep going! Guilds... yeah here in Germany we were always great to organize and in bureaucracy. And we are good in tell others what to do and correcting others, so: Your German sounds good! Except "Nagel", the "g" was pronounced well, but the "a" is more like in "Nah!" or in "castle" Here you are, I am from the smartypants-guild... sorry, can't help it. Greetings from cologne!

[@thehackingburger3002]

Thanks for this, Shad! My main character in a series I'm writing is going to have a messer, probably a two-handed, so I'm trying to find out all I can. I have watched your dedicated series, but it seems my messer thirst is unquenchable! Oh, and get well soon! ^_^

[@arx3516]

Wonderful! A medieval event with historically accurate kangaroos, koalas and summers in december!

[@scratchy996]

@Edohiguma people think Kung Fu pandas are dangerous , until they meet the Octagon koalas.

[@nealsterling8151]

Get well soon @Shad! A Video about late medieval Germany? That would be amazing!! Maybe you could do a series about it? (Or Maybe you could take a closer look at a specific city, like Freiburg or even the city of Bretten for example.)

[@mckenzielannigan4305]

Skall's favorite way to end them rightly

[@Harshhaze]

Can't disconnect the pommel, so you just throw the whole damn sword[knife]

[@viralthoughts6278]

I love SHADIVERSITY! I discovered this channel only a few months ago! I wish I could go to the festival! His channel has inspired me to start my own channel with his movie reviews.

[@thatsteampunkguy6528]

I wanna take this moment to announce something .... MACHICULATIONS!

[@BrightonsPriest]

The Steampunk Gamer what about DRAGONS!

[@thatsteampunkguy6528]

@@BrightonsPriest dropped my pommel and they became extinct sadly. Why do you not see them nowadays.

[@coltonaallen]

Aye!

[@GreySativa]

😂😃 And now I'm dead.😂🤣

[@nasserfirelordarts6574]

How dare you!!!! You misspelled it, Machicolations *NOT MACHICULATIONS* "O"

[@marshalmarshall2109]

Reach into the enemy for raspberry jam...WITH YOUR BRAND NEW KNIFE SWORD!

[@gabrielpottebaum5249]

Any morning I wake up to a video about Messers is a morning worth waking up! Thanks Shad!

[@markus4732]

As a German im pleasantly surprised how well you pronounced those words! 👏

[@darknessml6145]

"We liked knife so we made more knife" Trust me my dad works at the Nintendo Kingdom

[@zetsumeinaito]

I like a lot of the Messer designs. I always found single edged swords to have interesting and often elegant curves.

[@wilagaton9627]

SWORDS!! I mean KNIFE SWORD!! But isn't a sword technically a long knife? But if that is. . . Then it means. . . SWORDCEPTION!!

[@KeacePeeper]

You mean Messer

[@TheArcSet]

Thanks for a very informative and interesting video. Also, I see you proudly displaying an entire wheel of time set :).

[@gabrielwunderlich505]

Get well soon! And thanks for all your great work. Being from Germany, it’s nice to hear some historical information, delivered by my favorite Australian. 😊

[@Valenspire]

Where did I hear this misconception, I didn't buy into it cause it sounded a bit off, but I do remember hearing that story.

[@TheBreuster]

Lindybeige, perhaps. It's where I picked it up, at least.

[@Leubast]

1:02 That is the exact sword I want from Calimacil. The Kingdom Come: Deliverance Sir Radzig sword.

[@s.gilbertdyer8683]

Get Well, Shad! Thanks for doing this video despite not feeling well.

[@Agent719]

Also, from the Netflix Castlevania: "Your long knife against my short sword."

[@Mundiz_]

Love your videos Shad, thanks for the info!

[@steevemartial4084]

I'm impressed that you would give free Calimacil swords. They are probably the best foam swords out there.

[@danielthompson6207]

Get well soon, Shad, and thank you for all the great content!!

[@Leubast]

Now I'm going to make a city(ies) that outlaw swords and have one character come in with a messer and have that same argument with a town guard and get throw in the dungeon.

[@samuelevans738]

So much lol 😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂😂😂🤣😂🤣

[@Tennouseijin]

One thing I find quite interesting about guilds is how they often had associated towers or sections of the city walls they were responsible for, especially in case of siege. So there would be a 'carpenters tower', 'shoemakers tower', and so on.

[@wanderingshade8383]

SHAD'S SICK!!!?!!1?!! NOOOOOOOO Soon well get!! Wait...

[@SpudsMcGeese]

Was watching the katana misconceptions video and thought "I wonder if you have anything on Messers?" I think KZbin can read minds because this was the recommended video.

[@ticonofruger573]

10:04 Woah! That's not Shad writing there. Is that your wife? Has she always made these? Go Shadswife! And get better soon Shad :)

[@goldsmitharmorer3111]

Get well soon man. You're awesome!

[@cebenify]

Holy Roman Empire= Holy Hot mess. Also machiciolations!

[@LogicalMayhem00]

Not holy not Roman and not actually an Empire😉😆

[@samuelevans738]

@@LogicalMayhem00 yup. Not even the Vatican. Btw, watch overly sarcastic productions' Pope fights episodes. Really good! 😸😹

[@arx3516]

But it did spawn the renaissance, after the battle of Legnano the north italian communes were de facto independent , without having to give taxes and men to the empire their economies flourished and the renaissance became possible.

[@ACarpenter89]

Would love to meet you and your brother Jazza someday just to thank you both in person for helping me come up with hobbies that help me stay sober through your videos. Got to save money to get to Australia someday, always wanted to visit .

[@bizarreworld2510]

Take care of yourself man!! Get well soon!! The video was great as always!!